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FieronThor
07-09-2005, 11:30
Does anyone know of any other descriptions of the Phalanx, and do they think it roughly is equivalent to the size of a Ramilles class star fort or larger than that.

Giladis
07-09-2005, 11:53
From what can be read berween the lines it is roughly 2x larger.

FieronThor
07-09-2005, 12:32
Are there any official flff on the size of the ramilles?

Giladis
07-09-2005, 12:44
Not really. Allthoe BFG armada states that it can serve 4 capital ships at once so it is quite big.

Escorts are about 800m-1200m (Cobra-Firestorm)
Dauntlesses are about 2.5km
Cruisers are around 3-3.5km(capital ship)
Battleships cca 4-4.5km(capital ship)

Brusilov
07-09-2005, 13:05
The "size of a small moon" is what comes to mind when I think of the Phalanx for some reasoin (without a superlaser obviously).

Wiseman
07-09-2005, 13:26
yeh a small moon is what springs to mind, isnt that what it was made out of afterall?

FieronThor
07-09-2005, 13:27
the 'size of a small moon' i think is from the index astartes artices. However like you say Brusilov, I keep on thinking it's the Deathstar.
In the IA it does also say that the Phalanx is a portent of the Darke Age of Technology. So I also presuming that it is probably far superior in firepower to any fortress monastery or star fort.

Brusilov
07-09-2005, 13:31
I think the Phalanx, contrary to the Rock is not built around an asteroid or chunk of planet but is entirely artificial, and while it does not have the superlaser, it probably has enough firepower to wipe out a good sized fleet or annihilate all life on the surface of a continent.

FieronThor
07-09-2005, 13:32
Yeah I agree. It is however a pity that GW has not broadened the fluff on this ship, or at least as much as they have done on the ROck/Tower of Angels.

Inquisitor Maul
07-09-2005, 14:02
That's not a moon, it's a space station... :eek:

Wiseman
07-09-2005, 14:07
If it was from the DAoT era then wouldnt there more then just the one, there would have to be something similar left over

Vanisher
07-09-2005, 14:31
IIRC the Death Star has aproximetly 120 km in diameter,and is manned by a crew of 750 000.Yet still the Eclipse Super Star Destroyer is some 15 km long and has the exact same amount of crew memebers(the Executor class featured in the movies was piervously stated to have a leanght of 8 km,but recent sources say that it is actualy 19 km long).

Sai-Lauren
07-09-2005, 15:19
That's not a moon, it's a space station... :eek:

Blast, beaten to it... ;)

I think Death Star II's supposed to be at 150km, but most of their volume is supposed to be things like stores, power generation and hyperdrives, plus the planet-buster superlaser.

FieronThor
07-09-2005, 17:02
Considering the amount of space needed to keep at least half a legion (remember this ship was used as the home for the legion originally), then the phalanx would have to be huge. Taking into account as earlier said, the amount of firepower it would presumably have and shields also therefore the accompanying generators and staff to maintain that, is it reasonable to say that the Phalanx is probably the biggest space going thing the Imperial has. I think actually it could probably be more in size to half a eldar craftworld.

just
07-09-2005, 21:00
And yet I have a sneaking suspicion that it might be a paper tiger.

I like the Phalanx and the concept that the Imperium has a weapon in their arsenal to match Abaddons Planetkiller. However, the fact that there is so little information about it being involved in the heavier conflicts were its presence might have turned the tide gives me four possible options.

(1) Its due to its relative new conception in the background and as such hasn't been shoehorned into the previous and existing background as much as other of its contemporary creations. The "Rule of Cool" just hasn't caught up with it yet.

(2) The Imperial Fists can't untilize its full potential as a weapon, either due to logistical and resource problems or because of the Adeptus Me-can't-icus angle. The knowledge of operating it is confined to just cruising it around and firing defensive weapons.

(3) Its not offensive in nature, but defensive. Its just really a big space station intended to be used as a mobile base of operations, capable of housing large numbers of troops, moving them around and supplying warships. It has little weapons capability, its primary defensive weapons were supposd to be an escort of warships.

(4) The Imperial Fists have read the parts in Codex Astartes stating that "Thou shall not **** were thou eatest." They are basically afraid of loosing their big shiny thing.

Brusilov
07-09-2005, 21:47
On the matter of the Death Star. The first one (from Episode 4 A new hope) has a diametre of 120km and the second one (from Episode 6 Return of the Jedi) has a diametre of 160 km. And don't mention the crew of Star Wars vessels, they just seemed bizarre to me, when compared to the high level of technological pervasive in the SW universe.

