PDA

View Full Version : What If? The Emperor's Role After the Heresy



mick005usa
23-10-2007, 10:46
Let's say the Emperor wasn't wounded to the point where only his internment in the Golden Throne would save him. Let's suspend conventional 40k history for a moment and say that he slew Horus easily and was uninjured after the fight.

Can we come up with a rough idea of the Emperor's next steps? How would he rebuild his empire. What role would the Primarch's play in his plans? How would he address those that turned to Chaos? How would the "no-religions" axiom that had defined the Imperium during the Great Crusade hold up after the realization of the depths of Chaos? Would the Church still be formed without the dead Emperor? These are but a handful of the questions that arise. The entire shape of the Imperium would be dramatically altered if we change just one aspect of the Heresy.

So, what do we think?

I think the Imperium would certainly emerge as a more secular place with a living emperor. Clearly, this will all raise questions about what will allow the humans to travel in the warp. Too many questions...

Nazguire
23-10-2007, 11:00
Let's say the Emperor wasn't wounded to the point where only his internment in the Golden Throne would save him. Let's suspend conventional 40k history for a moment and say that he slew Horus easily and was uninjured after the fight.

Can we come up with a rough idea of the Emperor's next steps? How would he rebuild his empire. What role would the Primarch's play in his plans? How would he address those that turned to Chaos? How would the "no-religions" axiom that had defined the Imperium during the Great Crusade hold up after the realization of the depths of Chaos? Would the Church still be formed without the dead Emperor? These are but a handful of the questions that arise. The entire shape of the Imperium would be dramatically altered if we change just one aspect of the Heresy.

So, what do we think?

I think the Imperium would certainly emerge as a more secular place with a living emperor. Clearly, this will all raise questions about what will allow the humans to travel in the warp. Too many questions...

Well...the Webway portal that was busted open in the Imperial Dungeons would still be open...so we'd have a living but still imprisoned Emperor.

pookie
23-10-2007, 12:35
Well...the Webway portal that was busted open in the Imperial Dungeons would still be open...so we'd have a living but still imprisoned Emperor.

and on top of this he would want to hunt the Fallen Primachs and Legions down and annhilate them.

Ktotwf
23-10-2007, 19:45
Assuming that he gets the whole "Webway" and Chaos Primarchs thing sorted out, we would have, on the whole, a much more proactive and offensively minded Imperium.

A larger percentage of the Imperium's latent resources would be able to be mobilized to meet threats like the Hive Fleets or Armageddon...so we would probably have a stronger Imperium as a whole...and thus, fewer Xenos threats, fewer lost Imperial planets.

The scene looks altogether rosier for the Imperium.

Brother Siccarius
23-10-2007, 21:12
and on top of this he would want to hunt the Fallen Primachs and Legions down and annhilate them.

He didn't show much vengeance really, but he would hunt them down in order to defeat the chaos threat. It would just be more of a reluctant venture for him than a full out war. He never really wanted to fight his sons, like Horus, but he'd have to in order to maintain the Imperium.


Assuming that he gets the whole "Webway" and Chaos Primarchs thing sorted out, we would have, on the whole, a much more proactive and offensively minded Imperium.

A larger percentage of the Imperium's latent resources would be able to be mobilized to meet threats like the Hive Fleets or Armageddon...so we would probably have a stronger Imperium as a whole...and thus, fewer Xenos threats, fewer lost Imperial planets.

The scene looks altogether rosier for the Imperium.

The never-ending crusade of Humanity to take back and protect their people. The same crusade that threatened the chaos gods by introducing the largest percentage of their food to the ideas of Atheism, or accidentally supplanting the chaos gods in their various guises with the Emperor as a by-product.

I still hold that the Emperor survived his wounds from the fight with Horus, but because he was needed on the Golden Throne to hold the webway closed he's been holding it shut while watching humanity from the background. This is what the Leader of the Daughters of the Emperor saw during the Age of Apostacy when taken to the foot of the Golden Throne.

He who is doom
23-10-2007, 21:51
the chaos followers would be fraged because if we have a custodes army baying for blood

Eetion
23-10-2007, 21:55
Just like they were fragged the first time?
Nah... Id expect Imperial science and 'illumination' to still be strong.

fusilero
23-10-2007, 22:54
Nah, I expect the Emperor would still be stuck on the throne. However, I suspect he would be there and constantly order his people around. So there would be a central government, even if the Emperor can't leave the throne.

TheOverlord
24-10-2007, 10:35
Everyone would realize the Emperor's a stinky liar, cause he said the warp has nothing there but uncontrolled energies. Now we all know that's not entirely true, is it? :P

He mopes, and interns himself in the Golden Throne just to get away from the hate mail, and finds out he likes it there.

Timeline resumes.

Champion of Biel-Tan
24-10-2007, 16:10
I don't think very much will change. He'll stop the whole 'burn everyone' stuff and reorganise a bit, but still Tyranid Fleets, Ork waaghs, Eldar Raids etc etc etc will batter the Imperium.

Ktotwf
24-10-2007, 16:26
I don't think very much will change. He'll stop the whole 'burn everyone' stuff and reorganise a bit, but still Tyranid Fleets, Ork waaghs, Eldar Raids etc etc etc will batter the Imperium.

With the Emperor as a recognized head, the Imperium would be more centralized and better able to respond to such threats.

So, while the Hive Fleets and the Waaghs would still erupt, it would only be a matter of days or weeks before a huge proportion of the Imperium's strength focused on beating them back, rather than the Imperium having to improvise with local forces.

Kveld-Ulf
24-10-2007, 16:28
I'm just waiting for one of those human rights organizations to come and argue that keeping the Emperor on life support is cruel, and demand he be pulled from it.

Only to receive a bolter round through the head for being Traitoris Extremis.

Death Before Dishonour
24-10-2007, 17:55
He mopes, and interns himself in the Golden Throne just to get away from the hate mail, and finds out he likes it there.

Timeline resumes.

would be quite funny if that did happen

:p

silence
24-10-2007, 17:56
The Tau would have been made extinct by now, wiped from the face of the galaxy.

The war against the Necrons would be far more intense, as it has been hinted at that the higher the response level to there presence. Then the greater the weapons they activate, possibly devastating whole worlds.

The Orks would still have there empires, but be better contained.

The Tyranid threat would have been recognized earlier and maybe contained easier.

The SM may never have devolved into chapters, the legions would probably still exist as the standard SM unit.

However, if the SM never turned into chapters, how would the Emperor have rebuilt there numbers? I'm undecided if he would create new primarchs (2nd generation ones, even more powerful) or simply incerased the legion size

I'm not sure how the Eldar would fare, though I think that if the Emperor led a purge against them they would not survive for long.

The inquisition would be reduced in power if they existed at all.

Rockerfella
24-10-2007, 21:26
Well, I don't think the Imperium would be nearly as top heavy, or as paranoid as it is now. I think there would be chance for peace with Xeno's who wanted to co-exist peacefully with the Emperor and the Imperium. Maybe. I think there would be more chance of it, I should say, than there is now.

Cheers.

Ktotwf
24-10-2007, 23:41
Well, I don't think the Imperium would be nearly as top heavy, or as paranoid as it is now. I think there would be chance for peace with Xeno's who wanted to co-exist peacefully with the Emperor and the Imperium. Maybe. I think there would be more chance of it, I should say, than there is now.

Cheers.


Why? The only difference between the Imperium's policy vis-a-vis Xenos and the Emperor's policy is that in the Emperor's time they were much more efficient at exterminating the filthy buggers.

