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Master Vampire
22-10-2007, 22:24
*PLEASE READ THE POST BEFORE VOTING*

Greetings,

It's a hot topic at the moment and it seems like the rule has already been proven: the Always Strike First rule, a.k.a. Speed of Asuryan.

For High Elf players, old and new, it seems like a gift from the elven heavens. But I've seen some others complain about it. People who don't play HE think it will be too powerful in tournaments, and in any other given circumstance.

I guess that the speculation and dividedness hasn't been so great on a single rule, which isn't even published yet!

Doesn't it ring any bells?

High Elves are getting a lot of improvements, and pretty big ones too. I can't notice anything that reduces HE effectiveness/power. Then again, I might not be the expert to know. It might even be hidden so far away that the rumour squads couldn't pick it up.

The biggest improvement is Always Strike First. To date, members seem to agree that ASF has no exceptions, and that it is exactly what it says it does: always strike first. There might have been someone who wrote it's not making any sense at all, either way it's a long time ago I read "it's not as shiny as it sounds".

Think about it, if you charge any given High Elf unit, you'll be struck first? That sounds like a punishment for doing something good. Movement is maybe the most important phase, it is definantly Close Combat what GW aims you to do. I mean, what fun is it to run and flee, shoot and magic them to death instead? (remember 5th edition Wood Elves? 6 units of 5 Archers, 2x 5-8 Dryads, 5 Wardancers, 5 Waywatchers, 2 Eagles, Hail of Doom Arrow, Bow of Loren, Acorn of Ages, moving trees all around.... list continues, which featured pretty hard hitting elements too ;) )

Now take any given fast cavalry/skirmish unit. How will they ever break/kill HE Archer units? They'll get attacks back, probably outnumber and a rank too! The whole temptation to take out the shooting is nullified.

So basically you get punished for doing 'the right thing'. That doesn't make sense to me. 2 Dragons in 2k, 6 Special and 4 Rare in 2k all make "fair" sense to me about what HE should be, but each unit ASF, with no exceptions:

Makes no sense to me.

This is not a rant, merely giving you a thought if ASF is really what it's supposed to be, or 'it's not as shiny as it sounds'.

What do you think?

Cheers,
-MV

EvC
22-10-2007, 23:50
When people have said it's not as shiny as it sounds, they just mean that although it does work all the time for all High Elves, without exception, it's not as unbalancing as it might seem.

theunwantedbeing
23-10-2007, 00:21
Yeah they are still t3 worthless crappy rubbish and most units are still st3 or 4 which we all know is worthless and rubbish.
And their infantry will cost "lots" of points so that'll be ounumbered, outranked and whatever other outsomething words you care to think of.

Plus everyone has plenty of cannons to deal with those lion chariots, and cheap archers to deal with great eagles and chariots to deal with swordsmasters and helblasters and organ guns to deal with everything else.

As for the dark elves well.....they'll get hatred or something which will totally make up for it as all their remaining attacks will hit at a huge st3 which always kills whatever they hit.

*cough* sarcasm *cough*

I'll believe the rule when I see it for my own eyes in an official High elf armybook that I am holding in my hand.

mistformsquirrel
23-10-2007, 00:37
I honestly have a hard time deciding if its fair or not. Partially just because I'm too new to really say.

From a fluff standpoint, it definitely fits my image of elves at war though. That said; I understand that balance has to trump fluff if the game is to remain fun, so in that respect...

Consider me firmly in the "It's all a bit confusing" camp.

Stella Cadente
23-10-2007, 00:41
I think of it like this

"I can strike first?, WOOHOO.......but then again I'm still outnumbered 5 to 1 by most horde armies....and I'm not particularly strong......and if I don't kill enough my toughness ain't gonna help much"

so you can strike first, so what, you've still got everything else to consider, its only 1 tiny rule.

plus we still have flanks you can attack, striking first ain't gonna mean squat then, and you can still roll a cannonball down our necks etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc

Crazy Harborc
23-10-2007, 00:55
I am going to wait until I have the armybook in my eager hands. Until then I am a last choicer.

Bretonnian Lord
23-10-2007, 00:55
I don't think it'll drastically overpower elves but I do think it's a bit odd that an elven archer hits faster than a vampire or chaos lord... :p

RavenBloodwind
23-10-2007, 01:00
I had the pleasure of holding the new High Elf army book in my grubby hands during a rogue trader at the Memphis Battle Bunker on Saturday. The rule is very real.

As to its impact on the game...It will help and I think it suits their background well.

In 3-4th edition units always attacked in initiative order with bonuses and penalties for charging and certain weapons. Because of this, elves with spears usually attacked first when being charged anyway so for an old greybeard this really is a return to something I'm familiar with.

I think Stella Cadente really hits it on the head. You're still expensive troops with T3. You'll suffer to shooting and magic (although the default high magic spell now gives a friendly unit a 5+ ward save). Hit them in the flank to minimize the attacks you receive and remove rank bonuses and they'll crumble just like they're supposed to.

Conversely, charge a unit of swordmasters in the face and you really should expect to have your various body parts handed to you.

Crazy Harborc
23-10-2007, 03:32
I believe you, I do, I do. I WILL be buying that armybook pdq. I am glad none of my regular opponents have a ready to go HE army.....I do:angel:

Stella Cadente
23-10-2007, 03:49
I think Stella Cadente really hits it on the head.
and it will most likely be the first, and only time I ever will in my life on Forums

feintstar
23-10-2007, 06:20
It really not as shiny as it sounds.

I tried to make a 2000 point list using a leaked version of the revamp. It looked something like:
Archmage with BoH
lvl 1 Scroll Caddy
18 Seaguard
18 Seaguard
14 Swordmasters
14 Swordmasters, Banner of Sorc
5 Dragon Princes, Ellyrion
2 RBTs

Now Does anyone think that I am going to be devestatingly effective? Notice I have 1 rank in my Swordmaster units. Goblins will tear this army to shreds with fanatics. Orcs will outnumber madly, but will have a bit of hard time admittedly. Dwarfs will blow it to bits and flank charge with anvils of Doom. Empire will outnumber and detatchment countercharge. Bretonnians will avoid the swordmasters and crush the other piddly units. Chaos might have a little trouble, but they can still throw out a horde of hounds if they need to, while their Hero choices can win a combat vs Swodmasters by themselves.

Its good, but having playtested it myself, it isn't unbeatable by any means. I did lose with them, which proves my point.

pcgamer72
23-10-2007, 06:32
I'm really not sure what the question is asking... I believe that you are asking if we believe the rule is ALWAYS strike first. But then some of the answers don't make much sense.

The SkaerKrow
23-10-2007, 07:59
The rule seems like it's going to take the game to a place where I don't care to follow it (the first step on a surprisingly short trip, at least), and if that proves to be the case, I simply won't.

Chiungalla
23-10-2007, 08:24
The rule was the only way I can think of, to let the high elves players field more infantry. And this will work good, but will not lead to all infantry close combat high elves.

If you wanted to win with the old rules, there was no option to field swordmasters, white lions or phoenix guard, for three reasons:
Shooting, chariots and cavalry.

Shooting would have easily killed all those points.
Chariots and cavalry would have charged and breaked them.

Allways strikes first will remove one of these flaws, the one with the cavalry, and this is very important, because cavalry is played in great numbers on tourneys.

Leaving still the problems with shooting and chariots.

In a tourney, you will not know what you will face, and there will not many infantry units of high elves around, because of gunlines.
If you field many swordmasters or white lions, you will suffer a nearly automatic loose against an wood elf, empire or dwarf "gunline".

In a game at home, where you know your opponent before, nearly all armys can field units to deal with swordmasters.
Every army has magic, chariots, archers, handgunners, crossbowmen or such stuff...


High Elves are getting a lot of improvements, and pretty big ones too. I can't notice anything that reduces HE effectiveness/power.

They keep a lot of old flaws, especial the toughness 3 and low armor.
And they are fewer then before.
Characters, Dragon Princes, Swordmasters, White Lions and Shadow Warriors have become more expensive (and better).

You will face High Elves Armys that have the same number of units, as elite chaos, but the elves are still fragile as hell.

Galatan
23-10-2007, 08:51
the ASF is really overrated for highelves...why? S3, you will still have a horribly hard time wounding almost every opponant. High Elves need it to give them just a little bit better chance in combat. I think it is just overhyped.

gerrymander61
23-10-2007, 08:55
I actually quite like the fluff behind this rule. I always imagine that scene from Lord of the Rings where Isildur cut the ring off of Sauron's hand. Remember the orcs running at the stalwart elves who stood their ground and cut the orcs down as they were running at them? That's how I imagined high elves.

From a gaming perspective I think this rule will be fine once Dark Elves have been updated because right now, Dark Elves will have a very very hard time beating High Elves. Yes, there will always be armies that have trouble with other armies but when the new book comes out, I think the Dark Elves will have a nemesis army so bad that nothing else compares.

Alathir
23-10-2007, 09:19
Its how I see them fighting, so I have no qualms with it.

logan054
23-10-2007, 09:40
I think when people say this is how imagined them fighting that have been watching LoTR far to many times, still i dont think its going to help spearmen that much, i guess, im sure 18 strength 3 always striking first attacks are really going to do jack all (against maybe heavy cav..) I also think its OTT on the shooting units, eek

T10
23-10-2007, 11:02
I think the High Elf models are pretty cool.

-T10

oop
23-10-2007, 11:12
Plus everyone has plenty of cannons to deal with those lion chariots, and cheap archers to deal with great eagles and chariots to deal with swordsmasters and helblasters and organ guns to deal with everything else.




I play VC myself...We donīt have cannons, archers, organ guns, guns, chariots...(The Black Coach?...I donīt fancy using a rare and expensive as hell choice that we all now always struggle to perform well).

Seems like a challenge to me. I guess the only way to react is going magic heavy and max spirit hosts. Itīs not going to be fun to play against HE. Not when movement suddenly doesn't matter. Pity

Chiungalla
23-10-2007, 11:28
The armys that suffer the most, will get there new army books (in GW terms) in a short while.
Do you think this is a coincidence?

Kahadras
23-10-2007, 11:30
I agree with oop that some armies are going to find it much harder than others. SOA really doesn't float my boat as a universal special rule for High Elves. I would have prefered to see it as a rule that allowed models with great weapons in the HE army to strike in initative order (therefore giving White Lions a boost).

Kahadras

oop
23-10-2007, 11:33
The armys that suffer the most, will get there new army books (in GW terms) in a short while.
Do you think this is a coincidence?

Of course it's not...Don't ususally believe in coincidences...
But I don't rely on an army book (the VC one) that I haven't foreseen yet.
I can only use my good old current army book and take it as a challenge.

Master Vampire
23-10-2007, 11:37
There have been very mixed reactions to the question asked, but there isn't much I can comment really. There is nothing wrong or right about anything, it all seems fair. I've made a nice observation regarding the poll, though.

As I had expected, the views are pretty different. Everyone voted for something else, with the answers "Yes, it's the way I picture High Elves fighting" and "No, it's pretty insane to charge and then get hacked apart first!" leading the amount of votes somewhat. And funnily enough, one is from a fluff point of view, the other from a gaming point of view!

Keep the votes coming.

Cheers,
-MV

Nemesis7884
23-10-2007, 11:48
i think from a background story point of view as well as a play technical point of view this rule is absolutly stupid

you have a damn initiative skill that should determine when you hit, for what the hell is that for?? if they want the high elves to hit faster, well increase their initiative

and looking at the background, it makes no sense for me, that high elves should have that kind of skill where dark/wood elves dont

Red_Duke
23-10-2007, 11:53
Vamps will definitely suffer imo - given how badly they struggle already against the redone empire (try taking down a steamtank with vamps, i dare ya!) the Elvses will make things doubly difficult for them. Personally im switching to Tomb Kings at least until the new book comes out (im certainly not taking the vamps to get pwnd at the GT final thats for sure) and then decide what to do there.

Other armies that are probably gonna suffer though: Ogres, Chaos, Beastmen, possbly Dark Elves, Wood Elves (dryads are gonna get caned by the striking first), and maybe the Brets. But i wont be crying about that one ;)

Chiungalla
23-10-2007, 12:17
Try and make some army lists for high elves with the new rules out of the rumours!

There are enough informations here, to get it done, giving or taking a few points.

After making an army list you will see, that a good high elves army would be such a small force, that they couldn't stand any chance without that rule.

And those of you who complain about high elves would be to good vs. vampires, chaos and such armys:

How good would a 2000 points, 50 models army, of high elves be against fanatics, gunlines and such stuff?

They will have armys against which they will do very good, and armys against which they will do very terrible bad. Like all the warhammer armys have.

Oddleg
23-10-2007, 13:05
I'm definately in the "wait and see camp". I do find the points involivng the effects on attacking with light cav of particular interest though.

logan054
23-10-2007, 13:20
When people have said it's not as shiny as it sounds, they just mean that although it does work all the time for all High Elves, without exception, it's not as unbalancing as it might seem.

What a great way to put it, im sure it wont be so bad on on, erm, spearmen... still kinda not happy about RBT's, archers and swordmasters, i dont think it would be so bad it made things that always strike first strike in I order

I think im more dreading archers actually ripping the crap out of flesh hounds and furies, hmm on kill, 16 shots them 8 attacks, i guess im gona be hoping for failed fear tests :-/

Hmm i hope my mum hasnt thrown out my empire since my last visit...

Thommy H
23-10-2007, 13:31
ASF is no more unbalancing than a fast, manoeuvrable army that always gets to charge first anyway. So unless anyone here always loses unless they get to do at least 50% of the charging in a given game, it's not going to make a difference to anything.

Also, do not underestimate the fragility of Toughness 3. A game I played the other day featured a Chaos Dwarf Earthshaker crew holding off a unit of 5 Dark Riders for three turns before killing them - they might as well have had ASF, because they charged and even their horses had higher Initiative than my evil stunties, but they need 5s to wound and I only needed 4s, so I cracked them in the end with only one casualty on my side.

You can have the best special rule in the world, but if your whole army has a 50/50 change of dying at the hands of a determined goblin, it doesn't mean anything.

Count Zero
23-10-2007, 14:03
ASF has been said it wont have a huge effect on the tougher races, but will strongly effect the other elves!

currently Black Guard are 16pts a model and the new PG are 15pts. who will win? i think its obvious PG will, esp as soon as the PG outnumber the BG will auto break.

Bender
23-10-2007, 14:12
i still think the rule should stay "high elves always strike per initiative order"


this way my wardancers won't be affraid of charging a unit consisting on 10 archers... as it is now i'll need to use a dance to roll a 4+ (as we will have both the same rule) and will take 1 attack from my wardancers... ok i can charge the side of this unit... so what??? i'll have to strike the side of a unit with my 18 pts wardancers "all their lives trained in using close combat weapons" to be able to gain the combat to a 12 pts archer... who ain't a specialist in closecombat warfare


hoooorraaaaayyyy for forest spirits, but my army lacks on them

Scythe
23-10-2007, 14:23
My main gripe with the rule is that it removes any urge to charge high elves. Why bother? It is not that you get any advantage out of it anyway. Moreso, you are only giving those spearmen an extra rank to attack you with...

So... the key to beating high elves becomes either sitting back and shooting them to bits (the option for the fragile races), or loading up on tough stuff unaffected by those S3 attacks (tada, all cavalry armies roll in again). Both of these options lead to boring play, imho.

Chiungalla
23-10-2007, 14:25
this way my wardancers won't be affraid of charging a unit consisting on 10 archers... as it is now i'll need to use a dance to roll a 4+ (as we will have both the same rule) and will take 1 attack from my wardancers...

Read the rules!

You will not need to roll, because you have the higher initiative.

So you take the dance, and kill nearly all archers with 2 attacks per wardancer with strengh 4.

Scythe
23-10-2007, 14:28
So you take the dance, and kill nearly all archers with 2 attacks per wardancer with strengh 4.

Wardancers doing the dance lose 1 attack per model. So only a puny 1 attack per wardancer (guess why that dance isn't popular at all ;))

superknijn
23-10-2007, 14:31
This rule reminds me alot of that scene at the start of the first Lord of the Rings film. You know with the Elves cutting up some Orcs when the latter charge them. Could be what the designers had in mind.

Chiungalla
23-10-2007, 14:36
Okay, but you will go first, and will win the combat.


My main gripe with the rule is that it removes any urge to charge high elves. Why bother? It is not that you get any advantage out of it anyway. Moreso, you are only giving those spearmen an extra rank to attack you with...

... or denie those cavalry the +2 strengh of there lances or the chariots the impact hits.

If you will sit back and wait that the high elves will charge, you need a gunline, or you will loose.

BigRob
23-10-2007, 14:49
Chances are after the first round you'll be going second against the elves anyway. Charging in is s till an option, lances, spears, impact hits and any other charging special rules will still be good. Of course it will be best to have a good armour save or toughness to back yourself up.

Failing that flanking is always handy. Deny the rank bonus and even with strike first your likely to win with static CR (+3 rank, +1 Standard,+1Outnumbering, +1 Flank, He gets no rank bonus...).

Its not such a big deal. Finally if in doubt, shoot them. Most armies have some shooting (unlucky Chaos boys) and my imperial mortar loves big chunky units of spear elves huddled together, as would a dwarven Grudge Thrower, An Orc Rock Lobba, a Gnoblar Scrap launcher, etc etc.

Call it codex creep if you like, but all armies change when the book is released. They havnt made many new models for the High Elves and look at the complaining. If they didnt have something new in the book imagine how angry people would be. Now, I am a bit worried about what they will do to Vampire Counts and Dark Elves....

logan054
23-10-2007, 14:55
ASF is no more unbalancing than a fast, manoeuvrable army that always gets to charge first anyway. So unless anyone here always loses unless they get to do at least 50% of the charging in a given game, it's not going to make a difference to anything.

Because Brets are balanced... not exactly the greatest comparison me thinks :) still most of these armies are designed this way by players choice rather than inherent trait of race, this is something your get for wearing a dress and pointy ears, makes sense (yes i love elves, honest ;) )


This rule reminds me alot of that scene at the start of the first Lord of the Rings film. You know with the Elves cutting up some Orcs when the latter charge them. Could be what the designers had in mind.

Oh yes i know, i said, i think the designers watched this movie far to many times

night2501
23-10-2007, 15:00
well the true is that, is notas shiny as it seems, the actual trap lies in that odd army distribution, first they must take at least 2 core units, that are not cavalry, so if they want cavalry they must use special slots, second all the hard hiters, SM WL chariots heavy cavalry are specials too, plus they are expensive, the hard units are specials too PG WL and heavy cavalry, and let`s not forget the scouts and fast cavalry asre specials too... plus all of them are expensive.
this present the folowing problems:
-at 2K HE can not present all of the elements as they have 6 slots but have like 9 options, meaning they will lack in one or 2 departments.
-the MSU aproach is restircted/sealed for HE, only unit that could use that aproach are spears, SM WL PG can be formed in unit sof 5, but burning one of those 6 special slots for a unit that won`t stand to even to a breeze, plus puting comand in them means you are actually expending more points and potentially giving more standarts to the enemy, the unit might be of 10+ at least to hav esome impact, but then a flank charge can surely destroy you, you might hit first but with only 2 models hiting... so we are stuck that you have to take a solid block of 15 to be able to resist some shoting and stay in combat, and that`s 225 points before comand, and 6 units of that is 1350 points, before addingcore units and chars mmm locks like the will be able to take only 5 of those 5 special slots...

yes some HE think they will be able to use the MSU aprach with WL stuborn and cavalry/chariots, the problem is as above, you get really restircted and your mdoel counts is really low, even iif you take the combo above that include 3 units and you have 6 slots, and as we saw you hav ethe point cost issue XD

wath a big mess will have the HE once the book come out

DivineVisitor
23-10-2007, 15:01
One one hand im not too bothered about it... and on the other it seems rediculus.

