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View Full Version : Tzeentch is Chaos-a 3k army, hope to have LOTS of advice and suggestion



chaos-nightwing
27-10-2007, 09:03
Hello and thanks for helping me with the army. please forgive me for spelling mistake as i have only started speaking english about 2 years ago. This is a 3k tzeentch armythat i hope could be strong at magic and enough in combat so it can hold the enemy away from my sorcerers. The lists seems a bit to heavy charictered and im worried that my units could be easily wiped out by the enemy.

Lord of Chaos---457pts
-shield
-staff of change
-barded chaos steed
-MoT
-spell familliar

Lord of Chaos---433
-shield
-staff of change
-MoT
-spell familliar

Exalted Daemon---355
-Mot
-Spell destroyer

Marauders*32---249
-shields
-LA
-full command

Warriors of Chaos*24---410
-shields
-MoT
-full command

Chosen Knights*5---275
-MoT
-Standard
-Musician

Chariot of Tzeentch---140
-MoT

Warhounds of Chaos*6---36

Warhounds of Chaos*5---30

Warhounds of Chaos*5---30

Marauder Horsemen*5---125
-spears
-throwing axes/javilins
-shields
-full command

Chaos Furies*10---150

Screamers of Tzeentch*6---198

Still got 112pts left. I want to put another about 18-20 horrors in but don't have any space. I hope i can recieve alot of suggestion to mark a brilliant army list even though the suggestion might be harsh.

therisnosaurus
27-10-2007, 10:38
to start with, you can't take duplicate magic items like you have on your lords. One per army. I like the choice of the exalted daemon of tzeentch, though at 3000 points it might be worth switching him and a lord for a LoC. a staff lord and a LoC in one army will be unstoppable magically. I'd also recommend a bunch more units with the MOT, to get those power dice flowing, you want to make full use of those super spellcasters, and their meagre 4 dice each won't do it. you should have at least 3 units with MOT per lord level tzeentch character, making 8 dice, and 3 spell attempts a turn (2x3 dice, 1x2)

der_lex
27-10-2007, 10:40
Your list is a bit of a mess, and also illegal. You can't have more than one of any magic item in an army list, so you can't give both yopur characters staffs of change and spell familiars.

Also, are you still playing under 6th edition rules? Your unit sizes are very odd. I would also call them way too big...

Also, check out my entry about Tzeentch magic in the magic 101 thread for some general pointers. My comments on your other army list are also relevant for this one.

And don't take the Horrors. They're pretty much a waste of points.

chaos-nightwing
28-10-2007, 04:54
I dont understand what is bad sbout having big units. They can outnumber, have extra rank and thus beat enemy in closcombat easily. And want do u mean by 6th edition rules?

der_lex
28-10-2007, 10:20
The bad thing about having such large units is that your opponent will have a lot more untis than you do. All the ranks in the world won't save you when your opponents units have you boxed in from three sides, which is bound to happen when you field such a small force at 3k.

6th edition is the previous edition of warhammer, where 4 models were enough to make a rank. There's a new rulebook out, the 7th edition, in which there's a new rule that says that you need 5 models to make up a rank.

chaos-nightwing
29-10-2007, 09:49
i've got the 7th edition. I've read the article in magic 101. U said than in 2000pts 12-15 power dice is required. wat about in 3k. i've make a list of 3k that only have 16 power dice. is that enough. Do u think it is neccessary to put any marauders in or change them to chaos warriors withMOT so i can get all the power dice as possible? How many model do u think will be best to have in a unit a chaos worriors? And do u think it is nessassary to make the knight chosen or jus tnormal knight will do? Sorry for all the question.

der_lex
31-10-2007, 03:51
My 3000 point armies have had 18-20 power dice. My personal choice would be to have a couple of Marauder units (20-25) with light armour/shields, and a few smaller Chaos Warrior units with halberds, shields and the MoT. My preffered model counts for CW's are either 12 (two ranks of six) or 15 (three ranks of five). The first are purely flanking units that aren't supposed to be in combat for more than a round, the second are for prolonged combats.
As for knights, my rule of thumb is: if you stick a character in them, they don't need to be chosen. If they're an independent unit, Chosen is usually the best way to go.

chaos-nightwing
31-10-2007, 10:58
Here is my newly constructed army list.