I have ABSOLUTELY NO idea where this idea that the Emperor was somehow more tolerant towards aliens than the Imperium is now comes from.

Captain Stern
25-10-2007, 00:19
We exterminated the Neanderthal for a reason. The Emperor knows why.

Ktotwf
25-10-2007, 00:30
We exterminated the Neanderthal for a reason. The Emperor knows why.

Those primitive Xenos were weak.

Captain Stern
25-10-2007, 00:38
The Emperor: "If we don't exterminate them now while we're strong and they're weak then they'll exterminate us later when we're weak and they're strong."

codicium_aeternum
25-10-2007, 00:42
accept the emperor as your true and ultimate leader and you were ok as far as i remember?

Captain Stern
25-10-2007, 00:45
If you're human.

Nazguire
25-10-2007, 00:56
accept the emperor as your true and ultimate leader and you were ok as far as i remember?

If you're a true blue human then sure.

Aliens didn't really get a choice. It was either "Leave us alone and we'll kill you at a later date" or "attack us and choose to end your civilisation now"

Not really a good looking future.

Captain Stern
25-10-2007, 01:14
The Emperor knew that if any one of these alien races had advantages of their own to rival humanity's - like humanity had the Emperor (a godlike guardian/leader creature existing in symbiosis with his own race) then they'd use it, at least eventually, to overthrow the rest of the galaxy's inhabitants. But they didn't posess this advantage or anything comparable. If he'd let them live, given them time to catch up, then who knows what these filthy, dirty and slimy buggers could have created?

If the Eldar had exterminated humanity when they had the chance, they wouldn't have had to worry about the Imperium in 40k would they?

Nazguire
25-10-2007, 01:21
The Emperor knew that if any one of these alien races had advantages of their own to rival humanity's - like humanity had the Emperor (a godlike guardian/leader creature existing in symbiosis with his own race) then they'd use it, at least eventually, to overthrow the rest of the galaxy's inhabitants. But they didn't posess this advantage or anything comparable. If he'd let them live, given them time to catch up, then who knows what these filthy, dirty and slimy buggers could have created?

If the Eldar had exterminated humanity when they had the chance, they wouldn't have had to worry about the Imperium in 40k would they?

I'm not denying it was the 'right' thing to do in the given context and political climate. Just it is a bleak decision for an alien race with the 63rd Expedition in orbit over their planet to have to make.

Given the capabilities and attitudes of species like the Laer and Megarachnid, I'm not surprised at all in the slightest that genocide was the chosen policy.

Captain Stern
25-10-2007, 01:25
I'm not denying it was the 'right' thing to do in the given context and political climate. Just it is a bleak decision for an alien race with the 63rd Expedition in orbit over their planet to have to make.

Given the capabilities and attitudes of species like the Laer and Megarachnid, I'm not surprised at all in the slightest that genocide was the chosen policy.

Oh, dear, sentimental young Nazguire, even today we're not living in a fairyland.

Nazguire
25-10-2007, 01:28
Oh, dear, sentimental young Nazguire, even today we're not living in a fairyland.

Explain without the patronising comments.

Captain Stern
25-10-2007, 01:34
Ahh sorry, man. Was just stressing my previous point.

40k did use to be bleak though (and always had been).

Nazguire
25-10-2007, 01:40
Ahh sorry, man. Was just stressing my previous point.

40k did use to be bleak though (and always had been).

That's cool :p

I know that 40k is meant to be a bleak universe with no real hope for anyone. Even in the golden age of the galaxy (at least for the Imperium, the Great Crusade) it has its moments of extreme prejudice and brutality (Laer campaign, Megarachnid campaign, Interex campaign etc)

Was just saying that in today's terms, wiping out a civilisation because you don't get on with them is something utterly terrible and incomprehensible compared to the Imperiums point of view. Which is survival through whatever means necessary.

Captain Stern
25-10-2007, 01:44
Was just saying that in today's terms, wiping out a civilisation because you don't get on with them is something utterly terrible and incomprehensible compared to the Imperiums point of view. Which is survival through whatever means necessary.


I don't think that was the Emperor's intention though. Like you said, it's all about survival.

If we don't exterminate them now while we're strong and they're weak then they'll exterminate us later when we're weak and they're strong. But if they let us live we might create (i want to be predictable and say Chuck Norris, but I won't) The Emperor and we'd end up wiping them out. It's a horrifying universe. The 40k universe is ultimately horrifying.

EDIT/ UPDATE

It is utterly horrifying, of course. In our future it might be the Kurgaleks in the Imperium's place and us in the place of the crap johnny one planet race.

Nazguire
25-10-2007, 01:48
I don't think that was the Emperor's intention though. Like you said, it's all about survival.

If we don't exterminate them now while we're strong and they're weak then they'll exterminate us later when we're weak and they're strong.

And when you're a xenophobe like the Emperor and the Imperium that sees all alien races as a threat or potential threat, then whatever means necessary to negate that threat is entirely acceptable. Whether it be containment (such as only fighting back the aliens) or a complete holocaust (Laer campaign/Megarachnid campaign)

Which relates back to your point of while we're strong and they're weak, we'll kill them while we can.

EDIT
Yeah which is also what I'm going at. There are entirely different set of morals and beliefs in 'what must be done' then today. If say, Country A decided to obliterate (no survivors, kill all) the people of Country B today because someone from A went to B and was murdered (such as the Megarachnid campaign) then it would be pretty much guaranteed that there would be international outrage and probably complete destruction of Country A.

While in the Imperium, heh heh, it's all hailed as a heroic victory

Brother Thuemoose
25-10-2007, 01:59
I don't think that was the Emperor's intention though. Like you said, it's all about survival.

If we don't exterminate them now while we're strong and they're weak then they'll exterminate us later when we're weak and they're strong. But if they let us live we might create (i want to be predictable and say Chuck Norris, but I won't) The Emperor and we'd end up wiping them out. It's a horrifying universe. The 40k universe is ultimately horrifying.

I agree with this. The Emperor didn't seem to be just "Kill all aliens". It seemed more "Kill the aliens enslaving humans, or the ones that pose a threat to the Imperium". After all, the idea of making the Laer a protectorate came up before Fulgrim wiped them out. The Emperor seemed to be more "Humanity First, then the other guys" rather than simply xenophobic. Of course, it wouldn't be hard to misinterpret this.

Captain Stern
25-10-2007, 02:08
I'm just arguing that The Emperor believes in a 'them or us' philosophy' based on knowledge and insight beyond what's available to us, and most of those who inhabit the 40k universe.

An alien race may exist in harmony alongside a segment of humanity for 10-100,000 years or more. But if The Emperor see's that this partnership may come to an end due to some factor, and see's the harm that may come to humanity (who is his charge) from this and has seen this happen over and over again with other species, not just his own, and identifies genocide as the only solution that works, then does this make him a xenophobe?

Captain Stern
25-10-2007, 02:22
EDIT
Yeah which is also what I'm going at. There are entirely different set of morals and beliefs in 'what must be done' then today. If say, Country A decided to obliterate (no survivors, kill all) the people of Country B today because someone from A went to B and was murdered (such as the Megarachnid campaign) then it would be pretty much guaranteed that there would be international outrage and probably complete destruction of Country A.

While in the Imperium, heh heh, it's all hailed as a heroic victory

During the Great Crusade what the general populace thought was irrelevant. They were ignorant. The Great Crusade was an environment where the Emperor, and his primarchs, could pretty much get away with what they wanted. This was neccessary because... "you have to get your hands dirty to get something done properly". If every single kill count and casualty was reported to the general population the crusade wouldn't have got very far.

