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mav1971
21-10-2007, 02:50
Not that I have every rule memorized, but a few times knowing the other players rules for his army has been helpful.

Example 1: I was playing a High Elf player who thought his Silver Helms could charge 18" when I pointed out they don't have Ithilmar barding thus he was short and it was a failed charge. And I was able to charge them next turn.

Example 2: Back in the old rules when you could fly high I went to attack Louen Leoncoeur the king of Bretonnia's hippogriff he tried to say that the king's Armor of Brillance protected the hippogriff also. I knew it didn't, so he looked it up and found out he was wrong. So when I killed his hippogriff, poor Louen fell to his death.

Now i'm not saying these people were cheating, everyone forgets a rule here and there. I play 4 different armies myself. But if I hadn't known the rules in those examples the games would have turned out quite different.

What are your stories when knowing the rules helped you?

Grand Warlord
21-10-2007, 04:18
From last edition knowing how to correctly figure out Combat Resolution seemed the big thing ... no idea why.

BigRob
21-10-2007, 08:54
Unfortunatly you'll find alot of people, especially the over competetive types, will convieniently forget rules as and when required.

I dont think the "rules as written or else" approach is always best but some people try and push it. Bakc before their book was released I was playing a wood elf player. We agreed that he only needed one way watcher in the wood to show where the unit of 20 was to save time and fumbling in the terrain. He placed him dead centre in the wood (which was very small, and then claimed that because he wasexactly 3" in, he could see out but I couldnt see him....even though if I had made him deploy the whole unit, it wouldnt have fit in the wood.

Normal play is one thing, but at tournaments, I'd always be a bit suspicious

Tutore
21-10-2007, 13:12
It's very important to know opponent's special rules. That's why I fear those armies which I know only a little bit, like hordes of chaos.

Mad Doc Grotsnik
21-10-2007, 13:16
I get confused on occasion over things like Poison.

In some cases, Poison is a Magic Attack, and others not. This becomes particularly poignant when Ghouls are about to get stuck into some Dryads for example.

Turns out it's not. At least, not in this case!

theunwantedbeing
21-10-2007, 13:32
My opponent claimed to have a 1+ save on his von carstein count.
I pointed out that it was illegal for him to have that item and as such my witch elves took him down when they would have otherwise bounced harmlessly off his 1+ save.

Bernardinatti
21-10-2007, 14:36
Hi,

In my gaming group i am considered the rules buff. I have memorised the statistics of each army that plays in our group, knows pretty much all their special rules and will generally be able to quote from the rulebook for most situations....this is mainly because i am the youngest (ie, my memory is still good) unlike the other players in my group.

So in answer to your question i run into this all the time...i don't mind, there are so many rules you have to think about, you can't help but fudge a rule up here and there, or even misread something....

One time i was playing a re-match against one of the "older" guys i usually play against and we were using the same lists (he was DE i was Skaven) and he used a Highborn instead of High Sorceress on a DP...so when we rematched the next week he was putting his army out and setting up as if he had a High Sorceress and i had to remind him that it was a Highborn...i think that was pretty embarrassing for him, but you have to be willing to grant leeway to those kinda mistakes...

Gorbad Ironclaw
21-10-2007, 14:48
I get confused on occasion over things like Poison.

In some cases, Poison is a Magic Attack, and others not. This becomes particularly poignant when Ghouls are about to get stuck into some Dryads for example.

Turns out it's not. At least, not in this case!

It's easy ;) Poison and magic attacks have nothing at all to do with each other. There is a few cases where a model/unit will have both rules, but in general they are not connected.

Refardeon
21-10-2007, 15:07
Hello

I get the point, too. But there is really a difference between forgetting a rule and "forgetting" a rule.

If i play with a usual gamer, it's occasionally happens that rules will be forgotten. Doesn't complain about. s*** happens. It's then just a game.

In a competitive area I see this quite more. Examples:

There was a skaven player with a unit of monks with BSB, greyseer and 2 warlocks in the first rank forced to attack a unit of pikemen due to the frency. Now he wanted to refuse the charakters all in the back rank. Only possible in the next movement phase, which rather happened, while fleeing from the table.
There was also a dow player with an albion thruthsayer taking the spells he wanted instead of using a dice, another one forgot to remove the 3 fenbeasts when his truthsayer died.