If i think about it affecting my Lizardmen... it doesn't bother me much, the Saurus can handle such attacks and the Skinks don't plan on getting into combat in the first place.

However against my Slaaneshi Daemons... i will be an even smaller army than they are, striking last if i go into combat with WS4 and T3... sure i get a 5+ ward but that still means 2/3 of the wounds inflicted on me will end in casullties. I rely on charging in the front, side and rear with my speedy Daemons. I imagine doing this to say a unit of swordmasters, they then attack first hitting on 3's and wounding on 2's :cries:
Or say charging archers with my speedy mounted Daemonettes, they then shoot me, attack me combat and then i get some attacks back. Sure i will probably still win, but by the time ive finished charging and breaking units il probably have nothing left on the table to finish off the rest of the army :p.
Mind you i guess Slaaneshi Daemons are pretty poo against most armies and it just means more of the same hehe.

Scythe
23-10-2007, 15:13
... or denie those cavalry the +2 strengh of there lances or the chariots the impact hits.

If you will sit back and wait that the high elves will charge, you need a gunline, or you will loose.

Please also read the second paragraph of my post, repeated for your convenience:


So... the key to beating high elves becomes either sitting back and shooting them to bits (the option for the fragile races), or loading up on tough stuff unaffected by those S3 attacks (tada, all cavalry armies roll in again). Both of these options lead to boring play, imho.

On cavalry and chariots: those are normally charging either way, because of their superior movement, with the expection maybe against other cavalry (in which case I again point to the second paragraph of my first post).

Chiungalla
23-10-2007, 15:19
On cavalry and chariots: those are normally charging either way, because of their superior movement, with the expection maybe against other cavalry (in which case I again point to the second paragraph of my first post).

And with the other exception of good players playing against them.
It is easy to lure a unit of cavalry or chariots in a position, where you can charge them.

Finnigan2004
23-10-2007, 15:33
ASF is no more unbalancing than a fast, manoeuvrable army that always gets to charge first anyway. So unless anyone here always loses unless they get to do at least 50% of the charging in a given game, it's not going to make a difference to anything.



I actually very much agree with this. When I go to a competitive tournament, I generally take a very fast army because they do tend to have a large advantage most of the time. This does not have to be Brettonians-- I usually use chaos to achieve this sort of very fast army. I have come to notice that getting the charge on infantry with my daemon prince or chaos knights does not take a great deal of skill really.

I think that given the state of warhammer, expensive infantry with a toughness of 3 are not viable without some sort of game mechanic altering rule. Too many units are simply too fast, and getting the charge and first strike on such units will nearly always mean that you annihilate them. The result of this is that such infantry are not viable in a competitive game.

I also have to challenge the naysayers to come up with a different rule that would have made high elves viable. I keep hearing that there should have been restrictions like it should not apply to flank charges, or it should be based on initiative. I am not as certain as others that these rules would be sufficient to make such units viable. With the cost of such infantry, high elf armies will probably be fairly small and outnumbered. This means that in a competitive environment, there will probably be ample opportunities to get a flank charge on them.

In conclusion, I think that the wisest thing for people to do is to wait for the actual book to come out and let a number of people play some games using it before talking about how broken it is.

scarvet
23-10-2007, 15:56
Well, from what I see so far is that we will have the good old HE Arrow/magic storm supported by cavalry.
O, a mage hero so that I can have a dragon......
For Core, I think we will see a lot of 10 archer units.
If dragon price got the 0-1 lift and cost the same to the current one, we will never see sliver helm again.
And I wonder what will rare be for.

I just think the rule should read "strike in initiative order in the first round of combat". So that the can strike first most of the time, but not every time. And yes, I worry about the 9(!) type of special chose when there is only 3 for core.

Thommy H
23-10-2007, 16:25
Because Brets are balanced... not exactly the greatest comparison me thinks :) still most of these armies are designed this way by players choice rather than inherent trait of race, this is something your get for wearing a dress and pointy ears, makes sense (yes i love elves, honest ;) )

Did I even mention Bretonnians? I mean, yes, they're a good example of the kind of army I'm talking about, but you shouldn't jump to conclusions - I could mean Dark Elves (the army I had in mind, since I whupped them with my Chaos Dwarfs the other day) or Wood Elves or certain Empire builds or all-wolfrider Goblins or...well...whatever...

The point is that none of those armies are unbeatable and they all might as well have the ASF rule, because they always get the charge and, in the case of Elves, have high Initiative too, so will strike first in subsequent rounds.

So, unless cavalry with high Initiative is inherently unbalanced, ASF is not game-breaking at all.

Baindread
23-10-2007, 16:30
I don't like the rule but I don't think it will be overpowered. In fact, the HE army will probably still be somewhere below average.

Chiungalla
23-10-2007, 16:46
If dragon price got the 0-1 lift and cost the same to the current one, we will never see sliver helm again.
And I wonder what will rare be for.

Dragon Princes are more expensive in points.

But we will never see Silver Helms in there old job again.
They will be heavy armored alternative for Reavers, not a good cheaper alternative for Dragon Princes any more.


I just think the rule should read "strike in initiative order in the first round of combat".

And how will you balance an ability, that works fine against some armys and is worthless against others?

If you take into acount, that it will work in the high elves favour 50% of the times, and calculate the point-costs in this way, you will end up with high elves underpriced against low-initiative opponents and overprieced against high-initiative opponents.

logan054
23-10-2007, 17:31
Did I even mention Bretonnians? I mean, yes, they're a good example of the kind of army I'm talking about, but you shouldn't jump to conclusions - I could mean Dark Elves (the army I had in mind, since I whupped them with my Chaos Dwarfs the other day) or Wood Elves or certain Empire builds or all-wolfrider Goblins or...well...whatever...

The point is that none of those armies are unbeatable and they all might as well have the ASF rule, because they always get the charge and, in the case of Elves, have high Initiative too, so will strike first in subsequent rounds.

I think you should read my post again, the kind of comparison you are making really can only be made against brets, other armies have a choice as to being more infantry based than fast moving. High elves do not have a choice about having always striking first as far as i can see.

Im 100% sure that the new high elves are easily beatable however i think this is going to be more down to list tailoring and army construction rather than actually out playing the game, again this is the same with brets :)


So, unless cavalry with high Initiative is inherently unbalanced, ASF is not game-breaking at all.

first Intiative has nothing to do with cavalry, they all about getting the charge and breaking the enemy on the charge, secondly on a note about warhammer i actually tend to call 6th + 7th ed cavalry hammer so you take what you will from that last statement :)

WarBoss Nodrog
23-10-2007, 17:49
ill wait to see how it plays in game before i make any judgements on it. although im unsure how certain armys are expected to counter it. (daemonic lists mainly)

grimkeeper
23-10-2007, 18:43
As others have said strikeing in I order would have been better IMO, Pheonix Guard 4+ ward save ,cause fear ,st4 , Sword Masters st5 ,neither are 0-1 unit now .However as its be properly play tested i suposse it will be ok.

Thommy H
23-10-2007, 20:33
I think you should read my post again, the kind of comparison you are making really can only be made against brets, other armies have a choice as to being more infantry based than fast moving. High elves do not have a choice about having always striking first as far as i can see.

You misunderstand my point - unless an all-cavalry, high-initiative army (which is easily possible in many lists) is unbeatable, then ASF isn't unbalanced because it amounts to the same thing. I'm not saying that the new High Elves will all be cavalry or anything like that, or even talking about the overall composition of an entire type of army, but of specific builds - an all-cavalry, high-initiative army "always strikes first" to all intents and purposes, so it's nothing new or invincible.


Im 100% sure that the new high elves are easily beatable however i think this is going to be more down to list tailoring and army construction rather than actually out playing the game, again this is the same with brets :)

And I kind of disagree with this. Yeah, the "all-comers" armies may have to be altered slightly to fit in with the possibility of facing High Elves, but I don't think ASF is powerful enough (see the above argument) to be unbeatable by certain armies. As I've mentioned - my Chaos Dwarfs (M3, I2) faced Dark Elves (M5, I5, with lots of Dark Riders) and won. I think I may have struck first in one combat round maximum. We've all faced armies that always strike first and won...we just don't realise it.


first Intiative has nothing to do with cavalry, they all about getting the charge and breaking the enemy on the charge

But manoeuvrability and speed is highest in cavalry units, so they can pick their charges, unlike infantry. Combine it with high Initiative, and the models will strike first almost all the time. That's my point.

logan054
23-10-2007, 22:39
You misunderstand my point - unless an all-cavalry, high-initiative army (which is easily possible in many lists) is unbeatable, then ASF isn't unbalanced because it amounts to the same thing. I'm not saying that the new High Elves will all be cavalry or anything like that, or even talking about the overall composition of an entire type of army, but of specific builds - an all-cavalry, high-initiative army "always strikes first" to all intents and purposes, so it's nothing new or invincible.

Your making the assumption that High elf are going to be a cavalry army, im sorry but i dont believe a rather goof rule can be dismissed because you feel everyone plays warhammer this way, so im sorry but you point is rather flawed, look in the army list section on look on a high elf site, you will see plenty of infantry based armies, hell last time i played a high elf army he had plenty of infantry, i think your point is far to based on the enviroments much like GTs.


And I kind of disagree with this. Yeah, the "all-comers" armies may have to be altered slightly to fit in with the possibility of facing High Elves, but I don't think ASF is powerful enough (see the above argument) to be unbeatable by certain armies. As I've mentioned - my Chaos Dwarfs (M3, I2) faced Dark Elves (M5, I5, with lots of Dark Riders) and won. I think I may have struck first in one combat round maximum. We've all faced armies that always strike first and won...we just don't realise it.

As i said your basing you opinion on every one using heavy cavalry based armies, but if your going to talk about how your army beat loads of light cav not the kinda cav your going to be facing, dragon prince, dragon princes with the same punch as chosen knights (this im not saying is unfair btw, im just point this out), i dont think thats even a remotely fair comparison, its like saying well i bet a unit goblins with 10 chosen warrirors.


But manoeuvrability and speed is highest in cavalry units, so they can pick their charges, unlike infantry. Combine it with high Initiative, and the models will strike first almost all the time. That's my point.

Yes i know, hence why i believe 6th & 7th is cavalry hammer, still as i said cavarly armies arnt the only ones in use these day, hell i try not to use them as i find the Khorne cavalry army about as much fun to use as watching paint dry. So if we assume that not everyone is going to be using hardcore cav list then do you not think certain units may cause certain players concern, certainly some more than others. These units would also be more than able to take apart the cavalry forces you mention with ease.

To defeat these units i believe its going to take far more redesigning of a list than is normally necessary for facing a opponent which is down to army rule.

Mad Doc Grotsnik
23-10-2007, 22:52
For High Elf players, old and new, it seems like a gift from the elven heavens. But I've seen some others complain about it. People who don't play HE think it will be too powerful in tournaments, and in any other given circumstance.



Stuff tournaments. Tournament games are very much the minority.

I can handle it. The correct selection of Artillery (why yes Mr Claus, those two Mortars you delivered are absolutely ticketyboo for this job!) and some Fast Cavalry, and the drastically tiny number of High Elves will find themselves on the back foot pretty damned quickly.

Although I wasn't sold on it at first, now I've bashed around the numbers, and written a couple of 'uber' armylists, I'm not scared at all. For any Warhammer army, the mauling of a single unit is a concern. For the High Elves, it can be curtains. I don't care how many attacks you get, or how hard you hit, when I knock off your ranks, your going to struggle. Especially when you realise just how difficult it will be for them to guard their flanks. Seriously. 1,000 points, and you get 4 units on the table, IF you skimp on characters.....

Bring it on Sonny Jim......the Mortars, Pistoliers and Flagellants are more than ready to see your pointy **** 'orf my laaaaand'

heldane
23-10-2007, 23:23
I'll admit I was disbelieving of it when I read it on here, but I read it in WD today.

I think its taking it to far in the wrong direction. A special rule that would alow them to fight in initiative order each turn, even when charged, would have been better.

Although I do feel tempted by them as a tournament force. The spearmen do still get to fight in three ranks right? :skull:

Dan

sing Sang a song
24-10-2007, 05:44
i think its really insane to give swordmasters 2 attacks greatsword and strike first. and making 3special choice for each 1000 points army that only spells trouble for other armies. well yea they might be outnumbered and everything but get to strike first eventhough 'I' charged them first is pretty sharp.

Chiungalla
24-10-2007, 05:52
A special rule that would alow them to fight in initiative order each turn, even when charged, would have been better.

You can simply not balance the point costs of an ability that will allways work against some armys, sometimes work against others, and never against some.

No matter how many points you take for this ability, they will be to cheap against some, and to overprieced against some other opponents.

But allways strikes first can be priced very good, because it will allways work.


Your making the assumption that High elf are going to be a cavalry army

No, he isn't.


I'm not saying that the new High Elves will all be cavalry or anything like that, or even talking about the overall composition of an entire type of army, but of specific builds - an all-cavalry, high-initiative army "always strikes first" to all intents and purposes, so it's nothing new or invincible.


dragon princes with the same punch as chosen knights (this im not saying is unfair btw, im just point this out)

With the same punch as chosen chaos knights in the first round of combat if they charge. If they don't break the opponent, or if they don't charge, they are in serious trouble, Chosen Chaos Knight aren't.

And Chosen Chaos Knights have better toughness and better armor.


Yes i know, hence why i believe 6th & 7th is cavalry hammer

And the allways strikes first rule for the high elves is a good way to reduce this flaw. Now you have infantry that can beat cavalry, and an army that will use infantry.

Scythe
24-10-2007, 09:14
And I kind of disagree with this. Yeah, the "all-comers" armies may have to be altered slightly to fit in with the possibility of facing High Elves, but I don't think ASF is powerful enough (see the above argument) to be unbeatable by certain armies. As I've mentioned - my Chaos Dwarfs (M3, I2) faced Dark Elves (M5, I5, with lots of Dark Riders) and won. I think I may have struck first in one combat round maximum. We've all faced armies that always strike first and won...we just don't realise it.


That is because you play an army which doesn't depend on getting the charge at all. (Chaos) Dwarves are made for wars of attrition. Other armies, however, NEED their charge and the striking first that comes along with it (think about Orges, Dark Elves, or Chaos, for example).


You can simply not balance the point costs of an ability that will allways work against some armys, sometimes work against others, and never against some.

No matter how many points you take for this ability, they will be to cheap against some, and to overprieced against some other opponents.

But allways strikes first can be priced very good, because it will allways work.


Heh, sorry, but I had to laugh out when I read this. Balance? Abilities that only work against some armies? Have you even looked trough other army books? Dwarves hate Greenskins only, Goblins fear Elves only, magic items are more effective against some armies, and this is just the tip of the iceberg. An Ogre army completely ignores the fear causing aspect of an undead army. The points elves (in general) pay for their I5 score doesn't mather a bit in a game against Dwarves. How can that all be balanced? [/sarcasm]

Besides that point, always strike first is also of very different value against different armies (just like always strike on initiative is, btw). Against Ogres or Dark Elves, who live and die with their charge, it is a priceless ability. Against a Dwarf or Empire gunline, which will probably get 0-1 charges of themselves in the entire battle, it is almost worthless / wasted points. Of course, that is besides characters and troops which have always strike first themselves. You are paying for an ability which doesn't work against those, that cannot be balanced, can it?

In the end, always strike first is just a stronger version of always strike on initiative, not more balanced/easily priced in the least.

Chiungalla
24-10-2007, 09:31
How can that all be balanced?

It isn't, what proves my point.

You have a hard time, if you play undead vs. ogres (but not so hard, because the undead ignore the fear of the ogres, too), and you have a very hard time when you play orcs and goblins vs. dwarfs.


Besides that point, always strike first is also of very different value against different armies

That is true.
But my point was not that abilitys shouldn't be of different value against different armys.

My point was, that powerfull abilitys shouldn't work very good against one army, and are completle worthless against others.

I too see all the problems with hatred, high initiative and such stuff.
But they are very weak, and therefore cheap, compared to "allways strikes first" or "strikes in initiative order", which makes the problem smaller for such stuff.

logan054
24-10-2007, 09:55
You can simply not balance the point costs of an ability that will allways work against some armys, sometimes work against others, and never against some.

No matter how many points you take for this ability, they will be to cheap against some, and to overprieced against some other opponents.

But allways strikes first can be priced very good, because it will allways work.



No, he isn't.

Well either way his statement comes across as saying the rule isnt going to be that good as certain builds gain little benefit, to me this comes across as the as someones. Its like saying well magic isnt that good in a skaven army with they dont use alot of wizards or detachments isnt that good if empire dont use them. Im this line of thinking dosnt just throw a rule out the window.


With the same punch as chosen chaos knights in the first round of combat if they charge. If they don't break the opponent, or if they don't charge, they are in serious trouble, Chosen Chaos Knight aren't.

And Chosen Chaos Knights have better toughness and better armor.

Did i say this was a bad thing? no i didnt, sure its only for one round but hell i think a unit thats 6 wide + champion have 12 high WS and S attacks is going to break most infantry on the charge at any rate. Again this wasnt a rant but more point out how he compared his chaos dwarfs to fightning an all cav army which was by no means on the same level. As i said you cant compare light cab forces to heavy cav multi attack forces. chosen knights are also a 0-1 choice ;)


And the always strikes first rule for the high elves is a good way to reduce this flaw. Now you have infantry that can beat cavalry, and an army that will use infantry.

Yeah cool, great, and the rest of the world? sure its fair on spearmen its when you look at the elite units likes swordmasters and all the heroes that will have great weapons now it becomes silly, rules on the these units more than help counter heavy cav they completely destroy them. Now have i thought of ways of dealing with these units, yes, it isnt hard still i do think that some of these rules arnt as well thought as people like to think.

MutantMaggot
24-10-2007, 10:15
Have you ever seen the Fellowship of the Ring film? (I personally prefer the books, though) That scene where the orcs charge and are met by high elven blades as they charge? THAT is what the fluff represents -- thousands of years of discipline and training -- even young elves have lived several human lifespans! Remember, other armies will get their own rules. Skaven already practicall have them. Only Orcs will suffer, as Waagh!ing doesn't reall help when your black orcs go straight ito a unit of striking first swordmasters.

Overall, it's a very good rule, though armies will suffer until they get an updae. Meaning my O&G army is going to be gathering dust or a few years.

Scythe
24-10-2007, 10:35
It isn't, what proves my point.

You have a hard time, if you play undead vs. ogres (but not so hard, because the undead ignore the fear of the ogres, too), and you have a very hard time when you play orcs and goblins vs. dwarfs.

That is true.
But my point was not that abilitys shouldn't be of different value against different armys.

While that is a great ultimate goal, I do not think such thing can be achieved in a game like warhammer. Armies are different by nature, and some things will be more effective against some armies as other things. Bows will always be not really effective against a dwarf army, while they'll kill a daemon army with ease. Taking that away would take away any variation between armies.


My point was, that powerfull abilitys shouldn't work very good against one army, and are completle worthless against others.

Good point, but I regard always striking first as a very powerfull ability, which does work very well against some armies, and makes practically no difference against others (hence the orges/elves vs gunlines example I gave earlier).


I too see all the problems with hatred, high initiative and such stuff.
But they are very weak, and therefore cheap, compared to "allways strikes first" or "strikes in initiative order", which makes the problem smaller for such stuff.

Yes, that's why I don't really have a problem with goblins fearing elves or dwarves hating orcs. The actual game influence is there, but it is rather small. However, a rule like always strikes first shatters the core around which some armies are build, which cannot be the right intention imho.