EDIT/ UPDATE

The moral I think the Emperor was always adhering to was the survival of humanity, with all that entails and promises.

Noserenda
25-10-2007, 03:40
Its not Xenophobia if they really are out to get you :angel:

Think about it, all the Major Alien races in 40k (And I suspect all the minor ones) really would prefer all the humans to be dead, get em first i say!

Nazguire
25-10-2007, 03:58
identifies genocide as the only solution that works, then does this make him a xenophobe?

No it makes him a murderer :p

Ktotwf
25-10-2007, 04:13
The Emperor is a Xenocide, whose ultimate goal was the extermination of all Xenos and a completely human galaxy forever and ever.

No compromises, no "Hey, if you guys leave us alone, we can chill". It was either death now, death later, or death in between if you were an alien.

Nazguire
25-10-2007, 04:28
The Emperor is a Xenocide, whose ultimate goal was the extermination of all Xenos and a completely human galaxy forever and ever.

No compromises, no "Hey, if you guys leave us alone, we can chill". It was either death now, death later, or death in between if you were an alien.

Which I thought was quite clear from all the IA, Horus Heresy books, Horus Heresy art books and subsequently (now I think about it) all Imperial background sources.

There wasn't a compromise of 'Live and Let Live' it was dead now or dead later but certainly not leave each other alone. Look at Fulgrim and the Emperor's Children, wiped out the Laer because they had similar (in theory) ideals to Humanity. Or the Sons of Horus.

Reading Horus Rising and you are told that the Emperor's mission to the Astartes was to rid the galaxy of the alien. In fact that's throughout all the HH books.

Brother Siccarius
25-10-2007, 04:52
That's cool :p

I know that 40k is meant to be a bleak universe with no real hope for anyone. Even in the golden age of the galaxy (at least for the Imperium, the Great Crusade) it has its moments of extreme prejudice and brutality (Laer campaign, Megarachnid campaign, Interex campaign etc)

Was just saying that in today's terms, wiping out a civilisation because you don't get on with them is something utterly terrible and incomprehensible compared to the Imperiums point of view. Which is survival through whatever means necessary.

Actually, the Interex campaign was caused by Erebus stealing weapons from the Interex and slaughtering dozens of them while Horus was meeting and negotiating with them. They really had no plan at all to destroy them, and in the end, they fought them to a standstill, and still didn't defeat the Interex.

Considering how they were so built against chaos and open to all races that were against it, I wouldn't be surprised if the Emperor would've allowed them to live. They're just too good of an asset. Would have been an even greater asset fighting Horus when he rebelled, if only the few people who knew the truth of that group hadn't died on Istvaan or turned traitor much before meeting them.

The Laer posed a genuine threat to humanity on the other hand, despite feeling provoked by the Imperium. The Megarachnid was an honor thing.

Nazguire
25-10-2007, 04:59
Actually, the Interex campaign was caused by Erebus stealing weapons from the Interex and slaughtering dozens of them while Horus was meeting and negotiating with them. They really had no plan at all to destroy them, and in the end, they fought them to a standstill, and still didn't defeat the Interex.

Considering how they were so built against chaos and open to all races that were against it, I wouldn't be surprised if the Emperor would've allowed them to live. They're just too good of an asset. Would have been an even greater asset fighting Horus when he rebelled, if only the few people who knew the truth of that group hadn't died on Istvaan or turned traitor much before meeting them.

The Laer posed a genuine threat to humanity on the other hand, despite feeling provoked by the Imperium. The Megarachnid was an honor thing.

They didn't fight them to a standstill. They fought and broke out of the system. Yes Erebus (naughty Erebus) caused it. Who thinks that a human faction that frequently consorts with aliens as tricksy as the Eldar, and who instead of going with the Emperor's plan of Chaos ignorance, openly preach it's existence and how important it is to deny it, would be allowed to exist?

The Diasporex are an example of those what happens to races like the Interex that don't wish to become xenophobic like the Imperium. Annihilation then slavery on a penal colony.

The way I read the conclusion to the Interex incident at the end of Horus Rising, it seemst that they were destroyed as Loken describes how eventually an expedition would be drawn up against them.

Brusilov
25-10-2007, 08:11
I say the Imperium would not be so different from what it is in the mainstream 40k universe :

1) The Imperial Truth vs the Imperial Faith: that's a big bone of contention however. Which one will prevail in the end. The Emperor would favour the first but that would not prevent billions from worshipping him. The HH books have already proven that the followers of the Lectitio Divinatus can have powers akin to the Saints of the mainstream Imperium.
All in all, I believe the Imperial Faith would win in the end, if simply because it provides a more efficient way of warding off Chaos influence than the Imperial Truth

2) The Inquisition: still around and kick much ass. The Emperor would probably have ordered its creation anyway, to hunt down the traitors hiding in the midst of his followers

3) the breaking down of the Legions and the reorganisation of the Imperial Army: it would still have happened too. The Legions had proven too dangerous a structure to maintain, they would be disbanded anyway. Same thing goes for the Imperial Army. The causes of the restructuration of these organisations still stand even in this universe

4) the oversized Administratum: it was already happening at the time of the Great Crusade (the Council of Terra). It may be better organised, faster and whatnot but it'd still be there

5) The Terra Webway Portal: the Emperor would be stuck on the Golden Throne as long as he could not beat back the daemons massing on the other side. IMHO that would be the main focus of his efforts. It is not impossible than in 10,000 years he would have managed the feat of mastering the Webway.
This would spell the final doom of the Eldar, but herald a new age for the Imperium : faster, more reliable, more flexible interstellar transport. This is, if it did happen, the most important change between the two Imperiums. And it would have far reaching consequences.

6) the Xenos: I won't go into too much detail here, just to say that I believe the Emperor would continue the campaigns of extermination already underway during the Great Crusade.

brettz123
25-10-2007, 15:45
The way I read the conclusion to the Interex incident at the end of Horus Rising, it seemst that they were destroyed as Loken describes how eventually an expedition would be drawn up against them.

I would very much disagree with that interpretation. They probably would have been destroyed but with the break out of the Horus Heresy it doesnt seem likely that the Imperium would have had the time or later the resources to destroy a group that was able to fight fairly well against real space marines and a primarch as well as contain the megaarachnids.

It would be really cool to find out more about the Interex but I doubt they were destroyed.


I say the Imperium would not be so different from what it is in the mainstream 40k universe :

1) The Imperial Truth vs the Imperial Faith: that's a big bone of contention however. Which one will prevail in the end. The Emperor would favour the first but that would not prevent billions from worshipping him. The HH books have already proven that the followers of the Lectitio Divinatus can have powers akin to the Saints of the mainstream Imperium.
All in all, I believe the Imperial Faith would win in the end, if simply because it provides a more efficient way of warding off Chaos influence than the Imperial Truth


3) the breaking down of the Legions and the reorganisation of the Imperial Army: it would still have happened too. The Legions had proven too dangerous a structure to maintain, they would be disbanded anyway. Same thing goes for the Imperial Army. The causes of the restructuration of these organisations still stand even in this universe

5) The Terra Webway Portal: the Emperor would be stuck on the Golden Throne as long as he could not beat back the daemons massing on the other side. IMHO that would be the main focus of his efforts. It is not impossible than in 10,000 years he would have managed the feat of mastering the Webway.
This would spell the final doom of the Eldar, but herald a new age for the Imperium : faster, more reliable, more flexible interstellar transport. This is, if it did happen, the most important change between the two Imperiums. And it would have far reaching consequences.