Only examples of the list i recognised and remember

Greetz Refardeon

silashand
21-10-2007, 15:51
Example 1: I was playing a High Elf player who thought his Silver Helms could charge 18" when I pointed out they don't have Ithilmar barding thus he was short and it was a failed charge.

Silver Helms *can* charge 18" if you don't give them barding. Elven horses have a base move of 9". You have a lower armour save, but you get the speed in return.

Cheers, Gary

Fredmans
21-10-2007, 16:08
There is also the question of "cheating" or cheating. EVERY player (including myself) tends to forget "bad" rules only. I once won a game due to getting off a flank charge with my wolf riders into some dark elves. Only afterwards did we collectively "remember" the "fear elves" rule. This was not cheating, but bad memory. The more players that know the army specific rules, the less likely it is that a rule will be forgotten.

/Fredmans

Von Bismarck
22-10-2007, 10:55
Ive forgoten a few things:

With beasts of chaos the unruly tests, but generally if i forget i roll and if it would have changed what happened we just kinda replay that bit. No biggy.

Hatred and always overrun is something else i forget, and blood greed with minos, but if i do forget one we just move back things which were effected and do it again.

same with ppl i play who play orcs, forgeting animosity and stupidity, as long as its not a game breaking and we redo the affected units its fine.

deliberatly forgeting un helpful rules is stupid.

DarkLord Of Naggaroth
22-10-2007, 16:38
when I was playing a beginner, he stood up his weak unit again a load of my cavalry, forgetting that steeds could attack...

Jedi152
22-10-2007, 16:43
Not knowing the tables almost got me beat up by a threatening McMullet.

:D

I'm awful for things like that. And forgetting stuff. Banner of the Barrows is a favourite to forget, as are steeds attacks and magic items.

Hell, i managed to play for a weekend at a tournament and forget in every single game that my thrall had a ward save...

zak
22-10-2007, 21:24
I have forgotten rules which have undoubetly won me or lost me the game. I am sure though that in all cases there was no malice from myself or my opponent and we are not machines with photographic memories. I'm probably lucky in this instance as I play in a set group of friends who I trust. I would hate to think that someone would stoop so low as to actually cheat by intentionally 'forgetting' the rules to suit the situation.

Kahadras
22-10-2007, 21:35
There is a thin dividing line between forgetting a rule and 'forgetting' a rule. I've met people who keep getting the same rule wrong week in week out despite the fact they've been corrected numerous times. I'd like to think it was just a bad memory but I've found that it usualy gives them some kind of advantage.

'Forgetting' rules is one of the most easily recognised of the cheating tricks (along with premeasure, extra movement, dodgy army lists and hidden dice rolling).

Kahadras

theunwantedbeing
22-10-2007, 21:37
Oh yeah.....I forgot that my dark elves hate high elves.
My High elf opponent also did, he also conveniantly "forgot" his intrigue at the court roll.

Didnt make a lot of difference him forgetting I@C but my forgetting hatred cost me the game. My witch elves charged his swordsmasters(or were they charged?...I forget) anywho I beat him in combat several times but would have done so by significantly more and most likely in the first combat, he would have run and I would have been able to overrun into his mage levelling the magical playing feild.
Of course this is pure conjecture but its likely that would have happened.

warlord hack'a
22-10-2007, 21:56
you know what happens in our group a lot: two opponents make each other doubt. E.g. I know the rules, read the rulebook more than once and (contrary to popular belief) am not illiterate. But when I face a friend on the battlefield and he says differently then we always get confused and have to look up the rules again, which takes time..

Just because we do not want ot cheat we spend quite some time flipping through the rulebook, sometimes even when we both know the rule but still because the situation is critical we want to double check..

And as for 'forgetting' rules, no way, if you need to win by cheating don't play this game and certainly not with me..

Finally, I do not know each and every rule of my opponent, but usually, when something is too good to be true I ask and we double check, just use your gut feeling in this..