Do not get me wrong, I am not against rules which make high elf infantry viable on the battlefield. However, I do not think giving them always strike first was the correct way to do this. Like said, it affects some armies drastically, while having little effect on others. On the other hand: look at how they made dark elf warriors more viable: a simple 2 pts drop. Affects every army in the same way, right? Now, I am also not arguing for a possibly 'boring' pts drop only, but a rule which changes basic gameplay so drastically for some was not a good idea imho.

logan054
24-10-2007, 11:38
Have you ever seen the Fellowship of the Ring film? (I personally prefer the books, though) That scene where the orcs charge and are met by high elven blades as they charge? THAT is what the fluff represents -- thousands of years of discipline and training -- even young elves have lived several human lifespans! Remember, other armies will get their own rules

Im sorry dude but i can tell no matter how long i train with a sword in the end i will only get so good, the body has limits, LoTR is not the best reference for this, its about making something look good, some how i dont think they would have showed the orcs charging in, a few dying and the elves getting butchered. This really dosnt make a good movie which is for broad spectrum of viewers!


Skaven already practicall have them. Only Orcs will suffer, as Waagh!ing doesn't reall help when your black orcs go straight ito a unit of striking first swordmasters.

Overall, it's a very good rule, though armies will suffer until they get an updae. Meaning my O&G army is going to be gathering dust or a few years.

Its such a good rule that you dont want you use your new army which is a 7th ed release? its not like your army has even been out for years or anything? i think really saying its a such good rule and then saying i wont use my army anymore is kinda shooting yourself in foot a, tad ;)

Sadly i dont think army rules should have such a massive effect on the game, to me this really seems like a way to boost sales, nothing more, then next new army will come out, bam, we all need to buy a unit type that we stopped or never used because of the yet another swanky rule.

I think its damn obvious its about getting everyone to buy chariots and high elves to buy RBT's to kill the chariots with.

Chiungalla
24-10-2007, 12:07
Yeah cool, great, and the rest of the world?

They will get there army books in the next years.
If you want to change the warhammer rules, you have two options.

1.) Make it in tiny steps over several editions and many years.
2.) Make a great step, and don't care for balance to older books and stuff, and make a new balance when the new books arrive.

MutantMaggot
24-10-2007, 12:10
Im sorry dude but i can tell no matter how long i train with a sword in the end i will only get so good, the body has limits, LoTR is not the best reference for this, its about making something look good, some how i dont think they would have showed the orcs charging in, a few dying and the elves getting butchered. This really dosnt make a good movie which is for broad spectrum of viewers!

True, but 'only so good' may be why everyone has the SoA, not just a few individual warriors ... (as opposed to armies like O&G where their rule doesn't apply to some units)



Its such a good rule that you dont want you use your new army which is a 7th ed release? its not like your army has even been out for years or anything? i think really saying its a such good rule and then saying i wont use my army anymore is kinda shooting yourself in foot a, tad ;)

Perhaps I should have added ':D' at the end. It was not really meant to be overly serious. Against most armies it should still do well, as HE cannot really cope with prolonged combats. Besides, I play to have fun, not win. Though for a chance of winning HE will find themselves facing my Empire.



Sadly i dont think army rules should have such a massive effect on the game, to me this really seems like a way to boost sales, nothing more, then next new army will come out, bam, we all need to buy a unit type that we stopped or never used because of the yet another swanky rule.

But isn't every release also designed to make money? Remember that GW i a company that needs to make money. Though it tries to please us, all it comes down to is making a successful business.



I think its damn obvious its about getting everyone to buy chariots and high elves to buy RBT's to kill the chariots with.

Overall, I think that's generally the wrong attitude -- the book was created by games developers trying to make the game better -- let's face it, what it comes down to is whether you want armies that are growing more powerful, with better fluff, or whether you want almost the same army list in each army book, with armies all fielding the same armies time and time again.

Warhammer is about tactics, not moaning. ;)

Nkari
24-10-2007, 12:25
My only gripe on the new rules is that archers dont shoot in 2 ranks.. else I think the new High elves are pretty "meh".. A disapointment.. I was looking forward to collecting them, but now.. Im so "meh" about it..

MutantMaggot
24-10-2007, 12:26
Same here. I was going to collect them, but decided otherwise. Still, I like the rules, even if I dislike most of the miniatures. ;)

Nkari
24-10-2007, 12:32
Cant say I like the rules, cant say I disslike the rules.. They are just so bland imho..

Cheaper spearmen(needed), no price change on the most expensive missile troop cept thunderers, wich are tons better.. Sea guard 2 pts more.. get 5+ or 4+ save in CC, shoots in 2 ranks and have spears all of this archers lack.. Will anyone ever buy archers except to make them into sea guard ?

MutantMaggot
24-10-2007, 12:36
Yes, the rules are bland, but at SoA gives them character. Overall, I think the new HE should work well.

Besides, as most people know, they were designe to fill gaps in the fantasy release due to problems with VC, DE, skaven and others. The update wasn't really that necessary.

Harky
24-10-2007, 13:00
IMO the rule is not going to effect the game to much, armies would have to be tailored a little differently when facing HE and I think that after a few months we'll be reading a lot of strategies on how to deal with ASF. Also like many pointed out HE are not Chosen Chaos warriors we're talking about S3 T3 troops that can easily be outnumbered by almost any army.

Chiungalla
24-10-2007, 13:08
Sea guard 2 pts more.. get 5+ or 4+ save in CC, shoots in 2 ranks and have spears all of this archers lack.. Will anyone ever buy archers except to make them into sea guard ?

They will not shoot in 2 ranks, if you believe the eyewitness of the forum user, and they have bows, no longbows.

And yes, I will still field archers, because they allways did fine for there points.
And cheaper (by one point) and better (with allways strikes first), they will not do worse then before.

logan054
24-10-2007, 13:14
True, but 'only so good' may be why everyone has the SoA, not just a few individual warriors ... (as opposed to armies like O&G where their rule doesn't apply to some units)

Yes that is clear why they all have it, as i said your only going to get so good no matter how hard you train, i dont think this rule actually reflects this, really it just shows GW didnt put much thought into this.


Perhaps I should have added ':D' at the end. It was not really meant to be overly serious. Against most armies it should still do well, as HE cannot really cope with prolonged combats. Besides, I play to have fun, not win. Though for a chance of winning HE will find themselves facing my Empire.

They dont need to cope with prolonged combats, spearmen have enough attacks to happily see off most charges, the options to deal with these units are sadly limited, even more so than others!


But isn't every release also designed to make money? Remember that GW i a company that needs to make money. Though it tries to please us, all it comes down to is making a successful business.

That is what i said, I dont believe i said otherwise, sadly like many people my concern isnt on GW profits, my concern is on how im spending my money, personally im less reluctant to spend my hard earned cashed if i feel a company is trying to trick me into buying things i dont really want to. So to make money you should also be trying to please current customers rather than bringing in new blood (well maybe more a happy medium).

Im sorry but the argument that its a business can only be used so many times, im customer, customers are just a important infact more important than the stock you sell, without customers who will buy the stock. Another thing you will learn from retail is that every customer counts because at the end of the day you want them to come back and spend more money.



Overall, I think that's generally the wrong attitude -- the book was created by games developers trying to make the game better -- let's face it, what it comes down to is whether you want armies that are growing more powerful, with better fluff, or whether you want almost the same army list in each army book, with armies all fielding the same armies time and time again.

Warhammer is about tactics, not moaning. ;)

The thing with being human is i can choose to think how i like, the like what i like, to hate what i like so really i unless people should actually think exactly the same way you cant really have a wrong attitude.

Warhammer is a hobby, to me its certainly not just about tactics, i certainly enjoy all aspects of the game and personally i have already started a few topics on how to deal with this new elf army rather than moan however it certainly dosnt mean i have to like how they have changed the army or even makes me want to spend more money.

The funny thing is before i read these rumours and saw some of the models i was going to do a high elf army so had a good a evil army..

MutantMaggot
24-10-2007, 13:26
Err ... all that's reasonable, Logan, and I'd feel stupid arguing with the logic (and I dislike arguing as it is), but don't assume that when I said 'Warhammer is about tactics, not moaning. ;)', I meant it as such -- the idea was simply that moaning should not be part of the hobby. Mostly. And I agree with you when you will say (reading your mind here) that the moaning is partly GW's fault, but it depends on what the moaning is about. :)

Harky
24-10-2007, 13:29
If you like it or not it's out there and you'll have think about dealing with it however you choose.
People were sreaming DOOM!!!11!! when they heard about the impact hits of Ogres on the charge, they were screaming DOOM!!11!! when they heard what the Anvil can do for the Dwarves etc.
EVERY new army will bring with it powerfull new stuff/rules and people who don't like the army will moan, people who like the army probably won't, but at the end of the day it's just a game and if you'll become a doom sayer with every new release because the design team wants to bring something new to the table then maybee you should play a different system.

MutantMaggot
24-10-2007, 13:30
Yep. That's right. Whiners go and play LotR. Hurry up, there!

Varath- Lord Impaler
24-10-2007, 13:35
Yes that is clear why they all have it, as i said your only going to get so good no matter how hard you train, i dont think this rule actually reflects this, really it just shows GW didnt put much thought into this.

Please dont accuse GW of not thinking.

Please, by all means, make up a fluffy characterful rule with gives High Elves the combat advantage they require which isnt overly complicated

MutantMaggot
24-10-2007, 13:41
Why is it that when I say it everyone disagrees, but when someone else says practically gthe same thing it sounds so much more logical? :mad: :D

Yes ... basicall, Lord Varath couldn't have put it better. :)

Scythe
24-10-2007, 13:47
Please, by all means, make up a fluffy characterful rule with gives High Elves the combat advantage they require which isnt overly complicated

Without too much thinking (so do not take this too serious ;)):

+1 to hit enemies

-1 to hit high elves in combat

spears always strike on initiative

fight in 4 ranks

always stand and shoot

armour piercing

stubborn on turn charged

need more? ;)

MutantMaggot
24-10-2007, 13:52
Not overly complicated? Not meaning to take it seriously, but each combat you'd have to remember which of those each unit had. If every unit had all o those, though ... :eek:

logan054
24-10-2007, 13:53
MutantMaggot - well i do try :) i know what your saying about the tactics still i dont feel this rule actually helps inprove the balance much, i think it takes away several viable tactics which in itself is silly, it actually puts you off using infantry (which i feel is just daft).

On a side note, not a chance, im not starting yet another GW game!

Harky - already figures out ways round it thankyou, dosnt mean i have to be happy and should stay quiet about these things, i certainly never saw the doom in what you mentioned nor in this rules i simply dont like it, saying that i never understood how just because someone was fat he got impact hits when a minotaur atleast has horns to do it with..

Varath- Lord Impaler -so you would like me to do something GW actually didnt do then? I think the stats are all fine and extra rules for units liek stubborn, extra attacks on dargon princes and swordmasters.

How about shield wall for spearmen so they still gain the extra +1 for shield when armed with a spear just like a normal hand weapon and shield, they have high I anyways so need for more changes :) Still i had no issue with spears striking first either, i think that should be a general rule for spears anyways.

Harky
24-10-2007, 14:03
logan054 - I was talking in a more general manner, not at you personally, it's just we have threads like these every time a new book comes out and after a month or so they go away either because:

A) People find new armybook rumours to b1tch about
B) Realise that as a whole whatever the thing that was so horrible in the beginning really isn't that big a deal.

MutantMaggot
24-10-2007, 14:09
Personally, if not a whiner, I find the best thing to do is look at the rumour roundup, and the background forums.

But unfortunately I ventured into the light recently, and have been thoroughly blinded by the bright rays of whining.

Scythe
24-10-2007, 14:18
Not overly complicated? Not meaning to take it seriously, but each combat you'd have to remember which of those each unit had. If every unit had all o those, though ... :eek:

Obviously only 1 of those rules would be employed (army wide, tough some of them just affect a few units). But then, I never understood the obsession with army specific special rules anyway. I mean, isn't it enough to have a slightly different stat line, equipment set and pts cost? Does everything and their dogs absolutely need a special rule?

MutantMaggot
24-10-2007, 14:24
It makes them individual. It makes skaven different from goblins, and swordsmen different from marauders

logan054
24-10-2007, 14:26
logan054 - I was talking in a more general manner, not at you personally, it's just we have threads like these every time a new book comes out and after a month or so they go away either because:

A) People find new armybook rumours to b1tch about
B) Realise that as a whole whatever the thing that was so horrible in the beginning really isn't that big a deal.



Thats cool man, i was thinking of getting my boomstick out ;)

I think i tend to be Scythe on not really know why whole armies need a special rule however it obviously it isnt enough for armies to just have different state lines, equipment, unit types, the odd unit with a special rule. dear god i fear what they will do to chaos when they finally redo them...

MutantMaggot
24-10-2007, 14:29
You fear what they'll do to chaos? All they can do is make it more powerful -- you can't complain, you're a fellow chaos player! :eek:

Finnigan2004
24-10-2007, 14:40
Without too much thinking (so do not take this too serious ;)):

+1 to hit enemies

-1 to hit high elves in combat

spears always strike on initiative

fight in 4 ranks

always stand and shoot

armour piercing

stubborn on turn charged

need more? ;)

I like all of those suggestions scythe, but I'm not sure that any of them would allow high elf infantry to take a charge or to be balanced point for point with cavalry-- assuming that you meant fight in four ranks for spears only. I think that the problem really does lie in the fact that high points cost, toughness three infantry need to have game altering mechanics to be viable in competitive games. The fact that the charge is all important in warhammer is why tournaments see so much heavy cavalry (and some elite infantry that can take a charge like dwarfs or swamp you with numbers like skaven).

The thing that I like about this rule is that it is simple and army wide. The alternative would have been stacking different special rules onto different units to make them viable, and this would have been far more problematic. This approach was tried with wood elves, and they still realized that they needed to sneak toughness 4, combat viable infantry in through the back door via dryads. The access to so many specialist units created an army that was, in fact, able to be horribly abused. I suspect that the one army wide special rule is far easier to balance, and the high elf list will probably be seen to be more balanced after people actually get a chance to play with it. I could be wrong, but only time and real experience with the list will actually tell.

Scythe
24-10-2007, 14:41
It makes them individual. It makes skaven different from goblins, and swordsmen different from marauders

But they are already different. Skaven differ from goblins in the move, weapon skill, initiative and leadership stat, plus they have different point values and equipment options. Marauders are on a different base size as swordsmen, have a different point cost, and other equipment options.


I think i tend to be Scythe on not really know why whole armies need a special rule however it obviously it isnt enough for armies to just have different state lines, equipment, unit types, the odd unit with a special rule. dear god i fear what they will do to chaos when they finally redo them...

It isn't? I am not so sure about that. Either way, some armies always worked ok without an army wide special rule, and high elves where one of those. However, gw seems to be set on giving every army its own special rule, wether they really need it or not.

edit: added reply below:


I like all of those suggestions scythe, but I'm not sure that any of them would allow high elf infantry to take a charge or to be balanced point for point with cavalry-- assuming that you meant fight in four ranks for spears only. I think that the problem really does lie in the fact that high points cost, toughness three infantry need to have game altering mechanics to be viable in competitive games. The fact that the charge is all important in warhammer is why tournaments see so much heavy cavalry (and some elite infantry that can take a charge like dwarfs or swamp you with numbers like skaven).


For me the solution to that would be simple; increase cavalry in points, or decrease infantry in points. Like I said, I do not really see the need here to add an army based rule which changes a basic game mechanic.

I am not a great fan of stacking special rules on units either, but it is more controllable that way I think. Take archers for example. The side effect of the army wide always strike first rule is that troops like archers can now fend of skirmishers and fast cavalry relatively easily in close combat. I can hardly believe that was the intention when they tried to make 'high elf infantry more viable'. And again, why does simple point tweaking not work? Sure, some units (like phoenix guard) could use some more work, but why such a drastic change?

MutantMaggot
24-10-2007, 14:47
Scythe: They were two random examples. A better one may be WE archers and HE archers. They may be a little different, in most cases, but as different armies they should have a completely different playing style.

Finnigan2004
24-10-2007, 15:06
For me the solution to that would be simple; increase cavalry in points, or decrease infantry in points. Like I said, I do not really see the need here to add an army based rule which changes a basic game mechanic.

I am not a great fan of stacking special rules on units either, but it is more controllable that way I think. Take archers for example. The side effect of the army wide always strike first rule is that troops like archers can now fend of skirmishers and fast cavalry relatively easily in close combat. I can hardly believe that was the intention when they tried to make 'high elf infantry more viable'. And again, why does simple point tweaking not work? Sure, some units (like phoenix guard) could use some more work, but why such a drastic change?

I have to agree that adjusting the points for infantry vs. cavalry should be done, and would probably alleviate many problems with the game. On the other point though, I think that the problem faced with elves is the result of them not quite fitting in with the way the game mechanics work. They should be a small, elite army on one hand. This means that simply making them cheaper loses part of the "feel" of the army. For me, that is not a good option because a horde does not suit them.

On the other hand, they are good in all of the areas that are not important in Warhammer combat (WS, initiative) and relatively weak in all of the areas that are (armour save, toughness, strength). They do have a relative strength in the movement phase, but taking infantry sacrifices this strength. In my opinion, to make elves as good as other armies something radical needed to be done. The other option would be to leave elves relatively as is, and end up with the annoying all cavalry/ seer council options, which also do not fit the fluff.

On a side note, as someone with several 40k armies that are gathering dust-- we need to be careful what we wish for when asking to cut down on special rules. I think that most of them make the game more interesting and diverse. It has been done there, and it makes for a much more bland system in my opinion. Remember, those who sacrifice fun for perfect balance usually end up getting neither. I think. Most of the time, that is. Well, at least in the case of 40k anyhow. 'Cause, um, 40k stinks now. Yeah. :p

Anyhow, I suppose that if they go that route, I always have my Hordes stuff... the new Circle Orboros models are really, really cool... :)

Scythe
24-10-2007, 15:12
Scythe: They were two random examples. A better one may be WE archers and HE archers. They may be a little different, in most cases, but as different armies they should have a completely different playing style.

Why? They are basically elves with bows, right? Why should they be hugely different from each other (comming from a wood elf player, mind). A minor difference would be sufficient. Is it so controversal to have similar troops in different armies, especially when it concerns the same race? One unit selection doesn't define a whole army, does it? A (hypotetical) unit of dwarf warriors would play differently when put in an assault orientated Chaos force, right?

edit: (damn, foiled again! I should really concentrate on one thing at a time! ;))

@Finnigan2004

I am not against special rules to add flavour and make some units more viable. However, what seems to be happening a lot in fantasy is just throwing in a special rule 'because they can'. Hence I do not really find always strike first as an army special rule to be justified, because the underlying tone of 'yeah, we had to give high elves something, right?' is obviously there to me. They could have thought of a more ellegant solution to make HE infantry more viable against everyone, and not only murder armies like Ogres, Dark Elves or Chaos, while leaving Dwarves or most Empire practically unaffected. What is more, playing elite infantry against such armies might even be a worse idea as before, as those more expensive swordmasters die really fast to missile fire.

logan054
24-10-2007, 15:40
You fear what they'll do to chaos? All they can do is make it more powerful -- you can't complain, you're a fellow chaos player! :eek:

Well personally i think the only real problem with chaos atm is chaos warriors and the price of maraudersm apart for that they are fine, maybe knights are tad underpriced to, still, if this is what they do to high elves then ekk :cheese:

Trust me i dont really miss the days of 5th ed chaos warriors, wasnt the most interesting choice of unit.

Anyways making spearmen more viable, again i say shield wall! i already said what it did, add in a point reduction and your away!

