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fadam
20-10-2007, 05:41
So my last attempt at creating a balanced list was apparently anything but and would've scored awfully for comp. Here's my latest attempt at creating a list that's both competitive and balanced.

Granted, yes the majority of the list is mounted, but the list also has several weaknesses (namely to shooting and magic) that I feel balance things out. It also has a wide variety of units complete with a very diverse item selection (I think there's only a few units in the book that I actually leave out. Questing Knights and the peasant footsloggers), so it's not a list of min/maxing. Also I have a damsel on foot, and how often do you see that


1 Bretonnian Lord on Barded Warhorse = 252 Pts
General/Heavy Armour/Shield/Grail Vow
Gromril Great Helm
Heartwood Lance
Virtue of Confidence

1 Paladin Battle Standard Bearer = 145 Pts
Wyrmlance/Heavy Armour/Battle Standard Bearer/Grail Vow
Virtue of Duty

1 Damsel of the Lady on Warhorse = 105 Pts
Magic Level 1
Dispel Scroll

1 Damsel of the Lady = 120 Pts
Magic Level 1
Dispel Scroll
Dispel Scroll

9 Knights Errant = 221 Pts
Lance/Heavy Armour/Shield/Full command/Barding/Knight’s Vow
Errantry Banner

9 Knights Errant = 226 Pts
Lance/Heavy Armour/Shield/Full command/Barding/Knight’s Vow
Twilight Banner

8 Knights of the Realm = 216 Pts
Lance/Heavy Armour/Shield/Full command/Barding/Knight’s Vow
Banner of Chalons

8 Knights of the Realm = 216 Pts
Lance/Heavy Armour/Shield/Full command/Barding/Knight’s Vow

8 Knights of the Realm = 216 Pts
Lance/Heavy Armour/Shield/Full command/Barding/Knight’s Vow

3 Pegasus Knights = 165 Pts
Lance/Heavy Armour/Shield/Champion/Knightly Vow

5 Mounted Yeomen = 80 Pts
Spears/Shields/Bow

6 Grail Knights = 288pts
Lance/Hand Weapon/Heavy Armour/Shield/Full Command
Living Saints/Grail Vow
Banner of Defense

TOTAL=2250 PTS
TOTAL MODELS=60

happy_doctor
20-10-2007, 11:39
OK, I'm going to honest with you...
6 Brettonian Lances, 3 dispel scrolls and a unit of Pegasi don't constitute a friendly list; it's foot-sloggers and questing knights that do... The list is NOT weak against magic (3 dispel scrolls can handle the storm until the 2nd turn charge..) or shooting (I noticed the banner of chalons, banner of defense, flyers and fast cavalry)..
Don't get me wrong, the list is just fine, and will be challenging to play against, but when your mate brings his fluffy no-artillery foot-slogging empire to battle (which is, in fact, a friedly list) , he won't expect something like this...

Have you tried incorporating a peasant task-force in your lists? (maybe a trebuchet, one or two units of men-at-arms and some bowmen...)

fadam
20-10-2007, 15:43
Maybe it's just me, but I think Bretonnians have the hardest time balancing out comp scores and army effectiveness.

Look at your typical M@A, terrible statline so to be effective you need to field them in units of like 40+, which when compared to say a Knights of Bretonnia box of 8 knights, it's hardly economic.

I've never seen anyone hate on Empire for preferring to take Swordsmen over Halberders, or on Orcs for bypassing Arrerboys in favor of other units. Some armies just have units that are there exclusively for the fluff and in actual practical combat experience they fall short, and unfortunately it seems that anything that's not on a horse on the Bret list not only matches this criteria, but they're rather expensive too. I've heard good things about Bowmen, but I can't see anyway they'd fit practically into my army.

I dunno. I just don't see how a Unit of slow and weak peasants could fit in with my fast shocktroops army.

druchii
21-10-2007, 07:48
I dunno. I just don't see how a Unit of slow and weak peasants could fit in with my fast shocktroops army.


