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hairyman
07-09-2005, 21:06
:wtf: :mad:

Bring back Graham Taylor, all is forgiven....

Venomizer
07-09-2005, 21:16
I can only descrive that performance with two words: Absolute Shambles

Sven, start stepping and hit the bricks - but please DO NOT give Steve Mclaren the job

Big_Bear_Scot
07-09-2005, 21:27
Ha Ha :D

Sorry guys, but as a Scotsman I had to do it.

Northern Ireland show that pride passion can make up the difference when you really don't have the talent available, I think the England players should take some lessons from the Northern Irish Players.

I honestly think that England have amazing players but they don't seem to gel as a team especially when you try to shoe horn Beckham, Lampard and Gerrad into the same Midfield. Sven needs to make a decision and go with the best two central midfielders and drop one of them.

But well done Northern Ireland, they got everything right.

The Pumpkin King
07-09-2005, 21:33
Congratulations to Sven 'Borin' Eriksson for immediately putting Owen back into the team even though he is out of match practise, shunting Rooney out onto the left wing and wasting him oh and my own pet hate...Beckhams continual dominance of everything the team does. Such as the way he moves into the centre of midfield and spends the entire game hitting long passes at the right wing, ignoring Gerrard and Lampard next to him........ah rant over I feel better now!

Wisdom
07-09-2005, 21:59
Psycho for England manager

Venomizer
07-09-2005, 21:59
Psycho for England manager

amen to that

Cade
07-09-2005, 23:01
Tonight is the first time I have ever seen England play a game of football and not heard 1966 mentioned by any commentators or pundits.

Time to face facts.

England are a second-rate team.

Kohhna
07-09-2005, 23:03
Well I tend to support ROI in the internationals but I have a few NI supporting friends (for that read protestants) who will be quite chuffed tonight.

On England, well, when Northern Ireland are beating you, you know your in trouble.

wanderingblade
07-09-2005, 23:12
Tonight is the first time I have ever seen England play a game of football and not heard 1966 mentioned by any commentators or pundits.

Time to face facts.

England are a second-rate team.

To go by your ratings, the vast majority of the world are third rate or worse presumably. England still have a massive amount of talent, players that would work into other international squads without problems. Second-rate presumes only about 3 first rate teams, namely Brazil, Argentina and Italy (maybe France with the return of Zizou).

Of course, with Eriksson, things get distorted, and it looks more 5th rate than anything...

Which is why I'm disowning my country until it's something recognisable and something you can take pride in.

If anyone here can hook me up with a Brazilian, Argentine or suchlike girl so I've got a good excuse for support someone else I'd be much obliged.

5upr3m3 h4xx0rz
07-09-2005, 23:20
3 first rate teams, namely Brazil, Argentina and Italy (maybe France with the return of Zizou).


Italy? Sucks.

France? Total ****

Who do i think will be the final four?

Brazil, Argentina, Poland (okay, youll see), and the Netherlands.

I would love for Greece to be there, but i just dont see it happening. I hope they at least qualify, though....

Its good thing im half Dutch :D. Between supporting the Dutch and the Greeks, i always have a winning team :p

Hywel
07-09-2005, 23:56
When I heard the roar in the pub, I assumed we'd scored against Poland.

Not so, I should've known there was too much celebrating for that.

boogle
08-09-2005, 00:37
It has nbow shown that SGE is tactically inept, his lack of tactical nous has put the England team in real danger of not qualifying

hairyman
08-09-2005, 08:31
We must've played three different formations in the second half.. some players were playing three positions in the space of 45 mins. Some of the best midfield players looked like rubbish. Everyone was arguing with each other. I've always been a fan of Svennis, but really that's all down to him. He seems to have lost the plot.

Pscycho? Yeah, why not. There's no one else any better who's English.

wanderingblade
08-09-2005, 08:49
Italy? Sucks.

France? Total ****

Who do i think will be the final four?