MutantMaggot
24-10-2007, 15:48
Chaos problems -- none, apart from their models. Metal knights. Metal Marauder horsemen. Metal warhounds. Rubbish chaos warrior models.

logan054
24-10-2007, 16:00
Chaos problems -- none, apart from their models. Metal knights. Metal Marauder horsemen. Metal warhounds. Rubbish chaos warrior models.

I take it you've been smoking something :P the chaos warriors are great! far better than alot of the other kits and certainly far better than any of the older kits. to many metal models i would admit however i wasnt really talking about the models :P

MutantMaggot
24-10-2007, 16:46
Err ... chaos warriors? Great? I like the general look and feel of them, but, well ... they're so immobile! Tough they are easy to convert. Still, whatever the case, my chaos army will always be entirely mounted. ;)

logan054
24-10-2007, 17:00
no they arnt hard to convert, i converted some into chaos knight the other day, i was bored and halberds are easy to make, anyways enough of this! either way its going to be a fair time till we receive a update so i guess we can only work with what we have against high elves. Giants and Chariots, i think giants actually stand a fair chance against swordsmasters thanks to have less frontage than a unit and T5 besides if they die they can always fall on the unit and kill it :D

MutantMaggot
24-10-2007, 17:05
Nah. For damage, simply employ a helcannon. If only to scare them. :p And Tzeentchian armies should do well, with all their magick.

mav1971
24-10-2007, 17:24
I don't know if this has been brought up. But GW's reasoning for the strike first rule is because they live a long time and have many years of experience fighting. So are they going to give Dark Elves and Wood Elves the stirke 1st rule also?

MutantMaggot
24-10-2007, 17:33
Probably not. Dark elves may have it, but GW will probably give them poisoned weapons or something instead. Wood elves fight in a different style -- they would need an archery rule, not a combat rule.

Harky
24-10-2007, 19:00
They have an archery rule don't they? No penalties for shooting at long distance or some such thing and their bows shoot further... It's been a while since I saw the rules.

Chiungalla
24-10-2007, 19:28
No penalties for moving and shooting.
The longbows have the same range, but the Glade Guards deal strengh 4 with there bows in short range.

logan054
24-10-2007, 20:05
I dont remember seeing any reference to this on the spreadsheet from the GW site

Shadow-Walker
24-10-2007, 20:07
I don't think that SOA will make a huge differance. As several people have already pointed out, HE usually end up striking first anyway. Although if I had been writing the HE book, I probably wouldn't have included the rule. In my opinion, there were only three things that needed fixing for the army. Remove I@C, improve (or reduce points cost of) Archers, and improve Pheonix Guard. Mind you, if the new WD article is anything to go by, I'll probably have no complaints about the book when it comes out.

Stella Cadente
24-10-2007, 20:25
IF high elves were str10 toughness 10 soldiers with a 1+ armour save and ward save and could fight is 60 ranks I could see a reason to cry about always striking first

BUT THERE NOT ARE THEY, who is it really gonna beat?

Vampire counts? no there slow anyway in combat and usually will outnumber in very large numbers
Chaos? no, a basic warriors armour save and toughness is way more than enough to withstand a high elves low strength
Dwarves? don't be stupid
Empire? they suck at combat anyway, thats why we have more firepower than an Iowa class battleship
need I go on

of course I dunno if were still on about striking first, this convo seems to of changed subjects more than Jordans bra strap

Bender
24-10-2007, 20:51
@stella cadente:

go on... i want to see how this will go on especially against dark elves and wood elves

Stella Cadente
24-10-2007, 20:57
@stella cadente:

go on... i want to see how this will go on especially against dark elves and wood elves

against dark elves yes you might have more problems, since there toughness is also quite low, but, Dark elves in my experience can be very fast and manouvarable, so the flanks are still a weak point

Wood elves, well I have never fought against them cus nobody plays them round here, but I guess they could stand back and shoot the living snot out high elves and use eagles to take out war machines and mages

logan054
24-10-2007, 21:08
IF high elves were str10 toughness 10 soldiers with a 1+ armour save and ward save and could fight is 60 ranks I could see a reason to cry about always striking first

BUT THERE NOT ARE THEY, who is it really gonna beat?

Vampire counts? no there slow anyway in combat and usually will outnumber in very large numbers
Chaos? no, a basic warriors armour save and toughness is way more than enough to withstand a high elves low strength
Dwarves? don't be stupid
Empire? they suck at combat anyway, thats why we have more firepower than an Iowa class battleship
need I go on

of course I dunno if were still on about striking first, this convo seems to of changed subjects more than Jordans bra strap

I think you will find most of the concerns are around swordmasters, i dont think anyone really gives a damn about spearmen, archers and sea guard may also be a pain, i think its the whole standard and shoot and then attack first, again its abit silly. Sadly no one is crying about anything, people are doing what they do, voice concerns about things, its part of human nature, i take it your a elf player then ;)

Stella Cadente
24-10-2007, 21:13
I think you will find most of the concerns are around swordmasters, i dont think anyone really gives a damn about spearmen, archers and sea guard may also be a pain, i think its the whole standard and shoot and then attack first, again its abit silly. Sadly no one is crying about anything, people are doing what they do, voice concerns about things, its part of human nature, i take it your a elf player then ;)
actually I'm an empire player, I'll only be doing high elves cus I like the models, the strike first rule means nothing in my decision

and sowrdmasters should really mean nothing either, if your playing a REALLY good high elf player those swordmasters should be charging you anyway, therefore striking first anyway, and plus its an expensive unit thats probably gonna be catching allot of flak anyway, so even as an empire player I wouldn't be concerned in the slightest

plus why would you charge swordmasters with a unit you would bother losing, you'd charge them with a cheap unit to tie them up, so again there advantage doesn't matter, or you would charge them with a really really tough unit that you know will withstand them

so I still fail to see a problem

theunwantedbeing
24-10-2007, 21:20
Only the other elf players have any real problem with high elves striking first, as they are the ones who are actually bothered by the damned rule.

Yes st3 troops fighting before your charging knights have next to no effect.
ST5 swordsmasters with 2 attacks are a different matter altogether.
Same with st6 white lions fighting before your knights.
Or character's on foot with great weapons for example.

There are of course concerns about that hideously powerful lion chariot that hits noticably harder than even a chaos chariot does. With a greater range as well.....

It's more voicing of concerns that "whining".
Although for most people saying something looks a bit powerful is exactly the same as screaming broken and cheese at the top of your lungs for no apparent reason.

Empire...well they have handguns, elves still die to handguns.
Dwarves...they strike last anyway and they get handguns.
Bretonnians....lance,who cares who fights first.
Vampire counts....not a noticable difference really, although thralls are decidedly less useful now as they need a good save(barring lahmians with innocence lost,they fight before everyone barring HE lords which the roll for)
Tomb kings....not that noticable a problem,plenty of chariots troops can always get to fight in the magic phase instead.
Chaos mortals....chaos knights,not fussed about fighting so long as they fight.
Skaven...rubbish troops anyway,although giant rat packs now look a bit more useful.
Orcs&goblins.....orcs are t4 and cheap and get choppa's, plus plenty of other nasties.

Now we get to some sort of a problem facing them
Beastmen....well can be problematic for the lesser guys.
Daemons....few people use daemons anyway so it doesnt matter.
Wood elves...not much point in elves fighting in combat,even wardancers.
Dark elves....these are the main people who suffer, as they are also t3 low armour high cost and are the ones who "need" to strike first to be able to do real damage.

Still...virtually everyone can just gunline when they meet a HE army.
Unless your a vampire counts player so you take innocence lost and some magic weapon and hack them down before they fight you anyway.
The black coach is also pretty good at hurting them plus its so tough most things will struggle to hurt it.

logan054
24-10-2007, 21:24
Yeah no wonder it dosnt bother you as a empire player, gunline! swordsmasters should be charging my heavy cavalry? your joking right, swordmaster should be charging things like minotaurs? say what? the thing that bothers me is that now it dosnt matter so much if i charge or not! thats the issue, im not rewarded for being a better person No if i go after swordmasters it going to be either a giant or chariots that or getting in the flank may work but i guess it more depends on the width of the unit you face.

Cheap units however will not not tie up a 7 wide unit of swordsmaster, they will just get butchered and run (after all the cheap unit will have low leadership). Anyways i think the thing that bothers me is having to totally redesign my list to face high elfs, i cant think of a army i have been required to do that for yet, maybe magic items but thats about it, nice way to force people into buying stuff they dont really want i guess...

theunwantedbeing - I beg to differ chaos knigts are going to care, certainly not against spear elfs but as i said the main issue really is sword masters and as are beastmen really, dragon ogres and giants have the best chance, chariots sure but they arnt the toughest things to kill, mortal chariots certainly should make it into combat however (unless he has alot of RBT's}

Stella Cadente
24-10-2007, 21:28
Yeah no wonder it dosnt bother you as a empire player, gunline!
actually my empire army was completely balanced with equal amounts of guns and other stuff....thats why I always lost, cus fantasy hates nice players:p

Bender
24-10-2007, 21:39
i don't get it... all of you say that wood elves can shoot them to death... i depend on combat units (namely wardancers and wild riders, ocassionaly dryads or treeman) to win the game... wardancers have t3 ws 6+, also wild riders have t3, sv 5+, forest spirit ws 5+ or ws 6+... and this are the things i use the most

should i just field other units or continuing to play with my fetish units???

^DrAgOn^
24-10-2007, 21:44
They were in need of a boost but the problem I have with the rule is it takes away a lot of the strategy in the game, if it had some limitations (say not striking first when charged in the rear/flanks) it would be better.

logan054
24-10-2007, 21:49
Stella - Oh yeah, dont i know, see this rules, it rewards us even less!

Bender - i think someone mentioned a dance that allows you to strike first? really all you need to do is shoot the swordmasters with your archers, tree kin should also have uses against them as atleast they have T5.

I have to say when i first read the ASF i was concerned, now not so much but i still dont like it and it really gets my goat when people go

"you seen LOTR, it ROXZ MAN!!, thats how all elves should be!!!"

Hmm, maybe chaos warriors should be like sauron then :D

Chiungalla
24-10-2007, 21:58
should i just field other units or continuing to play with my fetish units???

You should field other units.
There is no right to demand to win with the units you like the most.

And dryads, wardancer and the wild riders have serious trouble again a great number of armys, because they can't flee charges from heavy cavalry or chariots, and will not survive one.

Swordmasters are your smallest problem again high elves with those units.

zak
24-10-2007, 22:56
The rule is far over rated. The Elven army will be small and will hot hard. Every army has chariots, shooting or something that can counter the rule. Target the swordmasters with shooting chariots and then mop up the rest.
This all smacks of panic prior to anyone really giving it a chance.

logan054
24-10-2007, 23:01
You should field other units.
There is no right to demand to win with the units you like the most.

And dryads, wardancer and the wild riders have serious trouble again a great number of armys, because they can't flee charges from heavy cavalry or chariots, and will not survive one.

Swordmasters are your smallest problem again high elves with those units.

On a side note he should be able to use them still without worry of them being useless. cant think of many armies this is teh case actually, i cant think of types of units this is true of but this due to how GW messed up elite infantry and turned this edition in cavalry hammer (but this mainly down to army books).

Azyriel
25-10-2007, 02:24
I think the army permeates with overpowered-ness for those unprepared to fight a very elitist style of army. However, i think once people figure out that its low model count with easy to shoot down and hit in the flanks it might change the out look. Just a guess until I can actually look at the army book though.

P.S. I would like to point out that i am slightly worried to how Dark Elves will evolve according to this.

Crazy Harborc
25-10-2007, 03:19
At this time only one regular opponent pushs HEs. He also pushs DEs. If DEs improve as much as HEs......:( When and if that happens....he'll go back to the DEs. Say while he is using some of my HEs....I should charge him rent.:evilgrin:

Chiungalla
25-10-2007, 05:15
On a side note he should be able to use them still without worry of them being useless.

Be will still be able to use them, but he will need to backup this units with Archers, Glade Riders and other units.
As he is now.

Scythe
25-10-2007, 09:31
"you seen LOTR, it ROXZ MAN!!, thats how all elves should be!!!"

Hmm, maybe chaos warriors should be like sauron then :D

That brought a smile to my face. I was also getting annoyed by those movie references. ;)


You should field other units.
There is no right to demand to win with the units you like the most.

So... you should be forced to rely on heavy cavalry, chariots and shooting instead?

Cycorax
25-10-2007, 11:29
For me, it IS the way i imagine elves fighting; ALL elves, i dont see why the Asur should get it when their kin are left out. It's just a very elfy thing, but it wouldnt work very well with game balance if all elves got this bonus :cheese:.

logan054
25-10-2007, 11:47
Be will still be able to use them, but he will need to backup this units with Archers, Glade Riders and other units.
As he is now.

thats not what you said, still i think other elven armies are going to be completely screwed by this rule, not that im a big fan of wood elves but i think its certainly out of order that wood elves which is also a elitist army is going to struggle.


That brought a smile to my face. I was also getting annoyed by those movie references ;)

Well i do try but none the less i demand my chaos warriors act like sauron now cos he makes me think of how a chaos warrior should fight, perhaps also all heroes should be able to wipe out units and be invincible because thats what the movie did! (wait, thats 5th ed!)


So... you should be forced to rely on heavy cavalry, chariots and shooting instead?

Yes apparently so, and giants!! sad thing is this promotes more a list a game based around list construction rather than actually on field tactics, i do love how every goes on about flanking, with some armies this far easier said than done and again relies on your opponent to move how you want them to, a smart opponent will count this unless its a weak unit, a weak unit isnt going to do alot in the flank of a unit of swordmasters apart for getting chopped up.

Chiungalla
25-10-2007, 11:49
So... you should be forced to rely on heavy cavalry, chariots and shooting instead?

No, you shouldn't, but you allready are.

That is no problem of the new high elves, that is a problem of warhammer in general. I don't like it this way, too.
But if you want to win, you need heavy cavalry or shooting.
Or maybe a massiv number of great units.

Thats not only the problem vs. the new high elves.
It is very much the same vs. old high elves.


thats not what you said


You should field other units.

I think this is exactly what I said.
You should field other units. Maybe I should have added "as well".
I never said, you can't field those units you like.
I only said, you need to field those units you need.

If you still have enough points, there is no problem in fielding the units you like.

wageslave
25-10-2007, 12:03
still i think other elven armies are going to be completely screwed by this rule, not that im a big fan of wood elves but i think its certainly out of order that wood elves which is also a elitist army is going to struggle.

How are the Wood Elves going to begin to struggle by the High Elves getting this rule? Worst case scenario,they can only become worse with regard to HE they don't start to suck more against OTHER armies by HE being effective. The WE play style is nothing at all like the HE. As a WE player I wouldn't even change many of my lists if I had ASF, that focus mostly on shooting and tree skirmishers. I find your example particularly amusing because WE are the army that will be effected the least by ASF. Point of fact, these weakly armoured/ kick butt melee squads are TERRIBLE against WE and I imagine the Asur grinning wickedly at the 15 point per troop 5+ armour squads they get to pin cushion.

NOW, as for Dark Elves, well hehe I already consider them the most terrible army in fantasy drastically in need of a new book and every new release in the last 3-4 years has been way better than them.

Scythe
25-10-2007, 13:07
Yes apparently so, and giants!! sad thing is this promotes more a list a game based around list construction rather than actually on field tactics, i do love how every goes on about flanking, with some armies this far easier said than done and again relies on your opponent to move how you want them to, a smart opponent will count this unless its a weak unit, a weak unit isnt going to do alot in the flank of a unit of swordmasters apart for getting chopped up.

That is a good point. A further point to make here: flanking units tend to be small and fast (fast cavalry springs to mind), which brings up another problem; those units cannot stand against damage very well. Often, even 1 or 2 kills can make such a unit lose its ability to cancel ranks (the main point of flanking, I recon). Striking first defenders dramatically increase the chance of this happening, as they are still all alive to make thier attacks.


No, you shouldn't, but you allready are.


So, it is allright to further encourage this approach then? It might be so that a lot of armies rely on cavalry and shooting these days, but the new HE only give us more reason to. That is not really a correct way to restore balance, is it?

On a side note, I seem to do fine with my infantry based, non-shooting vampire counts. ;)


NOW, as for Dark Elves, well hehe I already consider them the most terrible army in fantasy drastically in need of a new book and every new release in the last 3-4 years has been way better than them.

Well, dark elves have an option. You could always just take an army entirely made up out of crossbowmen, reaper bolt throwers and chariots. It would probably even work reasonably well against the new high elves, but it wouldn't be a fun army, now would it?

Noldo
25-10-2007, 13:12
Sorry, but I can not have sympathy for Wood Elves. Is it so hard that their Wardancers have to use either 4+ Ward dance or "Strike First" dance when charging into Swordmasters? That they actually have to use their superior movement and charge the flank of swordmasters instead of just plowing through at least equally skilled opponents on head long charge?

With 6th edition rules, a group of wardancers (8 models) could just charge unit of swordmasters (if one such thing was seen in the battlefield) with no fear of retaliation, just like that, 150pt unit destroying 180pt unit with no difficulties.

Now with the new rules the same 150pt Wardancer unit actually has to use their abilities (skirmish, various dances) to overcome 200pt unit (Swordmasters in 7x2 formation with banner). And yes, they might even lose few members while doing that, how horrible is that, the precious Wood Elves can no longer just dance through their enemies with no casualties.

Against anything else than Swordmasters (including White Lions), even typical fast cavalry has a sporting change of winning the combat, just like it should be if the units are close to equal in value. You might need to avoid the front of elite infantry, but isn't that just what tactics is all about?

Chiungalla
25-10-2007, 13:22
So, it is allright to further encourage this approach then? It might be so that a lot of armies rely on cavalry and shooting these days, but the new HE only give us more reason to. That is not really a correct way to restore balance, is it?

I don't think that the new high elves will give you more reason to do so, then the old.

The old high elves were nearly allways played with tons of fast heavy cavalry, and this allready gave them a "nearly allways strikes first rule" and the ability to break many opponents in the first round of combat.

And yes, it may be the wrong way to restore balance.
But GW doesn't show any interest in restoring this balance at all, except from making infantry cheaper.

logan054
25-10-2007, 13:48
You should field other units.
There is no right to demand to win with the units you like the most.


No thats what you said, this promotes game more about list construction than tactics on the field


That is a good point. A further point to make here: flanking units tend to be small and fast (fast cavalry springs to mind), which brings up another problem; those units cannot stand against damage very well. Often, even 1 or 2 kills can make such a unit lose its ability to cancel ranks (the main point of flanking, I recon). Striking first defenders dramatically increase the chance of this happening, as they are still all alive to make thier attacks.

This exactly the point im trying to make however the thing is we have different types of player debating a very solid issue, you have players like myself that tend to field more interesting fluffy armies and really till now how had plenty of fun and success using these armies, using unit movement to win games, this aspect of the game has been dramatically damaged against high elves. Using one of my more interesting infantry list would have been interesting with the older army book and by no means a dead certain victory, it made a difference is i got the charge, now even if i plan my movement right whats my reward, nothing.

As many people have said warhammer is about tactics not shinny rules that bestow certain armies unprecedented advantages, really it makes the CC army slightly redundant and actually makes the game even more so into expensive version of rock paper scissors

As Scythe has said about flanking unit, usually these kind of units are weak and damn easy to take care of, sure T3 is a issue for high elves but also a issue for a hell of alot of armies, infact i think most armies have a T3 selection, chaos certainly isnt devoid of it, look at ungor, they make up a large portion of units and thats what you shoot at and they also have far less leadership!

The cavalry army isnt also the great approach, brets arnt so effect as they have that stupid ward save but other are, i think its rare to see units more than 6/7 big. So yes, if you have a gunline good for you, your the rock, high elves of the scissors and CC is the paper!

