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logan054
27-10-2007, 10:42
Well I decided to take up my empire army again i decided to see what survived a clear out of my old room by my mum, so i will list what i have below and really wondering what the best way to continue with it is.

20 Halberdiers
30 handgunners
10 crossbowmen
15 Flagellents
3 great cannons
2 mortars
2 hell blasters
only enough crew for 4 machines
16 greatswords (well wolf on foot)
6 archers
5 swordsmen
witch hunter (so could be a warrior priest)
2 warrior priests
1 hero
1 knights panther grand master (i guess the units got thrown out :( )
1 mounted elector count
1 hockland long rifle
1 repeater hand gun (both of these are from the old warwagon)

lack0fbettername
27-10-2007, 12:59
How many points are you going for?

Not knowing i would suggest A block of 25-30 swordsmen, and free company detachment.

Right now your only block of state troops is 20 halberders, though fluffy they are the worst option as far as state troops go. Adding in 1 or 2 big blocks of swordsmen w/ detachments would get you up to the models needed for a 2250 list.

After that some knights and/or fast cav (outriders/pistolers) then i think your set.

logan054
27-10-2007, 14:09
well i think im going to go for a 2k list to begin with however i think i will expand upon this later on, still im not so sure on what characters to use in the army, i barely used them with the old army book (most of my models are actually the old metal ones).

So really the best add on would be say a 20 swordsmen (for now), a deatchment or two, a box of knights and a wizard or two?

Not so sure on the outriders, i cant see that multi shot and moving is going to be all that effective.

lack0fbettername
27-10-2007, 18:06
I think a 2K list needs alteast 2-3 big(25+) blocks of empire infantry as its core. After that yes a few units of knights & warmachines will go along way.

As far as charicters
The arch lector is i think widely considered the best as you get a little of everything

After that, i would say add a BSB, then other charicters to fit you style.

logan054
27-10-2007, 20:26
well im not sure if i will use a arch lector (but found a sister of battle model perfect for it), i have heard plenty of things making him sound abit abusive, ok well i guess tomorrow i will see what i can get for around 60/70 (including a army book).

aleast however i can bulk up the greatswords for free (i can sneak them if the mail order to replace the missing arms thrown out!)

brettz123
30-10-2007, 01:03
I would get 3 blocks of 25 swordsmen. I like to have 10 halberdiers as detachments for each of those. That is my "core" setup at 2000 points (not actually all my core choices though).

Personally I like having fast cav so you might want to look into using pistoliers or outriders.

Captain on Pegasus is pretty nice too.

Kahadras
30-10-2007, 13:06
I'd look to integrate as much of your old stuff as you can into your new army (basicaly just to save money).

To start off with you look like you've got plenty of characters. You've got a mounted Elector count which can work nicely as a mounted captain in lower point games. Your multiple Warrior Priests will help you in the magic phase and can lead your combat units.

In terms of combat units you're lacking so I'd go for a couple of units of swordsmen (at least 20 strong with a warrior priest in each unit). Adding in a unit of Greatswords and Flagellants would nicely round off your troops (2 units of 20 swordsmen, two 10 man detachments of halbardiers, 16 Greatswords and 15 Flagellants).

The 30 Handgunners can be split up into 3 units to give you a lot of ranged firepower. Artillerywise I'd take a Helblaster and a cannon or two. About the only other thing this army needs is movement. A small unit of knights could provide this and would probably see the army heading towards 2000 points...

Elector count + magic items, equipment and horse

Warrior Priest + magic items and equipment

Warrior Priest + magic items and equipment

Witch Hunter (Warrior Priest) + magic items and equipment

20 Swordsmen + FC
+10 Halbardiers

20 Swordsmen + FC
+10 Halbardiers

10 Handgunners

10 Handgunners

10 Handgunners

15 Flagellants

16 Greatswords

5 Knights

2 Cannon

1 Helblaster volley gun

Kahadras

brettz123
30-10-2007, 14:08
@Kahadras

Your list looks interesting. I was wondering a couple things though. How do you do with anti-magic and how long do your flagellants usually last in combat. I have been thinking about using some flagellants but am not sure how I feel about them being frenzied and was just wondering what your experience has been with them? Thanks.

Prince Sairion
30-10-2007, 16:32
Go for the nastiest empire army out there!

Arch lector (optional altar) couple of priests and a battle standard.

Two big units of swords, 2 flag-bags, 1 spear, 1 greatsword.

Then finish off with guns and detachments.

If it doesn't hate something, it's stubborn, unbreakable or can kill you from a distance, a nice religious crusade.

