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Grendal The Bonecrusher
23-10-2007, 18:08
Im putting together a force for my nephew he loves ogres and knows the game well its his 13th birthday soon and i was thinkin of getting all of the family to buy him a different part of this army i am devising though not really having used ogres i glanced over the book and came up with this

Bruiser
Great weapon
spangleshard
rock eye
heavy armour
192

Butcher
siegebreaker
skullmantle
180

3 bulls
ironfists
light armour
bellower
139

3 bulls
ironfists
light armour
bellower
139

8 ironguts
champion
standard
bellower
434

4 leadbelchers
220

3 yhetees
195

1499

any thoughts would be much appreciated

Josh

Grendal The Bonecrusher
23-10-2007, 18:10
Sorry guys suggestions not involving gnoblars would be appreciated as my nephew doesnt like them
thanks

Josh

huron
23-10-2007, 19:16
take a tyrant instead of a bruiser or get 500 more points and class him as a lord then you can have a buther for gut magic bruiser and a tyrant as your lord with a great weapon he gets a +2-3 thats like strengh 8 or 9 which is quite nasty if you go up against elves or something and get some maneaters that might take you up 2 to two thousand points if it doesnt take a hunter

Grendal The Bonecrusher
23-10-2007, 20:29
you may not field a tyrant in an army under 2000 pts

huron
24-10-2007, 08:52
well put some maneaters or whatever then when you've got enough points spare take a tyrant and you've got a 2k list

Grendal The Bonecrusher
24-10-2007, 12:07
If you had read the initial post properly ima trying to build a 1500 pt list not a 2k one

BigRob
24-10-2007, 14:01
Looks ok, only thing of any note is the size of the Iron Guts unit. Possibly split it in to two smaller units, rank bonus's start getting expensive.

Similarly, some people like to run Leadbelchers in units of 2 or 3 as a flanker deterrent, but 4 is a good line breaking unit.

Not many people like yehtees, but thats normally due to the models, they can do wonders on a terrain heavy board, or against sneaky wood elves.

RavenBloodwind
24-10-2007, 16:19
I think for 1500 points the list is pretty reasonable and something you can make almost entirely from a batallion box (aside from characters, yhetees and a couple of ironguts).

I fully concur with BigRob though on the size of the irongut units. Given the small points you're putting together you really won't find many occasions where the bull-charge bonus matters from those guys on the back row. Since they're a core choice, make 2 units of 4.

If you wanted to shave a few points to get some command for the ironguts, dropping the ironfist from one bull unit and the bellower from the ironguts are both reasonable places to trim without losing much effectiveness. Alternatively dropping to 3 leadbelchers will free up a lot of points but, again as BigRob pointed out, a unit of 4 is a solid unit choice.

Lastly, welcome to WarSeer and you can edit your posts rather than having to post an addendum.

Kadrium
25-10-2007, 16:17
The spangleshard and the rock eye are rotten, rotten magic items. Lose them immediately.

For a bruiser, drop them both, and take a wyrdstone necklace, along with either a great weapon or the siegebreaker. A mundane great weapon is honestly good enough for a bruiser, as he reaches Str 7 with it. That's really plenty to turn any enemy heroes into meat-paste. Take the siegebreaker against things like dwarfs and lizardmen, or if you'll be seeing a lot of chariots, or things that require a magic weapon to wound.

At 1500 I usually try to have a second butcher on the board, though you can sometimes get away with one.

If you stick with a single, unload the siegebreaker from the butcher you have and give him a bangstick and dispel scroll. The bangstick is the best first choice for a butcher, as it is very useful for baiting out dispel dice, or sniping mages and lone characters if your opponent lets it through or fails to dispel.

If you pick up a 2nd butcher, then grab the skullmantle. I would personally take a 2nd dispel scroll, but the siegebreaker is an option for a second butcher, if your bruiser isn't already swinging it.

The bulls really don't need to spend all those points on ironfists and light armor. Bulls are best used in an ogre army as flank chargers, support units, and charge bait. Keep them light and cheap. If you take ironfists, you'll find yourself using them for the extra attack 90% of the time, so why bother paying the point extra for the fist? On top of that, that leaves you with only a light armor 6+ save, which is very easily negated, and very rarely actually rolled when it's not. Strip 'em down in the buff, leave the bellowers on them, and let them bait charges or flank charge to negate rank bonus in support of your ironguts.