Personally i dont think we are going to see many spearmen taking up the core slot, its either going to be archers and sea guard depending on the rest of the list, i think we are just going to see smaller wider units of swordmasters, perhaps two, multiple RBT's and dragon princes as the standard, some may go for the dragon mage but i only really see this happening against none gunlines.

Noldo - Well i did mention the dances before however i do feel most armies are going to become rather repetitive in order to beat high elves, it will however have a interesting effect on GT's, i was told this year it was all about empire and steam tanks, next year, who knows

Chiungalla
25-10-2007, 14:22
No thats what you said, this promotes game more about list construction than tactics on the field

Warhammer is more about list construction, than tactics on the field.
Only if both players did nearly equaly well (or bad) in constructing there lists, the on field tactics will decide the outcome of the game.

I don't like it this way, allthough I like to think a very long time about my army lists.


sure T3 is a issue for high elves but also a issue for a hell of alot of armies, infact i think most armies have a T3 selection, chaos certainly isnt devoid of it, look at ungor, they make up a large portion of units and thats what you shoot at and they also have far less leadership!

And they cost 4 points each, not 15.
You annihilate an unit of swordmasters with the same amount of firepower, that causes the ungors (worth the same amount of points) to take a panictest.

Noldo
25-10-2007, 14:24
I think that the biggest effect of the ASF is psychological. It will take some time for people to get used to the fact that charging High Elves with lesser unit (= cheaper) will no longer automatically mean victory in combat. There will also be more luck involved since bad luck on HE player's side (missing with attacks, failure to wound) will come play before the attacker gets his change.

In a sense Warhammer will always be partially Rock-Paper-Scissors. Every army will always have good matchups (Rock vs. Scissors) and bad matchups (Rock vs. Paper). The extend of that effect depends on the variety within the army (one-trick-ponies increase the R/P/S effect).

However, I hope (and it seems to me that it might be possible) that GW is answering to the development with giving us 10+ armies, each with their unique playstyle. That could bring on metagame, forcing people to take armies that can handle very different playstyles. New High Elves add to that effect. They play differently than previous armies and thereby certain previous tactics are rendered weaker or totally ineffective. Just like Wood Elves made certain previous tactics worthless and O&G Waagh! or Empire handguns make certain tactics weaker than they were before. In the end I hope that the playingfield will be so diverse that no single-trick-army can answer to all threats and most players will have to return to mixed forces (combination of various threats, be them magic, cavalry, infantry or shooting).

Unfortunately the new army always have the upperhand here. There is no existing tactics for HE infantry in their current form, so all HE players can start to design their army composition and tactics wtih knowledge of typical playstyle of other armies (skirmishing WE, Dwarves and Empire with missile support, horde Skave, cavalry Brets, high macig Chaos, Lizardmen or VC) while old armies must first wait and see how the HE playstyle is going to shape.

logan054
25-10-2007, 15:01
Warhammer is more about list construction, than tactics on the field.
Only if both players did nearly equaly well (or bad) in constructing there lists, the on field tactics will decide the outcome of the game.

I don't like it this way, allthough I like to think a very long time about my army lists.

Hardly, perhaps against the new elves and going to a tournament but certainly not against other armies, list construction is apart of warhammer but i dont think until the reading about high elves it has been a dominating part of the game. Personally i dont think that long about my lists, i know what i like to use and what works and i usually use one that i save on my computer.




And they cost 4 points each, not 15.
You annihilate an unit of swordmasters with the same amount of firepower, that causes the ungors (worth the same amount of points) to take a panictest.

no but killing the ungor will still painic the unit which is usually over the 100pts mark and causing painic in other units usually resulting in the same effect points wise. Sadly firepower is not the answer for every army, i look at my army and see a few throwing axes!


I think that the biggest effect of the ASF is psychological. It will take some time for people to get used to the fact that charging High Elves with lesser unit (= cheaper) will no longer automatically mean victory in combat. There will also be more luck involved since bad luck on HE player's side (missing with attacks, failure to wound) will come play before the attacker gets his change.

ahh yesm the 300pts chosen knight unit that barely stands a chance, against spearmen yeah, sure, as i said i doubt these will be use much, i think minimual core with archers will be high chance. As many people have yes you can counter it (i have named examples) but this isnt the point, its the fact it makes so many options redundant or far to risky. At no point have i personally mentioned charging high elves with lesser unit so im not exactly sure how you came up with this conclusion that i was talking about usinf say chaos hounds to take on combat units.

No i think the main issues with ASF are against seaguard/archers and swordmaster, i think i have talked swordmasters to death so read through my posts. the problem is see is that a very normal tactic against shooting units is jusr right out of the game, what i see happening is that the heavy CC armies are are going to encounter pronlems even killing 100pts? archer units. I know i would personally use furies to deal with these units but the fact is to engage these unit i have absorb atleast one turn of normal shooting, then a stand and fire and then i get the unit striking first, i guess flank charges will be possible however this is still going to rely on some luck.

RBT's maye very well cause hell, they may fail the fear test but still chance are the crew will kill one and then its only what a 50% chance, if that of killing a crew and drawing combat! Light cav even have a worse probelm, they only usually have a 6+ save, flank charging, all thats requires is that light cav are knocked down to two mean and the flank charge is waste ist just more combat res, its abit silly really.

Now am i posting my dislike for this because i cant think of counters to many of these problems? no, hell know but i feel the way lists will be requires to altered will make my games less enjoyable for both parties which is main reason to play warhammer after all!

Bender
25-10-2007, 15:22
exactly my point logan054... i've talked 'bout wood elves 'cause it's my primary army, but it is all about tactics

this rule is a no brainer and all it will do is to high elves start relying in infantry that does lots of damage when other units charge them, mainly spearman/lothern sea guard, white lions, swordmasters, phoenix guard, and then use cavalry to charge into those units that are harder to kill...

i recon the core of the high elves army will be great weapon infantry and dragon princes, with RBT's and archers, and this is a bit nobrainer

what will GW make next??? an army that you only need to deploy to win the game??? the rule cand be called "by the grace of the old ones"

Chiungalla
25-10-2007, 15:34
i recon the core of the high elves army will be great weapon infantry and dragon princes, with RBT's and archers, and this is a bit nobrainer

.... if the opponent hasn't any shooting on the battlefield.
If the opponent has shooting, your great weapon infantry will be gone in a second.

Bender
25-10-2007, 15:45
just being a bit of a troll back theres, now more seriously... the unit that charges should have the tactical advantage cause it was able to outmanouvre the enemy units, what happens is that with this rule is very difficult for units with less armour save to have the role they were intented to, fast cavalry is supposed to help a combat by charging the flank, thus gaining the tactical advantage warhammer was supposed to have. now imagine this:
1 unit of chaos finest horseman (chosen knights) charge a 20 man lothern seaguard unit (with all it may have full comand etc etc etc 3 rank bonus), and a marauder horseman charges from the side...

this means that the lothern seaguard (after choosing to stand and shoot) will strike 13 attacks to the chosen knights (ok they are st3, but this will make an average kill), and will also make 4 attacks to the side, killing an average 2 to 3 marauder horseman...

this means that being able to outmanouvre the high elves meant nothing cause i've lost all the bonus i could get from this!!

the only way i see this now is to play with fast cavlary units with 10 models, cause it's the only way i can use them to negate ranks and also to gain a bonus to charge from the side, this can go on, but what will happen is the high elves becoming overpowered, i'm not saying i'll start making a anti high elves tourney list, i'm just saying we will see high elves winning all tourneys with crappy lists that always look like each other

Bender
25-10-2007, 15:49
@Chiungalla: if my opponent has shooting i'll screen my great weapon infantry with my high armour save cavalry till i'll destroy his shooting... also that is what RBT and archers are there for...

see warhammer has some tactics on the field after all :p:D (just kidding)

Bender
25-10-2007, 15:51
oh! and lets not forget about terrain... this will also protect my infantry units (especially forests as they will protect my white lions)

logan054
25-10-2007, 15:53
sounds more like if the high elf player is playing a gunline then the swordmasters will be gone in a second, certainly then dosnt promote the use of a balanced army cos if it was and like most ranged attacks at bs 3 hitting on a 5+ they wont be gone in second at all, infact we are going to more see a few swordsmen down and then a return fire taking care of the other guys shooting units, things like rock lobbers certainly arnt reliable enough or even cannons (which i would have thought we be going after units like dragon princes or even dragon riders!).

Bender - glad we are on the same page here, perhaps you taking it abit far with your last comment :p to me it really seems that warhammer is going back a few steps, i think at the start of 6th ed the armies seemed alot more balanced in general, i certainly feel the only real issue was with pricing.

This is really a attempt to try and change things up so i cant fault the attempt to try and keep things fresh but as i said ASF isnt the way to do this, i think if you want to make a more elitist type army then you need more individual unit rules rather than blanket rules.

Spear men for example shield wall, attack in a extra rank, here we go 4+ save but a lot of attacks, it puts them right ahead of your average infantry yet without creating issues that ASF has.

Swords masters, i always like the -1 to shooting and striking in I order with great weapon, made them a very interesting unit

archers shoot in two ranks

minor tweaks that on the whole improve the army rather than make a game of tactics into a gloried version of magic!

Bender
25-10-2007, 16:04
i like all army rules, when they only set minor tweaks to the way the army plays... i like it very much that asrai won't be penalized to move and shoot, that makes me have a guerrilla warfare without people cry chease for me having 65 point archer units... now they are 120 points :P, also the way we have asrai archery, it wouldn't bother me to see asur archery... they shoot in 2 ranks to represent a life investment in training with the bow, and asur warfare... units armed with spear strike with an extra rank, they've trained all their lifes with that weapon, they are good

it's like you are saying

now what makes me laugh is when they get this rule that makes the high elves not being forced to charge to gain bonuses... i think strike at initiative order would be better than strike first, but i feel that high elves didn't need those, only minor tweaks within some units to be brought to the same level as current 7th edition armybooks,mainly brettonia, wood elves, dwarfs to some extent (not anvil of doom based dwarf army... it's beardy in all the ways) and orcs and goblins... i sure hope the book won't be published with this rule, but one can only pray to isha and kournous for this :P

night2501
25-10-2007, 16:25
come on i also hate that new HE rule, it really turns the thing into a no brainer, i jsut march with my unit and who ccares if they charge me, plus with a fragile force as WE one can not take much damage if any at all, but will find ways around it, let see how those archers do against some waywatchers shoting them.
but I was looking the thing as a whole army and it won`t be that terrible, and I play WE, the point is they will be outnumbered even by us, and that the army actually became quite restrictive in choices means they will always be lacking something, and I m planing to use that ^^ , but agree something like asrai archery would have been better, not a big tweak or that much impact, but allow the We to be played more agresively, somthing that`s really good instead of a bowline.
the true I m more afraid of the lis tmost He players won`t use, mass of spears with some elit einfantry/cavalry, but tha twon`t hapend XD

Chiungalla
25-10-2007, 17:38
I think we disagree about the role of fast cavalry as well.

There are many units of fast cavalry around, that could not support charges very well.

The main duty of fast cavalry is to slow down and redirect the opponents force. Thats the kind of duty they use there special rules for.
And this will still work fine versus High Elves.

Flee the charge of the Dragon Princes, so that your heavy cavalry can hit there flank (or front, because they don't take very great advantage of ASF).

Indeed there are many "non High Elf units" around, that don't suffer if fast cavalry will hit there flank in addition to an hard unit in the front.

Nearly all troops with strengh 4, toughness 4 and 2 attacks will benefit from fast cavalry in there flank, while fighting a heavy armored opponent in the front.

Will you attack the flank of Savage Orc Big 'Uns with 4 ranks and extra choppas with fast cavalry?

That fast cavalry isn't allways capable of charging an enemy unit into the flank and survive isn't anything new with the High Elf army book.

Is this ruining the game? No, the contrary.
Since not all armys are equal good in the movement phase, it is very important, that the movement phase isn't to important.

Or you will loose with those slow and clumsy armies all the time.

Bender
25-10-2007, 17:49
in this case i'm just speaking in the role of fast cavalry against high elves... nothing more... of course i wouldn't crash a unit of fast cavalry against a block consisting of 20 chaos warriors...

but fast cavlary is good at tearing the heck up of T3 models... cause they have a spear most of the time... so they will charge at St4...

being elves guys with lots of courage and wearing little to no armour, then they are suposed to be effective when charging the side of elves blocks of infantry

Chiungalla
25-10-2007, 18:35
Yes, the role of many units versus High Elves will change, because the High Elves are different from the release of the new army book on.

That is the point in writing a new army book.
Things change.

And now fast cavalry units are no longer supposed to be effective, if they charge the flanks of blocks of elven infantry.
At least for some kind of elven infantry.

They are still great versus some other units of the High Elves, if they charge them in the flank:
Archers, small units of White Lions or Phoenix Guard without ranks, Lion Chariots, Tiranoc Chariots, Dragon Princes (hey, 2 strengh 3 attacks, and one more after your attacks if you don't kill anything, that will work), maybe even spear elves.

And they are still usefull versus eagles and Repeater Boldthrowers.

logan054
25-10-2007, 22:40
I would say that is because im a chaos player and have chaos hounds to redirect troops, i have my marauder horsemen to flank charge and take out archers, light cav can be certainly used for either role however again because of blanket rules which i will stand by as not being well thought out remove roles from units, when you remove this role the unit has little point in a army.

So in short the role against high units have not been changed it simple has been removed, for me as a chaos player thsi blanket rule only really promotes he use of khorne knights, more knights, more knights, some hounds, a few chariots and giants, hardly the most fun of armies to use or even play against. Yeah great one, I think i need a glass cabinet for my chaos warriors as i think they will collect a hell of alot of dust before i next use them.


on a note about your savage orc big uns, dont they have no armour and will be facing around 13-15 attacks, im sure also we are likely to see BSB, warbanner or the +D6 combat res banner, good luck big un's ;)

Dairym
26-10-2007, 01:27
Hmm.

Wardancers. Now in 18 point arrow screen mode.

Cap'n Facebeard
26-10-2007, 04:17
This rule actually sounds interesting to play against. Bring them on! I'd like to see how my Chaoticians will have to not rely on Marauder Horse flankers. It is characterful, but will this mean a rewrite of Dark Eldar, too? Or is all that evil making them a bit logie?

Chiungalla
26-10-2007, 05:20
So in short the role against high units have not been changed it simple has been removed

Against some High Elf units.
Against a great number of High Elf units, this will still work.
Only Swordmasters are a nearly automatic loose for fast cavalry charging is flank, White Lions and Phoenix Guard will give them a hard time, but nearly all other units will still work.


on a note about your savage orc big uns, dont they have no armour and will be facing around 13-15 attacks, im sure also we are likely to see BSB, warbanner or the +D6 combat res banner, good luck big un's ;)

I wrote about fast cavalry attacking Savage Orcs, not about Savage Orcs facing Swordmasters.

Orcs and Goblins have very better units, allready seen in the most armies, that can deal with Swordmasters:
- Chariots
- Night Goblins with Nets
- Fanatics
- Stone Thrower
- Doom Diver
- Spear Chukka
- Goblins with short bows
- Arrer Boys

Noldo
26-10-2007, 07:10
@logan054
My comments were not directed against you personally, but more against certain general fears/comments presented regarding ASF.

Back to main topic...
In the new edition, Swordmasters will be force to behold. The 2 attacks / base with WS6 and S5 will give then real chance of wiping out the whole first rank of enemies with same or less frontage, unless that enemy has very good armor save (2+ or better) or equal ward save (4+). The different question is wether this is how they should be since based on background they are supposed to be perhaps the most skilled unit in the warhammer, not many enemies are supposed to be able to stand against them. And they are weak to missile fire and magic and chariots and heavy cavalry and they cost 15 points each.

Now all the other troops in new High Elven armybook... Lets study the example charging flank of various elven units (lets say 20 models strong, 4 ranks of 5) with unit of marauder horsemen (4 is sufficient to fit into base-to-base contact):

Against spearmen (worth ~200 points):
- HE get 4 attacks, hitting on 4+ (2 hits on average), wounding on 4+ (S3 v. T3) (1 wound on average) and marauders get armor save (6+ for being mounted), resulting on average to death of bit less than 1 marauder. Lets say 1 dead.
- Marauders and steeds attack (assuming spears), 3 attacks from riders, 3 from mounts, hitting on 4+, wounding on 3+ (S4 v. T3), spear elves get armor save (6+, light armor and shield reduced by S4). Average result bit less than 2 dead elves.
=> The Combat Result? If spearelves have standard and marauders not, we are talking about tie (banner, kill and outnumber for elves vs. flank and 2 kills for marauders). If marauders support charge by knights, they provide positive CR of +5 or +6 (removal of ranks (3), flank (1), one additional kill (2 kills - 1 lost) and perhaps even outnumber (depending on the number of knights and deaths). How they are not doing their task there?

Against Phoenix Guard (worth ~330 points):
- HE gets 4 attacks, hits on 3+, wounds on 3+ (S4 vs. T3), no armor save. On average a bit less than 2 marauders die.
- Marauders and horses get to attack back, hitting on 4+, wounding 3+, 6+ armor save and 4+ ward save. On average 2 remaining marauders manage to kill less than one PG (ward save make them very tough to get rid of).
=> On straight up fight Elves would win (and based on point costs, they should) with banner, 2 kills and outnumber against marauders flank and one or none kills. But still, in larger battle Marauders would have contributed positive effect to the CR by margin of +3 to +5 (removal of ranks (3), flank (1), kills (something between -1 and +1 typically), perhaps outnumber). Still doing their part, aren't they?

Against White Lions (worth ~330 points):
- HE get 4 attacks, hits on 3+ (higher WS), wounds on 2+ (S6 vs. T3), no armor save. On average a bit more than 2 death marauders. This flank charge could almost drop marauders below US5.
- Marauders get 1 or 2 attacks back (on average), hits on 4+, wounds on 3+, 6+ armor save (heavy armors against S4). On average 1 death White Lion.
=> CR on straight up fight would be +4 or +5 for elves (2 or 3 kills, standard, outnumber) and +2 or +1 for marauders (flank, 0 or 1 kill). White Lions would win (as they should, based on point costs). But as assisting force, the marauders would still have positive contribution (flank (1), removal of ranks (3), deaths (-3 to -1)), something between +1 and +3, but still positive (unless White Lions roll uncanny well). They are doing their job!

For the reference, here is the similar fight against large block of swordmasters (worth ~330 points):
- HE gets 8 attacks, hit on 3+, wound on 2+ (S5 vs. T3), no armor save. On average all models on base-to-base are wiped out.
=> Here marauders can't contribute positively to the CR even as part of the larger fight, so in that respect their role has changed, but against all other types of elven infantry marauders can still contribute as they have done before.

The ASF will change HE, they are no longer like any T3, no armor forces that will be blown away by any light cavalry. But that does not mean that light cavalry can no longer contribute to the battle, just like before. Against units with less ranks (7x2, 5x3 or 6x3 formations) one should carefully think wether they want to charge fast cavalry to the flank. However, they still contribute something (loss of ranks (1 or 2), flank (1) and more likely outnumber (1) so positive effect of +3 or +4), and even Swordmasters (with 2 ranks) have hard time generating sufficient kills to get even on such situations.

The role of charging is also changed a bit in battles including High Elves. You should no longer charge because you get all the nice bonuses (like striking first). You should charge because that way you get to fight the combat YOU want. You charge because you want to combine your forces for certain battle. The charge still matters, but it will no longer be definitive "I WIN"-button.

