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sam500
22-10-2007, 20:08
It's been a long time since I've played 40K..... 12 years long and I'm just getting back into it now that I've seen the forgeworld stuff.

I LOVE the look of the Forgeworld Greater Demons and Tyranids, but I've got a few questions for you guys.

1. How transparent are the Imperial Armor rules for standard 40K? For instance if I buy a bunch of tyranid forgeworld minis will I need a special dispensation from my opponent to use them (as they're not canon GW) or are they pretty much accepted as the norm? Are they tournament legal?
2. I've read that space marines are overly powerfull in the new system and any other force just can't compare. Is this true?
3. Which force would be more fun to play: Chaos or Tyranids?
4. Has there been a big change in Chaos Space Marines recently? Are some of the older units now completely defunct?
5. Is it possible to use any space marine vehicle or imperial guard tank in a chaos space marine army (with some converting)?

Hulkster
22-10-2007, 20:47
1. You need opponents permission and they are only tournament legal if the tournament allows them.
2. No, if anything Mechanised Eldar are that force. However TBH it is pretty balanced all round.
3.Depends which you like more, personally for me Tyranids because I like the idea of the bugs.
4.Units are fine, just Lords and DPs are less powerful and there are no rules for the Old legions. Oh and you cannot take noise weapons on dreadnoughts now.
5.No

Mr_Rose
22-10-2007, 20:49
The following are mostly opinion, despite how categorical they might sound:
1. No. They are canon GW, however various tournaments disallow FW rules because they are run by petty children. Other than that FW rules are entirely acceptable, being as they come from Games Workshop Supplement books (the latest one even has the 40K supplement logo).:angel:
2. Rubbish put about by the same whiners that don't like Forge World stuff.:rolleyes:
3. That depends entirely on how you like to play, plus you have to consider that there are at least eight different major variations between the two of them, but the answer is Tyranids.;)
4. Yes. No. (there has been a new codex released, but only one model was dropped and IMHO it shouldn't have been in there in the first place):chrome:
5. Space Marines, yes, Guard no. The Codex: Chaos Space Marines focuses on the marine aspects of chaos rather than cultists and rebel guard.

Bregalad
22-10-2007, 22:11
First of all, most FW models are for fun and awe, no for competitive games. If you like them, buy them and have fun.

1.) If it is not in the Codex, ask. It is fair to get the opponents permission to field a super heavy, otherwise he might not have a chance and might as well give up (if e.g. you field a Biotitan/flyer that he can't kill). If 98% of your games (after a 12 year pause) are really tournaments, FW is not for you. But in that case, you would play to win, not to have fun. Some tournaments allow FW models, some don't.
If you play Apocalypse (likely with FW models), you have more freedom. For normal games, only Trygon, brood nest, Warrior Wings and spores are useful. BTW, you need the IA4 book, if you play Tyranids.
2.) SM are powerful and GW's most beloved child, not allowed to ever lose in a summer campaign. But there are armies out there, that can beat them (e.g. Eldar and Dark Eldar).
3.) As said by the others: Depends. Different Chaos Gods, different Tyranid styles (Godzilla, Horde, in between). I guess, it is easier to win with some Chaos armies than with many tyranid armies (that struggle against mechanized Eldar and Tau). But it is always fun to swarm the table with painted little Tyranid critters.
4.) New Codex in September. Focussing on undivided army, simplifying God specific units plus demons. Obliterators toned down. Some Daemon Codex will follow about May 2008.
5.) No more Basilisk, but now Vindicator (SM) plus Baneblade (IG) for all. Plus Rhino and and Raider of course.

Omniassiah
22-10-2007, 22:50
1) Forgeworld is almost never allowed unless its simply a cosmetic change or bits to make a non-provided model, not a new model (winged warriors or a different turret/hull pattern for example). Large stuff is allowed in permission only environments because they can easily dominate smaller games
2) most used maybe most powerful no
3)the enjoyment of an army is based on the player not the army. If you want to have a very detailed story on your guys then Chaos will be way better then 'nids. I would suggest spending some time at the closest "significant" retailer talking to them about what you want in an army they'll be the best to answer that as its not an easy question.
4) New codex has changed things in the codex. Most of the units are still there whether or not a particular set of models will be still viable as an army... you'd have to get the codex
5) Small scale games/tournaments no with the obvious exceptions of matched vehicles such as converting a loyalist Vindicator up. IF you decide to play larger scale games that qualify under the new apoc rules, then the limits of whats fielded is really based around the group you play with. That said being 12 years out of the game I would sit with normal sized games till you get the rules down as the game system is massively different now then it was 12 years ago.