EvC
30-10-2007, 16:44
Should be able to give you a 1000 point game against my new Lizzies pretty soon to help you get used to the fellas :D

Kahadras
30-10-2007, 18:18
@Kahadras

Your list looks interesting. I was wondering a couple things though. How do you do with anti-magic and how long do your flagellants usually last in combat. I have been thinking about using some flagellants but am not sure how I feel about them being frenzied and was just wondering what your experience has been with them? Thanks.

Seen as this is a sugested list for the OP I'm guesstimating the effectiveness of having 3 Warrior priests for magic defence but it gives you a pretty effective 5 dispel dice which should be high enough for 2000 points.

Flagellants are a great tar pit IMHO and can hold up even the toughest enemy unit for several turns. That reads awesome in my book but my Empire army is taking a slightly different tack (mobility) so Flagellants don't have much of a place within it.

Kahadras

Shank
02-11-2007, 01:20
I don't want Empire players to panic or anything, but have you guys "seen" the High Elf book or read some of the rumors for the new VC book? Im sure you guys have, and they scare me. Regular State Troops (including Greatswords) are going to be swept away by the new High Elf book. And my loveable Flaggellants are a mere speed bump to them (Frenzy? You mean I have to charge that unit of HE spearmen of 25, and they go first and attack in 3 ranks??!!). Not to mention every single one (well almost) of their units can take a magic banner. Unless you take a General or BSB, no Empire Infantry can. How bad is that rule!
My point is, even though a Empire army with 3 units of 30 swordsman with detachments looks great and is fluffy, a High Elf Player will melt you with Repeater Bolthrowers, then humiliate you in close combat. Guys, it is not a bad thing to bulk up on Tanks, grease the wheels on that War Altar and bring as much fire power as you can!!

WillFightForFood
02-11-2007, 02:16
While the HE are better on a model per model basis (your low level troops vs. his low level troops), they are not better on a point per point basis (similiarly costed models and units). Consider that hypothetical fight between a full unit of spearmen and a full unit of Greatswords. 4+ to hit, 4+ to wound, 4+ save for the Swordsmen. That's 1/2*1/2*1/2 or 1/8. It takes approximately eight attacks from a spearmen to be pretty sure of getting that one wound. On the flip side the Greatswords hit on a 4+, Wound on a 2+. Meaning that it's 1/2*5/6 or 5/12. So just over two attacks from a greatswordsman to kill a spearmen. So consider if the both are in a 5x4 formation and the Greatswords charge. 2 kills for the Spearmen, 1 for the Greatswords, Greatswords lose by 2 and take a break test on an 8. If the Spearmen charge it's 1 kill a piece and a push. Spearmen cost nine points and greatswordsmen cost ten. Not a bad difference, especially since greatswords would strike last in the secound round of combat anyway. Of course that's not supposing a countercharge or support fire from a detachment.

Flaggellants are considerably less powerful in that sense, but then they are unbreakable, and that more than makes up for it. You would send them up against phoenix guard or white lions, where your opponent is limited in the number of kills he can make. Any place where there are few attacks made at high strength.

It really doesn't matter if their whole army can take a magic banner because they can only take one of each.

My point is, while the opponent may have better you will have more. The power of Empire is in its footsloggers, knights, and artillery. Don't forget that.

Actually the advice Shank is giving is the worst advice possible. I've been playing for a number of years now and I rarely see bolt throwers make their points firing against line level troops. Suppose the repeater thrower kills four swordsmen with one shot (unlikely). He will have to do that four times to pay for the thrower. They make their points against large, high point value targets. The Steam Tank is a large target that will lose its only save against a bolt thrower.

Shank
02-11-2007, 23:43
I don't know about "the worst advice possible". Maybe not the best, but not the worst.
The only problem with your comparing Greatswords to High Elf Spearmen is that Greatswords are our "best" foot troops. Spearmen are High Elf core. Put Greatswords up against Swordmasters, White Lions, Phoenix Guard and I think the results will change.
The Tank causes impact hits (as does War Altar). This will ease the pain of the Elves always strike first rule. It is hard to strike first while being rolled over by a tank. Use these in conjunction with other units when you charge. See where I am going?
The tank is also easy to move around so you should be able to hide the beast until you want to charge. And if not, 50/50 chance to wound the tank if you hit it with a bolt thrower.
Your "footsloggers" cannot go it alone.....

logan054
03-11-2007, 14:50
Should be able to give you a 1000 point game against my new Lizzies pretty soon to help you get used to the fellas :D

yeah sounds good mate, sorry for late reply my internet is being screwie (damn sky!)

