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View Full Version : 2250 Tzeentch middle ground.



fadam
23-10-2007, 22:28
Hokay, so looking for something a little more friendly than my planned Bretonnian army list, I decided to give a few model, magic heavy list a try. I think this one will score higher on comp because it's an "eggs-all-in-one-basket- approach. After taking out my lord, he's essentially won the game.

1 Chaos Lord of Tzeentch @ 805 Pts
General; Mark of Tzeentch; Hand Weapon; Chaos Armor
1 Dragon of Chaos
1 Staff of Change
1 Golden Eye of Tzeentch

1 Aspiring Champion of Tzeentch @ 332 Pts
Mark of Tzeentch; Hand Weapon; Chaos Armor; Shield
1 Chariot of Tzeentch
1 Rending Sword

1 Aspiring Champion of Tzeentch @ 342 Pts
Mark of Tzeentch; Hand Weapon; Chaos Armor; Shield
1 Chariot of Tzeentch
1 Power Familiar

5 Chaos Knights of Tzeentch @ 240 Pts
Mark of Tzeentch; Musician Mus; Standard Bearer Std; Barding; Hand Weapon; Heavy Armor; Shield
1 War Banner

10 Chaos Warriors of Tzeentch @ 188 Pts
Mark of Tzeentch; Musician Mus; Standard Bearer Std; Hand Weapon; Heavy Armor; Shield

10 Chaos Warriors of Tzeentch @ 188 Pts
Mark of Tzeentch; Musician Mus; Standard Bearer Std; Hand Weapon; Heavy Armor; Shield

10 Furies @ 150 Pts
Causes Fear; Daemonic; Flyer; Immune to Psychology


TOTAL: 2245

Casting Dice: 16
Dispel Dice: 7
Model Count: 43

I'm looking for a good blend of power and friendliness. I play a 2250 Ogre army that nobody seems to have any issue with so I'd like to keep that going.

Is there anything on the list that's just pointless? I'm concerned about the warrior blocks.


Also what would you guys recommend representing the Lord+Dragon with?

chaos-nightwing
24-10-2007, 10:18
i would say that ur army is too caowded with characters. i would say that it is good to see a strong senses of magic in their, which is what i like, but too strong can make it really.... i would say that on dragon is pretty unessacery. in 2250, character should use up about no greater than 750 pts. i would say put alot more troops in. alot more. i understand u like a heavy magic list(so do i) but i think having 10-11 power dice is good enough.

i would say that do this:
-lord of chaos, mark of Tzeentch, chaos steed, shield, chaos runesword-439pts
-aspiring champ, chaos steed, shield, mark of tzeentch-168
-Lv2 ssoccers of chaos-120
-5 chaos knights, standard, musician, MOT-215
-20 chaos worriers, shield, full command, MOT-350
-2 chariots of chaos, mark of tzeentch-280
-35 marauders, with LA and shields, full command-270
-5 marauders horseman, shield, spears, throwing axes/javiling, full command-125
-18 horrors-270

this gives u 14 power dice, 6 dispells dice. and a strong combatting powers( sorry, im a non english speaker) try it out and tell me how u thinks. Lucks!

der_lex
24-10-2007, 13:16
There's no such thing as a Tzeentch list being too crowded by characters, and 10-11 power dice is NOT enough in a Tzeentch list. The alternative suggested by chaos-nightwing is a completely different, generic Chaos list altogether. Not bad, but probably not what you are looking for. Sorry if I sound harsh, but it kinda annoys me when people don't tweak an army list, but offer some unrelated alternative list instead. The only time when it's right to do so, IMO, is when the original list is completely unviable, but that's certainly not the case here.

I do, however, feel that a dragon isn't really a thing to go for in a 'friendly' list, though. Yes, it's an 'all-eggs-in-one basket' thing, but do you have any idea how hard to kill a lord on dragon with the golden eye is? He's nearly impervious to shooting, and won't get into combat unless you want to or mess up royally. It will probably end up annoying people just as much as your Brets apparently do :p.

Things I'd personally do with this list:

- Swap out the dragon for a Disc of Tzeentch. The lord is basically a mobile artillery platform anyway, and can zip around fast enough as it is with the disc, yet still help out in a fight if necessary.