EvC
22-10-2007, 22:20
I probably know the rules better than most, simply because there's been so many times that this stuff has come up and it's really been to my benefit to know them. Whether it's someone thinking that Beast Herds can break ranks (No, they can't!), or another person putting two arcane items on his Butcher (No, you can't have a Bangstick and then insist that my units take a panic test at -1!); in that case my opponent then had the gall to take off the second item and put a couple of Bellowers in his units instead... of course, were I to take issue with this "honest mistake" then I would be the poor sport, wouldn't I?

There've been too many times when people have conveniently misunderstood or forgotten some key rules that I've tried to read up army books in advance. I'd say that well over half of all opponents who have troops that suffer from Stupidity, Animosity or Unruliness forget their rolls. Unruliness I can understand people forgetting, but I do get a bit pissed off with the other two. Last Orc and Goblin player just started moving his troops in turn one, somehow I knew he would "forget" and said "Hey, ever heard of a rule called AMINOSITY?", which drove home the point. Turned out the ***** was using 6th edition rules as well, so when he failed his tests and I tried to explain he was doing it wrongly, he did not understand, and it was only when he tried to re-cast a spell did a watcher note that no such magic item existed any more. That was the end of that game.

There've been a couple of games where my opponents have almost gotten away with other stuff like that until the end of the game- a turn two charge from Cold One Knights (with Malus Darkblade!) onto my Lord's unit, where my opponent cheerfully told me that the Banner of Murder gave his Cold Ones an extra 7" charge is one, whilst another saw a Tzeentchian player taking extra dispel dice for his Marked units as well. And I know for a fact that both players had used those "interpretations" the weeks before, massacring their opponents. When a friend at the club pointed out my opponents' mistakes so late in the game, they both felt VERY silly- deservedly so.

Worst of all was at the GT, an opponent telling me that his Annoyance of Netlings meant my Vampire Lord also needed 6s to hit his Lord's Dragon. And he got me... not as bad as another fellow at the tournament whose Tomb King opponent had cast urgency on one unit of Archers THREE TIMES in one magic phase to let them cross the board, charge and run down a Slann...


Silver Helms *can* charge 18" if you don't give them barding. Elven horses have a base move of 9". You have a lower armour save, but you get the speed in return.

Great example here silashand. I've had a number of opponents tell me they thought that Silver Helms had the option to not take Barding, but they've been wrong, as have you- Silver Helms come with Barding 100% of the time, it's not an option. Is there a reason for you and so many others to make the same mistake, did they not come with barding in 5th edition or something?

silashand
23-10-2007, 08:42
Is there a reason for you and so many others to make the same mistake, did they not come with barding in 5th edition or something?

Hmmm... never noticed that. Probably because I only ever fielded them fully equipped. In answer to your question, yes, in 5th edition they came with normal horses and could upgrade to barded ones for +8pts. Also, the 6th edition Ravening Hordes HE list had barding as a 2pt option for Silver Helms. Dunno why they changed it, but thanks for pointing that out.

Cheers, Gary

Gorbad Ironclaw
23-10-2007, 09:09
As Silashand said, barding have been optional in all previous versions of the list(well, that I can remember at least), and when you look at it, it makes no sense to have the heavy armour be optional, but leave the barding as mandatory. If anything, you make the barding optional as there is a trade of, making it the heavy armour is just silly.

And of course, a unit such as Black Knights have optional barding, so that might help confuse matters too.

andyfair
23-10-2007, 13:19
As a noob in his 41st year, I am actually having great trouble remembering ANY rules LOL. It really is perplexing and I am amazed at the learning speed of the youngsters who play the game. However last night was a proud night for me as I have finally memorized the "Wound" table - hurrah! Only 7,943 more rules and tables to learn.

superknijn
23-10-2007, 14:35
Well, the wound tsble is rather simple, start with a 4+ adn add or detract 1 if the strenght is higher or lower, stopping at 2+ on one end and 6+ or N at the other. The Weapon skill table is horrid; it just appears so random, and I can only recall some thing easily because I had missguessed it before. (WS4 versus WS3, WS3 versus WS4, WS2 versus WS4 and vice versa)

Bingo the Fun Monkey
23-10-2007, 21:47
I was playing against a Dark Elf player who, in an earlier game, had forgotten about Hatred (as had I) and this might have changed everything (he got massacred). In the follow up, he shot up a good portion of my army which fled in panic, after the game he said "fair's fair and you forgot stoic".

