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Luthien
23-10-2007, 13:06
No, not a pointlessly long rant but i would just like to have my say. When i read the bit about Luther not being technically astartes it struck me as stupid. you can't reverse one of the most central elements in DA fluff. after all if he wasn't true astartes, just an enhanced warrior how the hell did he beat the lion. I just don't like this idea.
What do YOU think?

reds8n
23-10-2007, 13:12
I don't think Luthor has ever been a full marine.:confused:

He is enhanced and, debate over which side etc etc, enhanced/blessed by the chaos gods which is how he's able to go toe to toe with a primarch.

pookie
23-10-2007, 13:55
No, not a pointlessly long rant but i would just like to have my say. When i read the bit about Luther not being technically astartes it struck me as stupid. you can't reverse one of the most central elements in DA fluff. after all if he wasn't true astartes, just an enhanced warrior how the hell did he beat the lion. I just don't like this idea.
What do YOU think?

in the same way Horus could go toe to toe with the Emperor!

kris.sherriff
23-10-2007, 14:14
Luther has never been a full astartes. He was to old to receive the implants but the Lion pulled some strings and got all of the older members of the order surgical enhancements so that they could fight the good fight with the rest of the Legion.

Kris

The Judge
23-10-2007, 15:29
He was possessed with the power of Chaos when he fought the Lion, as I remember it. That'll give him some benefits.

Adra
23-10-2007, 15:32
we shall see...

trigger
23-10-2007, 15:35
Luther was never a full astarts
and he fought jonson with the power of chaos

Luthien
23-10-2007, 15:45
Luther was never a full astarts
and he fought jonson with the power of chaos

strange i never got this impression while reading the Dark Angels IA article, apart from the chaos bit obviously

pookie
23-10-2007, 15:51
strange i never got this impression while reading the Dark Angels IA article, apart from the chaos bit obviously

its older fluff than the IA, but hey, such is the Way with GW and Fluff.

the only otehr example i can give you is if you have read the HH books, the one with the Bodygaurd who is transformed into a superhuman, but isnt quite a marine.

Adra
23-10-2007, 16:05
I have a sneaking suspision that Luther isnt gonna have anything to do with chaos....oh how the lies of Angels are planted deep.

trigger
23-10-2007, 16:06
codex angels of death (2nd edition)

page 12
Quote
"Those knights still young enough had the legion's geen seed implanted within them,while those to old for this process underwent surgery to transform them into elite warriors of the imperiam.
The first to be brought into the legion this way was Luther who became Jonsons second-in-command,just as he always had been within the order."
END QUOTE.

Hope this sheds some light
Im glad me mate kept this book its a good reed 10 years later
cheers
dave

Kegluneq
23-10-2007, 19:32
I have a sneaking suspision that Luther isnt gonna have anything to do with chaos....oh how the lies of Angels are planted deep.
I'd LOVE that as a twist, but it's immensely unlikely. The seeds of jealousy are there, and if the Chaos powers could corrupt Horus...

Rockerfella
23-10-2007, 19:50
He beats a Primarch in a fight? The Lion at that? Crikey, when is this ridiculous setting going to make up its mind, and stop using 'uber ardness' as and when it chooses to for the sake of its own benefit!

*sheesh!*

MadDoc
23-10-2007, 19:56
I have a sneaking suspision that Luther isnt gonna have anything to do with chaos....oh how the lies of Angels are planted deep.

Yeah sure... :rolleyes: Care to venture how it is then that Luther goes toe-to-toe with a Primarch and doesn't end up a stain on the wall? No? Funny that... Face it Luther was corrupted by Chaos, get over it...

I'm constantly amazed at the DA haters who don't actually think through what they're saying before trying to start something by making inflammatory remarks. Its sad really...


He beats a Primarch in a fight? The Lion at that?

Actually he "mortally" wounds him with a Chaos God fueled psychic attack when the Lion hesitates in cutting his oldest friend, Luther, down. Up until that point he was barely level pegging (still not something he'd be capable of without "backing"). After the attack wounded the Lion, seeing the suffering of his friend snapped Luther out of it and brought him to his senses, which is when the Chaos Gods got pissy and unleashed the Warp Storm that finally shattered Caliban...


Crikey, when is this ridiculous setting going to make up its mind, and stop using 'uber ardness' as and when it chooses to for the sake of its own benefit!

*sheesh!*

...but don't let that stop you having an ill informed bitch about it anyway. :p

HiveFleetEzekial
23-10-2007, 20:45
This thread needing a SPOILER tag aside... (sice likely some people *will* start hopping on and divulging major plot twists/holes/etc.)


I'm not amazed by the 'haters', MD. Think about it... They've taken the Fallen propaganda to heart, so they themselves are Fallen. Ofcourse they're going to stick up for their side, twist little things to the way they want it, and just blatantly ignore all the rest of the facts. "Good job guys, way to play the role! :D" :P (Just as I'll equaly play my own role as the Libi with an IC's personality 'quirks', when they do hop on and get things wrong :skull:)

Kegluneq
23-10-2007, 20:56
The Lion being an ******* and the DA left behind on Caliban being the most morally sound of the legion is now canon. If Zahariel really is Cypher (and it's a possible progression of that character) then it's possible that he really is a 'good guy' after all.