Brazil, Argentina, Poland (okay, youll see), and the Netherlands.

I would love for Greece to be there, but i just dont see it happening. I hope they at least qualify, though....

Its good thing im half Dutch :D. Between supporting the Dutch and the Greeks, i always have a winning team :p

In which case, there's only two first grade countries. And when I look at the Confederations Cup Final again... there's one.

Nevertheless, Italy have a world class manager in Lippi with World Class players. They might have underperformed hugely at the last Euros, but I'd say they've improved since then.

They're certainly the best team in Europe. Holland are coming on in leaps and bounds under van Basten, but I'd say they need a bit longer yet.

Not saying you won't see Holland reach the semis ahead of Italy - but Italy are undeniably better (at least on paper).

boogle
08-09-2005, 08:54
RE English managers, Big Sam, Curbishley and Psycho would all be reasonable choices (the 1st 2 i would say have proved they can cut it in the Prem), hopefully when Sven leaves (if not before the WC, then definately at the end of it), I hope we get an English manager as Scotland have come on in leaps and bounds since Walter Smith took charge

hairyman
08-09-2005, 09:06
Well, that's the problem, isn't it? Potential England managers:

Psycho
Big Sam
Alan Curbishley
Bryan Robson
Steve Mclaren

None of them have ever won anything (other than the odd league cup), none of them really scream "internaitonal class" at me.

We is stuck. :(

boogle
08-09-2005, 09:13
they don't have to have won anything (Van Basten hasn't really won anything as a manager has he?), they just have to have the tactical nous (Psycho is a bit too inexperienced IMHO), that rules out McLaren to me as he is part of the Sven problem, Robbo is a bit overhyped to me, so that really just leaves Big Sam and Curbs

wanderingblade
08-09-2005, 09:34
You can't win anything these days in football unless you manage a big club, none of those have been given the chance. Curbishly and Big Sam have managed minor miracles with Charlton and Bolton, they certainly deserve more consideration than McClaren. Peter Taylor has done a wonderful job with both Hull and the U-21s, Jewell and Pardew are both very good managers... providing we don't mind taking a risk, there's plenty of good candidates.

To be honest, I don't mind if the next one is foriegn as well - providing they're not French, German or from the Celtic Fringe. I cringe every time I see someone say Wenger.

hairyman
08-09-2005, 09:46
I cringe every time I see someone say Wenger.

Amen.

Would the players respect and respond to Curbishley or Allardyce? Or would it end up like Mike Bassett?

I reckon Stuart Pearce might be the best of the bunch, if only cos he'd send them out fired up.

Big_Bear_Scot
08-09-2005, 09:55
Amen.

Would the players respect and respond to Curbishley or Allardyce? Or would it end up like Mike Bassett?

I reckon Stuart Pearce might be the best of the bunch, if only cos he'd send them out fired up.

You guys might as well try an English manager, you have some World Class players who failed to beat a nation that is made up of players the Championship. Also if you look at the world rankings England is ranked 7th and N. Ireland is ranked 116.

What I found strange was how inept Lampard and Gerrad looked in the match, Should one of them be dropped for the next match ?

hairyman
08-09-2005, 10:00
Someone pointed out before that Beckham just bypasses them every time.. that was a good point.

One of them should be dropped, though. We simply can't play all three and have Roonaldo and Owen as well. I'd play 4-4-1-1 and have a holding midfield player in the middle with Gerard. Either Carrick or Hargreaves (who I think has never really had a fair chance.. always coming on for 5 or 10 mins). Ok, so it means we won't be playing our most skillful players, as Lampard will be dropped, but the team would work. Stick Becks on the right and tell him to stay there, put Cole or Downing or SWP on the left, and play Roonaldo behing Owen. Voila, instant world cup success.

wanderingblade
08-09-2005, 10:21
Lampard and Gerrard were playing in the same space with barely any ball to work with, of course they looked inept. One of them should have been dropped about a year ago, if not more, or a formation should have tailored around them specifically which is stupid.