Festus
23-10-2007, 21:51
Hi

The Weapon skill table is horrid; it just appears so random, and I can only recall some thing easily because I had missguessed it before. (WS4 versus WS3, WS3 versus WS4, WS2 versus WS4 and vice versa)
There is nothing more simple than the WS table:


If your WS is higher, then you have to roll 3+.
If your WS is not higher, but his is not more than double yours, you need to roll 4+.
If he has more than double your WS, you will need 5+.


That is the end of it. It is all - and very simple.

Festus

L192837465
23-10-2007, 22:04
i agree its horrid as it doesnt allow enough variance. why would a common peasent who was sent to war with a pitchfork be able to hit a chaos lord with countless years of battle experience under his belt the same amount of times as a wall? its silly. i think a 10-scale would be much better.
/rant

knowing the rules is really important. not only for you, but for your opponant. knowing when your being cheated is a great way to get people to stop cheating.

warlord hack'a
25-10-2007, 09:15
which is why I trust my gut feeling, when someone casts urgency on the same unit three times alarmbells start ringing in my head as this looks far too game unbalancing. SOmething is wrong otherwise we would have heard of that trick before.

The annoyance one is more subtle though, I do not have every enemy armybook so have to do with what armybuilder tells me, which is not much in this case..

Nephilim of Sin
25-10-2007, 09:32
I have to admit, when I first started playing long ago, there were times when I could have "forgotten" something. However, I ended up telling my opponent, and I found it made for a much better game. Otherwise, it was just cheating, because I was aware.

On another note, in one more recent game, I was so exicted by my great animosity rolls (which had been abyssmal before), that I completely forgot the rest of my movement. It was until after I had fired my doom diver that I realized my mistake. Sadly, it probably cost me the game. But it was pretty funny, in retrospect.

L192837465
25-10-2007, 14:54
the time you can actually move, you don't. good times!

WargamesEmpire
25-10-2007, 15:22
My worst crime was when I used to play Orcs & Goblins back in 5th/6th edition.

We had a tournament over a weekend with about 8-10 other players and in every single one of my games I didn't roll for animosity once. A lot of my fellow gamers were extremely pissed off about it about a week after the tourney and they all remembered, but in my defence I completely and utterly forgot! I still feel guilty about it to this day.

Probably why my greenskins were so unbeatable that weekend.

SkawtheFalconer
25-10-2007, 15:53
In my experience, the person who knows the rules best, particularly his opponents rules, will win. Otherwise, how else are you going to know whether or not you have a good chance of beating his unit in combat, or what unpleasent concoction of magic items he might have?

On the other hand, however, there's no excuse for deliberately forgetting stuff like Intrigue at Court and Unruly. It's not your opponent's responsibility to point it out. On the flip side of course, oftentimes, before a game, I will say to my opponent, I'm not very good at remembering Unruly, so please feel free to remind me if I do.

The worst "rules" instance I've come up against was when 6th edition was fairly new - I was playing some Empire guy who cast a comet of cassandora and then forget for three turns to roll to bring it down - by which point, my expensive chaos warrior unit it was aimed at had, of course, wandered off. When he remembered, he yelled at me, claiming it was my prerogative to remind him about the spell. I, admittedly quite stupidly, pointed out I wasn't going to remind him, as I didn't want my units to die. He and his brother (who were probably in their 30s! I was 17!) threatened to beat me up outside.

Is not "reminding" someone about a comet, or an in progress Curse of Years etc, cheating?

ZeroTwentythree
25-10-2007, 15:54
It's very important to know opponent's special rules. That's why I fear those armies which I know only a little bit, like hordes of chaos.



That's why I'm not fond of the trend towards more and more special rules in the game.

It almost kept me from coming back to the game after a few years away. Even as a veteran player who knew the core rules, there was just sooooo much in the way of special rules (which I still don't entirely know, especially when you throw in magic items, spells, runes, etc.) that it was like learning a new game. That's also why although I've returned to playing WFB, I will not play any of the other games anymore. Too much to keep up with. I play the game to relax, not stress out & study like a midterm exam.