6) the Xenos: I won't go into too much detail here, just to say that I believe the Emperor would continue the campaigns of extermination already underway during the Great Crusade.

1) The emperor could deny his own divinity while admitting to the nature of chaos. Really just all speculation though.

3) Not sure this still would have happened

5) It is almost assured that he would have mastered the webway portals. Isn't that one of the reasons chaos struck when it did? The emperor was close to mastering the webways?

6) I would assume this is correct.

Ktotwf
25-10-2007, 15:48
The Emperor would not feel beholden to the Space Marines. They were his tools for conquest - they were his plastic toy soldiers.

Once he felt they were a threat to his power he would have broken them down.

brettz123
25-10-2007, 15:53
The Emperor would not feel beholden to the Space Marines. They were his tools for conquest - they were his plastic toy soldiers.

Once he felt they were a threat to his power he would have broken them down.

Maybe maybe not. They are his 'sons'. Plus would he feel that the remaining loyal marines were a threat? I think it is plausible that he might even have felt the need for more space marines and perhaps more primarchs. Maybe even primarch mark II.

Rockerfella
25-10-2007, 16:25
Why? The only difference between the Imperium's policy vis-a-vis Xenos and the Emperor's policy is that in the Emperor's time they were much more efficient at exterminating the filthy buggers.

I have ABSOLUTELY NO idea where this idea that the Emperor was somehow more tolerant towards aliens than the Imperium is now comes from.

Well, firstly, the whole ideology of the Imperium pre heresy was more tolerant than its currrent ideology.

Marines actually thought, well, some of them did. Now they're just brainwashed killing machines with zero sense of identity. Pre heresy, they weren't like that. The books prove it.

Also, the Primarchs were tolerant of other human civilisations. Fulgrim actually sat down and had TEA AND CUCUMBER SANDWICHES with Eldrad Ulthran. How is that not tolerance? Lets be honest, it wouldn't happen today. That meeting would have simply never happened.

Thats where the idea comes from. But let me remind you Ktotwf, that is is merely an idea. I'm allowed to voice it. And, personally, I believe it too.

Ktotwf
25-10-2007, 16:35
Well, firstly, the whole ideology of the Imperium pre heresy was more tolerant than its currrent ideology.

I don't see any difference. There are like 3 or 4 examples already in the HH series of alien species destroyed by the Astartes. Just exterminating them mercilessly.


Marines actually thought, well, some of them did. Now they're just brainwashed killing machines with zero sense of identity. Pre heresy, they weren't like that. The books prove it.

Have you ever read the Ragnar Blackmane novels? Ragnar is the most interesting and thoughtful Space Marine ever written about, and he certainly exists Post-Heresy.

It is just a difference in writing style, IMHO, I think you are reading into things that aren't there.


Also, the Primarchs were tolerant of other human civilisations. Fulgrim actually sat down and had TEA AND CUCUMBER SANDWICHES with Eldrad Ulthran. How is that not tolerance? Lets be honest, it wouldn't happen today. That meeting would have simply never happened.

Yeah, which I am sure was more about extracting useful info or making contacts (i.e. using the alien for the benefit of the Imperium) than it was to make nicey nice with the Xenos.

Plus, there is an example in the C.S. Goto BL novels of an Imperial Inquisitor making a long term pact with an Eldar leader (possibly Eldrad), so to assume that it would NEVER happen is going to far. Especially considering that the Imperium has established something of a modus vivendi with the Tau


Thats where the idea comes from. But let me remind you Ktotwf, that is is merely an idea. I'm allowed to voice it. And, personally, I believe it too.

Just because you have the right to have an opinion doesn't mean you have the right to have it free from criticism.

Rockerfella
25-10-2007, 17:34
I don't see any difference. There are like 3 or 4 examples already in the HH series of alien species destroyed by the Astartes. Just exterminating them mercilessly. Some species, yeah. they tended to be mindless crazed weirdo's to be fair. Like the back water bully they are, the Imperium pick on Xeno's 'smaller' than they are. The Xeno's that can chew back, are still around, I think the Emperor understood this much. ;)



Have you ever read the Ragnar Blackmane novels? Ragnar is the most interesting and thoughtful Space Marine ever written about, and he certainly exists Post-Heresy. Nope, not read it. Although, i'm sure we'd disagree on this point, as we seem to disagree on everything else. Already, I'm not happy about the way you've already claimed that Blackmane is, without doubt or question, the most interesting space marine character of all time. I'd have to read it to find out for myself, of course.


It is just a difference in writing style, IMHO, I think you are reading into things that aren't there. Really? In what way Ktotwf?




Yeah, which I am sure was more about extracting useful info or making contacts (i.e. using the alien for the benefit of the Imperium) than it was to make nicey nice with the Xenos. But, you would say that wouldn't you.:rolleyes: I'm sure there was an element of 'using the alien', but if Fulgrim had been able to do such a thing i'm sure he would. Remember, it was fulgrims ignorance that caused the military action between Eldrad and himself. I personally think that Fulgrim had questions that the Eldar could provide answers to. In todays political climate, I don't believe it would have gotten that far. I don't think Fulgrim went to that particular meeting with the hidden agenda of trying to manipulate Eldrad. I mean, c'mon, Eldrads a dick, it wouldn't happen. ;)


Plus, there is an example in the C.S. Goto BL novels Ahhh, CS Goto, that last bastion and fountain of all knowledge. *gips* Please....


of an Imperial Inquisitor making a long term pact with an Eldar leader (possibly Eldrad), so to assume that it would NEVER happen is going to far. Especially considering that the Imperium has established something of a modus vivendi with the Tau Yeah. If i remember rightly, it was a plot where Eldrad was a joint conspirator with Slaanesh, and as a team they tried to take the marines souls? Yes, thats right, Eldrad worked with Slaanesh... I know he's a 'dick', but please. Someone who writes such ditritus dosen't get any credit from me i'm afraid. Possibly the worst author, other than myself, to ever contribute to literature. If you can call it that.


Just because you have the right to have an opinion doesn't mean you have the right to have it free from criticism.

Well, opinions differ. I personally don't see ANY need to criticise someones opinion. I mean, thats a tad daft to me. Disagree with it sure, by all means disagree with it, but don't criticise it. I don't want some analysis and evaluation, some critique of my opinions. Firstly, i'm not published, but secondly, its just bad form old chap. ;)

brettz123
25-10-2007, 19:08
Some species, yeah. they tended to be mindless crazed weirdo's to be fair. Like the back water bully they are, the Imperium pick on Xeno's 'smaller' than they are. The Xeno's that can chew back, are still around, I think the Emperor understood this much. ;)


Nope, not read it. Although, i'm sure we'd disagree on this point, as we seem to disagree on everything else. Already, I'm not happy about the way you've already claimed that Blackmane is, without doubt or question, the most interesting space marine character of all time. I'd have to read it to find out for myself, of course.

Really? In what way Ktotwf?



But, you would say that wouldn't you.:rolleyes: I'm sure there was an element of 'using the alien', but if Fulgrim had been able to do such a thing i'm sure he would. Remember, it was fulgrims ignorance that caused the military action between Eldrad and himself. I personally think that Fulgrim had questions that the Eldar could provide answers to. In todays political climate, I don't believe it would have gotten that far. I don't think Fulgrim went to that particular meeting with the hidden agenda of trying to manipulate Eldrad. I mean, c'mon, Eldrads a dick, it wouldn't happen. ;)

Ahhh, CS Goto, that last bastion and fountain of all knowledge. *gips* Please....