But we do need a holding midfielder, Hargreaves might work, I'd prefer Parker. SWP shouldn't be shunted out of position to accomodate Beckham (even if we still need a left winger) and to be honest I'm beginning to have my doubts about Owen...

hairyman
08-09-2005, 10:36
Nah, get Owen match fit and he'll score regular again. The only reason Svenis has such a good qualifying record is that even when we played like a pile of poo Owen would always pop up and shin one in. He's underrated and vital.. he will absolutely bring you a goal every other game, especially in important matches, and that's priceless.

Lampard should've gone a while ago, you're right. He's good, but not as good as Stevie, and he'd be better off providing cover from the bench. Scott Parker is ok, but hasn't really played for a couple of seasons. Carrick and Hargreaves are both doing it week in week out for their clubs.

boogle
08-09-2005, 11:37
Gerrard never looks the part for England for a few reasons: He is not played to his strengths, which are the incisive runs he makes and balls he plays for Liverpool, he is allowed to do this because he has either Xabi Alonso or Didi Hamann to protect the defence allowing him to do that, plus as has been said the team is built around Beckham spraying balls beyond Gerrard and Lampard and finally, SG never seems to want to play for England that much (must be the fact that is has become a place where players get tapped up or unsettled)

Rik Valdis
08-09-2005, 12:06
Honestly I would love to see Beckham dropped, but that is more my irrational hatred of him than actual sense (same with Rooney). I think rooney's absolute inability to keep his temper is a real worry, we cannot afford to have him lose his temper with this frequency. Beckham absolutely must be moved out to the right make a more sensible shape, bring Hargreaves in the center with Gerrard and Cole on the left.

I will always stand by Owen, once he starts playting week in week out with Newcastle I am sure he will be back to his best. Rooney needs to slot in behind him in almost a 4-4-1-1, so long as he learns to control his temper, if he can't he wont be much use to anyone.

Can anyone tell me what the flags held by the NI supporters were, they looked like St George Crosses with a symbol in the middle?

Big_Bear_Scot
08-09-2005, 12:10
Can anyone tell me what the flags held by the NI supporters were, they looked like St George Crosses with a symbol in the middle?

I think it is the flag of Ulster, the Rangers supporters up here wave it about as well. The symbol in the middle is the Red Hand of Ulster.

It is seen as a symbol of Loyalist(Protestant) Northern Ireland.

hairyman
08-09-2005, 12:11
The symbol in the middle was the red hand of Ulster, the old (Norman?) coat of arms of Ulster that has subsequently been used for all sorts of things.

Hywel
08-09-2005, 12:12
Can anyone tell me what the flags held by the NI supporters were, they looked like St George Crosses with a symbol in the middle?

That would be the Northern Ireland flag.

Big_Bear_Scot
08-09-2005, 12:14
Here is a link that shows the flags that could be seen in Northern Ireland.

http://cain.ulst.ac.uk/images/symbols/flags.htm

wanderingblade
08-09-2005, 12:15
Honestly I would love to see Beckham dropped, but that is more my irrational hatred of him than actual sense (same with Rooney). I think rooney's absolute inability to keep his temper is a real worry, we cannot afford to have him lose his temper with this frequency. Beckham absolutely must be moved out to the right make a more sensible shape, bring Hargreaves in the center with Gerrard and Cole on the left.

I will always stand by Owen, once he starts playting week in week out with Newcastle I am sure he will be back to his best. Rooney needs to slot in behind him in almost a 4-4-1-1, so long as he learns to control his temper, if he can't he wont be much use to anyone.

Can anyone tell me what the flags held by the NI supporters were, they looked like St George Crosses with a symbol in the middle?

The Norn Iron flag is the St. George's Cross with the Red Hand of Ulster in the middle.

Rooney's temper is a sign of frustration - I wouldn't expect to see it in a winning England side. I'm fairly certain Red or some other Man Urinal fan can vouch that there are no displays of petulance at Old Trafford.