And honestly I'm not sure, Phalanx is a recent addition. IIRC it already existed in the novel Space Marines that feature Imperial Fists and is over 15 years old

FieronThor
07-09-2005, 22:11
Well from the IA article it indicates that the Phalanx is at the crux of IF battles ( the bit about it shadowing the Ulthwe craftworld). I just think it is probably a space station and base of operations, which fits in more with the Codex Astartes approach of good lines of supply and logistics.
I think I would never compare it with the Planet Killer, but more likely as a ramilles star fort. However I would think that it could seriously take care of itself when necessary.

DantesInferno
07-09-2005, 23:36
Anyone else wonder what it was up to during the Heresy and the Siege of Terra? Since they've still got it now, it obviously wasn't destroyed (and a pre-emptive strike here, Phalanx and the Sky Fortress [the flying ship which was destroyed during the siege of the Palace] are not the same thing), so it must have run off from the Chaos fleet as it took orbital control over Terra. On second thoughts, I'm not surprised we dont hear about what it was doing....

FieronThor
08-09-2005, 08:26
Well in the new Sabretooth HHCCG fluff, they say that a proportion of the Imperial Fist fleet and Marines went off to Istavaan III to confront the traitors and also find what exactly happened. So I presume that the ship ending up being there.

Wiseman
08-09-2005, 11:29
the HHCCG has butchered the fluff though, just ignore whatever it says and do the oposite

Nazguire
08-09-2005, 11:46
the HHCCG has butchered the fluff though, just ignore whatever it says and do the oposite


Truer words have never been spoken as of late.

FieronThor
08-09-2005, 12:34
True, the Sabretooth fluff is bad and conflicts with recent fluff (e.g. if the iron hands know their primarch's been beheaded how do they think he will return), but it is official fluff so has to be taken into account.

Brusilov
08-09-2005, 13:53
Don't mention the Sabertooth fluff to me, I'm going to have an attack :p And they put Abnett in charge of a novelisation.... :rolleyes: We're in for even more inconsistencies than ever. In the end, we'll just have to pick whatever we like from this mess and try to make sense of it, as always :eyebrows:

Wiseman
08-09-2005, 14:45
how about we write our own 40k history then, the way it should be done...

bertcom1
08-09-2005, 16:49
I think the capabilities of Phalanx do not allow for it to function as a conventional ship.

It is described as a mobile station rather than a giant battleship, which tends to suggest that it is not fast or manouverable.

Compared with the Black Templars HQ vessel, the Eternal Crusader which is described as a giant battlebarge.

Phalanx is probably strategically mobile, but not tactically, and probably serves as a secure staging point. It probably has enough firepower to lay waste to entire enemy fleets, so could be used to blockade a jump point while the Imperial Fists fleet drive the enemy into its guns.

Abaddons Planet Killer, on the other hand, is fast enough to act as a conventional battleship. (Described as being ponderously slow, and this is its only weakness, yet it is as fast as the majority of the Imperial ships, and faster than almost every Imperial battleship. Go figure)

As to why Phalanx did nothing much during the Heresy, it may simply have been too slow to reach anywhere where it would have made a difference.

FieronThor
08-09-2005, 17:34
I don't think we need to write our own 40k fluff but instead just need to follow the older stuff.
Back to topic - I would still think that the Phalanx would of been used as a tactical base. You have to remember that pre-heresy, the Imperial Fists were mostly a assualt force ued to take down static defenses. Therefore they would of needed a mobile fortress, e.g. Phalanx, to move different parts of the Imperium quickly and have a lot of firepower.

Talkie Toaster
08-09-2005, 18:23
If the Phlanax s that ridiculously big, it may be impractical (or dangerous) to manouverit anywhere near a gravity well (the difference in forces over a 160km distance will be noticable, if not incredibly huge leading to structural problems), and the engine power needed to accelerate it would be equaly massive. In all likelihood, it can only move via warp drive, which would make it more useful as a deterrent in a certain area than as an offensive craft. (The opponens could just run away).

Brusilov
09-09-2005, 01:00
We don't need to write our own fluff, we need GW to do their work properly.
The Phalanx was probably used in the same way Ramilies are currently used in the Imperium, that is massive staging areas for the armies of the Emperor. The Phalanx probably carried its own contingent of Imperial Army troops, but no longer, most of it is probably empty now.

just
09-09-2005, 05:14
Well from the IA article it indicates that the Phalanx is at the crux of IF battles ( the bit about it shadowing the Ulthwe craftworld).