Runt Nosher
26-10-2007, 07:37
The thing is is that charging has never been an instant 'I WIN' button. I played High Elves back when initiative counted on the charge and I remember it helping me out from time to time but it never single handedly won me the battle. People think that White Lions are going to be so crazy, in 6th ed I took them a few times in large 24 man units and I can't recall them cutting their way through 500+ points even once... What this gives the High Elves (generally) is 1 extra turn to lessen the oppositions unit count, and IMO this is very necessary. Ever since the outnumber bonus came out it got even harder for elite infantry units to close the gap against slaves, goblins and gnoblars.

I think that we will find competitive High Elf lists still use lots of cavalry units, and while MSU elites sounds killy IMO a combined arms force is not only far more balanced but far more likely to get into the combats that the High Elf player wants (which is just about a 100% necessity for success with T3/5+ save)

Skeinsliver
26-10-2007, 10:05
My only gripe on the new rules is that archers dont shoot in 2 ranks.. else I think the new High elves are pretty "meh".. A disapointment.. I was looking forward to collecting them, but now.. Im so "meh" about it..


Cant say I like the rules, cant say I disslike the rules.. They are just so bland imho..

Cheaper spearmen(needed), no price change on the most expensive missile troop cept thunderers, wich are tons better.. Sea guard 2 pts more.. get 5+ or 4+ save in CC, shoots in 2 ranks and have spears all of this archers lack.. Will anyone ever buy archers except to make them into sea guard ?

I'm right there in agreement with you on all those points. The rumors of Archers shooting in 2 ranks was going to bring me back. Later, when I heard it was removed at the last second before the AB went to print, I was hoping that at least the LSG would still get it to make them worth taking more often, but not even LSG are going to get 2X rank shooting (most players still won't use them because of this, so 1/3 of the core is worthless).

As it stands, S3 longbow archers without 2X rank shooting @2pts more than spearmen means that archers will be rarely seen and as ineffective as always against so many enemies, and this is the HE primary missle choice (possibly 2/3 of HE core as close to useless). So HE have less of a chance of lowering the outnumbering enemy unit's model count. Not good.

ASF or not, HE still need better shooting. It doesn't need to be anything as ridiculous as WE shooting, but this deficancy of HE shooting is a major mistake and weakness. RBT are nice, but they are limited in their performance abilities by being a warmachine, expensive and rare choices, so they are hardly suitable compensation for a decent, missle core-unit that can be used in a variety of supporting roles.

Also, HE casters are weaker with the loss of the Honours system, so magic is less viable to lowering the unit-strength before CC. The 2 best chances (magic & shooting)for HE to survive against outnumbering foes by slimming them down before engaging in CC have been weakened or left insufficient for their task.

OH, and before anyone starts flaming by saying "ASF and archers with 2X rank shooting would be too overpowering and asking for too much," go crunch the numbers and you'll see that it's really a necessity. HE need ASF and 2X ranks shooting because their armies are going to be ridiculously small, and static CR decides so much. HE need a way to lower the # count of a few enemy models before CC even with ASF because they'll stand no chance against high static CR, and they'll lost the combat even if they do a ton of wounds.

I'm a HE player of many years and I had hoped some of the lost glory would be returned to the HE. Unfortunately, the final decisions that GW made to HE are not as good as the hype about them falsely portrays. God do I wish they were, but GW didn't take it home. they got close and made some improvements, but the job's being left undone because the army still has the same problems with no reliable options to mitigate them being offered IMHO.

With the great need of better shooting, possibly 2 out of 3 core choices undesirable, and the daunting task of having 6 special slots to fill the majority of the HE force's ability from the 9 (yes a whopping 9) special choices that are all expensive.

Things are not as bright as some would want you to believe. But from a devout player of HE who wished for great things, who isn't a GW employee or GW fanboy that acts like everything the company does must be applauded, HE could have been better than what is coming with 7th ed. But I guess every army can't be treated as special as Dwarfs from their GW worshippers.

Noldo
26-10-2007, 10:36
@Skeinsliver

I think that removal of shooting in two ranks is actually one of the key balancing factors of the HE list. With that it would have been too easy to choose 2 minimum units of archers as core and be happy with that.

What HE archers have in their favour in the new edition?
- cheapest way to fill core slots with effective units (2 units of 10, total 220 points)
- ASF making it harder to get rid of them by fast cavalry (they do 1 or 2 kills on average against fast cavalry on frontal attack). With on average 2 elves killed on return attack (probably less if archers manage to drop 2 of the fast cavalry), the fight will be close and archers have nice possibility to hold (LD8 so testing on 6 or 7 typically).

What shooting in two ranks would have changed?
- +1 to CR, although less attack back archers would still manage kill one cavalry on average, putting the fight close to tie.
- Sea Guard would have been very hard to get rid of. With standard a unit of 10 (5x2) would have beaten typical fast cavalry by 2 (or more if equipped by shield).

Yes, High Elven shooting did not really get better (although a bit cheaper) and magic might got a bit weaker (loss of channeler and seer have effect), but I say HE can still muster effective magic phase (archmage + 2nd level with seer can still get almost the spells they like, many lores have magic missile as first spell and with one seer to compliment that, enemy must think carefully about usage of their dispell dice). But HE get so much better in close combat that our previously strong areas (magic, cavalry) need a bit toning down in order not to push army over the top.

I have tried building armylist based on the rumours. I encourage everyone to give it a try (practically all point costs are already available). You will find it quite hard.

HE is going to be army, where the general must have a battle plan. Every unit has certain role.
Look elite infantry:
Killing potential: Swordmasters > White Lions > Phoenix Guard
Durability: Phoenix Guard > White Lions > Swordmasters

Cavalry:
Dragon Princes: expensive and hard hitting, to be used alone and as hammers.
Silver Helms: notably less expensive, good for supporting infantry where you don't really need that much punch (removal of ranks is often enough), so paying for that in Dragon Princes is a bit of a waste
Reavers: harrasment (bows got much cheaper), with more speed they are better harrasment units than Silver Helms and with more similar price (and equal slot) Helms do not overshadow them in that department anymore.

If general chooses to units to fit his gameplan, I think HE will be very effective army, but in the list building there is going to be hard choices to be made. Concentrate on elites and take minimum core of archers (that are not the best point/effectiveness ratio on the book)? Take blocks of spears (more effective core choice), but their costs force general to build army around them. Take pure minimum core (2 naked units of spear, 180 pt together), they have little use in battlefield (other than contesting table quarters), can your 1800 point army win against complete 2000 pt army?

Intresting point is that at the beginning themed forces might be most effective. It is just so much easier to know what units to include and what to leave out if you are buiding Chracian force or Caledor or Saphyr.

logan054
26-10-2007, 12:34
Against some High Elf units.
Against a great number of High Elf units, this will still work.
Only Swordmasters are a nearly automatic loose for fast cavalry charging is flank, White Lions and Phoenix Guard will give them a hard time, but nearly all other units will still work.

White lions, stubborn, negating ranks has little effect here, you have to pretty much destroy the unit, still all your really going here is +1 combat res and maybe a kill whilst the lions are gaining the chance for even more kills, still their role to hold units in place whilst weakning them.

Phoenix Guard is another matter, i would expect them to be in wider rank so more attacks and this also assume that the Marauders pass a fear test to get into the flank, currently even if in range they are going to testing on Ld 8 (frankly if you using ligh cav right i doubt they will be in ld range of the general).

any unit with spears is also going to be a problem, if 4 deep thats still 8 attacks, atleast before we had a better chance of reducing attacks against the flanking unit.




I wrote about fast cavalry attacking Savage Orcs, not about Savage Orcs facing Swordmasters.

well then is certainly less relevant, considering that savage are frenzied and have no choice in the matter, sword masters do and could just sit back while the light cav is removed, its clear the intend on the action with the light cav soif your not frenzied its pointless charging the unit, thats problem with these kinda tactics unless facing frenzied units that are not screened then its relies on the other guy acting as you like.


Orcs and Goblins have very better units, allready seen in the most armies, that can deal with Swordmasters:
- Chariots
- Night Goblins with Nets
- Fanatics
- Stone Thrower
- Doom Diver
- Spear Chukka
- Goblins with short bows
- Arrer Boys

Again some of those unit i cant see going to swordmsasters when you have dragon princes on the table, eagles are certainly capable or removing some of the lose, drawing out fanatics, again for every player the option isnt just to shoot which seems you main point here, you can shoot them.


@logan054
My comments were not directed against you personally, but more against certain general fears/comments presented regarding ASF.

yeah i know however i dont think would you happened to say was true, i was pointing out the error in your logic :P


The thing is is that charging has never been an instant 'I WIN' button. I played High Elves back when initiative counted on the charge and I remember it helping me out from time to time but it never single handedly won me the battle. People think that White Lions are going to be so crazy, in 6th ed I took them a few times in large 24 man units and I can't recall them cutting their way through 500+ points even once... What this gives the High Elves (generally) is 1 extra turn to lessen the oppositions unit count, and IMO this is very necessary. Ever since the outnumber bonus came out it got even harder for elite infantry units to close the gap against slaves, goblins and gnoblars.

I think your missing the point here that has been brought up many times now, its the fact charging makes no odds unless facing a lance, generally i cant think of any infantry unit thats cuts its way through 500pts of stuff in a game, its simply to slow. Really i cant think of many games my chaos warriors have earned their points back, maybe they need ASF as well, hell, by the logic used in the topic it certainly fits chaos as well considering they constantly battle in a place where time has no meaning, you would think they would have trained to similar if not better standard then you combine the close approximation to chaos. Anyway i tend to think its more cavalry hammer now, static combat res really didnt improve things in warhammer.


I think that we will find competitive High Elf lists still use lots of cavalry units, and while MSU elites sounds killy IMO a combined arms force is not only far more balanced but far more likely to get into the combats that the High Elf player wants (which is just about a 100% necessity for success with T3/5+ save)

Yeah, sure, T3, 5+ save isnt all that great, i think everyone agrees shooting is a option, if your a gunline,sadly not everyone uses gunlines or even wishs to for the other lists is is a problem, again these units can be counted with things like chariots but i dont think (which i have to keep saying) you shouldnt need to change a list design to drastically just for one army, i think it should be more on a player list rather than George is using HE today, this just adds to the rock, paper & scissors effect which isnt a good things.

@Skeinsliver - id be all for shooting in two ranks if they didnt have asf, its just daft.

Noldo
26-10-2007, 13:26
White lions, stubborn, negating ranks has little effect here, you have to pretty much destroy the unit, still all your really going here is +1 combat res and maybe a kill whilst the lions are gaining the chance for even more kills, still their role to hold units in place whilst weakning them.

I think you are underestimating the effect of flank here. It is not just about getting the +1 CR, more importantly it is getting wider frontage than the defending HE unit. The truth is that most of those elites are going to win against opponent with narrower frontage, since additional bases (like in 7 wide against 5 wide) allow them to lessen incoming attacks (7 White Lions with champion can almost wipe out front rank of 5 from T3 AS4+ unit). On the flank things get more intresting (see some calculations on my earlier post).


Phoenix Guard is another matter, i would expect them to be in wider rank so more attacks and this also assume that the Marauders pass a fear test to get into the flank, currently even if in range they are going to testing on Ld 8 (frankly if you using ligh cav right i doubt they will be in ld range of the general).

As posted earlier, fast cavalry can contribute to fight against fully ranked Phoenix Guard, against 2 ranks the fight is pretty close (PG win with Standard), as it probably should be (PG is till 15 / each).


any unit with spears is also going to be a problem, if 4 deep thats still 8 attacks, atleast before we had a better chance of reducing attacks against the flanking unit.

Spears only have 1 attach / base on the flanks and not many fast cavalry is going to be scared by 3 or 4 S3 attacks. As pointed on my earlier calculations, marauder horsemen actually might win against spearmen all by themselves on flank charge.


I think your missing the point here that has been brought up many times now, its the fact charging makes no odds unless facing a lance, generally i cant think of any infantry unit thats cuts its way through 500pts of stuff in a game, its simply to slow.

Since infatry will always be slow, they have to have some ability to sustain a charge. This can be numbers (like Skaven, Empire and Goblins), but then they have to be cheap. They can be hard to kill (High AS and Toughness like dwarves and Chaos, High Toughness like Orcs). But something had to be done to HE infantry, since before those 12-15 point models were killed just as easily in close combat as 4-6 point goblins and men (and even more easily since elves only had 5+ armor compared to 4+ handweapon&shield).

GW decided to introduce new way to survive: having chance to kill before being killed. It does change certain basic premises of the game, like "I should be able to charge headlong into unit of Elven infantry and be sure that I win". People just have to get accustomed to the fact that it won't be so anymore. Everyone, including the HE player, has to consider carefully when they want to fight and what unit they want to fight with. That choice is done by charging. Here tactics come to play and I would say that more we have this kind of thinking (how I should move in order to be able to fight that unit in favourable terms), more importance will shift towards tactics.


Really i cant think of many games my chaos warriors have earned their points back, maybe they need ASF as well, hell, by the logic used in the topic it certainly fits chaos as well considering they constantly battle in a place where time has no meaning, you would think they would have trained to similar if not better standard then you combine the close approximation to chaos. Anyway i tend to think its more cavalry hammer now, static combat res really didnt improve things in warhammer.

I think most people will agree that Chaos Warriors need some upgrade (or point drop) come the new Chaos Army Book [I would suppose that they get at least 2 attack base]. However, they are still T4 with 4+ armor save (3+ with shield), so they can sustain charge much better than 6th edition High Elves.


Yeah, sure, T3, 5+ save isnt all that great, i think everyone agrees shooting is a option, if your a gunline,sadly not everyone uses gunlines or even wishs to for the other lists is is a problem, again these units can be counted with things like chariots but i dont think (which i have to keep saying) you shouldnt need to change a list design to drastically just for one army, i think it should be more on a player list rather than George is using HE today, this just adds to the rock, paper & scissors effect which isnt a good things.

I am a bit sad that shooting is so clearly the easy way to counter HE. But the truth is that one does not have to go to gunline in order to be able damage HE with shooting. First attempt of an army have been somewhere between 50 and 100 troops, most combinations being closer to 50 than 100.

I think that requiring different units to handle different kind of armies are not necessarily bad thing. How many had to change their armies to be able to deal with Wood Elves and their hard hitting skirmishers? Does rice (or fall) of high magic armies affect army construction? Naturally it does. Wouldn't it be dull if GW had made new army book for High Elves and it could have been beaten with same tricks and same tactics than the previous book?

EvC
26-10-2007, 14:33
I still tend to think it's very telling that so many people use the flank charge argument to try and point out that ASF isn't so bad- if you're having to assume a flank charge, then the argument is pretty much lost already, to be honest. What's the way that most flank charges happen? You make an enemy unit charge forwards and expose its flank (Either by fleeing or by using a hefty anvil to lock them into place), with one of your units lying in wait and then in your turn, you make them pay for their mistake. Obviously this is easiest against Frenzied units, and other units that gain a noticeable benefit to charging are more likely to take the bait. High Elves, however? Well their Spearmen actually become less effective if they charge, and Swordmasters and the other elites don't care. The only way you'll force them to expose their flanks is if the alternative is worse... usually that means having to receive a charge instead, which means having cannons and mortars ready to blow them away if they don't charge forward. Occasionally a unit of fast cavalry will be able to position itself so that the High Elves can't avoid the flank charge- but that's why High Elves generally have their own support units...

knightwire
26-10-2007, 17:23
Two things I would point out EvC is that #1: I think talking about the flank charge is valid because it is a way to deal with ASF in CC. But more importantly it illustrates that ASF does not infact invalidate tactics, it requires them. Also good generals charge other units for several reasons. Most obvious are the charge bonuses, but there is also the ability to dictate match-ups and combats. HE are not going to always wait for the charge because the charging unit loses one charge benefit, and if they do you should be able to dictate the match-ups to help to your advantage. (Especially losing match-ups) #2: If the HE player is taking a lot of elites, his army will be much more prone to being flanked as both is frontage decreases as well as his unit count.

It's going to be interesting to see this play out of the table top. :)

Chiungalla
26-10-2007, 18:12
The whole point is, there are two different matchups that can happen:

1.) High Elves that know which army they will face, and both players tailor there lists.

2.) High Elves that field an universal list, because they don't know which enemy they will face.

Option 1:
Isn't a problem, because the High Elf player and his opponent, will know which army they will face, so both can tailor there lists.

Every army has some options that will work great against the new High Elves.
Magic, Shooting, Chariots, Fanatics... There is no army without such options.

If both agree that tailoring is lame, you can go to option 2.

Option 2:

The High Elf player doesn't know which army he will face, or he doesn't like to tailor, and tries to make a good universal list.

This will end up with High Elves much like they were in the last edition:
A cavalry army with some "additions".

This additions will not include very great blocks of elite infantry, because they have no room in a good universal list. Maybe you will see 1-2 small (1-2 ranks) units of Swordmasters, Phoenix Guard or White Lions (I will take the later in an universal list).

In my opinion the thoughts of all the fearmongers circle around a unrealistic worst case scenario:
"My High Elf opponent knows which army and units I will field, and fields only those units out of my worst nightmares."

This will not happen, unless you and your opponents have got very different points of view about this game.
If one loves to tailor his army lists, and the other doesn't tailor his lists at all, then that isn't any problem with High Elves. This will be a problem with all armies.

Refardeon
26-10-2007, 19:16
If one loves to tailor his army lists, and the other doesn't tailor his lists at all, then that isn't any problem with High Elves. This will be a problem with all armies.

Amen!

Just as you say, there are different ways to play at all. Many people out there love to tailor there armies to stomp the enemy in the ground, rather than playing with their opponent hobbyist. If there is a way to abuse ASF they will find it, as they find ways against with every army out there.:rolleyes:
ASF has an impact as armywide rule, yes. The cumulated rules of other armies have a much greater impact, indeed. If you complain against ASF you can also complain against armies complete ItP or unbreakable. Or again be whining to all knight brettonians due to blessing and lance formation.;)
It's interesting to see, who is whining about ASF. There are not the people whining using balanced forces, there are only people whining using straightforward cc units to crush the enemy, or using MSU to ride them down. Their one trick ponys are the armies with most problems against ASF, so they have to adopt new tactics: not the worst case imo.
Perhaps we will see times with more balanced forces, making the game more interesting. Looking forward in hope and being more flexible in mind should be the better way to deal with it.:)

Greetz Refardeon

logan054
26-10-2007, 19:59
I think you are underestimating the effect of flank here. It is not just about getting the +1 CR, more importantly it is getting wider frontage than the defending HE unit. The truth is that most of those elites are going to win against opponent with narrower frontage, since additional bases (like in 7 wide against 5 wide) allow them to lessen incoming attacks (7 White Lions with champion can almost wipe out front rank of 5 from T3 AS4+ unit). On the flank things get more intresting (see some calculations on my earlier post).

yes one one unit, i doubt the other units are are going to be this wide, still this requires your fast moving unit to actually make it around the flank intact, still in the flank against swordmasters you are going to facing 4 ws6 strength 5 attacks, these attacks will generally need few kills to win win combat, remember that even in the flank that will just counter a standard, they will still have the numbers over your flanking unit, attacking first im going to say 2 kills, ok, so they are 3 up, so consider going in the sides mean sin most cases you will only have 3 guys that can attack. This means your still going to lose combat and as with most light cav (which will be used for flanking) will have low leadership, gainst other units this wouldnt be the same kinda problem.


As posted earlier, fast cavalry can contribute to fight against fully ranked Phoenix Guard, against 2 ranks the fight is pretty close (PG win with Standard), as it probably should be (PG is till 15 / each).

Your still forgetting your going to need to pass a fear test in order to take advantage of this flank in the first place, i have seen with the older army book people use larger units of 20, still as usually even getting into the flank requires your opponent to play the game the way you want.