Lord of Chaos----498
-MoT
-Staff of Change
-Golden Eye of Tzeentch
-Daemonic mount
-shield

Lord of Chaos----472
-MoT
-Skull of Kata
-Golden Eye of Tzeentch
-Dice of tzeentch
-shield
-spell familier

Exalted Daemon---355
-MoT
-Spell Destroyer

15 Chaos warrior--275
-full command
-MoT
-Shields

12 Chaos warrior--230
-full command
-MoT
-Shields

5 chosen Knights--295
-full command
-MoT

20 marauders--165
-shields and LA
-full command

5 Marauder horsemen--156
-shields
-Musician

10 chaos furies--150

Chariots--140
-MoT

6 Screamers of Tzeentch--198

total 3000pts
Power dice:16
Dispell dice:7

How do u think of this one? I was planning to use it in a strategy that i thought of. It was to put lots of imposible terrain to one side of the table to stuff it up. I can said that the terrain is hard cover and u can gain line of sight through it. I can cast my spell from behind the terrain as the enemy cannot shoot at me that well. My flyers are to go out with one of the champ to march block. the flyer are to destry the enemy cannon if they have any. The screamers and keep march block the enemy and use their slashing attack on them too. when the enemy reach my defence line. I can form a box to flank them and out number them it combat. Because the terrain i set up is like a line with one or two broken up open like this ---- ---- ----, so only one enemy unit can enter at a time. I can combat the enemy at the entrence. I dont know if this would work since ive never tryed it. Do u think the list need any improvement. How are u able to have 20 power dice in a 3000 pts army. U can only achieve that if u rarly have any troops. Please comment.

lector#1
31-10-2007, 11:22
id drop the exalted deamon and the 2nd lord of chaos.... they are to much points id say go with a bsb or exalted champion and a undevided sorcerer and then with extra points make more units of marauders it does seem kind of small for 3000 points. if you can max on marauders you should be more competative because you have more units to control your opponent because the less you have the more you have to deal with and chaos are already out numbered and you dont (i know from experience) want to spend lots of points in warriors or tzeentch lords. max out your marauders they are the best unit in chaos because they are cheap and are like your best core units because warriors are too expensive

der_lex
31-10-2007, 13:44
I agree on not getting the exalted daemon... listed the reasons why in the magic tactica, so won't repeat them here.

I disagree on the 'don't spend any points on warriors and lords'. In a magic-heavy Tzeentch army, you'll need all the power dice you can get. That means you need characters and marks. (That's how I got 20 PD...but, after looking through my lists, that wasn't exactly my most effective one. Most of my other 3K lists had 17-18, but did all include a Hellcannon, which is a major points sink (but worth it) ). Tzeentch lists can do fine if they're small, but only if you play defensively and don't rush in a full strength.
I agree that two lords might be a bit much, though. Might want to drop the lord and the daemon and get a BSB and a couple of exalted champs of Tzeentch instead.

Some little things:

- Put the lord with the staff and eye on a disc. He needs the mobility, not a fighty überhorse

- You have multiples of a magic item again (golden eye)...which is still illegal

- Give your Warriors halberds or an extra hand weapon, or they won't get enough hits in

- One unit of fliers is usually enough...personally, I'd drop the furies for another marauder block

- Get two or so units of 5 warhounds to shield your troops from missile fire

- Give your horsemen Flails, not shields. Shields won't keep them alive in any way, whereas flails will help them get a big hit in on a flank charge.

- Bring at least one dispel scroll. You'll be glad you did

- No need to max out on magic items otherwise. Giving your lord the staff/eye combo is always a good thing, but otherwise you don't have to load up your other characters. Exalted champs hit hard enough, and these have magic to back them up. Sometimes those points are simply better spent on troops.

lector#1
31-10-2007, 14:53
yes that is what i was saying as to not spend half your points on lords in a tzeentch army id say use magic items on your lord but on yor champions id say go with great weapons or additional hand weapons. your chapions are their to add power to your units not take your lords position on the field i have always run with a lord (nurgle) black maul, armor of damnation mounted in a unit of chosen and then no matter what other characters i took they would have minimal points spent on magic items so that way i could max out my marauders and marauders do supprisingly well no matter what mark yo take.

der_lex
31-10-2007, 15:27
True, but a well-constructed Tzeentch army plays very differently than the other Chaos armies out there. Your characters are there to give you the power dice you need to dominate the magic phase... and then they're there to help beat the snot out of the remains of the opposing army once it gets to you.

The all-marauder army is a valid army, but it's not the way you want to go with Tzeentch, where you need your Marked units. And Chaos Warriors can be great, when you use them properly...but let's not start up that ancient discussion again here.

chaos-nightwing
01-11-2007, 08:07
I've got question here.What is BSB?
The reason i take my Daemon is because so that i can give him spell destryer to stuff up enemy spell and i also get to despell one spell each turn. Isnt that what despell scroll os about. but hte spell destroyer is batter so thats why i take the daemon-1st power dice, 2nd destryed. Can u tell me why. Is it better to have two aspiring champ with MOT and Shields and both mounted on chaos steed? I fear that if only one group of flyer are put in, the enemy will target all the shoots on them and not on my lord. and if they all die, thats going to caust me 200 pts. so i put an extra furies unit to take the cannon and the screamers for aschers.