They can, just not well. And that is the inherent flaw of a Bretonnian army, in addition to "toning the army down", you actually have to take units that are actually quite terrible.

Your army is anything but friendly.

If you wanted to make it more "friendly" You could grab a trebuchet, and a few units of archers. I actually reccomend a unit of skirmishing bowmen to deal with opposing fast cavalry and other things that aren't worth charging with your knights.

d

Be Afraid
21-10-2007, 08:43
lol, why should you perposely take week units !?

the general idea of a fluffy army, is too have fluff, then base a list on it, not too try and take units you know wont work in your list so you wont feel so bad about beating an opponent.

Makarion
21-10-2007, 09:48
If you want to stay away from the noticeably weak troops, you could stick with a unit of Grail Reliquae (with extra pilgrims) and 2 units of Yeomen. That should help your score a bit. As it stands, your list is bog standard Bretonnnian stuff. Not the worst cheese, but you'd get a below-average rating for sure on composition.

happy_doctor
21-10-2007, 13:09
Balanced brettonian armies can workbut need more planning ahead than the no-brainer all-cavalry army (where combined frontal charges will win you the battle).
Take a look at the following list (which is considered friendly, but has in fact done quite well against experienced players):

-Brettonian Lord, Grail Vow, Tress of Isoulde, Virtue of Knightly Temper, Cuirass of fortune, Shield, Lance (248)
-Paladin, BSB, virtue of Duty, Sword of Might (124)
-Damsel of the Lady, mounted, lvl2, Silver Mirror (155)
-Damsel of the Lady, mounted, lvl2, Potion Sacre (125)

-8 Knights of the Realm, full command, War Banner (241)
-8 Knights Errant, full command, Conqueror's Tapestry (206)
-24 Men-at-arms, standard, musician (135)
-24 Men-at-arms, standard, musician (135)
-10 Peasant bowmen, braziers (65)
-10 Peasant bowmen skirmishers (70)

-5 Mounted Yeomen, shield, musician, standard (101)
-5 Mounted Yeomen, shield, musician, standard (101)
-7 Questing Knights, full command, Valorous Standard (273)
-Grail Reliquae, 13 pilgrims (181)

-Field Trebuchet (90)

Men at arms have the bonus of not giving up their standard, so it's worth buying one for every single unit you've got, especially mounted yeomen!
Agreed, peasants won't win you many battles, but they have their uses (table quarters, diverting charges and adding numbers/flank charging to support your knights).
Grail Reliquae make an excellent tar-pit, especially if the BSB is close-by.
Mounted yeomen can neutralize enemy shooting effectively, while the trebuchet can give enemy monsters and heavy infantry a headache.
Instead of taking a dispel scroll, it's fluffier to take the silver mirror (and more effective, as it's essentially a mage-killer: just target any mage already sporting a wound from a previous miscast, and you've taken care of your magic problem).
Questing Knights are the only type of knights who can hold their own after the charge, even more so if they are accompanied by the BSB. Don't underestimate them, they have S5 and are practiaclly immune to psychology!
You still have 3 lances(instead of 6) and more fast cavalry to compensate for the loss of pegasus knights. What's more, you can participate in all the phases (mediocre magic and shooting), while retaining the edge in close combat.

Getting used to men-at-arms can take some time, but ultimately this type of list can be effective and friendlier...

Finnigan2004
21-10-2007, 14:41
Don't take this the wrong way Fadam, but I would be annoyed if I was told that someone was bringing a friendly list and showed up with that. There are actually no real weaknesses in the list. Two scroll caddies should be able to deal with most enemy magic, and shooting tends to bounce off of Brettonian knights. If I saw that list, I'd run home before the game and come back with: 30 ASF swordmasters to stand at the bottom of a hill and protect four dogs of war cannons, four high elf mages, reaver knights, and a couple units of archers.