Your irongut unit needs to be split up. That block is a giant waste of points that will be very easily out-flanked or ignored because it's so cumbersome and hard to maneuver. If you buy 1 more irongut, you could have 3 units of 3 that can flank and support for eachother, or charge side-by-side to retain the same high amount of attacks in a frontal charge.

Any way you look at it, ogres in ranks are a total waste of points. Split this up into at least 2 units of 4. I'd look for the points to buy one more irongut and get 3 units of 3. Irongut units do well enough carrying standards for the CR and lookout gnoblars to protect characters that join them. Ironguts should not, however, need bellowers. They exist to win combats, not to rally from fleeing. If your ironguts are regularly needing to be rallied, you need better tactics, not bellowers.

There's nothing wrong with actually taking 4 leadbelchers in this list, but split them into 2 units of 2. This way you have the option of deploying some support fire to different portions of the board, or running them right along side eachother anyway. If they run side-by-side, you have the flexibility to not have to fire all 4 shots at the same time, and being able to fire at 2 different targets at once. Plus when you lose a leadbelcher from one of the two units, only the one remaining leadbelcher from that unit of 2 panics, instead of all 3 remaining belchers. Versatility is a hundred fold better with 2 units of 2. Ideally put bellowers on them, as leadbelchers make fantastic charge bait, especially against cavalry and other fast movers. Leadbelchers can move forward 6 inches, fire 12 more inches to annoy/provoke a charge from cavalry, flee away from it, rally with their bellower, and reload while they rally. Then they either find something else to shoot, or charge into the combat they just baited, where 2 of them (us 6) is enough to negate rank bonus on a flank charge.

I would consider the yhetees to be too expensive to take on top of 4 leadbelchers. I would cut either 2 leadbelchers, or the unit of yhettes. Use the points freed up to buy your 9th irongut, so you can take 3 units of 3, and then buy standards and bellowers for the units that need them.

UNDER NO CIRCUMSTANCES should you waste points on ogre champion upgrades. You are spending 20 points for 1 lousy attack. If you happen to pay for 2 champ upgrades, you've spent 40 points for 2 attacks. One ogre bull with an XHW costs 39 points and has 4 attacks and 3 wounds. Champ upgrades for ogre armies are a staggering waste of points. We don't need them to accept challenges, as our heroes, even our butchers, can fend for themselves with their high To and Wo. Since we don't fight in ranks, we never have to worry about getting the 2 attacks back if our front rank is wiped out. With even our rank-and-file ogres getting 3 attacks, do you really need to spend over half the cost of a bull to get 1 more attack?

Summary:

Remove spangleshard and rockeye from Bruiser. Buy Wyrdstone neck and luck gnob.
Exchange skullmantle/siegebreaker for bangstick/dispel scroll on single butcher.
Consider 2nd butcher with skullmantle and scroll.
Remove light armor/ironfists from bulls.
Divide irongut unit into 3 units of 3. Buy them standards and lookouts to cover characters.
Remove champ upgrade.
Remove bellowers from ironguts.
Split leadbelchers into 2x2 units. Buy them bellowers.
Drop yhetees or 1 LB unit. I would drop the yhettes at this point total.

I know you said your nephew doesn't like gnoblars, but I would STRONGLY lobby for a unit of trappers. They're infinately useful as screeners, march blockers, and mage/war machine hunters. They're honestly one of the most underrated and most useful units in the entire OK Army book.

Kadrium
25-10-2007, 16:29
take a tyrant instead of a bruiser or get 500 more points and class him as a lord then you can have a buther for gut magic bruiser and a tyrant as your lord with a great weapon he gets a +2-3 thats like strengh 8 or 9 which is quite nasty if you go up against elves or something and get some maneaters that might take you up 2 to two thousand points if it doesnt take a hunter

Also, holy crap dude, find your period key.

Grendal The Bonecrusher
27-10-2007, 13:51
Thanks all especially Kadrium, anyways I already tweeked the list a little but have put all ofyour thoughts and came up with this

Bruiser
great weapon
heavy armour
luck gnob
wyrdstone necklace
167

butcher
dispel scroll
bangstick
180

butcher
skullmantle
dispel scroll
175

3 ogre bulls
bellower
115

3 ogre bulls
bellower
115

3 ironguts
standard
luck gnob
169

3 ironguts
standard
luck gnob
169

3 ironguts
standard
luck gnob
169

11 trappers
66

3 leadbelchers
bellower
175

1500

thanks guys any more refining?