MadDoc
23-10-2007, 21:12
The Lion being an ******* and the DA left behind on Caliban being the most morally sound of the legion is now canon. If Zahariel really is Cypher (and it's a possible progression of that character) then it's possible that he really is a 'good guy' after all.

Most morally sound? Hence the assassination plot... and all the other morally dubious crap they were involved in. Oh, Please... now you're really reaching. As for the Lion being an *******, being aloof and somewhat tactless does not an ******* make.
Not that I actually expect people to look at things critically (the thing people need to realise is, some of us go into things with an open mind and view the material presented (all of it, rather than solely the bits that support some preconcieved notion we might have) objectively).

trigger
23-10-2007, 21:16
me again seeing that there are some disbelivers of luthers aliance to chaos(all be it in an unwitting twit way)
here is some more from codex angles of death 2nd edition
page 12
QUOTE
"Even though the primarch possessed super human powers,the two opponents were evernly matched, for luthers own, already considerable abilerties, had been enhanced by the dark gods of chaos."
END QUOTE
Page13
QUOTE
" as the planet itself started to break apart, the battle between jonson and luther reached its climax. Luther, weakened by the long combat, staggered and fell, leaving himself open to a death blow from jonsons power sword.
AS he hesetated , luther aided by the powers of chaos, unleashed a furious psychic attack that knocked jonson to his knees and left him mortaly wounded.
But as the dying primarch struggled to stand, his noble features racked with pain,it was as if a curtain had been lifted from luther's eyes(ahhh!)and he realised the full extent of what he had done.His was tripple betrayal:his friend,the dark angles and the emperor. the truth shattered his sanity and he slumped down beside jonson, no longer willing to fight."
END QUOTE

There is more but i cant be bothered to type it exactly
SO here it is in space wolf short hand ( I can already sense the grief im guna get from all you DA and all the cheers from my fellow wolves)
Luther then begins to cry like right a little girl , proclaims his love for jonson,
admits the wolvs are better than the dark angles and asks for a mug of hot chocolate, jonson says thats a good idea il have one to.

Meanwhile some were in the eye o terror the chaos gods get mifed that they have lost(again)
and then promtly unleash a warp storm on calliban the like of which have never been seen since october 1986 in england
the planet crumbles
Jonson and luther dicide to do a LENNON(god rest his soul) and yoko and stay in bed (with each other ) forever
THE END

As told by the wolf priests at fenris every friday night.


Disclamer
All quotes are taken from GW's codex army of death
The views and oppinions of the wolf priests ar his and his alone.:evilgrin:

MadDoc
23-10-2007, 21:47
Disclamer
All quotes are taken from GW's codex army of death
The views and oppinions of the wolf priests ar his and his alone.:evilgrin:

Bad dog! I have a rolled up newspaper with you name on it... ;) be afraid. :p

Edit: I'm sure you meant GW's Codex: Angels of Death, right?

He who is doom
23-10-2007, 22:07
is not in the new fluff that the DA have luther in the rock and try to question him every few years.
P.S. dont hate me if i am wrong

MadDoc
23-10-2007, 22:21
is not in the new fluff that the DA have luther in the rock and try to question him every few years.
P.S. dont hate me if i am wrong

Thats not new, and its the Supreme Grand Master who occasionally tries to get him to repent (being the only one with access to him - Sword of Secrets) they also occasionally use him as a sort of oracle (rarely and only when in one of his more lucid states, then back into stasis).

Kegluneq
23-10-2007, 22:34
Most morally sound? Hence the assassination plot... and all the other morally dubious crap they were involved in. Oh, Please... now you're really reaching. As for the Lion being an *******, being aloof and somewhat tactless does not an ******* make.

The only one of Zahariel's friends who was involved in the plot, Nemiel, stays with the Lion. Zahariel et al, Israfael, were left behind. So in other words, everyone capable of making and using a powerful, anti-Chaos bomb was left out of the Lion's plans. Why? Why would the Lion deliberately remove such a weapon from his arsenal? By the end of the book, he's an antagonistic figure.

Adra
23-10-2007, 22:39
Yeah sure... :rolleyes: Care to venture how it is then that Luther goes toe-to-toe with a Primarch and doesn't end up a stain on the wall? No? Funny that... Face it Luther was corrupted by Chaos, get over it...

I'm constantly amazed at the DA haters who don't actually think through what they're saying before trying to start something by making inflammatory remarks. Its sad really...

Lol your a funny fellow aint you. bless.

Did you really think my comment was inflammatory cos it wasnt intended to be. i just would love to have that as a twist. Which ever way it turns out is fine. i dont hate DA i just would like some added cool twists. I mean the end of the book...kinda could go either way...maybe its the Lion who has the chaos taint....he did spend alot of time in them woods...and that deamon must have gone somewhere....