Yeah. If i remember rightly, it was a plot where Eldrad was a joint conspirator with Slaanesh, and as a team they tried to take the marines souls? Yes, thats right, Eldrad worked with Slaanesh... I know he's a 'dick', but please. Someone who writes such ditritus dosen't get any credit from me i'm afraid. Possibly the worst author, other than myself, to ever contribute to literature. If you can call it that.



Well, opinions differ. I personally don't see ANY need to criticise someones opinion. I mean, thats a tad daft to me. Disagree with it sure, by all means disagree with it, but don't criticise it. I don't want some analysis and evaluation, some critique of my opinions. Firstly, i'm not published, but secondly, its just bad form old chap. ;)

Well having read all of the BL novels I would have to disagree with you too. The overall policy of the empire pre and post heresy was essentially xenocide but not always. Seems to be decided on an individual basis as need at the time though both then and now. So I see pre heresy Imperial society as more thoughtful in general but marines still seem to be thoughtful or unthoughtful on an individual by individual basis. Just read the Ultramarine books.

And actually Ragnar is one of the more fleshed and thoughtful characters in the fluff. Now I don't know if he is the most as that is a matter of opinion but certainly a dynamic character.

jfrazell
25-10-2007, 20:00
Not much.

The Imperial army would still have speeders and landraiders however, which remains ultimate cool.

*they'd still be xenophobic and persecutorial (crusades pretty much wacked anything not stronger than them, and the SOB's and blackship were already in existence-citing Eisenstein)

*they're still beset by Orks, Nids, and Necrons

*the Emperor's favorite food, pizza topped with Canadian bacon and pineapple, would be celebrated for its greatness throughout the imperium, instead of relegated to holy days only.

stormblade
25-10-2007, 20:04
In some Inq. article I read that monodominant ideology wasn't popular in Imperium until 36M I think.

(Can't quote though)

Brusilov
25-10-2007, 20:53
The matter of the Emperor's divinity is a topic which I love talking about (especially since I haven't had the chance to do so since I read the HH books).

Anyway, the issue of whether the Emperor could impose the Imperial Truth in the end is very much in question. While the Lectitio Divinatus was very much a limited group during the Great Crusade, it grew exponentially, even with the Iterators preaching the good word of the Imperial Truth.

The Emperor's glorious victory over Horus would be proof enough of his divine status. After all he would have vanquished a very powerful being back by the four major Chaos powers. If that does not prove the Emperor is a god-like being...
In the end, we might have seen a fusion of the two, with an Ecclesiarchy more tolerant toward technology, rationality and other such scientific endeavours.
It has been mentioned before, but cannot be stressed enough. The main point of the idea mentioned by the original poster would be an Imperium in which obscurantism has no place, where the ununderstood rituals of the Mechanicus would not exist.
It would also probably lead to a more open stance on Chaos (although it might not). As the Emperor realises his greatness weakness was to suppress knowledge of Chaos (I am confused as to whether he is even aware of its existence, it just seems he would not). The Imperium might end up looking a lot more like the Interex and less like the gothic and dark Imperium we all know and love.

On the breaking of the Legions, what good reason the Emperor would have to maintain structures whose existence have threatened everything he worked so hard to create and protect? The Space Marines have proven their efficiency in their Chapter form for ten millennia. On the other hand, maintaining the Legion would ensure that any further rebellion from the Space Marines could end up having the same dire consequences as the HH had.

On the matter of the Webway, it is indeed possible the Emperor was coming very close to mastering it. However even with the Webway, humanity would not be free of the predations of Chaos. As mentioned in my sig (*cough*), what makes humans tasty, or any sentient life for that matter, is the emotions we feel, which coalesce (sp?) in the warp to create entities known as the Chaos Gods.
It would protect travelers from the dangers of the Warp but would not change much in the short term. More dangerous to Chaos would be devising a way of preventing human emotions from strengthening the Dark Gods. The Emperor did not seem close to this (unless he intended to soul bind every human in the galaxy).
As to why Chaos chose to attack when it did, it probably saw an opportunity. If the Imperium finished the Great Crusade, it would be too strong and unified to attack from the outside, better destroy from the inside while it was still in its infancy.

On the matter of the Monodominant phisolophy, it does not mean that because it was not conceptualised until M36 that it was not the Imperium's standard policy for millennia beforehand.

Brother Siccarius
26-10-2007, 02:05
I don't see any difference. There are like 3 or 4 examples already in the HH series of alien species destroyed by the Astartes. Just exterminating them mercilessly.


Yes, Alien species that were all said to have threatened humanity first, and there's plenty of examples of Primarchs and Warmasters having conversations with Xenos in a nice friendly method instead of jumping across the table to kill eachother.



Have you ever read the Ragnar Blackmane novels? Ragnar is the most interesting and thoughtful Space Marine ever written about, and he certainly exists Post-Heresy.
Hah, while I loved the Blackmane novels, he's far from a free-thinker. They even talk about the fact that he was brainwashed into his thinking in the first book. That machine that pumped information into his head also pumped in a healthy love of the emperor and respect of those above him above everything, even his own safety or well-being.


It is just a difference in writing style, IMHO, I think you are reading into things that aren't there.

How is it "just a difference in writing style" if it's being written by many different authors and conducted by the guy who writes the Fluff?



Yeah, which I am sure was more about extracting useful info or making contacts (i.e. using the alien for the benefit of the Imperium) than it was to make nicey nice with the Xenos.
Except that doesn't explain the treaty negotiations entered into with Horus and the Interex before they even began fighting. Kinda makes it seem like they were open to the nicey nice with Xenos.


Plus, there is an example in the C.S. Goto BL novels of an Imperial Inquisitor making a long term pact with an Eldar leader (possibly Eldrad), so to assume that it would NEVER happen is going to far.
The less said about C.S. Goto the better, and that's not just because I don't like his writings. Also because he's not well liked among a good amount of people for taking a bit of a stretch on his fluff.

Yes, some people will make treaties with Xenos, if we didn't then the Ordo Xeno codex would be an amazingly boring book with only staunch purists and no renegades. Is it smiled upon, no, and you often end up on the wrong side of a Bolt pistol if you can't overwhelmingly prove that it was for the good of the Imperium, and sometimes even if you can.

Especially considering that the Imperium has established something of a modus vivendi with the Tau

They had a pact of non-agression with the Tau after a failed Imperial crusade, the Tau broke it and now it's very likely that there's plenty of fighting between the Imperium and the Tau. I believe it was even detailed in the last Tau codex under the 3rd sphere expansion.

Ktotwf
26-10-2007, 02:11
Yes, Alien species that were all said to have threatened humanity first, and there's plenty of examples of Primarchs and Warmasters having conversations with Xenos in a nice friendly method instead of jumping across the table to kill eachother.

What examples? Other than the Fulgrim one?

There seems to be this one wishful thinking that somehow the original Imperium was awesome and tolerant, and the later Imperium was bad. Essentially, these people want the Imperium to be some sort of Hippie Fun land and for the Emperor to be some wise tolerant old Grandfather.

Both of them are the same - and negotiating with the Xenos was sometimes necessary. Although the Imperium always preaches extermination, it will play Realpolitik and ally with the aliens when it is necessary to do so.