Kadrium
29-10-2007, 20:15
I would field this list and expect to do well.

Malorian
31-10-2007, 21:13
Your new list is much better : )

Grendal The Bonecrusher
31-10-2007, 21:50
thanks guys, just one more thought should i ewuip the bulls with additional hand weapons?

many thanks
Josh

Damian
31-10-2007, 21:55
Seeing as this army is for your nephew and you say he knows the games well, surely he would want to make his own army list with his own magic items etc... Therefore surely you just need to work out the general points value to see what units to buy and he can figure out unit sizes, items and so on for himself to make the army he wants and so you needn't worry too much about the exact list.

Kadrium
01-11-2007, 15:55
thanks guys, just one more thought should i ewuip the bulls with additional hand weapons?

many thanks
Josh

Extra hand weapons are useful if you play against a lot of very hordey, low armor save troops that you just need a lot of attacks against - Skaven for example.

If you play against anything with a 4+ or better armor save very often, it's best to stick with just the single hand weapon and get the extra -1 armor save from the Ogre Club rule, which you lose when you take a second hand weapon.

Malorian
01-11-2007, 21:22
Until 2+ the extra attack it better.

L192837465
01-11-2007, 21:29
Wow Kadrium, that was one of the more detailed and level-headed arguments/help replies i've ever seen on WarSeer. Bravo.

Listen to 'im kid!

Kadrium
01-11-2007, 21:42
I play ogres a lot. :P

Kadrium
01-11-2007, 21:52
Until 2+ the extra attack it better.

It becomes pretty much dead even at something around a 3+ save. Thats all dependant on relative WS and St vs To.

It really depends on how you roll. Also, the XHW bulls are just plain more expensive and leave less points for ironguts.

Malorian
02-11-2007, 20:09
Exactly, at 3+ it works out exactly the same, but more attacks means the ability to cause more wounds and should always be taken. (Both have zero as the least they can cause but the extra attack means you can cause more)

WS, toughness, and str have nothing to do with the math since it'll be the same no matter what weapon you are using.

Personally at 2000 I take 4 units bulls with extra hand weapon, 3 units of naked bulls, and 3 units of ironguts. This what you have whatever you need for any situation that comes up. (Unless it's all knights and then you wish they were all ironguts...)

Kadrium
03-11-2007, 02:59
I think less bulls and more ironguts is usually better. Aprox a 1:1 ratio works well for me. One unit of ironguts to go with one unit of bulls that can flank/screen for them.

chaos-nightwing
03-11-2007, 09:08
Yes i personally agree with Kadrium. It is always good to have a fair amount of ironguts as they have a very evil strength. I think the list is very good with the two butchers and all the rest. I would consider a bit more leadbouchers or a scrap throwers (might have spell it wrong) to support ur army. U want to make sure that all ur orges gets bull charge when they attack and that cannot be done if the enemy has any chariots or calveries. so u will need long rang to take those out, especially chariots. Their impact hits can really stuff ur orgres up and u want to take them out asap.

Murdoch
03-11-2007, 10:22
Fantastic reasoning Kadrium.

Will now re-write my 2k ogre list to exclude the champions and try lever in another unit of Iron guts.

Agree about the chariots n'wing. Tomb kings made a mess of my flank on Thursday until I tied them down for a turn and blew them away!!! However Scraplaunchers can only be included if you have a unit of gnoblars so Leadbelchers are the way forward for the all ogre list.

Good move with the DS on the Butchers, I generally don't take anything other than these on my butchers as I find rolling six single dice and having a luck gnoblar about is the easiset way to rid an opponent of his dispel dice but the bangstick isn't a bad shout

Grendal The Bonecrusher
08-11-2007, 17:09
Just to ley you know guys i took out to trappers in order to give one unit of bulls additional hand weapons.
my nephew got his whole army for his birthday and is now in the process of kicking my wood elves butt oh well

Kadrium
08-11-2007, 17:25
I can't help you with wood elves. ;)

Goes to show though that Ogres are perfectly competitive with the proper list.