So as long as we win, its not a problem. As long as we play him correctly... we'll probably win.

I agree with that proposed formation, but there are some problems - it leaves Owen a bit isolated, he hates being a lone striker. He's still a great scorer, but I can't help but feel that if somebody else was offered the chance, he'd score the goals and probably add more to the team. Hopefully Owen playing weekly will get better again. I'm not at all convinced by Joe Cole on the left and think that Lampard would be a better choice than Gerrard.

But thats being finicky really, its a tried and tested and will work with reasonable success. Which Eriksson's other experiments don't seem to be doing.

Rik Valdis
08-09-2005, 12:41
I'm not at all convinced by Joe Cole on the left

neither am I to be honest but I can't think of anyone better.

I feel a little stupid for not guessing that that flag was the NI flag, I had just assumed that the green flag that there seemed to be far more of was the flag of NI.

boogle
08-09-2005, 12:52
Stuart Downing, Wayne Bridge (he worked really well with Ashely Cole beofre his injury)

wanderingblade
08-09-2005, 13:16
Better left wingers than Joe Cole:

Downing, Richardson, Bridge, Ashley Cole, Jerome Thomas, Darren Ambrose, Barry, Etherington, David James, Ade Akinbyi, Wayne Andrews, Rio Ferdinand, My Gran....

edit: Forgot Trevor Sinclair.

boogle
08-09-2005, 13:25
thats the problem all 4 of England's 1st choice midfielders are all Central Midfielders, we have no width (unless SWP plays and maybe KR, but who of the 3 DB/SG/FL do you drop to accomodate?, DB has the passing range, which was shown in the 1st half, but SG and FL have the energy, their downside is as i've said they need a protector playing behind them (Hamman/Alonso/Makelele))

wanderingblade
08-09-2005, 13:53
Go by form out of Lampard and Gerrard... which none of them really have been displaying recently. At the moment I'd go marginally with Gerrard. Maybe. I prefer Lampard when they're both in form.

Beckham is simply a long-ball merchant in elegant diguise most of the time. He retains possession cleverly when he has to, has a lot of experience and will run... but played from the beginning, its hoofball to midgets. Beckham-Crouch would be effective (if ugly), but elsewise, Beckham out. As an option from the bench, he'd be magnificent - his long balls would be killer on the break whil he's a cooler head who can keep possession in a corner in a defensive situation, I think he's got the nous now to just slow a game down and keep a team pinned down if we're winning. Not an aggressive option though.

Wiseman
08-09-2005, 14:24
----------------Owen-----------------------------
--------------------Rooney---------------------
Downing------------Gerrard------------------Wright Phillips
--------------------Carrick----------------------------
A. Cole-----Carragher------Terry----------G. Neville
-------------------Kirkland------------------------

That is truely a world class squad, though maybe trying Ferdinand at right back would be better then Gary Neville. Carrick would be brilliant behind Gerrard as he is just the sort of holding midfielder needed at the moment, and would allow Gerrard to make his forward runs. Rooney cant play as a lone striker and the sooner SGE realises this the better, but by playing rooney in the hole behind owen will give a powerful attacking force with downing and SWP support. Though against a side that isnt brilliant in the air, beckham should replace SWP and Crouch could take Owen's spot, or even try for a backline of 3 and play with 2 strikers
----------------Owen-----Crouch-------------------
--------------------Rooney---------------------
Downing------------Gerrard------------------Beckham
--------------------Carrick----------------------------
-------Carragher------Terry------Ferdinand
-------------------Kirkland------------------------

Whatever happens though dont play Gerrard and Lampard together as they both try to make forward runs but leave the midfield empty, Carrick gives the extra cover needed. Downing im still not entirely sure about on the left either, but when given the choice between him and J.Cole id choose downing everytime, though if we play wayne bridge at left back then Ashley cole could push up into a left mid style as he has shown he can push forward effectively.