Hah, while I loved the Blackmane novels, he's far from a free-thinker. They even talk about the fact that he was brainwashed into his thinking in the first book. That machine that pumped information into his head also pumped in a healthy love of the emperor and respect of those above him above everything, even his own safety or well-being.

He often disagrees with the missions he is sent on, and he often wonders why he has to do things.

I am not saying he is some Freedom loving ****, just that he is not a simple instrument of death that Rockerfella was implying existed in the new fluff. He has a personality.


How is it "just a difference in writing style" if it's being written by many different authors and conducted by the guy who writes the Fluff?

What do you mean?


Except that doesn't explain the treaty negotiations entered into with Horus and the Interex before they even began fighting. Kinda makes it seem like they were open to the nicey nice with Xenos.

Ummm...Interex were Humans. And the reason that the Imperium refused to tolerate the Interex was because they had dealings with aliens.


The less said about C.S. Goto the better, and that's not just because I don't like his writings. Also because he's not well liked among a good amount of people for taking a bit of a stretch on his fluff.

Its official whether you like it or not.



They had a pact of non-agression with the Tau after a failed Imperial crusade, the Tau broke it and now it's very likely that there's plenty of fighting between the Imperium and the Tau. I believe it was even detailed in the last Tau codex under the 3rd sphere expansion.

And?

Brother Siccarius
26-10-2007, 02:40
What examples? Other than the Fulgrim one?


Horus Rising: Horus, Interex, yeah.



What do you mean?

To say it's "just a difference of writing style" for multiple writers being directly backed by the guy who's job it is to safeguard the background to write it differently than those who are writing on the other side of the Horus Heresy is asinine. If it were just one writer, then yes, it would be a difference in writing stlye, but when it's multiple writers who are taking their cues from the guy who holds the background it's not "just a difference in writing styles" it's pretty good evidence that the marines pre-heresy thought a lot different than those post-heresy.


Ummm...Interex were Humans. And the reason that the Imperium refused to tolerate the Interex was because they had dealings with aliens.

The Interex were a coalition of human and alien settlements, not just humans, the group wasn't even started by humans. The Imperium didn't refuse to tolerate the Interex at all. They were being extremely tolerant and even accepting of them, with them and not attacking or destroying their Empire and entering into negotiations of an alliance with them.

They only went to war with them after Erebus stole the anathema and slaughtered a bunch of them. By the time that they had a chance to say otherwise the Interex thought Horus and his bunch were cursed with chaos. Horus eventually left the Interex alone after a long time and didn't bother destroying them. He even regretted the war with them, and the agression. He certainly wasn't standing on a pedestal telling his men to "kill the xenos loving scum". There was no refusal of tolerance, there was open tolerance to them and their coalition until it was ruined by one bad egg.

Ktotwf
26-10-2007, 03:05
Horus Rising: Horus, Interex, yeah.

So, two examples is loads of examples? I don't even find the later example that convincing, as I don't remember the Interex being anything other than a human led technological civilization.



To say it's "just a difference of writing style" for multiple writers being directly backed by the guy who's job it is to safeguard the background to write it differently than those who are writing on the other side of the Horus Heresy is asinine. If it were just one writer, then yes, it would be a difference in writing stlye, but when it's multiple writers who are taking their cues from the guy who holds the background it's not "just a difference in writing styles" it's pretty good evidence that the marines pre-heresy thought a lot different than those post-heresy.

First of all, its not "asinine." If you can't debate like a civilized human being I suggest you take a long walk off a short pier.

There is SIGNIFICANT differences in between the different styles of writing of each author. Hell, Dan Abnett pretty much makes crap up as he goes along.

If your argument was successful, then why does everyone hate C.S. Goto? He is only writing based on the directives of the fluff guide correct?

Your argument is hideously weak.




The Interex were a coalition of human and alien settlements, not just humans, the group wasn't even started by humans. The Imperium didn't refuse to tolerate the Interex at all. They were being extremely tolerant and even accepting of them, with them and not attacking or destroying their Empire and entering into negotiations of an alliance with them.


If you can get a source on this, then I will accept it. My impression was that the Interex was a human empire that had tolerant contact with aliens, not a civilization that was a mix between aliens and humans.

And, besides, what are you trying to argue here? That the Imperium tolerated aliens?

brettz123
26-10-2007, 03:58
If you can get a source on this, then I will accept it. My impression was that the Interex was a human empire that had tolerant contact with aliens, not a civilization that was a mix between aliens and humans.

And, besides, what are you trying to argue here? That the Imperium tolerated aliens?

From what I remember of Horus Rising the aliens and humans of the interex had the same standing. I also believe the book did say the aliens were actually the original founders of the interex. But either way it was absolutely a mixed civilization. Hard to believe you read the book and missed that part :)

brettz123
26-10-2007, 04:00
[QUOTE=Ktotwf;2036688]
If your argument was successful, then why does everyone hate C.S. Goto? He is only writing based on the directives of the fluff guide correct?
[QUOTE]

People hate cs goto because his books are poorly written and getting through 400 pages of it makes you want to puke all over yourself.

jfrazell
26-10-2007, 11:44
Based on the HH novels only

Races or human forces allied with xenos that were immediately attacked
(HH through Fulgrim)

*megarachnids
*eldar
*planet hopping aliens (Eisenstein, forget their name)
*Laer
*Diasporex

Races they met shortly before trying to kill them
*Eldar
*interrex

Note there is no successful note I am aware of wherein xenos are permitted to live in a treaty type situation. The Laer were only going to be left alone because the back office guys did a simple cost/benefit analysis and found the costs of conquering them to be much too high, which turned out to be the case.

Also note its not much different for the human civilizations they come across. Join us or die is the order of the day. Black ships are in existence.

So pretty much nothing different then 40K.

Brother Siccarius
27-10-2007, 06:03
Based on the HH novels only

Races or human forces allied with xenos that were immediately attacked
(HH through Fulgrim)

*megarachnids
*eldar
*planet hopping aliens (Eisenstein, forget their name)
*Laer
*Diasporex

Races they met shortly before trying to kill them
*Eldar
*interrex

Note there is no successful note I am aware of wherein xenos are permitted to live in a treaty type situation. The Laer were only going to be left alone because the back office guys did a simple cost/benefit analysis and found the costs of conquering them to be much too high, which turned out to be the case.

I love how you use the Eldar twice in two different categories.

Actually, upon looking at the last page of the first chapter in Fulgrim (pg 28) you see that the Imperium actually had plans to make the Laer a protectorate, but Fulgrim vetoed it out of pride (He thought the idea of another race being more advanced as preposterous). They even go so far as to describe them as "A culture of some sophistication". In the second chapter when they're planning the attack, you see several people bring it up again that they should enter into negotiations and make them a protectorate of the Imperium instead of fighting them. They even bring up the idea of negotiating with them after the Laer have already begun killing people! This wasn't even just a few people on the scene offering the option either, it was the Council of Terra.

The Megarachnids were openly hostile to the Imperium immediately, as could be said of the other "kill on sight species". The Imperium didn't immediately see them and open fire on them. They were attacked first, considered the option of killing them versus making a treaty with them, and then decided through various means to kill them.

It certainly didn't seem as mind-blowing an option for people to produce, for humans to ally with Xenos, as we see it now. Certainly shows some difference in opinion of Xenos from then and now.


So, two examples is loads of examples? I don't even find the later example that convincing, as I don't remember the Interex being anything other than a human led technological civilization.

Who ever said loads of examples were needed at all. All I have to do is poke two or three holes in you're over-arching generalized theories and they sink.