Over the years the game has supposedly streamlined and simplified, and that is true of the core rules. But all the special rules have really made it more complex than ever.

etancross
25-10-2007, 16:12
I hate to say it but when i forgot something, its usually something that would have benefitted me for ex: Damn i forgot i gave thos big'uns the banner of butchery... or Damn i forgot i had nibblas itty ring, or damn i had the banner of +1 combat res....

GRRRRR!!

McMullet
25-10-2007, 16:35
Knowing the close combat "to hit" table meant that I didn't actually have to beat Jedi 152 up... :D

Familiarity with the special rules for the army you are playing is very useful. For example, having played against Vampire Counts quite a bit, I am at an advantage when playing undead armies because I know the importance of the crumbling effects in close combat.

I don't tend to memorise rules on the assumption that other people will "forget" them, however. At a tournament I generally let minor errors slip rather than insisting my opponent spends a quarter of an hour going through the rulebook/armybook - as long as it's not going to break the game, and I don't think it's intentional, it's not really a big deal. Errors in my favour I tend to point out as people don't normally argue about that...

T10
25-10-2007, 16:38
There's a big difference in not knowing the rules and forgetting them. I'm not going to bother going into cheating, because cheaters both know and remember the rules.

You owe it to your opponent to know the rules, to at least make an effort to do so. Forgetting, misunderstanding - all that is easy to forgive if you are willing to learn from those mistakes and correct them instead of complaining that "some-one shoulda told ya!".

If you are a beginner and want to learn the game there is a simple rule of thumb: State what you want to achieve before committing. Your opponent will tell you wether that is possible or not and talk you through the steps. Unless he's the kind of player that "forgets" the rules from time to time.

-T10

505
25-10-2007, 17:45
I had a game with my brets and I forgot 2 things three times.
1) I forgot unit didn't have the +1 banner and claimed it in 1 combat...I felt real bad then I realized....
2) my battle standard bearer had the virtue that gave him +1 to CR if general is alive and I forgot he had it twice (and that was a major battle were the units banner wasn't)

EvC
25-10-2007, 23:36
Errors in my favour I tend to point out as people don't normally argue about that...

I played a recent GT game where my opponent botched so many rules, however, when he started insisting that his own Salamanders didn't cause Fear, I realised that some people just have to be right all the time. It should come as no surprise that the guy in question is a Games Workshop employee ;)

Von Wibble
26-10-2007, 12:12
The rules I see most often forgotten are those whre a magic item gives some kind of penalty in a different phase as well as its bonus - eg banner of burning hatred, helm of many eyes. Since these items are "used" in the combat phase it is easy to forget the effects elsewhere - and its not something an opponent can correct you on (those trolls need stupidity check - do any of your characters??)

Skaw - I remember drawing a game I could have won because a key unit of mine had FOTP cast in the previous turn. I forgot about it in my next magic phase so didn't dispel it, despite having the dice and nothing else to do with them. Personally I liked it better in 4th and 5th where RIP spells often had attached templates to remind you your units had been targetted.

I never forgot I@C as a HE player though. And I can't say I mourn its passing.

mav1971
26-10-2007, 15:22
Between my brother and me we have all the rule books. Thats come in handy quite a few times.

As far as reminding people of their RIP spells or actions of their other units I'll remind them once or twice to be a good sport, but if they keep it up its not my fault they didn't remember to shoot with their archers now that we have started the combat phase. Its not my job to play their army for them.

EvC
26-10-2007, 15:24
If I'm playing someone and they forget to try and dispel an RiP spell and use their magic dice for nothing else, then I'll always let them have the attempt to dispel it... play nice :)

Crazy Harborc
27-10-2007, 01:42
My regular opponents and I all forget rules. Even worse, we will remember rules from previous editions and or other rules sets....."Not in this game" can take 5 minutes of searching before being realized.;)

Most of the opponents I've played against in the last 7-8 years, when making mistakes, came across as making legitimite mistakes, not like cheaters.