Im not disagreeing with ur suggestion, just want ot know why.
And do u think of my "stuffing up one side of the table" stratagy would work good or i shold march all my units out and fight the enemy? I was planing to wait for the enemy to come so i can round them up since that one of them can only pass through the "tunnel at one time.

Damian
01-11-2007, 10:52
A BSB is a Battle Standard Bearer. I agree with der_lex, especially about giving the warriors halberds or xtra hand weapons. How about giving the 12 man unit halberds and making them chosen, 13 strength 5 attacks is scary. I also definately agree that your lord should be on a disc, not a daemonic mount or horse. Also, maybe try and find the points for a second warrior chariot, it can give you another power dice, hits hard and I find they generally work better in pairs. If one gets destroyed by a cannon or bolt thrower or something then you still have another one.

I don't know if I just misunderstood, but the spell destroyer is one use in the battle only, not once per turn, or were you meaning dispell one spell each turn with dispell dice? I'd rather just take 2 dispell scrolls.

If you really want two units of flyers, why not just take two units of screamers as this is a tzeentch army and they're more fluffy.

der_lex
01-11-2007, 21:55
Chaosnightwing -

Spell destroyer is good, but not worth taking an exalted daemon for. The problem with the daemon is that it's very expensive, and rather fragile...that 5+ ward save isn't going to do much against shooting. Besides, if you put your lord on a disc, you already have a flying spellcaster who can help out in combat if necessary. That's also why you don't really need that second flyer unit... your lord can be your backup war machine hunter if need be. There shouldn't be much need, though...Screamers are surprisingly tough and can take quite a beating from missile fire (they are a 0-1 choice though, so you can't take a second unit)
Taking two hero-level characters instead will give your other unit more support, and will further spread out your spellcasting capabilities. No need to send flyers after archers if you can just blast them to bits with magic...

Also not that both spell destroyer and a dispel scroll are one-shot item...once you use them, they're gone. Your reply makes it seem like you think you can use it every magic phase, which isn't true.

As for your strategy...I'm very much in favour of playing Tzeentch defensively: that's to say, hang back, blast the opponents units with spells and force him to come to you, so you can engage him at a time and place of your choosing. Charing forward is great for every other Chaos army out there, but not so much for Tzeentch. You deny yourself the greatest asset of the mark (a large amount of long distance damage spells) that way.

chaos-nightwing
02-11-2007, 09:22
What do u thick of the idea of putting all tzentch wizard in a army. Do u think it is good or should i put soccerer in the army so i can use spell from fire, death, or shadow?

chaos-nightwing
02-11-2007, 09:54
Here is a new list from all the suggestion given

Lord of Chaos----493
-MoT
-Staff of Change
-Golden Eye of Tzeentch
-Disc of Tzeentch
-shield

Lord of Chaos----479
-MoT
-Skull of Kata
-Dice of tzeentch
-enchanted shield
-spell familier

Aspiring Champ---218
-MOT
-Chaos steed
-shield
-Power familier

Aspiring Champ---218
-MOT
-Chaos steed
-shield
-Power Familier

15 Chaos warrior--305
-full command
-MoT
-Shields
-Helberds

12 Chaos warrior--254
-full command
-MoT
-Shields
-Helberds

5 chosen Knights--295
-full command
-MoT

20 marauders--185
-shields and LA
-full command
-Flails

5 Marauder horsemen--156
-Flails
-Musician

Chariots--140
-MoT

6 Screamers of Tzeentch--198

Total 2801
Powe dice 20
Dispell dice10

I've still have 199 pts to spend on. I was thinking to get some more marauders or another soccerer to get more spell caster. I dont know what i should get? Please help, Thanks a million.
And what of this list? any improvment?

lector#1
02-11-2007, 10:15
i dont think the second lord is a good choice thts way to many points drop him and then add in a few chariots

patataman
02-11-2007, 12:31
Again...you can´t have multiples of a magic item (power familiar) -_-

der_lex
02-11-2007, 12:53
Not too sure about the second lord either. I'd probably go for an exalted champion myself, and add a couple of marked units (chariots, warriors, knights) to flesh out your army a bit, but still give you power dice.

The Skull of Katarn isn't that useful, IMO... but others will disagree with me on this. You have to get that multiple magic item thing out of your system ;)

You might want to give your characters halberds as well...cheap way of making them hit extra hard when they get into combat.

As for having two aspiring champions...the exalted upgrade is so cheap, that it's definitely worth it. If you do keep one aspiring champion, give him a battle standard...which is basically the only real reason for a Chaos army to take an aspiring champ over an exalted champ anyway.

One thing I can definitely advise you to take is two or three units of 5 Warhounds. Fast, cheap, and will screen your more valuable units from incoming missile fire.