Hulkster
22-10-2007, 22:51
I think i should point out that the LR variants are not available as choices for Chaos Armies. The Terminus is the exception to this rule.

greenmtvince
23-10-2007, 00:57
To reiterate the answer to 1) Yes FW rules are legal and do not require opponents permission. The foreward in most of the books and IIRC the FAQs say so. The exception is Superheavy vehicles, but only in that they require a seperate detachment. The superheavies themselves don't require opponents permission, so if you and your opponent agree to multiple FOCs, you are more than welcome to plop down a baneblade or 3 as your second FOC.

The caveat is that tournament organizers have the ability to allow or disallow rules as they see fit. GTs have historically not allowed FW rules to be used as well as some varient codicies. Many local tournament organizers base their rules on GTs either because it's an established standard or in order to prep their players for the GTs. However many others allow FW rules, and I believe Adepticon is one of the largest.

Further caveat, the rules are really quite balanced and for the most part end up handicapping you by using them. Even the flyer rules, however wonky they may be, are actually quite balanced. I would rather face down a Thunderbolt than two basilisks any day.

RexTalon
23-10-2007, 02:25
5.) No more Basilisk, but now Vindicator (SM) plus Baneblade (IG) for all. Plus Rhino and and Raider of course.
The Baneblade is still an 'Apocalypse' only thing, and will only be apoc unless you get permission from the person you're playing against. It's not tournament legal, unless it's an apoc tournament.
Otherwise, you are correct, BB is for everyone.

Hulkster
23-10-2007, 07:16
To reiterate the answer to 1) Yes FW rules are legal and do not require opponents permission. The foreward in most of the books and IIRC the FAQs say so. The exception is Superheavy vehicles, but only in that they require a seperate detachment. The superheavies themselves don't require opponents permission, so if you and your opponent agree to multiple FOCs, you are more than welcome to plop down a baneblade or 3 as your second FOC.

The caveat is that tournament organizers have the ability to allow or disallow rules as they see fit. GTs have historically not allowed FW rules to be used as well as some varient codicies. Many local tournament organizers base their rules on GTs either because it's an established standard or in order to prep their players for the GTs. However many others allow FW rules, and I believe Adepticon is one of the largest.

Further caveat, the rules are really quite balanced and for the most part end up handicapping you by using them. Even the flyer rules, however wonky they may be, are actually quite balanced. I would rather face down a Thunderbolt than two basilisks any day.

it may say that in the book but look at it this way.

Your opponent may not be able to afford the books, so he does not have the options you have for starters. Then look at flyers, with out prior warning of there play they make the game stupidly hard for your opponent as he struggles to shoot them down.

I would always ask opponents permission, otherwise it just isnt fair.

Vaktathi
23-10-2007, 07:32
1. How transparent are the Imperial Armor rules for standard 40K? For instance if I buy a bunch of tyranid forgeworld minis will I need a special dispensation from my opponent to use them (as they're not canon GW) or are they pretty much accepted as the norm? Are they tournament legal?

For anything that is included in a normal FoC, you need no more permission to take them for a normal game than any standard Codex option by the Rules as Written (and most like Rules as Intended as has been expressed in the IA books preface) however larger units such as Superheavies can only be taken in larger games with more than 2000pts allowed and needs 2 FoC's and as such would require a large pre-arranged game to allow them to be taken. That said, the larger IA units will have homes in Apocalypse, which is pretty much where they belong.

Tournaments make their own rules and as such are not normal 40k games. Usually GT's and larger GW run tournaments do not allow Forgeworld units, but many RTT's do allow them, and most leagues I've seen allow them.



2. I've read that space marines are overly powerfull in the new system and any other force just can't compare. Is this true?

Not true, the bigger problem is the metagame, there are more Marine armies than anything else, and as such people feel the need to tailor lists to beat them as they are their most common opponents and will need to be played against differently than say, a Guard gunline.