Spears only have 1 attach / base on the flanks and not many fast cavalry is going to be scared by 3 or 4 S3 attacks. As pointed on my earlier calculations, marauder horsemen actually might win against spearmen all by themselves on flank charge.

ok, so you attack in 3 ranks, 3 wide, thats 9 attacks for start, i dont really think spearmen are as much of a issue, i already said this in previous posts however.


Since infatry will always be slow, they have to have some ability to sustain a charge. This can be numbers (like Skaven, Empire and Goblins), but then they have to be cheap. They can be hard to kill (High AS and Toughness like dwarves and Chaos, High Toughness like Orcs). But something had to be done to HE infantry, since before those 12-15 point models were killed just as easily in close combat as 4-6 point goblins and men (and even more easily since elves only had 5+ armor compared to 4+ handweapon&shield).

ASF isnt the answer, as i said having a 4+ save for spearmen would have been better, the stat increases with the old rules for swordmasters would have been fine, against infantry will always be weak in this edition of warhamemer as its calvary hammer, having a slightly better save will have no effect against swordmasters or white lions as in many cases its reduced to a 6+, the heaviest infantry will be a 5+


GW decided to introduce new way to survive: having chance to kill before being killed. It does change certain basic premises of the game, like "I should be able to charge headlong into unit of Elven infantry and be sure that I win". People just have to get accustomed to the fact that it won't be so anymore. Everyone, including the HE player, has to consider carefully when they want to fight and what unit they want to fight with. That choice is done by charging. Here tactics come to play and I would say that more we have this kind of thinking (how I should move in order to be able to fight that unit in favourable terms), more importance will shift towards tactics.

No GW introduced a new way to make money, a way to sell hordes of chariots and to sell high elves with only making minimal effort on the model side. GW could have done so many different things to give infantry a better chance bu they choose not to, i think half of he problem is that high elves use spears which is a very rare sight in warhammer, perhaps if they had the option for HW+SH that could have changed things dramatically but they choose not to as this would have required new models. It was a no brainer way of doing things, to me it seems like they didnt put that much effort into he creation of this book, with alot of things i had read with GW struggling to make money on a noticeable scale this may explain this.


I think most people will agree that Chaos Warriors need some upgrade (or point drop) come the new Chaos Army Book [I would suppose that they get at least 2 attack base]. However, they are still T4 with 4+ armor save (3+ with shield), so they can sustain charge much better than 6th edition High Elves.

Im trying not to go into this, this really is a problem with elite infantry in general, CW has 5+ save, halberds has been the best option, frankly like most chaos players mine seem to collect more and more dust unless i feel like using a different style army. On a side note i actually started a topic on this ;)


I am a bit sad that shooting is so clearly the easy way to counter HE. But the truth is that one does not have to go to gunline in order to be able damage HE with shooting. First attempt of an army have been somewhere between 50 and 100 troops, most combinations being closer to 50 than 100.

Well with the new rules what do you expect? its that or chariots nether option is that fun to use


I think that requiring different units to handle different kind of armies are not necessarily bad thing. How many had to change their armies to be able to deal with Wood Elves and their hard hitting skirmishers? Does rice (or fall) of high magic armies affect army construction? Naturally it does. Wouldn't it be dull if GW had made new army book for High Elves and it could have been beaten with same tricks and same tactics than the previous book?

no but this is to a extreme, we are not on about adding in a few different units we are on about total redesign of list here, until High elves i have never had to change a list to such a extreme so it turns warhammer into magic, this isnt about tactics then is it, its about who better at using a army book, in a way this is just a own goal for GW as then so many units just wont be sold in effect losing money, each to his own i guess.

@ EVC well i know i dont really need to go into your post, we have these discussions before and besides i have the pleasure of being at my parents tonight!

Chiungalla
26-10-2007, 20:54
ok, so you attack in 3 ranks, 3 wide, thats 9 attacks for start, i dont really think spearmen are as much of a issue, i already said this in previous posts however.

Spears don't fight in 2 or 3 ranks against opponents in there flank.


ASF isnt the answer, as i said having a 4+ save for spearmen would have been better

No, this isn't the answer, because it wouldn't change anything.
And the High Elf infantry would still had to deal with a unsolved problem.
So still, there would be all cavalry High Elves all around.


GW could have done so many different things to give infantry a better chance bu they choose not to

They choose to do the allways strikes first thing to infantry, and this will work good. It makes infantry a alternative for cavalry.

State any other thing, that turns a fragile and elite army with low numbers (as high elves are) into a good infantry force.


the stat increases with the old rules for swordmasters would have been fine

No, because they would not have any chance to stand versus heavy cavalry, and that's the whole point about being fine in this edition (and the last edition).
If a unit of close combat infantry can't stand a charge from cavalry, they are no good. And they are no choice if you want to win, against strong lists.
It is as simple as that.

Rioghan Murchadha
27-10-2007, 16:35
One thing many people are forgetting when calculating flank charges with fast cav.

Only rank bonus is calculated at the start of combat. Bonus for flank etc. is done at the end of combat, and is contingent on having at least US5 in the flanking unit. There are several examples above where a unit of fast cav is down to 2 members by the end of combat, and yet the poster is still claiming flank bonus and such.

Any small units of fast cav flanking swordmasters, white lions etc., who, in all honesty are not all that likely to be fielded in numbers less than 15 (they are too vulnerable to shooting otherwise), are going to be carved up to the point that they no longer negate ranks or provide flank/rear bonus.

Noldo
29-10-2007, 11:51
Well, if light cavalry is assumed to be 5 strong at the beginning (sensible assumption, right?):

against Swordmasters:
- 7x2 (very many players seems to advocate this option, worth ~250 points with full command). Average result is 2,22 kills (3 fast cavalry [hereinafter FC] fit base-to-base), so it is possible that FC does not gain flank bonus. However, they would lose the fight regardless and I do admit that only heavy troops (heavy cavalry or heavy infantry) can battle Swordmasters.

against White Lions:
- 7x2 (very many players seems to advocate this option, worth ~250 points with full command). Average result is 1,22 kills, clearly not enough to drop FC below US5. The fight would actually be quite close (WL win by outnubering).
- 5x3. Average result is 1,67 kills. Still FC clearly above US5. End result a bit more favourable to WL, but still quite close.
- 5x4. Average result 2,22 kills, so it is possible that FC drop below US5, depending on rolls. However, we are talking about unit worth over 300 points, so perhaps it should be able to take a flank charge by fast cavalry (worth some 150 points).

against Phoenix Guard:
- i would personally only field them in larger block (the benefit from their resilence and fear), but lets look them through as well:
- 7x2 (very many players seems to advocate this option, worth ~250 points with full command). Average result is 0,89 kills, clearly not enough to drop FC below US5. The fight would actually be quite close (PG win by outnubering), but PG are hard to kill.
- 5x3. Average result is 1,33 kills. Still FC clearly above US5. End result is favourable to PG since they are hard to kill.
- 5x4. Average result 1,78 kills, so unlikely that FC drop below US5, depending on rolls.

against Spermen:
- 5x4. Average result 0,83 kills. Fast cavalry could win this fight or Spearmen could fight tie because of outnumbering.
--------------------------------------------------

New HE will require tactics from both players and tactics can still win games. I think that only tactic made obsolete by new HE is "charge HE infantry frontally with whatever unit you can and break them".

Getting flank charges against HE is not going to be easy, they are still mobile (M5) infatry. But they are also ranked infantry and therefore much less mobile than for example Wood Elves. And if you are not charging, the ASF matters very little anyway (of course Empire detachments provide exception here).

But getting flank charges against HE is not going to be impossible. There are going to be quite few units and models on the table on HE side. Just try to compose few lists based on rumours and you will found out that althoug the army book might include something great for each opportunity, it is very hard (I would guess impossible) to include all those elements into single list. If you want many supportive units, your main battle forces must be spearmen. If you want many units of elites, they better support each other since there is no going to be other support around (even 6 special slots is only 6 special slots and those elites burn through the points quickly). Add "mandatory" mage (base cost + level + magic ~180pt), perhaps fighty noble (base cost + magic + equipment ~100-120 pt) or something and the points are quickly spent.

thorgrim
29-10-2007, 19:49
Its how i picture High Elves fighting. I play Dwarfs. I've already had a game against the new High Elves. They won but it wasn't a total run away massacre. Always sritke first wasn't that big a deal as the Elves were charging any way. The only unit i charged was a unit of white lions. My long beards took a kicking mainly due to not getting a support charge from miners.

As to getting hacked apart by archers before striking. NOT GONNA HAPPEN! There only str 3 they fight in 1 rank. Any unit that thinks that its gonna rout Elves in a single round of combat doesn't have anything to worry about. Watchout for sword masters and white lions.

Rioghan Murchadha
30-10-2007, 06:13
As to getting hacked apart by archers before striking. NOT GONNA HAPPEN! There only str 3 they fight in 1 rank.

It's not so much that, it's that taking them out requires a rethink.. Units that could be tasked to do it before with little to no loss may now end up having a problem... I.E. dogs of war duellists, Beast herds etc.. You're going to end up losing men to a unit that really 'should' fold like a group of schoolgirls when hit by a dedicated hand to hand unit.

EvC
30-10-2007, 10:49
I don't really have a problem with the Archers being able to stand up to inferior attackers, just wish that they had decent models to reflect the fact that they're not actually a bunch of sissy girls...

night2501
30-10-2007, 21:05
I thin people making comparasion such as X unit should not lose to a flank charge of Y unit becaus eis mor expensive ... should just stay quiet and silent, because then everione could claim similar things, like OMG how comes a cannon can kill my chosen chaos knights ... or how comes that cheap unit of goblins that cost half the point my unit of elite super warriors can beat me only because they got a flank charge! ... or worse why my cavalry with a 2+ save geared for combat that managed somehow to avoid the RBT was safe of magic and managed to get a flank charge, has to loose when charging a unit costing more or less the same and after al lthat work ... just a couple of example

oh and also not all fast cavalry are for suport there are fast cavalries made for HtH, so please think about all the factor before speaking ...
miselve, I think HE players will not even able to use those 6 slots, if they want a solid army, just play around with the manths for a while and you will see wath I speak about...
sure they can fill that with lot of small units, but that would be too sensible to shoting/magic/chariots etc...
I guess it will be balanced, looking forward to tear them apart with my WE ...

and BTW wath the problem you people have with the WE army, is not a weak army I know, but the book is quite well balanced, maybe anoying to face but balanced, ork are quite powerfull but they ar eincredible unreliable, that`s the point of them!, empire is quite fine too, and well dwarfs, the only problem is the anvil not needing LoS or having range

Stormtrooper Clark
30-10-2007, 22:24
For the record, I play Dark Elves.

Personally, I think they needed it more or less, I can sort of imagine them fight like that (Although I imagine Wood Elf Wardancers more but hey...) since High Elf Regiments don't really stand much of a chance against heavy hitting stuff such as Chaos Knights, plus it makes the 'revenge' alot more satisfying (Assuming they ain't all butchered)

Shimmergloom
30-10-2007, 23:29
Plus everyone has plenty of cannons to deal with those lion chariots,

Did I fall through a timewarp? When did skaven, greenskins, lizzies, WE, DE, HE, Ogres, brets, BoC, Hordes, VC and TK get cannons in their army lists?

Or is everyone just planning to play DoW, Dwarfs and Empire when facing high elves?

EvC
31-10-2007, 00:54
Soot for the Soot God! Never forget :D

Mind you, after a charge of Swordmasters and two Commander on a unit of Savage Orcs tonight resulted in one Commander dead from fighting alone and the entire unit of Swordmasters run down and destroyed, I'm starting to think maybe Swordmasters should be pumped up a bit :D

Lord Raneus
31-10-2007, 01:20
What I find irritating is that this rule makes crap-all sense fluffwise.

Your militia bowmen strike before my DE Assassin, whose entire life is dedicated to learning how to kill people? Please.:rolleyes:

Your militia bowman strikes before my charging Cold One Knight with a ten-foot lance? Give me a break.:rolleyes:

The problem here is that it ranges the spectrum from not affecting the armies like Dwarves at all, to royally screwing over the Dark Elves. I charge my CoK into a unit of Swordmasters? I'm going to lose like 3 before they even get to fight back. Gah.

At best, this should have been given to the elite units, and shouldn't work against lance-equipped cavalry, or special characters with a higher Initiative. Militia bowmen striking before a favored champion of the Chaos gods, or a chariot, doesn't really make sense.

At least I can still use CoC to break up units with impact hits.

Stella Cadente
31-10-2007, 01:36
Or is everyone just planning to play Dwarfs when facing high elves?
just deleted the other 2 cus this is the only army people really use anymore (around my area), so the answer is yes:D

Lord Raneus
31-10-2007, 01:39
Orks'll be fine too, there's just too many of them. :P

But regardless, I am not playing against High Elves until the new DE book comes out, because I will get a serious butt-whupping.

marv335
31-10-2007, 01:48
Orks'll be fine too, there's just too many of them. :P

But regardless, I am not playing against High Elves until the new DE book comes out, because I will get a serious butt-whupping.

You're going to give up that easily?
you're not even going to try?
there are plenty of ways for a DE army to take on a HE force.
why not try a clik game instead?

Lord Raneus
31-10-2007, 02:25
My issue is that, for 1 pt more than my spearman, they fight in 3 ranks, almost never break (against DE), and strike first. I get Hatred, and only against HE. Whoop-de-do.

Their elites will slaughter mine, heck, Executioners would probably even die to Spearmen at this point because of the massive number of attacks. :P My main problem is that I really don't see any way to beat a unit like Swordmasters in CC without utterly overwhelming numbers. CoKs will take a beating, Dark Riders just get mauled, even Chariots might be in trouble if impact hits don't work well.

Unwise
31-10-2007, 03:08
I just finished a game against empire using my new HE. The empire list was a horde army, strangely without detachments, just block after block of 20 man core troops. My list was 16PG, 16SM, 7DP, 2RBT, 20Spear and 1 mage, 1 commander. It was a 1500 point game.

Here are a few observations:
- Barring some nice terrain, once the battle lines are reached, HE must break a unit and overrun significantly every turn to avoid getting flanked by a horde. No matter how many I kill there were always more waiting to charge me.

- It was rare that I did not charge, since I really needed the movement + overrun to avoid being swamped.

- Striking first was very handy when faced with a situation where I had three units in front of me and I knew that they would just flee if I charged. Then flank me, I just moved up a little near them and waited to be charged. This was the only fight in which ASF made a difference, but I still lost.

- The seer item + howler wind was a nice combo, but I was expecting more shooting that I actually faced.

- DP are very nasty, like all cav though, they may win the fight, but not by enough that a ranked unit does not have a good chance of holding.

- SM are the mix-master of death, however mine only killed one unit before they were blasted to peices by magic and shooting (howler wind failed)

- I did not have enough units for charge redirection to be effective, I thought it would be a major factor with HE.

- Against a horde of 125 point units, my 3 infantry units would have to kill every unit they charged to have a hope of acrueing enough victory points for a victory. In my case I persued pitifully so it took me 2-3 turns to wipe out each unit.

- With such a small army, I have nothing to stay back and babysit my RBTs. I don't really have the points to buy a defensive unit to stay back near my deployment zone. Possilbe future options include: 5 WL (maybe with champ who has the 2+ armor save item), eagles lingering behind the battle line rather than going for enemy war machines, some fast cav used in the same manner.

- PG just don't do enough damage to make up the difference in ranks + outnumber, even if their wardsave works, they struggled against even a 125 unit of 20 empire halberds. They are only slightly more killy than the empire halberds yet they need to make up 2 ranks + 1 for outnumbering.

- PG tend to survive to make it into combat, as shooting at a unit with a 4+ ward is too frustrating, people go for other things. I suggest giving the enemy few other options or else the shooting protection is wasted. IE I would not put them near my SM.

In the end I finished the game with no models left on the board at all, fortunetly I killed alot of empire guys and learnt alot so it was not a total waste. PG lost to standard empire troops, DP persued off the board and came back on surrounded and unable to move, SM were shot down. Spears ended up being flanked once the other units were toasted.

I will add any more observations as I think of them.

Rioghan Murchadha
31-10-2007, 03:33
I don't really have a problem with the Archers being able to stand up to inferior attackers, just wish that they had decent models to reflect the fact that they're not actually a bunch of sissy girls...
Problem here is, the 2 units that I mentioned are not by any stretch, inferior attackers. A beast herd, and unit of duellists, are both dedicated close combat units with the same weapon skill as the typical elf (4). Ultimately, if they survive your shooting, and charge the archers, they should be, barring hideously bad luck, guaranteed the win.


What I find irritating is that this rule makes crap-all sense fluffwise.

Your militia bowmen strike before my DE Assassin, whose entire life is dedicated to learning how to kill people? Please.:rolleyes:

Your militia bowman strikes before my charging Cold One Knight with a ten-foot lance? Give me a break.:rolleyes:

Please, oh please, go back and actually read some high elf fluff before posting things like this. I played HE for 16 years before finally coming to my senses and getting rid of them. :p

Citizen levies are NOT militia. All high elves are required to rotate into the millitary for a period of time every so many years. They are also required to maintain their own weapons and armour. Typically, what you consider a grunt spearman, is wearing a suit of heirloom armour that has been in his family for hundreds of years or more, and he's seen more millitary service in his lifetime than most entire units of empire soldiery have combined.

I realize that the 6th edition army book totally rapes previous background and says that archers are the younger, less experienced troops, but that still gives them far more experience than a typical human, rat, ork, lizard, etc.. Also, the 6th ed book was so devoid of decent background that I tend to ignore it altogether.

I do however, agree that striking before assassins is stupid.

Spoonie
31-10-2007, 07:37
Your militia bowman strikes before my charging Cold One Knight with a ten-foot lance? Give me a break.

Almost like how my warhounds go first when they charge your spearmen. If you can't hit me with your 10 foot pole before I hit you with my face, then apparently a CoK's 10 foot pole can't hit first against a high elf archers iron discipline either.

I've said this for awhile, but I wanted GW to do with High Elves and military discipline what they did for Wood Elves and mobility. Seems like they did a pretty good job to me, but then again I'm not one to over-react - or one to pretend that Warhammer is won primarily through killing models. If they follow suit and give Dark Elves an appropriate reflection of their love of bathing in the blood of the innocent, the circle will be complete, and DE players will play other elves again.

Lord Raneus
31-10-2007, 16:49
Basically, the way I see it, High Elves should not be striking before any other elves, especially Dark Elves, who are supposed to have even better martial skills then they do. Humans, orks, and dwarves, maybe. But striking before other elves who are essentially identical seems a bit odd.

FurryMiguell
31-10-2007, 18:08
As an Cult of Slaanesh player, i think this is new "strike first" rule is stupid, since my army is totally relying on fast attacks where i get to charge and strike first. And i play a lot against HE, and if I'm gonna loose my greatest advantage to "1 smal rule", then I'll have to think all new tactics form my Cult of slaanesh, and I really can't afford buying more miniatures for my army now!

And a question pops into my mind: Why would HE be faster than DE, and Deamonettes. THAT doesn't make sense to me...:confused:

marv335
31-10-2007, 18:14
Personally I enjoy trying to come up with new tactics.
I've just picked up a Hight elves army. It's a new playstyle for me.
I also used to Play Tomb Kings and more recently, Dwarves.
You think you're having to come up with something new?
I've got two new phases to master ;)

FurryMiguell
31-10-2007, 20:29
yeah, I'm playing Empire, Skaven, VC and Chaos as well, but DE is my favouritte, and i spent a lot of nerve shattering hours planning my armylist, and it took more than enough time and money to buy and paint it all. I just can't afford to do any drastic changes to my armylist... Allthough its the fact that Archers might strike first that worry me most. And it still doesn't make sence to me, compared to DE...