Its quite a step from shadowing the Ulthwe Craftworld to being at the crux of IF battles.

FieronThor
09-09-2005, 09:18
Well no, because in that instance, the Phalanx was used to be near a threat, an would of been at the forefront of the battle, should Ulthwe of attacked any planets etc.

Nazguire
10-09-2005, 09:38
In my mind, the Phalanx has the ability to destroy what attacks it, via guns and the fleet/troops stationed aboard it. However, being unreasonably slow in real-space, and too valuable to lose, and presumably mainly empty (due to it being designed for the Imperial Fist LEGION<----) it doesn't have the ability to take on entire fleets as it could have maybe done in its heyday.

Nowadays its more of a deterrent. It's always there but the chances are, as long as the enemy is afraid of it, it isn't going to be used anytime soon.

FieronThor
10-09-2005, 10:41
That's especially true, since the Imperial Fists are pretty much around Terra, and would not send of their best assets to a another place far from Terra.

Marshal Draziel
12-09-2005, 18:48
You've mentioned the size of the Phalanx, and somebody also mentioned the Eternal Crusader, dos anybody have any fluff about its size??

I know what the Black Templars WD article said, but has there been any BFG fluff about it?

FieronThor
12-09-2005, 21:07
To my knowledge nothing in BFG has appeared on it.

Brusilov
13-09-2005, 00:10
The new BT Codex may have some information on that, but there is no detail published on the Eternal Crusader as of yet. And honestly I have a hard time imagining what could be more powerful than a battle barge... except the Planet Killer

sulla
13-09-2005, 07:10
The Phalanx probably carried its own contingent of Imperial Army troops, but no longer, most of it is probably empty now.

I like that idea...A mostly empty starfort with a well maintained baracks and weapons system, but the rest of the vessel, empty dusty corridors and rooms with the silence only disturbed by the humm of a servo skull patrolling of the tread of a servitor conducting service checks... :cool:

Inquisitor Maul
13-09-2005, 10:42
And honestly I have a hard time imagining what could be more powerful than a battle barge

A bigger Battle barge? :rolleyes: ;)

FieronThor
13-09-2005, 16:31
I just think the Eternal Crusader will have larger Space MArine carrying capabilities.

Nazguire
14-09-2005, 10:08
That's especially true, since the Imperial Fists are pretty much around Terra, and would not send of their best assets to a another place far from Terra.


They aren't always around Terra, they are doing the Imperial Fist thing and flying around recruiting from Necromunda, Inuit AND Terra. Since the Fists have historical significance with Terra, there may be an honour guard/fleet permenently around the planet, but most like Chapters they are off fighting evil and whatnot. :D

Wiseman
14-09-2005, 10:13
id say they wouldnt even leave an honour guard on terra, considering it already has a huge defense force

lord_blackfang
14-09-2005, 10:40
After the Heresy, SM we reorganized so that they couldn't control too much stuff, ie. as far as ships go, they were only allowed to keep whatever they needed to get them from place to place. I don't think the IF would have been allowed to keep the Phalanx if it had powerful offensive capability. Being able to withstand attacks, act as a staging point, etc. is fine, but being able to attack and waste entire fleets or planets is not!

Nazguire
14-09-2005, 10:54
After the Heresy, SM we reorganized so that they couldn't control too much stuff, ie. as far as ships go, they were only allowed to keep whatever they needed to get them from place to place. I don't think the IF would have been allowed to keep the Phalanx if it had powerful offensive capability. Being able to withstand attacks, act as a staging point, etc. is fine, but being able to attack and waste entire fleets or planets is not!

The Relictors had a Ramillies Star Fortress. That would certainly be able to lay waste to fleets.

Wiseman
14-09-2005, 11:11
and the dark angels have the rock, i think that it all depends on what chapter is allowed what really

Brusilov
15-09-2005, 13:20
And the Mortificators also seem to have a Ramilies type space fortress as their monastery. Personally I believe blackfang may have a point but, then a fortress monastery even on the ground is a pretty formidable asset. And you could remove the warp drives and conventional engines to make space for more hangar and training ground once the Ramilies has reached orbit, as such you'd avoid the problem of the Chapter going rogue and taking the Fortress with them.

And remember first founding Chapters will get away with things no later chapter could ever dream of. The Ultramarines have their own personal empire, the Fists have a Death Star like fortress monastery, the DA have the Rock, the Space Wolves could not care less about Codex Astartes... It's also a question of prestige