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View Full Version : Horus Herey omissions you would have liked



BrainFireBob
22-10-2007, 20:48
What would you have liked to see included in the Horus Heresy books that's not there?

Myself, I would have liked more insight into Guilliman's writing of the Codex- in particular, fluff about it being a collaborative effort from all the Primarchs, with Guilliman soliciting their input. Perturabo's siege treatise and Night Haunter's quote "Space Marines know no fear for they are fear incarnate!" are an opening for this to have been written- it'd also make the Codex Astartes an even better piece of fluff, in terms of longevity, if it wasn't just Guilliman's ideas but the gestalt military wisdom of the Primarchs, as compiled and edited by Guilliman. Hence why it's such a good document- you're not beating Guilliman, you're beating the best planning the Primarchs as a gestalt could come up with.

What else could/would/should have been included?

trigger
22-10-2007, 20:51
A book on russ containing the fude with the lion
hopefully containing the second part which no body can remember

silence
22-10-2007, 20:54
hmmm, how about some stuff on what the other races where doing at this time and how they related to this war. Not necessarily a whole book on this subject but some kind of perspective might be nice.

Maidel
22-10-2007, 21:13
hmmm, how about some stuff on what the other races where doing at this time and how they related to this war. .

Surely the answer is 'pointing and laughing'

as the pride of humanity wipes itself out fighting itself rather than turning their guns on the other xenos races.

trigger
22-10-2007, 21:21
Also in the russ book his friendship with the squats
that would be nice

Ktotwf
22-10-2007, 21:26
I want an Emperor book, and an Imperial Guarmy book.

Adra
22-10-2007, 21:29
I would like to see what happens to the Raven Guard and Corax when he tries to speed up the marine making process after the HH. That would make a bloody good book.

starlight
22-10-2007, 21:46
In line with the first post, the discussions over how to figure out which contribututions from the (now) Traitor Primarchs to keep. Surely there were those who wanted to burn whole sections just because they were written (or inspired) by Horus (etc), while others recognised military insights no matter where they came from...

Interesting quandry...

Damien 1427
22-10-2007, 22:05
The Iron Warriors being more than the guys in the background who are bad dudes. I'd dearly love to see pre-Heresy Forrix.

Col. Dash
22-10-2007, 22:10
Is this a wishlist? Gull doesnt write the codex until after the HH and Corax doesnt do his thing until afterwards as well. They just did the Istvaan massacre, they have alot of writing to do before they end it and start doing the other stuff. I personally cant wait for the Seige of Terra. A book from the NL perspective would be great too. It could end right where a scifi version of Apoclpyse(sp) Now starts. Having M'Shen reporting to a space trailer on Luna to meet with H'Ford.

Takitron
22-10-2007, 22:27
I would like to see what happens to the Raven Guard and Corax when he tries to speed up the marine making process after the HH. That would make a bloody good book.

THIS.
+1

Seriously, this would make a great story.

Tyron
22-10-2007, 22:34
They can do 30 books minimum. 20 for each Primarch, plus the ones we already have and many inbetween including other characters and event.

Ktotwf
22-10-2007, 22:36
Enough with the Primarchs already.

"Oh, I am super powerful, but I am also a person with feelings and I have to make a choice between loyalty to the Emperor or the Chaos Gods boo hoo hoo"

Lame.

The entire series should be remade into an Imperial Guard story, and the ending should have Ollanius Pius knocking out Horus long enough to kill him, while the Emperor chills in the background.

Tanith Ghost
22-10-2007, 23:02
I'd like to see Olanius Pius and Sanguinius both recognized for their valor without one being glorified over the other. Perhaps even have the two meet before they both go on to their deaths in the battle. Sanguinius was well known as a humble warrior, and was very inspiring to all around him because he stood with his comrades rather than over them. A talk with the noble blood angel would be all Pius needed to save the Emperor's life without a second's hesitation.

Col. Dash
23-10-2007, 01:57
What would be a good story would be to see Olanius as kind of a traditional military hero and not some pious hard core marine clone. Make him a real military trooper bitching about the food, having to pull gaurd duty in the cold, burning crap in barrels because someone forgot to pray to the toilet spirit and it doesnt work anymore. Maybe his getting transported was really a wrong place at the wrong time kind of thing. Most heros are the unexpected types, the ones who you would least expect to do the right thing. The glory hound, medal hunters tend to get weeded out pretty quick in combat. He was there, saw what he had to do at the last second and did it. Hell, have him sign up for the guard for college money heheh.