Lord Raneus
31-10-2007, 21:31
Like I said, DE are royally screwed against HE until they get their new 'Dex. 1pt less for the basic spearman is simply not enough when they get special rules usable against everyone, one usuable against us, and the ability to basically rip us to shreds.

For example, Dark Riders are pretty much useless now, or at least severly impaired. Charge that unit of SM to strike first? Nope, sorry, you're all dead. Same with CoK.

Rioghan Murchadha
31-10-2007, 21:48
Like I said, DE are royally screwed against HE until they get their new 'Dex. 1pt less for the basic spearman is simply not enough when they get special rules usable against everyone, one usuable against us, and the ability to basically rip us to shreds.

For example, Dark Riders are pretty much useless now, or at least severly impaired. Charge that unit of SM to strike first? Nope, sorry, you're all dead. Same with CoK.

For starters, Dark Riders charging swordmasters in the front were pretty much screwed before. Assuming you're chanting the MSU mantra of 5 man DR units, you're going to kill 1.3 with spears, and 0.825 with horses.. that averages out to 2 dead swordmasters.. now, the champion, and remaining 2 guys fight back dealing 2.75 wounds, against which, if you didn't take a shield, you get no save. Nevermind if the unit champ was holding a magic weapon or something.. Now, even if you round down to 2 wounds for the SM, they still probably have a standard, at least a rank, and definitely outnumber.. See, you were still hooped.

If you're unwilling to put at least 1 more model in your DR units, and use their superior maneuverability to hit the SMs in the flank where they only get 2 or 3 models to attack, and you cancel ranks, and claim flank bonus, then you deserve what you get. The only things that get totally screwed by this rule in the DE army is the rank and file troopers that don't have RXBs.

Eldarion
31-10-2007, 21:52
Does anyone Know that High elves cost loads of points, so normally outnumbered, crappy armour save. Worse then the race of men!. ASF wont make a difference just makes us last an extra turn in combat.

FurryMiguell
31-10-2007, 22:01
I have this Itchy feeling that I wont rest easily before I reply to the three posts before me. Personally, I dont think I'll ever even consider charging my DR into a unit of SMs. That would be next to suecide. And I still think DE would have serious problems fighting HE. I can't see how any DE unit is supose to do a lot of harm to any HE unit, when they loose their advantage of charging. With their terrible armorsave, even HE archers would be able to kill a decent number of DE troops before their turn to strike back. Given about 50% of their attacks hit.

And one more thing: This might me a stupid post, but you cant take THAT from me!

zak
31-10-2007, 22:26
I have to agree. The only viable unit now is the DE Chariot and Hydra due to their high strength. The rest are going to get chewed up. Even Cold One Knights are vulnerable. To make it worse DE aren't going to be redone for close to a year.

Eldarion
31-10-2007, 22:29
Sure the Dark elves are disadvantaged now but they are sixth edition. Dark elves will get thier momment of glory when thier new book come out.

Finnigan2004
31-10-2007, 22:34
Does anyone seriously wish that the new high elf army book was balanced against the old dark elf book, which might just be the worst book out there? Seriously, no matter what the high elves got, the dark elves would come off worse against them. The dark elves need to be rebalanced, and I'm sure that they soon will be.

P.S.... Why would one get into combat with swordmasters with dark riders when you can march block them and shoot them up with repeater crossbows. It's great when a new army book makes people actually think about things, rather than continuing to rely on a no brainer frontal charge with cavalry.

knightwire
31-10-2007, 22:42
I have to agree. The only viable unit now is the DE Chariot and Hydra due to their high strength. The rest are going to get chewed up. Even Cold One Knights are vulnerable. To make it worse DE aren't going to be redone for close to a year.


You should include that this is against Swordmasters. Most armies are going to have issues vs SM units in CC. The other HE infantry blocks are still vulnerable to most of the same units and tactics as they were before.

Combine that with a HE General that tries to take too much of the good stuff and you may find it easier to flank than 6th edition as well. We shall see soon enough.

Lord Raneus
31-10-2007, 23:18
When did I say that the Dark Riders were charging the Swordmasters? :P

My point was that overall, they are much worse against HE because they are essentially Warriors with a better armor save, still striking last. You can't deny that Dark Elves are overall much worse off then before compared to HE now.

At least, the spearmen are. Again, for 1 pt more you get two rules usuable against all comers. Not exactly fair.

And yes, the DE are going to get a boost, but right now they're in a bit of trouble.

Chiungalla
31-10-2007, 23:46
And yes, the DE are going to get a boost, but right now they're in a bit of trouble.

Yes, they are.

And no, there is no way to make good new books in a whole new edition, without causing serious troube to old army books, out of old editions.

The only good way is to give those old army books that suffer the most, a quick (as possible) update. And it seems to me, that GW is doing this, in giving Dark Elves, Chaos and Vampires the next army books.

Lord Raneus
01-11-2007, 03:02
Agreed. Armies like Dwarves and Empire, that probably wouldn't be charging Elves anyways, don't really have too much of a problem. This only significantly affects armies like the other Elves and things like Ogre Kingdoms where they're faster then elves, but won't get the charge.

Of course, Ogres will still mow down Elves like wheat. :P

Rioghan Murchadha
01-11-2007, 03:12
I have this Itchy feeling that I wont rest easily before I reply to the three posts before me. Personally, I dont think I'll ever even consider charging my DR into a unit of SMs. That would be next to suecide. And I still think DE would have serious problems fighting HE. I can't see how any DE unit is supose to do a lot of harm to any HE unit, when they loose their advantage of charging. With their terrible armorsave, even HE archers would be able to kill a decent number of DE troops before their turn to strike back. Given about 50% of their attacks hit.

And one more thing: This might me a stupid post, but you cant take THAT from me!
Simple.. Don't charge a HE spear block from the front.. They only fight in one rank to the side and back. Don't charge swordmasters or white lions in the front.. Shoot em.

HE archers aren't going to kill much of anything... Against warriors, they're going to hit 50%, wound 50% of those, and with the warriors going HW+Shield, 50% of those will not save. 10 archers is 5 hits, 2.5 wounds, 1.25 kills. THAT's really going to sway combat against 20 DE warriors... Corsairs, witch elves etc.. are all going to carve them up worse.. You're just going to lose a few guys doing it is all... Unfortunately, you can't **** and moan about SoA as it compares to a book that has been the red headed step child of WFB for a long time.

Lord Raneus
01-11-2007, 03:21
Wasting 20 Spearmen, Witch Elves or Corsairs to kill Archers doesn't really appeal to me. :P

knightwire
01-11-2007, 04:27
When did I say that the Dark Riders were charging the Swordmasters? :P

Heh... that would be when you said:

"For example, Dark Riders are pretty much useless now, or at least severly impaired. Charge that unit of SM to strike first? Nope, sorry, you're all dead. Same with CoK. "

:)



My point was that overall, they are much worse against HE because they are essentially Warriors with a better armor save, still striking last. You can't deny that Dark Elves are overall much worse off then before compared to HE now.

Sure, they are worst off. Also human armies are generally worst off as well I can agree with that. But then I'm ok with that, it's how it should be on a general basis.



At least, the spearmen are. Again, for 1 pt more you get two rules usuable against all comers. Not exactly fair.


The DE book is not the standard to be comparing anything to IMHO.

Unwise
01-11-2007, 04:46
If the forums are to be believed the HE army will consist of nothing but Swordmasters. No other elite unit will see the table. I hope that this is not true.

A good proportion of the HE army faces the same problem as many elites, they simply don't have enough attacks for their elite status to mean anything. Lets take the example of Pheonix Guard vs any trash unit with lightarmor and shield, it makes no real difference if they are goblins or empire swordsmen.

250 Points of Pheonix Guard (7x2) vs 125 Points of Empire Swordsman (5x4) that made their fear roll.

8 attacks = 5.3 hits = 3.5 wounds = 2.37 kills.

In return:

3.6 attacks = 1.8 hits = .9 wounds = 0.3 kills. Note that if they have failed their fear roll, it makes sod-all difference anyway as they won't kill anything regardless.

So on average, elves kill 2, empire kill none. The PG will then lose the combat due to the empire having 2 more ranks and outnumber. Thus, on average, PG lose to a unit that costs half as much as them. It is a significant change in the standard variation for them to get a draw. It is a very slim chance of them killing the 4 guys needed to get a victory in the battle.

The whitelions have a decent chance of beating the empire unit, but won't do so by enough to give them any high chance of breaking, they average about 4.4 kills.

Keep in mind we are talking about 15 point models against 3-6 point models here. PG and WL have their uses, but winning combat is unfortunetly seldom one of them.

Stormtrooper Clark
01-11-2007, 17:27
What I find irritating is that this rule makes crap-all sense fluffwise.

Your militia bowmen strike before my DE Assassin, whose entire life is dedicated to learning how to kill people? Please.:rolleyes:

Your militia bowman strikes before my charging Cold One Knight with a ten-foot lance? Give me a break.:rolleyes:

The problem here is that it ranges the spectrum from not affecting the armies like Dwarves at all, to royally screwing over the Dark Elves. I charge my CoK into a unit of Swordmasters? I'm going to lose like 3 before they even get to fight back. Gah.

At best, this should have been given to the elite units, and shouldn't work against lance-equipped cavalry, or special characters with a higher Initiative. Militia bowmen striking before a favored champion of the Chaos gods, or a chariot, doesn't really make sense.

At least I can still use CoC to break up units with impact hits.

I imagine we'll only have to suck it up for a little while before we get our update, while I doubt we'll get the same rule, I imagine somje units (Assasains and such) will have the advantage of striking first, even against the High Elves.

WillFightForFood
01-11-2007, 18:30
Unwise is correct in his example. This rule may make the HE better on a model for model basis, it doesn't make them better on a point for point basis. If I'm playing Skaven, O&G, Empire, etc I will still have several times more models on the board to equal up to his speed. That will allow me a tremendous advange in terms of setting up multiple charges, flank charges, and outnumbering. Of course the HE player can increase the size of his elite units but then that further reduces his available unit options. Where I expect to see an increase in units played is not in the specials and rares (even though more are available), but in the core section. Cheaper spearmen are far scarier to my armies than more swordsmasters because they can be fielded in larger blocks to take advantage of ranks, outnumber, and get many attacks.


Of course, Ogres will still mow down Elves like wheat. :P

Sigged

Scythe
02-11-2007, 10:01
Sure the Dark elves are disadvantaged now but they are sixth edition. Dark elves will get thier momment of glory when thier new book come out.

The only thing I am afraid of now is that they just do something like 'ah, lets just give dark elves (ethernal) hatred, and the job's a good one'. Apart from the double edged sword the hatred rule is (always pursue is harsh on an army as fragile as dark elves), it would do nothing against HEs... What is the point of hatred if you are dead long before you strike?

FurryMiguell
02-11-2007, 10:03
Any rank-and-file HE troop striking first against the most skilled DE fighters you can get? Thats just wrong... Ok, i guess its fine when you consider the long spears some of them carry, but archers? After what I've read of you others posts, I can see this is the one thing that is most picked on.

I wont belive this rule to be true before I'm holding the new HE book I'm my cold, dead-like hands...:eyebrows:

Stella Cadente
02-11-2007, 15:57
If the forums are to be believed the HE army will consist of nothing but Swordmasters. No other elite unit will see the table. I hope that this is not true.

Nah, its just the one unit people are enjoying bitching about the most, some people (like ME) won't even be taking any, but my force and ASF will still be called cheesy and there will still be people bitching on about a skill that really is not that bad and is not game destroying in the slightest, although my strongest warrior will be str3 so if someone does moan about it they get a slap



I wont belive this rule to be true before I'm holding the new HE book I'm my cold, dead-like hands...:eyebrows:
people that have the rulebook have already confirmed it AND GW has already confirmed it, and its visible in this months battle report, not believing it when all the evidence is right there is a little silly

speedygogo
03-11-2007, 08:52
I have a new high elf book and the ASF is a huge rule but drain magic is game changing. The elf army I played had:
Lvl 4 mage on moon dragon with book of hoeth
lvl 2 dragon mage on sun dragon
2 unit of 10 archers
2 lion chariots
3 reapeater bolt throwers

My army cosisted of:
1 thane with anvil
2 slayer heroes
3 units of 10 quarrelers
2 bolt throwers and 3 units of 20 slayers

Anyhow, the changes have made the high elves a superpowered army. I was barely able squeek out a minor victory. However, my list is built for fun not to be competative. My unbreakable units had a hell of a time with the lion chariots which can deal out 6 str5 atks plus an additional d6 atks for impact hits. The high are still beatable but you have an uber army to do it. A good general with the new elves will be formidable.

Ogres are just plain nerfed against the HE but dwarfs, empire, brets, woodies, skaven and dark elves will do just fine. Talk of the DE doing poorly is just wrong. What people forget about the dark elves is they have great shooting, magic and movement. Their hth can be just as good too. Re-rollable hits against b/c of hatred and re-rollable wounds from the cauldren of blood means that High elfs still have a great chance of losing to their dark brethern.

To be honest I don't know how a vampire list would do. All the upgrades help the HE perform better against the current VC.

Finnigan2004
03-11-2007, 16:59
I have a new high elf book and the ASF is a huge rule but drain magic is game changing. The elf army I played had:
Lvl 4 mage on moon dragon with book of hoeth
lvl 2 dragon mage on sun dragon
2 unit of 10 archers
2 lion chariots
3 reapeater bolt throwers

My army cosisted of:
1 thane with anvil
2 slayer heroes
3 units of 10 quarrelers
2 bolt throwers and 3 units of 20 slayers

Anyhow, the changes have made the high elves a superpowered army. I was barely able squeek out a minor victory. However, my list is built for fun not to be competative. My unbreakable units had a hell of a time with the lion chariots which can deal out 6 str5 atks plus an additional d6 atks for impact hits. The high are still beatable but you have an uber army to do it. A good general with the new elves will be formidable.

Ogres are just plain nerfed against the HE but dwarfs, empire, brets, woodies, skaven and dark elves will do just fine. Talk of the DE doing poorly is just wrong. What people forget about the dark elves is they have great shooting, magic and movement. Their hth can be just as good too. Re-rollable hits against b/c of hatred and re-rollable wounds from the cauldren of blood means that High elfs still have a great chance of losing to their dark brethern.

To be honest I don't know how a vampire list would do. All the upgrades help the HE perform better against the current VC.

Um, so you won the game using what you think is a fun list against a very unbalanced high elf list. Why do you think that high elves are superpowered?

Spoonie
03-11-2007, 22:40
although my strongest warrior will be str3 so if someone does moan about it they get a slap

Come on now, heroes and white lions are str 4! :P

Did I read somewhere earlier that the spearelves only fight in 3 ranks to the front? Good news for empire detachments!

zak
03-11-2007, 23:01
You are quite correct. Spearelves only get the special rule to the front. Hit then in the flank anf you face 4-5 very fragile elves with a very worried look on their face. The flanks of the HE army are still vulnerable to fast cavalry and is the bane of any HE block except SM who you just shoot or stay away from!

That HE list is just silly. Good against some, but will suffer against others (undead comes to mind).

FurryMiguell
04-11-2007, 00:04
Uhm. Is there anyone visiting this thread, who have actually read the new HE rules and can tell me "yes, ALL HE units have the strike first special rule". Just need to know for sure, before planning my evil deeds! I'm too lazy to read the whole tread...

Frep
04-11-2007, 00:08
Yup, they have the "Speed of Asyrun" (sp?) its in this months white dwarf, so no worries about asking specific questions about an unreleashed army book. Hope that helps

NecronBob
04-11-2007, 01:01
Um, so you won the game using what you think is a fun list against a very unbalanced high elf list. Why do you think that high elves are superpowered?

I'm glad I'm not the only one who thought that was an odd statement. That whole paragraph is actually off: They are super-powered, but you beat them. They require an uber list to beat, but you beat them with a list that was just for fun. It sounds like they might be fine if an uber-elf list can be beaten by a "just for fun list."

scratchbuilt
04-11-2007, 01:07
Its a mistake.

If the elves are charging - they strike first anyway. If they are being charged - well with a small elite army, you have to be choosing the combats and getting the charges, or you'll lose.

And after the first round the HE's high initiative should do it anyway.

Stella Cadente
04-11-2007, 01:20
Come on now, heroes and white lions are str 4! :P

well heroes are heroes, it doesn't matter if there str4, and my force will only PROBABLY have white lion chariots at the very most

scarvet
04-11-2007, 01:23
Yeah, but even with a great weapon.

For speedygogo: that list is as funny as your dwarf, you should thank god he did take Cloak of Bread and the Anti-anvil magic item.

For zak, if your fast cavalry didn't get pwn by bolt thrower that is....

Rioghan Murchadha
04-11-2007, 02:11
For speedygogo: that list is as funny as your dwarf, you should thank god he did take Cloak of Bread and the Anti-anvil magic item.


Yeah.. well, you know dwarfs.. The cheese generated by the Thorek anvil goes really well with the cloak of bread... ;)

I apologize in advance, but I couldn't resist..

speedygogo
04-11-2007, 05:42
Um, so you won the game using what you think is a fun list against a very unbalanced high elf list. Why do you think that high elves are superpowered?


I thought this because the high elf army wasn't strong in hth. A unit of 10 archers beat a 15 man slayer unit for 2 straight combats. If my brother had brought units of white lions or swordmasters I would have been blown out. More strength 5 atks would have destroyed my no armor dwarves.

speedygogo
04-11-2007, 05:48
Yeah.. well, you know dwarfs.. The cheese generated by the Thorek anvil goes really well with the cloak of bread... ;)

I apologize in advance, but I couldn't resist..

He did take the anti-anvil item but not the cloak of beards. Almost my entire army is unbreakable and immune to fear. All the cloak of beards would have done is give my army the bonus of hatred. I have a 2-5 record with the my non-soc slayers and they ussually die to the man in turn 6. Most of the people I game with are really good and ussually place high in large tournies. However, my brother was playing the new elves and he's a little tactiaclly impaired.

FurryMiguell
05-11-2007, 23:10
Ah, finally I know for sure the rule is true.

And I never heard, or played against, any so-called "uber elf army" before. Does and "uber" HE army list exsist at all? Even with the new rules?

From the guy that still think HE are a bunch of weak and ancient snobbs...

Dranthar
06-11-2007, 00:25
Ogres are just plain nerfed against the HE

I beg to differ. Ogres can get impact hits on the charge (which would go before ASF), their heroes will still eat the HE heroes for breakfast, their mobility rivals/beats the high elves and with multiple wounds per model, they stand a better chance than most of actually hitting back.

I'm predicting that Ogres will be one of the harder armies for High elves to beat. :D

Stella Cadente
06-11-2007, 02:14
Ogres are just plain nerfed against the HE
ogres are nerfed against EVERYTHING, so it makes no difference.

speedygogo
06-11-2007, 03:33
I beg to differ. Ogres can get impact hits on the charge (which would go before ASF), their heroes will still eat the HE heroes for breakfast, their mobility rivals/beats the high elves and with multiple wounds per model, they stand a better chance than most of actually hitting back.

I'm predicting that Ogres will be one of the harder armies for High elves to beat. :D

You're wrong! I'm primarily an Ogre kindom player and have played somewhere around 90 games with the ogre kingdoms. They could get impact hits but the Reapter bolt throwers magic and shooting will kill enough ogres to prevent it. The high elves can dominate magic, shooting and HtH. leadship 8-9 elves aren't going to be greatly affected by fear. Ogres had a hard time with them before and now the new book makes it even tougher because we the ogres finally get to combat the elves will be striking first.