First of all, its not "asinine." If you can't debate like a civilized human being I suggest you take a long walk off a short pier.

Perhaps you misunderstood that word or my use of it. It means that your theory of a difference of writing style being the only reason that Space Marines are depicted differently between Post and Pre-Heresy lacks intelligence. Considering that each of these writers write books based in the post-heresy universe as well as their works in the HH novels, and each of these writers are writing Space Marines in a different way in the HH novels than they write them in their post-heresy novels shows quite a bit that they and the people behind the project (Namely GW) think that the Space marines actually do think and act differently than their post-heresy counterparts.


There is SIGNIFICANT differences in between the different styles of writing of each author. Hell, Dan Abnett pretty much makes crap up as he goes along.

It was good enough "crap" for BL and GW to approve the publication of it. I throw GW in there as accepting of his writing because he was the original writer for BL (Having the honor of having the first book to be originally published by BL, previously they were re-prints of previously published books) and because they've added a good amount of his input from the Gaunts Ghosts novels into the fluff.

He may make crap up as it goes along, but it's GW approved crap.


If your argument was successful, then why does everyone hate C.S. Goto? He is only writing based on the directives of the fluff guide correct?

Your argument is hideously weak.


Woah now, let's not continue to put words in my mouth. I never said the word "Everyone", that's a gross over generalization I try to avoid now-a-days. I said "Many people" or "A good amount" but only in relation to specific places where he, as a rule, is often booed when mentioned.




If you can get a source on this, then I will accept it. My impression was that the Interex was a human empire that had tolerant contact with aliens, not a civilization that was a mix between aliens and humans.

And, besides, what are you trying to argue here? That the Imperium tolerated aliens?
The source is called Horus Rising, I even mentioned it before and you talked about my mentioning it in the exact same post you wrote the above in. The proof is in the pudding, or the Anathema to be precise. The Anathema was a weapon used by the Laer that were part of the interex, they even mention asking the Laer about how it was made, to which they stated that it's a cursed weapon I believe.

Ktotwf
27-10-2007, 06:31
Who ever said loads of examples were needed at all. All I have to do is poke two or three holes in you're over-arching generalized theories and they sink.

"and there's plenty of examples of Primarchs and Warmasters having conversations with Xenos in a nice friendly method instead of jumping across the table to kill eachother."

I GUESS its totally cool to make crap up and not be able to back it up.

The fact is, I could point out more examples of the Imperium set in the 41st milennium tolerating Xenos than you can from the HH series. In order for your argument to be AT ALL convincing, you would have to point out COUNTLESS examples, and not a few anecdotal points. Therefore, your argument stinks.



Perhaps you misunderstood that word or my use of it. It means that your theory of a difference of writing style being the only reason that Space Marines are depicted differently between Post and Pre-Heresy lacks intelligence.

No I understand your choice of words perfectly. I just thought it was tactless and infantile coming from someone like you.


Considering that each of these writers write books based in the post-heresy universe as well as their works in the HH novels, and each of these writers are writing Space Marines in a different way in the HH novels than they write them in their post-heresy novels shows quite a bit that they and the people behind the project (Namely GW) think that the Space marines actually do think and act differently than their post-heresy counterparts.

Here is the thing: I DON'T FEEL there is a difference. Its a matter of opinion. To use opinion as fact is ridiculous. Garviel Loken is no more human to me (in fact less so) than Ragnar Blackmane, or the Ultramarine character from the Fire Warrior novelization.

You just made a biased statement and kept rolling with it, which is ridiculous and shows lack of any intellectual seriousness.

Brother Siccarius
27-10-2007, 23:22
"and there's plenty of examples of Primarchs and Warmasters having conversations with Xenos in a nice friendly method instead of jumping across the table to kill eachother."

I GUESS its totally cool to make crap up and not be able to back it up.

The fact is, I could point out more examples of the Imperium set in the 41st milennium tolerating Xenos than you can from the HH series. In order for your argument to be AT ALL convincing, you would have to point out COUNTLESS examples, and not a few anecdotal points. Therefore, your argument stinks.

I can go on about how we're simply arguing about words and semantics of my argument now, but that'd likely come to bite me. So I'll continue. Plenty is not "A lot", "Tons" or "Dozens". It is a non-number that indicates I have enough to satisfy my own methods of proving my point. Secondly, you can certainly provide points that show individuals within the Imperium, or people of some Imperial authority, showing a tolerance of Xenos.

However, I can provide examples and evidence of the rulers of the Imperium at the time before the heresy showing not only tolerance, but a willingness to add the Xenos race to the Imperium in some official fashion (such as becoming a protectorate). Namely Horus, the Warmaster, and officials of the Adimistratum going to the interex (Who were a mixed Xenos and Human group) to negotiate a treaty of peace between the two, as shown in Horus Rising. Then you see it again in Fulgrim with the Council of Terra itself wishing to add the xenos culture known as the Laer to the Imperium as a protectorate. The most the leaders of the Imperium have done in regards to ceasing hostilities with Xenos (at least publicly or on a long-term scale) post-Heresy is to form a formal treaty with the Tau Empire in a pact of non-agression or ceasefire after a crusade sent against them.


No I understand your choice of words perfectly. I just thought it was tactless and infantile coming from someone like you.

Please, no flames. I didn't insult you, I stated that your theory had little to no intellectual merits, but that's no reason for character assassination.


Here is the thing: I DON'T FEEL there is a difference. Its a matter of opinion. To use opinion as fact is ridiculous. Garviel Loken is no more human to me (in fact less so) than Ragnar Blackmane, or the Ultramarine character from the Fire Warrior novelization.

You just made a biased statement and kept rolling with it, which is ridiculous and shows lack of any intellectual seriousness.

Multiple examples of the difference between post and pre-heresy marines exist, I presented them as evidence in my previous posts. Now, that would really be enough evidence to prove my point in any college level literary class (which is to say that it has enough intellectual seriousness to pass in any environment built around intellectual seriousness), in fact I've proved points in those classes with less basis and evidence than that which I've already presented. I've yet to see any real proof/evidence/examples leveled by your side of the conversation, which is odd as you're the one leveling the claim that mine is based solely on opinion.

It's not an opinion. If it were only a single book and it wasn't a large project backed by GW and their "Fluff Gurus" then it would be opinion. But I can draw from each of the HH books and their artbooks for evidence, which shows some over-arching reason for the marines being presented differently.

Ktotwf
27-10-2007, 23:33
However, I can provide examples and evidence of the rulers of the Imperium at the time before the heresy showing not only tolerance, but a willingness to add the Xenos race to the Imperium in some official fashion (such as becoming a protectorate). Namely Horus, the Warmaster, and officials of the Adimistratum going to the interex (Who were a mixed Xenos and Human group) to negotiate a treaty of peace between the two, as shown in Horus Rising. Then you see it again in Fulgrim with the Council of Terra itself wishing to add the xenos culture known as the Laer to the Imperium as a protectorate. The most the leaders of the Imperium have done in regards to ceasing hostilities with Xenos (at least publicly or on a long-term scale) post-Heresy is to form a formal treaty with the Tau Empire in a pact of non-agression or ceasefire after a crusade sent against them.

No. EVERY act of tolerance of the Xenos has ALWAYS been instigated by leaders of the Imperium for a short term goal. THAT is why there is no qualitative difference between the Xenos policy for the 41st and 31st milennium.

The Imperium fought alongside the Eldar against the Tyranids, the Imperium made a peace treaty with the Tau, numerous higher level Inquisitors work with aliens or use alien technologies, etc etc etc.