3. Which force would be more fun to play: Chaos or Tyranids?
That depends on what you like more, Both are solid armies, both do shooting and CC fairly well but in different ways. It all depends on what you like visually and how you like to play.



4. Has there been a big change in Chaos Space Marines recently? Are some of the older units now completely defunct?

The recent changes were fairly substantial and it really is a different army now. Some of the older units, particularly Daemons no longer function anywhere near what they used to, but can still be used.



5. Is it possible to use any space marine vehicle or imperial guard tank in a chaos space marine army (with some converting)?

Pretty much every Space Marine vehicle except the Razorback, Land Speeder and Land Raider Crusader is included in the Chaos army list, but outside of that you cannot use any Imperial vehicles in a Chaos Space Marine army.




Your opponent may not be able to afford the books, so he does not have the options you have for starters. Why should that be a limiter? One player may not have the money to buy a unit of Assault Marines, does this mean I shouldnt take Raptors in my army? Very few of the units in the IA books that arent superheavies or flyers are going to give anyone an unfair advantage.


Then look at flyers, with out prior warning of there play they make the game stupidly hard for your opponent as he struggles to shoot them down. I've found that Flyers generally end up not impacting the game substantially as they often don't get too much more than 2-3 rounds of shooting in, and they tend to be very expensive and generally have less firepower than most tanks. While I would agree with informing an opponent before taking a flyer and allowing them to redo their list to compensate, I don't think it ends up making a huge difference for most of them, especially when you rarely see more than one flyer. They can be annoying, but rarely have a greater effect than something like a Fire Prism/Falcon or Hammerhead.

Brother Loki
23-10-2007, 10:10
Sam500. If you've been out of it for 12 years, then I'm guessing you last played in 2nd edition, yes? The game has changed a lot since then, and has become more a game of units rather than characters. Armies are normally built according to a 'force organisation chart' which dictates how many HQ, Troops, Elites, Fast Attack and Heavy Support units you can have in an army. There's also the new Apocalypse expansion you will have no doubt read about, which does away with many of these restrictions and feels much more like the 'anything goes' environment of 2nd ed.

1. How usable Forgeworld stuff is depends entirely on your play environment, and your friends. I'd never say no, but some people bring their tournament mindset to friendly games. If you're mostly playing friendly games with your mates, then go for it. If you're likely to play a lot of tournaments, maybe wait till you've got a basic 1500 point army of normal stuff, and then add to it with forgeworld goodies. Its also worth mentioning that there are basically 3 kinds of forgeworld models: (a) models of options which are in the codex, but don't have GW models, eg winged tyranid warriors, (b) models of units and vehicles which aren't in the codex but fill a normal force organisation slot, like the IG Vanquisher or Salamander tanks, and (c) big stuff like superheavy vehicles, gargantuan creatures and flyers, which actually add rules to the game, over and above their own stats. (a) should be fine anywhere, (b) should be fine in most circumstances and with (c) its good to let your opponent know in advance as they may have no way of dealing with it if they don't know about it. In Apoalypse games though, anything goes.

From what I can understand, most tournaments that disallow forgeworld rules do so on the basis of access, not balance. General consensus is that forgeworld vehicles (not superheavies or flyers, which add actual rules to the game) are typically expensive points-wise for what they do, and aren't overpowered. The issue is that their rules are in books which cost 2 or 3 times as much as a codex, and it can't be relied on that your opponents (or the event judges) will have ever seen them before.

2. Not true at all. Marines probably have the easiest learning curve, but that's about it.

3. That depends entirely on you and your preferred style of play, and how much you like the models.

4. They have just had a new codex out. Given how long you've been out of the game, you probably won't really notice the changes too much , since the new codex looks much like the late 2nd ed/early 3rd ed ones, than the more recent '3.5' ed one. They don't get stuff like cultists anymore though, and daemons are less varied than they were. This is because there will be a daemon codex coming out next year. Whether it will be compatible with CSM or a standalone book is still subject to rumour.

5. Chaos marines have access to Rhinos, Predators, Land Raiders and Vindicators, but not other marine or IG vehicles in their codex. However, the new Apocalypse expansion allows Chaos access to any imperial datasheet, so in that more free environment then yes, it's fine to have other chaos vehicles.