This will give you a lot of points to:

- Boost one character up to Exalted. I'd keep him in the chariot, and give him a Berserker Sword. Exalted champ + berserker sword + chariot base size + Orange fire re-rolls is absolutely lethal.

- Possibly take your other aspiring champion out of his chariot (which will do fine on his own) and put him with one of the Warrior units as a Battle Standard Bearer. Tzeentch is a bit more vulnerable to psychology than other Chaos armies, so the BSB really helps them a lot, in my experience. Also, you might get lucky and roll up Yellow fire, which helps keep your warriors alive a bit longer.

- Boost the CW units up in size to 12 each, with a frontage of six. They're basically hammer units, so it's nice to get as many attacks in as you can. Give them either and additional hand weapon, great weapon or a halberd, otherwise they're not going to get enough hits in, and will lose in combat resolution because of it.

- Swap the Furies out for Screamers. Trust me on this, because of their toughness and 'strafing' ability, a Screamer unit will get the job done done much better than Fury unit, regardless of the smaller size.

- If you have the points, get two units of five Warhounds to screen your army from missile fire.


If you're interested, I hope to have my Tzeentch magic tactica up this week in the 'Magic 101', which also gives some pointers on how to use a small, magic-heavy Tzeentch army. Best of luck with your list!

Dicey
24-10-2007, 13:33
Well said Der Lex
though I would disagree with the Furies, they are one of the best units in a choas army, though not particulary Tzeentchy. A couple of spawn/ fore wrymms would work well in your army as they can act as "road bumps" on those nasty units giving you more time for your magic to tkae its toll.

Making your chaos knights chosen Tzeentch IMHO is a waste of points too much for one more power die. Keep them chosen but put the tzeentch marks points elsewhere.

your lord on the dragin will rule against most magical opponents (not slann) though be aware the rules for the staff have changed under the current rule set, you have to reroll all the dice not just one :-(

der_lex
24-10-2007, 15:30
Furies are good, but Screamers are usually better. They are tougher, hit harder, have a higher leadership (which keeps them for going poof if the combat goes against them) and have a nifty special attack to boot, for only 15 points more (when comparing 10 furies to 5 Screamers). I personally find they have a bit more staying power than the fragile furies.

Would personally advise against dropping the Mark on the knights...'one more power die' can sometimes mean getting one extra spell off, thanks to the power dice you already have.

Spawns are good as tarpits, but only against non-shooty armies (they tend to drop like flies to missile fire when I play with them).

If you play defensively, a Hellcannon is an amazing addition to any Tzeentch army (check out the link in Neknoh's profile for our mutual tactica on using them properly), but unfortunately it's not a feasible addition in any Tzeentch army of less than 2500 points (of course, adding it would bump your army up to 2500 points... :D).

One last thing: despite your magic superiority against just about any opponent, I'd still advise to take at least one dispel scroll against any non-dwarf army. You can't really afford to take heavy losses with such a small army, and there's always that one game-breaking spell that you really want to stop...

MarcoPollo
24-10-2007, 16:26
I think that furries are better than screemers. And I only use screemers if I need to include a tzeetch character in an undivided force. Furries get -1 for skirmishing to hit, and really help screen your expensive units quite well. 6 furries cost 90 pts while the same number of wounds on screemers cost 99 pts. And you can park them behind units in longer lines to get your kills of of fleeing troops (something a terror bomb like a Dragon can do well).

I also think that keeping the chosen knight undivided is key. This is a major hammer and you want them to not have such trouble with ld as a tzeetch mark has.

der_lex
24-10-2007, 17:00
I think that furries are better than screemers. And I only use screemers if I need to include a tzeetch character in an undivided force. Furries get -1 for skirmishing to hit, and really help screen your expensive units quite well. 6 furries cost 90 pts while the same number of wounds on screemers cost 99 pts.

Screamers are flyers, so they're skirmishers as well. And for those measly 9 extra points, you get +1 STR, +1 toughness, +2 leadership, and a useful special ability. I call that a bargain.

