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EvC
26-10-2007, 14:39
So the rules state that when declaring a charge you must be reasonably confident that you'll be able to reach the enemy... but what if you declare a charge from multiple units, including one unit that starts way too far away to reach the enemy, knowing that if the enemy flees, you'll then be in range and able to catch the fleeing unit?

Example:

YYYYY







EEEEE

XXXXXX

So in this case X wants to charge the enemy E but believes E will flee. Knowing this, he also declares with Y, which is way outside of its charge range... but if E does flee, going directly away from X, then Y may well be able to catch E...

So is the charge declaration legal?

Atrahasis
26-10-2007, 14:42
We're waiting on a response from the design team as to exactly how much prescience a unit is capable of when deciding whether a charge is reasonable enough to declare.

What I can tell you is that if Y is frenzied, then it cannot/will not declare the charge, as it is not in range at the time of declaration.

Beyond that, whatever you agree with your opponent is fair play until the design team get back to us.

Chicago Slim
26-10-2007, 14:58
While I agree with Atrahasis that you can house rule it however you like, I think that the rules are pretty clear that you must believe that the target unit is in range during the Declare Charges sub-phase, in order to declare the charge. There's all sorts of things that might happen between Declare Charges and Move Chargers, but I don't think that you can presume any of them.

An extreme case would be "I don't have line of sight on that fanatic, but I'm guessing that it's going to come into my front arc during Compulsory Moves, so I'll declare a charge against it..." I'm playing reducio ad absurdem, I know, but still....

Atrahasis
26-10-2007, 15:08
Slim, if you go the route that the charge must be completable without any knowledge of what will happen, then multiple charges become very difficult. For example:


AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA


___________BBBBBBBBB
________CCCCCCC

I think most people would allow B&C to charge A, provided B declares first.

Chicago Slim
26-10-2007, 16:18
Sure-- there's every reason to believe that both B and C will be able to complete the charge, and so both B and C can declare it. (The FAQ's language rules out charges that "you know cannot be completed").

This is different from the original example, in which the presumption appears to be that EITHER X or Y can complete the charge, but not both.

rick_u
26-10-2007, 16:22
I'm new here, but the multiple charges is different, because they can see them and have the range, B just has to declare his charge first to get out of the way. In the case above, Y is out of range and I believe that is what the rule says. if you are obviously out of range you cannot declare a charge.

I don't think you can make a charge on it. However you could just possibly march, and just cross fire him, chances are that tactic would work the same.

Urgat
26-10-2007, 16:27
We're waiting on a response from the design team as to exactly how much prescience a unit is capable of when deciding whether a charge is reasonable enough to declare.

What I can tell you is that if Y is frenzied, then it cannot/will not declare the charge, as it is not in range at the time of declaration.

?
AfaIk, frenesy forces you to charge when in range, but it does not prevent you from declaring a charge? I might be wrong, mind.

Atrahasis
26-10-2007, 16:30
the rules are pretty clear that you must believe that the target unit is in range during the Declare Charges sub-phase,


Sure-- there's every reason to believe that both B and C will be able to complete the charge,

You've dropped part of the condition between your two posts - in the first you say that the player must believe that the charge in in range in the Declare Charges sub-phase, in the second only that they will be able to complete the charge.

The former disallows "screening", the latter does not.

theunwantedbeing
26-10-2007, 17:37
Unit Y is clearly not in range of unit E so it may not declare a charge it.

Very simple.
Where the unit you want to charge ends up has no bearing on whether you are allowed to charge them or not.

Atrahasis
26-10-2007, 17:49
?
AfaIk, frenesy forces you to charge when in range, but it does not prevent you from declaring a charge? I might be wrong, mind.

Frenzied troops cannot declare charges by choice - they can only declare charges that a forced upon them by frenzy.

Chicago Slim
28-10-2007, 16:49
You've dropped part of the condition between your two posts - in the first you say that the player must believe that the charge in in range in the Declare Charges sub-phase, in the second only that they will be able to complete the charge.

The former disallows "screening", the latter does not.

That's just because I don't think that range comes into the second (screening) case. Both units are clearly in range, and both have LOS. Both can declare. Keep in mind that the FAQ uses the example of units that are clearly out of range, but makes clear that you can't ever declare a charge that you know will be impossible to complete.


Back to the case at hand: If C declares but B does not, then C will certainly fail the charge-- so that's an illegal declaration. If both declare, then it's also possible that B will, for some reason, fail to move during the Move Chargers phase (most likely example would be if the target causes Fear, B fails its Fear test, C passes it). In such a case, C will fail it's charge, but the possibility that the charge might fail doesn't prohibit its declaration (only the certainty of failure prevents the declaration).

So here's where my arguments collapse back into consistency: In EVERY case, we declare charges based on the situation during Declare Charges. At that point, Y is clearly out of range, while B and C are clearly in range, and capable of completing a charge subject to the rules for "multiple chargers to the same target" (where they'll split the frontage).

T10
28-10-2007, 17:46
So is the charge declaration legal?

I believe it is not - at least that's my opinion. As pointed out, the charge rules require that the charging player to accurately gauge the opportunity for success, and in this situation that isn't entirely feasible.

While you have a clear goal: destroying the fleing unit with the second chargers, that second charge declaration is only "reasonably certain" to succeed if you take a couple of random factors and uncertainties for granted.

First of all there is your opponent's decision to flee or not. In my opinion, you should always assume that the enemy unit will hold when deciding wether to charge or not. Even if the enemy unit is under compulsion to flee, this will only happen if the (any?) charger can reach the initial position.

Then there is the Flee distance. In my opinion it's unreasonable to assume that reaching the final position of the fleeing unit has anything to say on the validity of the charge.

If both units had been within charge range of the unit then I would see no problem with it.

-T10

EvC
28-10-2007, 18:29
I think that all seems nice and logical, so that's how I'd play it!

Crazy Harborc
29-10-2007, 01:38
I normally discuss close calls (as far as in range for a charge) with my (regular) opponents. The rules are clear about not declaring charges that are obviously out of movement distance/range.