This is why your argument is not convincing, you are failing to account for the
fact that such incidences ALWAYS occur for the convenience of the larger Imperium, and they are always instigated by the higher ups who are free to be a little liberal with ideological policy.


Please, no flames. I didn't insult you, I stated that your theory had little to no intellectual merits, but that's no reason for character assassination.

You're pretty decent at this Rhetoric thing. You almost make me believe that you have actually said HALF of the stuff you claim to have. But you haven't, and no amount of talking and talking is going to change that.


Multiple examples of the difference between post and pre-heresy marines exist, I presented them as evidence in my previous posts. Now, that would really be enough evidence to prove my point in any college level literary class (which is to say that it has enough intellectual seriousness to pass in any environment built around intellectual seriousness), in fact I've proved points in those classes with less basis and evidence than that which I've already presented. I've yet to see any real proof/evidence/examples leveled by your side of the conversation, which is odd as you're the one leveling the claim that mine is based solely on opinion.

It's not an opinion. If it were only a single book and it wasn't a large project backed by GW and their "Fluff Gurus" then it would be opinion. But I can draw from each of the HH books and their artbooks for evidence, which shows some over-arching reason for the marines being presented differently.

No, what a bald faced lie. You produced NO examples of how the Space Marines in the HH were different at all. You just said they were, and then rolled with it.

Honestly, I couldn't care less about your "College literary class" and what standard of proof is necessary there.

You simply keep making claims that you can't back up, and then even more offensive than that you CLAIM to have presented proof that you haven't.

Make your case, or quit wasting my time.

Allarion
27-10-2007, 23:47
geeze you guys need to chill out

DantesInferno
28-10-2007, 00:23
No. EVERY act of tolerance of the Xenos has ALWAYS been instigated by leaders of the Imperium for a short term goal. THAT is why there is no qualitative difference between the Xenos policy for the 41st and 31st milennium.

The Imperium fought alongside the Eldar against the Tyranids, the Imperium made a peace treaty with the Tau, numerous higher level Inquisitors work with aliens or use alien technologies, etc etc etc.

This is why your argument is not convincing, you are failing to account for the
fact that such incidences ALWAYS occur for the convenience of the larger Imperium, and they are always instigated by the higher ups who are free to be a little liberal with ideological policy.

I would have thought that the vast majority of Xenos-toleration events in the M41 Imperium happens at a system or sector level, when a local Governor or local command decides to yield to basic common sense. The only involvement of the higher-ups is normally going to be turning a blind eye to the affair. It's unlikely that you'd get too many directives from Terra or Segmentum Command saying "Species X isn't too bad after all, feel free to make peace with them". Given the nature of the Imperium as a whole, it seems more likely to happen on a local level.

The difference with the Great Crusade is that many of the higher-ups were actually the people on the front lines of the conquering armies: the Emperor and his Primarchs.

philbrad2
28-10-2007, 14:32
Ktotwf & Bro. SICCARIUS

Cease with the mini flamewar. Play nice ...

PhilB
:chrome:
+ WarSeer Mod Team +

mick005usa
28-10-2007, 15:21
It seems that the issue here is whether the Emperor and the Imperium pursued a genuine policy of xenocide during the Great Crusade and whether that policy, if it existed, would have continued to the present day (circa M41)

The preceding posters have given numerous examples of the extermination of alien races during the Great Crusade, i.e. Laer, Megarachnids, Interex, etc. This certainly seems to set some sort of precedent, namely that the Imperium, even under the comparatively more enlightened rule of the Emperor, was willing to engage in the systematic destruction of entire planets, systems and races.

This is all well and good, however, it raises an important question. Was the purpose of the Great Crusade to rid the galaxy of Xenos? Certainly not. To the best of my knowledge, the Great Crusade sought to reconquer and reconnect human worlds to one another and most importantly to the Imperium. It is inevitable that this Crusade would come into contact with alien races, some of which would, and were, inevitably hostile. To me, however, it is too great a jump of logic to assume that the above incidents involving Xenos point to some sort of over-arching "Xenos Final Solution" percolating in the Emperor's oh-so-potent brain.

The idea that the Emperor sought to not only reunify Humanity, but also purge the galaxy of aliens at the same time seems somewhat far fetched. By no means could the Emperor be considered a "xenophile," indeed, his belief in the preemenince of mankind cannot be doubted. During the time of the Great Crusade, at least, it can be stated with a fair degree of certainty that the Emperor did not desire to exterminate the Alien from the galaxy.

With Horus dead, the victorious Emperor and his Legions (whether these Legions were spread into Chapters, Divisions, or Happy-Go-Lucky Warbands o' Death is irrelevant, for the time being) would have continued the Great Crusade at some point. Fast forward about 10,000 years. It seems likely, given the momentum of the Crusade before the Heresy, that the "goal" of the Crusade would have been attained, namely, reuniting humanity. It can be inferred that Chaos, at least, in the form of Chaos Space Marines in the Eye of Terror, spreading destruction etc. etc., would have been marginalized. (this is certainly a leap of faith. Even if the Imperium had hunted down the last of the Traitor Legions, to a man, the Chaos gods would continue to harass the Imperium.) The question becomes, would the Emperor, with his True Imperium intact, turn against the Xenos?

It seems that in current, Carrion Emperor 40k, the impetus for "hate the xeno" comes from a mixture of Imperial religious dogma and old-fashioned ignorance. A walking, talking, fully poseable, karate chop action Emperor would, in my mind, mitigate both the dogma and ignorance of the 40k universe. The Emperor realized Chaos was the impediment to human surivial in, or dominance of the universe. In my mind, he would have directed his efforts against Chaos. The Emperor would not embark on a galactic program of Xenos extermination while the threat of Chaos remained. Certainly, races like the Orks and Tyranids would be dealt with, because they actively seek to destroy and cannot be dealt with diplomatically. When it comes to groups like the Tau...why bother? Any alien race that seemed capable of challenging the Imperium would be put down. Once the worlds of humanity were reunited, what reason would the Imperium have for destroying the galaxy's other inhabitants? Certainly, alien controlled worlds would be conquered if deemed vital or necessary for the "good" of the Imperium. Wide-scale Xenocide, however? If the Imperial Truth was enforced continually for 10,000 years under the Emperor, the paradigm of the Imperium's inhabitants would be radically different. Peaceful Coexistence would be the order of the day.

M1A2 Commander
31-10-2007, 08:34
I am liking this debate very much. Let me add this. With the Emperor calling the shots, would he not want to see humanity advance in technology and allowing humans to broaden their minds into a new golden age? New advances in the sciences, new STC's, weapons, etc.? The AdMech would have to forego the suppression of tech and start building all new and advanced weapons to combat not only the traitors but also to stave off xeno threats. I would think he would not allow the backward slide of human developement that grips the current timeline due to ignorance and fear.


Also gents, lets be civil about this OK. There isno reason for personal attacks or ******ery. I'd like to see this thread live but we need to be adult about it. We are all friends here. Lets keep it that way........

darth mortis
31-10-2007, 21:34
i agree with brother sergeant and scout i think if the emperor was calling the shots it would of been better for the imperium to live peacefully with xenos if there was a chance of not spilling blood on both sides i think he would of taken it. also there would of been a chance for improved weapons and learning new tech from them which would of been more of a benifit then scratching there heads and thinking how on terra did they get this contraption to work, for instance the tau have much more powerful and reliable plasma weapons. surely it would be better for humanity?