Hellebore
23-10-2007, 02:04
In line with the first post, the discussions over how to figure out which contribututions from the (now) Traitor Primarchs to keep. Surely there were those who wanted to burn whole sections just because they were written (or inspired) by Horus (etc), while others recognised military insights no matter where they came from...

Interesting quandry...

Maybe that's why Guilliman 'wrote' the whole thing. It was a conspiracy to retain the knowledge without divulging it's origin.

Would also put Guilliman in a new light, if he didn't single handedly write the whole thing...




What would be a good story would be to see Olanius as kind of a traditional military hero and not some pious hard core marine clone. Make him a real military trooper bitching about the food, having to pull gaurd duty in the cold, burning crap in barrels because someone forgot to pray to the toilet spirit and it doesnt work anymore. Maybe his getting transported was really a wrong place at the wrong time kind of thing. Most heros are the unexpected types, the ones who you would least expect to do the right thing. The glory hound, medal hunters tend to get weeded out pretty quick in combat. He was there, saw what he had to do at the last second and did it. Hell, have him sign up for the guard for college money heheh.

That would be pretty cool I reckon. An ordinary guy, complaining and moaning, sticking it out, but when the going gets tough, his quality is shown.

Makes the sacrifice all the more poignant.

Hellebore

DantesInferno
23-10-2007, 02:26
Maybe that's why Guilliman 'wrote' the whole thing. It was a conspiracy to retain the knowledge without divulging it's origin.

Would also put Guilliman in a new light, if he didn't single handedly write the whole thing...


It's worth pointing out that, "The Iron Warriors' Primarch, Perturabo, excelled in siege and trench warfare above all else, and his treatise on fortifications and their destruction formed the basis of several sections of the Tactica Imperium." (I think this is the 2nd ed Chaos Codex, I'll check when I get home)

Seems that the Imperium in general wasn't above using the tactical insights of its fallen heroes, so it's entirely possible that Guilliman's Codex was strongly influenced by some of the doctrines of the Traitor Primarchs.

Hellebore
23-10-2007, 02:35
Well, what I meant was more that Guilliman's name was plastered all over it to cover up the knowledge that sections were actually written by the traitor primarchs themselves.

It says his treatise formed the basis, but doesn't necessarily mean the chapter was titled:

Buildings, and I how I broke them

By Perturabo

Basically if the Imperium couldn't hack using the names of the traitors, Guilliman may have either been a political hero propped up as all that is good in the loyalists, and credited with the Codex, or he took their work and paraphrased it to write the codex.

Either way, it would be an interesting twist to see that the marines that follow the codex are entirely ignorant of the fact that Guilliman 'stole' the tactics of the traitors for their use.

Hellebore

DantesInferno
23-10-2007, 02:47
Well, what I meant was more that Guilliman's name was plastered all over it to cover up the knowledge that sections were actually written by the traitor primarchs themselves.

It says his treatise formed the basis, but doesn't necessarily mean the chapter was titled:

Buildings, and I how I broke them

By Perturabo

Basically if the Imperium couldn't hack using the names of the traitors, Guilliman may have either been a political hero propped up as all that is good in the loyalists, and credited with the Codex, or he took their work and paraphrased it to write the codex.

Either way, it would be an interesting twist to see that the marines that follow the codex are entirely ignorant of the fact that Guilliman 'stole' the tactics of the traitors for their use.

Yeah, for sure.

A possible problem with this theory is that Guilliman apparently had a well-known tactical doctrine before the Heresy which he was apparently very proud of (cf. the dispute with Alpharius over it).

According to the Alpha Legion IA article: "Guilliman believed in rigid structure and hierarchy, and had a firm battle doctrine that his legion never wavered from. He was in the process of documenting the 'correct' tactics and operation of a Space Marine force, tried and tested during his long years of command, and suggested that the young Alpha Legion should adopt this 'codex' behaviour....
Guilliman was a military commander with few peers. However, all the experience, lessons and tactics he had accumulated over the centuries had been carefully documented, compiled and made accessible to the other legions, in the Primarch's desire to improve the Emperor's armies as a whole."