Dicey
02-11-2007, 12:59
A good option to consider is a unit of horrors, the bound spell can be invaluble. also the banner of (Wrath?) (bound magic missile banner) is worth considering.

getting out a couple of bounds spells first is always god

chaos-nightwing
03-11-2007, 06:02
Isnt horror really expensive and bad as well, since they only have the profile of a "standard Gnoblare?"

chaos-nightwing
03-11-2007, 06:23
And By dropping one of the lord of chaos, into a exalted champ, i will have less spellcaster and only have one LV4 is that godd or bad. If i drop it, do i put in more chariots with MOT or more chaos warriors or kights?
Do i have enough flyers? Im worried that the will get shot to death fairly quickly.

Little Aaad
03-11-2007, 23:20
OK, use 1 lord is a definatly... I would recomend horrors not for their statline, but for their bound spells... look them up...

chaos-nightwing
04-11-2007, 06:17
This is the update of the list from all the advises. I havent put any horrors in is not because i dont trust them or dont like the suggestion, i just dont have any points and dont know how to use them.

Lord of Chaos----493
-MoT
-Staff of Change
-Golden Eye of Tzeentch
-Disc of Tzeentch
-shield

Exalted Champ---238
-MOT
-Chaos steed
-shield
-Power familier

Exalted Champ---222
-MOT
-shield
-2 dispell scrolls

Aspiring Champ---225
-MOT
-Banner of Wrath
-Battle Standard

15 Chaos warrior--305
-full command
-MoT
-Shields
-Helberds

12 Chaos warrior--254
-full command
-MoT
-Shields
-Helberds

5 chosen Knights--295
-full command
-MoT

20 marauders--185
-shields and LA
-full command
-Flails

5 Marauder horsemen--156
-Flails
-Musician

2 Chariots--280(not in a unit)
-MoT

6 Screamers of Tzeentch--198

6 war hounds-36

5 war hounds-30

5 war hounds-30

Total 2947
Powe dice 18
Dispell dice 8 (2dispell scrolls)

This is my new army. with 53 points spare. I got no idea what to put in since i basically have everything. Im not sure is this better or not. It seems to be weak at dispelling so i put two scrolls to help. Although it got two power dice less than what it should have, i think it might just be fine, but not to sure.
Please help, and suggest way to make the list better. Thanks

chaos-nightwing
04-11-2007, 06:59
sorry the M horsemen is only 81 pts so i've got 128pts spare now

Damian
04-11-2007, 18:47
What about a beast herd. I use one in my 2000 list and have always found it invaluable.

der_lex
04-11-2007, 23:20
Wouldn't recommend the Horrors myself...awful statlines for what they cost, and their bound spells aren't too impressive, really.

I don't play with beasts myself, so I can't advise you on that.

Personally, I'd drop one Screamer (a unit of 5 has always done fine for me) and one Warhound from that unit of 6, and use the spare points to get another marked chariot, and halberds for your Lord and exalted champs, for when they need to get good hits in (you can always switch to handweapon/shield when they need to go on the defensive).

chaos-nightwing
04-11-2007, 23:56
so u mean that i have 3 chariots in the army?
Do u think i will need more Marauders for shields since i only have 20?
And by doing ur advise, i will have 19 power dice with 52pts spare to use. What should i put in?
Is 3 Chariots a little too many?

der_lex
05-11-2007, 00:54
I personally don't think three is to many. I personally only ever field one, but that's simply because I only have one chariot model :D It might be a good idea to put your Exalted champ on foot in the third chariot, to make it pack a little extra punch (I personally like giving an exalted in a chariot a berserker sword, but I can imagine you not wanting to drop your power familiar or your scrolls for that).

As for the extra points, you could always add some Marauders to your unit, I guess. At this point, I think it's best to simply try a few games with your army first and see how it plays, though.

chaos-nightwing
06-11-2007, 09:17
So this is the newly up dated one. I'm going to play a few try out games with others if all of u think its pretty good. Here is the list and always feel free to make any critizism!

Lord of Chaos----493
-MoT
-Staff of Change
-Golden Eye of Tzeentch
-Disc of Tzeentch
-shield

Exalted Champ---238
-MOT
-Chaos steed
-shield
-Power familier

Exalted Champ---222
-MOT
-shield
-2 dispell scrolls

Aspiring Champ---225
-MOT
-Banner of Wrath
-Battle Standard

15 Chaos warrior--305
-full command
-MoT
-Shields
-Helberds

12 Chaos warrior--254
-full command
-MoT
-Shields
-Helberds

5 chosen Knights--295
-full command
-MoT

23 marauders--185
-shields and LA
-full command
-Flails

5 Marauder horsemen--81
-Flails
-Musician

3 Chariots--420(not in a unit)
-MoT

5 Screamers of Tzeentch--165

6 war hounds-36

5 war hounds-30

5 war hounds-30

Total 2947
Powe dice 19
Dispell dice 8 (2dispell scrolls)