The Pumpkin King
08-09-2005, 18:55
Better left wingers than Joe Cole:

Downing, Richardson, Bridge, Ashley Cole, Jerome Thomas, Darren Ambrose, Barry, Etherington, David James, Ade Akinbyi, Wayne Andrews, Rio Ferdinand, My Gran....

edit: Forgot Trevor Sinclair.

Genius! Totally hilarious, and probably true aswel!

Looking at the sensible, carefully considered suggestions for improving the team from people here I ask you this....can you imagine Sven doing the same with his backroom staff? I would guess the answer to that is a no :p

DaViEsW
08-09-2005, 19:33
England are currently packed with a bunch of prima-donnas with a clueless manager.

Most kids would die to play for England.

Wez
08-09-2005, 19:39
Well, I enjoyed that game a lot.

I think we should keep Sven. :p

I know where my allegiances lie when it comes to football. Fortunately, Germany automatically qualifies, so we can't screw up just yet. Actually, with our current form, I doubt we'd even qualify. I'm banking on Germany's uncanny ability to be boring and play a mediocre game, yet just win. We don't even have any nice divers any more: that seems to take a lot a way from the game. On pitch acrobatics may be against the spirit of the game (Unless England do it, in which case it's "tactical play") but are great to watch, especially combined with the opposing fans' reactions.

-Wez

Lardidar
08-09-2005, 19:43
Last night I was the first time I have ever watched England play and at the end of the game wish I was Irish.

If that is the performance level we can expect with Svens new 1-2-3-5-7-8 formation then just shoot me now.

Dump Beckham, Dump Owen, Dump Lampard - In Carrick/Parker, In Downing, In Hesky/Defoe.

Dump Sven - In Big Sam

Oh and one more thing - Come on scotland (I do hope you make it) I wish all home nations could.

Oh and well done Northen Ireland as bad as we played you should still get credit where its due.

ArtificerArmour
08-09-2005, 19:52
diddimz: kirkland...WTF? lets keep sven if your the altenative :p

anyway, yeah. sven manages england like real madrid - it seems external politics makes him pick players that are popular, rather than those who deserve it.

wanderingblade
08-09-2005, 20:31
Kirkland?! Hell, I just noticed that. Explain yourself Diddimz, Kirkland's pants!

Wiseman
09-09-2005, 00:42
yeh i know i forgot about Robinson!well replace kirkland with robinson then

Sai-Lauren
09-09-2005, 08:15
In Hesky
Dear god no :eek:

As a Liverpool fan, the only thing I can say about Heskey is that he was better than Collymore - just. :rolleyes:

I think Kirkland's been injured too often to decide whether he's good enough to play for England - hopefully he'll get a good run in the West Brom side and we'll get a decent look at him, but I'd certainly go with Robinson as first choice.

Wiseman
09-09-2005, 08:24
I missed the part about Hesky, id prefer to play anyone but him, hell put SVE as striker and he would do a better job!

Lardidar
09-09-2005, 12:51
I missed the part about Hesky, id prefer to play anyone but him, hell put SVE as striker and he would do a better job!

Your not playing him to be a goal scorer, your playing him for Mr Rooney to play off and Emile to just make sure we win balls in the air.

I think we need some one that is bigger than 2ft 4in in attack :)

boogle
09-09-2005, 18:00
Dear god no :eek:

As a Liverpool fan, the only thing I can say about Heskey is that he was better than Collymore - just. :rolleyes:

I think Kirkland's been injured too often to decide whether he's good enough to play for England - hopefully he'll get a good run in the West Brom side and we'll get a decent look at him, but I'd certainly go with Robinson as first choice.
Totally disagree with you on Heskey vs Collymore, Collymore actually scored more goals that Heskey, plus i woudl take the Collymore/Fowler partnership ove Owen/Heskey or even Cisse/Crouch/Morientes anyday