Dicey
24-10-2007, 21:43
though furies have a 360 view, screamers dont as thet are on monster bases

chaos-nightwing
25-10-2007, 08:25
yes, mabe the 10-11 power dice isnt good enough for tzeentch. but for the army list i constructed, it have 14 not 10 nor 11. and if a tzeentch army doesnt have any surport to absord the shoot from the enemy troops than what good can soccers do?

I agree with MarcoPollo as even though furies have lower toughness, and LD, the problems can be solved. the furies are not for killing the enemy troops, but flanking or others to gain combat res. so their low tough ness is not a problem. even when shooted, they are harder to hit. even for elf, they have to roll 5+ to hit as they are skirmishers, and it should be long rang. than 4+ to wound. than they get another 5+ ward, which only maby kill one or two if the enemy have 20 archers. For the LD problem, just put them near the army general so they can use the general's LD. The can also help the general of expansive troops to obsord nasty magic and shouting. Eg: put them to block the line of sight of a bucher so he cannot cast the bonecrack spell on the chaos chosen knights with the chaos lord in it. ps the name of the spell might be wrong but it do 2D6 stranght2 hit with no armoursave aloud. see what the furies just save?

der_lex
25-10-2007, 13:36
If you want screens, get Warhounds. They can do the job just as well, and are cheaper.

I won't deny furies have their uses. I always use them when playing another Mark than Tzeentch or Undivided. But using fliers as screens in a Chaos army is a waste, IMO. Since you have no ranged weapons (other than magic, when playing Tzeentch), your fliers are your only way to get rid of war machines, enemy casters, and enemy shooters. Now maybe it's because I play against Dwarves a lot, but Furies tend to get the snot kicked out of them fairly quickly, whereas Screamers can withstand a lot more punishment. And since you use them for coordinated pinpoint strikes, the lack of 360 vision isn't a problem. All in all, I still see no reason to pick Furies over Screamers (or Warhounds, if you need screens).

And all hope is lost if you need to protect a Tzeentch lord with a golden eye from shooting and magic anyway...that must mean you suffer from absurdly bad dice rolls :D

Just Tony
25-10-2007, 14:08
Call me silly/different/eccentric, but I'm a HUGE fan of the 5X4 regiments. I can't really see much use in a two rank squad of nonballistic troops. Now, something you should consider is Minotaurs. They are cheap, can come with great weapons, can be marked, and also have a nifty 3D6 pursue. Horrors also to me are MORE than worth it. AND most Tzeentch is expensive enough for you to stay HORRIBLY outnumbered. Should be a real challenge for you.

However, I agree with the rest of the board and think the dragon is a bit much. The chariot idea is decent, but can be targeted out too easily for my taste. I usually keep my characters in a ranked unit...

der_lex
25-10-2007, 14:57
A two rank squad of elite infantry (which is what CW's are) can be used as a hammer unit... It's supposed to charge, hit heavy, and win the combat in one round (not saying it will...)

The problem is that it's best used for flank charges, so you need to have the opposing unit in combat already with a tougher anvil unit most of the time. I personally use a 5x4 block of fully armoured marauders for this. (wouldn't be bad in this list either). Oddly enough, Chosen Knights make a decent anvil unit as well, since they're pretty hard to take down.

The Mino's are a good plan...hadn't considered them, since I don't play with Beasts out of principle.

I'm trying to see why you think Horrors are a good idea, though. I have to admit that I don't 'get' Horrors. Yes, they have a ward save, cause fear and can cast a bound spell once per turn... But they still have the stats of an average goblin, and are insanely expensive (especially if you add Flamers, which they more or less need to make them effective). Personally, I'd rather field something else for those points. I'm going to open up a separate discussion for this, however...the flyer discussion already derailed this thread enough (my bad :D )

Just Tony
25-10-2007, 15:18
Because they cause fear, they can STILL hold a charge, and with as many spells and bound items as I throw out, they usually get their shots off. And some of them can be nasty. PLUS, if you lose some, you'll have the models to use for the spell that turns casualties into horrors. I don't run flamers, though, as I'd rather keep the points free for other things...

Kadrium
25-10-2007, 15:52
though furies have a 360 view, screamers dont as thet are on monster bases

Uuuuhhhhh.... whut?