Therefore, if the official codex version produced post-Heresy differed wildly from Guilliman's pre-Heresy doctrine, there may have been some eyebrows raised (amongst the Ultramarines and other Legions). It also may have been a bitter pill indeed for Guilliman to swallow by including Horus' tactics (or even Alpharius') alongside his own.

starlight
23-10-2007, 04:14
Hellebore is reading my query correctly. In the years leading up to the HH, all the Primarchs worked (more or less;)) together at various points and undoubtedly shared ideas if not outright competed against each other (with notable outcomes), so anything Guilliman was writing would have undoubtedly been influenced by the leadership, strategy and tactics of the other Primarchs.

The *degree* is what is in discussion here. Would he have re-atributed the Iron Warriors Siege chapter to the Imperial Fists, or would he have subsumed it *all* under one name - his?

Fodder for the mill...;)

Stella Cadente
23-10-2007, 04:25
I would of liked to of seen a scene with the Emperor pimping out slutty sisters of battle from the back of a Dodge Challenger whilst shouting cuss words into Horus face and gouging his testicles out with incessant amounts of cheap bling rings........however I highly doubted I was gonna get that, and I was right

BrainFireBob
23-10-2007, 06:18
Guilliman was gathering the battle reports of the other Primarchs prior to the Heresy.

And to Hellebore's point: That's what happened to Night Haunter's quote. In the Index Astartes Night Lords article, and I believe the 3.5 'dex, "Space Marines know no fear for they are fear incarnate" is attributed to him. In the 3rd and 4th Ed Marine 'dexes, it's attributed to Guilliman. That's a fair indicated that's <strike>Perturabo</strike> Guilliman wrote the Siege section of the Codex, to my mind.

EDIT: And it has always interested me that the Chapter formation is setup specifically to follow Horus' "go for the throat" pet strategy.

Arkley
23-10-2007, 07:44
He (Guilliman) would have been a fool not to include the tactics of the fallen Primarchs, but given the Imperium as it became I can't see the High Lords of Terra being happy at the use of tactics made/used/confirmed by said Primarchs. As has been said it can be easy to change history, Perturabo was in my eyes the Siege Expert, but his tactics can be said to have come from Dorn.

Guilliman worte the codex but you would have to be stupid not to include the information from your 17 brothers who all had battlefield strengths.

And even as a Ultramarine Fanatic I'm not baised enough to think my Primarch wrote every tactic.

But at the end we will never know what the Codex contains.... Unless GW write it.

For me there is a few things I would love to see..

Ultramarines v Word Bearers and Calth
Ultramarines v Alpha Legion (No I don't believe Apharius is dead)
Imperial Fists v Iron Warriors
World Eaters v Emperors Children (I know its after the heresy)
etc :)

Adra
23-10-2007, 07:57
So u guys wanna see a book about a guy writing a book? Ok i think thats great and im all for it to....but please can we have a Corax book first. Hes so lonely and he has no mates. We should show him a little love cos he gets all sad and runs away from home. He has one line in Fulgrim and i think thats the most GW have ever done on him. He does not even have a picture in the HH art books u know. Poor lonely old Corax. I was in GW the other day and a staffer didnt even know who he was just from his name. Thats inexcusable.

jfrazell
23-10-2007, 12:47
More on the titan legions, and from a Imperial Army POV. Marines are fine, but they are only part of the 40K universe. Lets see a book on the AM and the rebellion on Mars. Now there would be some interesting high tech bangie bangie (enough with the swords, break out the plasma annihilators!).



The entire series should be remade into an Imperial Guard story, and the ending should have Ollanius Pius knocking out Horus long enough to kill him, while the Emperor chills in the background.

Oh, it just brings tears to this old guardsman's eye. :cries:

Deathwing_Learn
24-10-2007, 04:46
I would like to see a book from a Guard POV. If they dont do a book for each of the legions i really hope they spend more time on legions we know little about (Raven Guard, Iron Warriors) and leave the well known ones alone. O and the seige on terra 100%. Maybe even spread it over a few different books with different POV's

Chilltouch
24-10-2007, 09:11
I'd personally be interested in a Russ V Magnus book and the destruction of Prospero. That'd be a good read, because let's be honest - BL does better action books than 'boohoo i don't wanna be corrupt but i wanna be corrupt so maybe or maybe i won't go corrupt'.

Corax is another good one.
Just one book on Imperial Guard though - the Heresy is all about the Primarchs and although I am a big IG fan, they had very little involvement at all.

Ktotwf
24-10-2007, 09:23
Just one book on Imperial Guard though - the Heresy is all about the Primarchs and although I am a big IG fan, they had very little involvement at all.

Except for Ollanius Pius - who had the greatest involvement of all.