Decades of life experiences have taught me that the people who protest too much and or too loudly about how "whoever" was/is cheating, need a little watching to make sure they aren't guilty themselves.;)

explorator
27-10-2007, 04:58
With Unruly I have got in the habit of telling my opponent prior to the game that I am going to forget to roll at least once in the game, and then I ask for a reminder. I took alot of panic test in my Beastmen army when my chariots got destroyed, until I realized that the panic test only applies if the destroyed unit is Unit Strength 5 or higher. I once forgot to ambush TWO beastherds for the whole game, but that is 'forgetting' of a different sort.

Tuch
27-10-2007, 05:20
I seem to always forget about applying fear effects when initiating or receiving a charge. Terror I remember but never fear.

I can also not count the amount of times I've removed my exalted champion and a turn later remember that he had Gaze of the Gods and got a ward save.

Festus
27-10-2007, 08:17
Hi

Is not "reminding" someone about a comet, or an in progress Curse of Years etc, cheating?
Yes. it definitely is cheating.

If you know it - remember it, then tell him.

Both players are responsible for keeping the rules. You cannot only point out mistakes your oponent makes which are to your advantage.

How can you remind him that his unit can only move 4" due to marchblockers and not remind him that he forgot his Comet?
Both are the rules of the games, and both must be adhered to to play the game. So it is both participants responsibility that all game rules (even house rules) are kept and satisfied.

There is no reason why it is OK to tell the one but not the other.

Festus

Lorcryst
27-10-2007, 11:19
To be honest, I still don't know the core rules of the game by heart ... and I sometimes forget some of the special rules of the army I play, because I'm too focused on my battle plan (but my usual opponents remind me of my Unruly and Animosity tests, kindly too).

On the other hand, I've had the displeasure of playing against someone who is more interested in winning than playing ... every little bit of ruling that could be contested was hotly debated (for example, he made a 10 minute speech about one of his units not being visible inside a wood while clearly within 2 inches of the edge of the wood ...), every rule of my army that could be harmful to his was called "too cheesy to be true, check that", and every rule of his army that inconvenienced him was forgotten ...

It was a very not fun experience.

Urgat
27-10-2007, 12:53
If I'm playing someone and they forget to try and dispel an RiP spell and use their magic dice for nothing else, then I'll always let them have the attempt to dispel it... play nice :)


I'd like to play against you >< I forget such things all the time, and nobody will ever point it out till I start the shooting phase (which I may forget too, btw), and then they're "hah! you should have tried to dispell that :p".
I also tend to forget my magic items, that's why I've taken the habit of taking only a handful, and that are easy to remember.
Ah well.

EvC
27-10-2007, 21:06
Well I want my opponents to play their best, it's just not rewarding to win simply because they might have forgotten something. I agree on the magic items bit, there's been loads of times I've forgotten stuff, even though it could have really saved my bacon (Like a game today where I really needed to wipe out a mere 3 Glade Guard survivors, and forgot I had a power stone that could do the job). That's why I refuse to take items that have a negative effect that must be remembered (E.g. Crown of the Damned, gives 4+ Ward but also Stupidity), I'd be too at risk of forgetting it.

kairous
27-10-2007, 23:06
if im unsure i always make the player show me the rule in his book, even if im good friends with them, i still want to see their not pulling a fast one on me, as i too forget the rules or how to certain things sometimes, everyone does.

Bretonnian Lord
27-10-2007, 23:25
My Dark Elf friend misread the post for Corsairs- he thought their Sea Dragon cloaks provided a 1+ save, when it actually provides a +1 save.

So he plopped Malus Darkblade in a unit of 16 of em and all my knights were bouncing harmlessly off. Only after the game did we realize the mistake (We were both relatively new to Warhammer at the time, like 2 or 3 months into it).

Gives me a good laugh everytime I think about it. :D

Thommy H
28-10-2007, 00:47
Don't get me started on Animosity checks...

It wouldn't be so bad if it was every unit, but, in my case, it's one or two Hobgoblin units and, when one is my wolf riders and I'm always thinking two turns ahead about the best place to chuck them in any given situation (how did I ever live without fast cavalry?), it's easy to get distracted and forget that annoying little dice roll.

Crazy Harborc
28-10-2007, 04:16
A couple of months ago another old fart and I were deep into a 2500 each O & G against O & G battle...At the end of turn three we realized we had yet to do animosity:wtf: No big deal all things considered, had a good game anyway.;)