I will say though, if this is a list that you like-- use it. Just make sure that your opponents are aware of the fact that you are bringing a very tough army because it's no fun bringing a knife to a gun fight. If you are looking at a tournament, you need to be aware of the fact that you will get absolutely hammered for comp because you are only taking the strongest elements of the list. I would recommend playing in a non comp environment, if you like that.

If you do intend to use your Brets in a comped tournament and would like to win, you will have to include some of the more balanced elements. I've seen balanced Bret lists with archers and trebuchets that worked quite nicely, if you go this route. I've also seen a grail reliquay that was fairly effective. The peasants would be good because otherwise some scouts will shoot your sorceress on turn one. Either way, just make sure your opponent knows what you are bringing, so that you both have a fun game.

P.S.: I have to admit that I would not take questing knights-- even in a friendly game ;). Use some of the best stuff, just mix in the balanced elements. The problem with Brettonians is that GW wanted them to have the best cavalry, so they made them too cheap. What it appears that they did not anticipate was that some people would go all cavalry because it is extremely effective.

AllTheWayUlthwe
23-10-2007, 18:19
I too play the Brets. I got into them due to the my recent, at the time, of getting into WHFB and I loved the idea of the mounted cavalry and Knights and all that stuff. It wasn't until I had a few games under my belt that I realized that an all mounted army is just too harsh. To keep friends playing me I had to add loads of peasants. To that end I only ever take 3 to 4 lances only in all of my Bret armies. the rest belong to Peasants and the Graile Relaque. I love taking 1 to 2 big blocks of Men at Arms fully kitted out and numbering @ 25. I also take a Trebuchet and at lest 3 to 4 units of archers. Also, I try to stay away from ANY magic as I already have the BLESSING and taking one or two damsels just screw with trying to make a fair list.

Try to look at it from your opponents Point Of View. We all show up to games wanting to move our nicely painted Minis around the table. We also like hitting other units and killing a FEW of the opponents models. If we do this we say we had a FUN game. When we do not get to do these things and we don't get to kill any other models we think that entire game was bad and a waste of time. I know you are taking this army to a Tourney and you want to win, WE ALL DO. However, at a Tourney you must also bring a list that will let your opponent move and have fun too. It is a very delicate balancing act. You want to win your games, but you also want your opponent to have fun. Your current list, the one at the start of this thread will not allow your opponent to have much fun.

Now if you don't have any peasants painted up then I don't know how you can make this a "Friendly" list.

I guess when it comes to Bret armies that will not leave a bad taste in anyones mouth is simple, More peasants = more fun and balanced Bret armies.

Kahadras
23-10-2007, 21:47
So my last attempt at creating a balanced list was apparently anything but and would've scored awfully for comp. Here's my latest attempt at creating a list that's both competitive and balanced.

Granted, yes the majority of the list is mounted, but the list also has several weaknesses (namely to shooting and magic) that I feel balance things out. It also has a wide variety of units complete with a very diverse item selection (I think there's only a few units in the book that I actually leave out. Questing Knights and the peasant footsloggers), so it's not a list of min/maxing. Also I have a damsel on foot, and how often do you see that


I'm sorry but the list really fails to provide what you've set out to achieve. There is no 'weakness' to magic thanks to the amount of dispel scrolls and dispel dice your army is carting around. Even to say you have a weakness to shooting is pushing it a bit for an army that can be in combat by turn two and the majority of which boasts a 2+ armour save and a ward save.

On the whole not min/maxing thing I note that you've left out virutaly every 'mediocre' choice the list offers (Questing knights, men at arms, archers and trebuchet) in favour of the 'good' ones (KotR, Knights Errant, Grail Knights and Pegasus knights)


why should you perposely take week units !?

the general idea of a fluffy army, is too have Fluff, then base a list on it, not too try and take units you know wont work in your list so you wont feel so bad about beating an opponent.

But the OP isn't looking for a fluffy army he's looking for a friendly army. An all knight Bretonnian army is fluffy but it isn't that friendly. Similarly taking an Empire gunline isn't friendly but the player can say it's a Nuln artillery train and still be 'fluffy'.

Kahadras