Brother Siccarius
23-10-2007, 22:47
I have a sneaking suspision that Luther isnt gonna have anything to do with chaos....oh how the lies of Angels are planted deep.


I'd LOVE that as a twist, but it's immensely unlikely. The seeds of jealousy are there, and if the Chaos powers could corrupt Horus...


Yeah sure... :rolleyes: Care to venture how it is then that Luther goes toe-to-toe with a Primarch and doesn't end up a stain on the wall? No? Funny that... Face it Luther was corrupted by Chaos, get over it...

I'm constantly amazed at the DA haters who don't actually think through what they're saying before trying to start something by making inflammatory remarks. Its sad really...

I'd agree that he was chaos corrupted, except that Gav Thorpe wrote a book a little while back called Angels of Darkness where he brought up some theories on the issue that have been hotly debated ever since. I'm not saying it's high proof or anything, just that it casts doubt upon taking the Imperial or even Dark Angels view of the events at face value.



Actually he "mortally" wounds him with a Chaos God fueled psychic attack when the Lion hesitates in cutting his oldest friend, Luther, down. Up until that point he was barely level pegging (still not something he'd be capable of without "backing"). After the attack wounded the Lion, seeing the suffering of his friend snapped Luther out of it and brought him to his senses, which is when the Chaos Gods got pissy and unleashed the Warp Storm that finally shattered Caliban...


Question...where did this one come from? Because you can't always take the one side's version of events and simply claim it was the full truth. That's the version of events given by the Dark Angels after it had already been passed down through hundreds of retellings, not exactly an objective look.

Tynesh
23-10-2007, 22:53
I'm surprised that no one has yet picked up on the massage Zahariel gives Nemiel...;)

Caused me to giggle when I read it! Please don't flame me!!!

HiveFleetEzekial
24-10-2007, 05:47
I'd agree that he was chaos corrupted, except that Gav Thorpe wrote a book a little while back called Angels of Darkness where he brought up some theories on the issue that have been hotly debated ever since. I'm not saying it's high proof or anything, just that it casts doubt upon taking the Imperial or even Dark Angels view of the events at face value.

Yes, theories.. presented by a member of The Fallen. Those "theories" are naturally going to be skewed and biased to his favor. He *was* after all trying to turn his interorgator against the rest of the DA. He's going to present things from a diffrent point of view.



Question...where did this one come from? Because you can't always take the one side's version of events and simply claim it was the full truth. That's the version of events given by the Dark Angels after it had already been passed down through hundreds of retellings, not exactly an objective look.

It comes from the Index Astartes article. A set of articles that were presented in the 'god-like'/all knowing view that GW have for the history of all the founding legions, and the creation of the Astartes as a whole. The stuff contained withen said articles are presented based on all acounts of everything that's happened in the 40K background., *not* from a biased PoV from any side or another.



P.S. Thanks for the spoiler 'blinders' guys! :D Will finaly have my own copy to absorb on the 5th (book stores here suck apparently. They just got Fulgrim in! :\ )

Wazzahamma
24-10-2007, 06:04
The IA articles are not 'god's eye' POV. They're written in-universe and there's definitely a narrative/character voice to them. They seem to be written as a 'sacred tome' in the 40k universe by scribes who don't know the full story, have been educated by myths, embellish the truth and push propaganda.

Brother Siccarius
24-10-2007, 08:10
It comes from the Index Astartes article. A set of articles that were presented in the 'god-like'/all knowing view that GW have for the history of all the founding legions, and the creation of the Astartes as a whole. The stuff contained withen said articles are presented based on all acounts of everything that's happened in the 40K background., *not* from a biased PoV from any side or another.

Except that that particular version of events (with Luther defeating the Lion with a "Sorcerous Blast") was not from the Index Astartes Article directly. The IA article quotes it from a tome from the Dark Angels, the "Codicium Astartes Mortis" not from some 3rd person omnipotent view. It even says in the article that this may not be the whole/true version of events.

The Articles themselves are far from "all knowing" especially as they go a good ways to say that there is little information on certain subject matter, and that they are not able to shed light into some corners. The articles sometimes appeared in white dwarf with a short blurb along the lines of a scribe introducing the subject matter to his/her lord.

Rockerfella
24-10-2007, 08:48
Actually he "mortally" wounds him with a Chaos God fueled psychic attack when the Lion hesitates in cutting his oldest friend, Luther, down. Up until that point he was barely level pegging (still not something he'd be capable of without "backing"). After the attack wounded the Lion, seeing the suffering of his friend snapped Luther out of it and brought him to his senses, which is when the Chaos Gods got pissy and unleashed the Warp Storm that finally shattered Caliban...

Right. I see. Well, i've bought the book, but it wasn't in my hands for very long. I'm reading dune, and didn't want to spoil the experience of 'Angels' by double reading, like I often do. So, its now safely at a friends of mine. He better be reading it I tell ya!
:;)




...but don't let that stop you having an ill informed bitch about it anyway. :p

Of course! Why state the obvious?! If I can't have a bitch about something, and an ill informed one at that, then whats the point of all of this! :p;)