@Kahadras - looks like interesting list, not sure about the lack of light cav however i have to say i like it for the most as it requires me spending hardly any money :D i will go about making a rough list later on, yours seems like a fair basis however :)

@Shank - I cant see what empire players have to worry about when it comes to High elves, you can just blow them to bits, i dont even think the dragons will be a major issue to be fair, swordsmen should still do well against HE as they have the 4+ save (however it will effect detachments unless you go for shooting). On a side not i dont think any person in his right mind would use infantry of any kind against swordmasters! me personally i will either drop a mortar or hellblaster on them :) (shame the hellblaster was so nerfed!)

I have to say i dont think a steam tank is going to see the light of day in my army, i think its far to overused and really i dont think considering how rare it is every army in the empire can have about 5

@ WillFightForFood - well i had a few trial games in smaller battles with my empire, i think next time i play skaven im going gunline (well 500pts sad list)

anyways thanks for all your replies, has been helpful

Kahadras
03-11-2007, 17:59
@Kahadras - looks like interesting list, not sure about the lack of light cav however i have to say i like it for the most as it requires me spending hardly any money i will go about making a rough list later on, yours seems like a fair basis however


Just drop in some pistoliers then as you should have a free slot at 2000 points. I did a quick workout of the list that I was advocting before (with some fast cavalry included)...

General of the Empire + full plate, lance, shield and barded warhorse = 122p

Warrior priest + heavy armour and shield = 96p

Warrior priest + heavy armour and shield = 96p

Warrior priest + heavy armour and shield = 96p

20 Swordsmen + FC = 145p
+10 Halbardiers = 50p

20 Swordsmen + FC = 145p
+10 Halbardiers = 50p

10 Handgunners = 80p

10 Handgunners = 80p

10 Handgunners = 80p

15 Flagellants = 150p

5 Knights + FC = 155p

16 Greatswords + FC = 190p

5 Pistoliers + musician = 97p

2 Cannon = 200p

1 Helblaster volley gun = 110p

Total = 1942p

That leaves a total of about 60 points to spend on magic items (a little low IMO but you can drop a Halbardier detachment to give you a boost to around 110 or a handgunner unit to get to 140). I'd probably go for a few simple magic tricks here and there.

The Warbanner would be a good idea on the knights to give them that extra punch in close combat. I'd also look at getting a couple of bound spells to boost your magic phase. The Silver horn and the Doomfire ring would be good buys IMHO. Lastly I'd pick up a small magic weapon for one of your Warrior priests like a Sword of might. That adds up to 105 points of magic items. Minus a detachment of halbardiers gives you a grand total of 1997.

The general tactics would be to stick the General in the knight unit and hold it back as a counter attacking force. Form a strong center with your swordsmen and greatswords (each unit led by a Warrior priest). Cover the flanks of your main infantry blocks with your HBVG and handgunner units. Use your pistoliers to flank the enemy or chase away his flanking units. Use the Flagellants to tar pit one of his good units and keep it out of the game for a few turns.

The best thing about this army is that it should cost you somewhere in the region of sixty quid to set up (4 Empire state troops and 1 Pistoliers box sets)

Kahadras

logan054
04-11-2007, 15:39
http://warseer.com/forums/fantasy-army-lists/110884-2000pts-empire-list-post2061831.html#post2061831

I actually posted a list here using yours a kinda basis, doing the list will require some spending however i dont see it needing me to spend a arm and leg :)

The Highlander
05-11-2007, 21:43
And as for the HE, there bolt throwers will be useless against the empire (most empire genrals could hit them with a cannon by turn 2) and the handguns and crossbows can punish there infanty. I would take 10 HE sprearmen V 25 empire with detachment.

Shank
06-11-2007, 00:53
You can't rely completely that your cannons will take out his Bolt Throwers. It just isnt that easy.
-logan: Yes, Empire will do fine against the High Elves if they go Heavy on the shooting. My point is if you want to try and beat them in the Close Combat phase
-Kahadras: If your army general is mounted on a horse, It is better to take a Grandmaster. For 23 more points you get better stats and a unit of Knights Immune to Psyhe. The Empire General is almost as useful as the Empire Master Engineer....

brettz123
06-11-2007, 04:33
You can't rely completely that your cannons will take out his Bolt Throwers. It just isnt that easy.
-logan: Yes, Empire will do fine against the High Elves if they go Heavy on the shooting. My point is if you want to try and beat them in the Close Combat phase
-Kahadras: If your army general is mounted on a horse, It is better to take a Grandmaster. For 23 more points you get better stats and a unit of Knights Immune to Psyhe. The Empire General is almost as useful as the Empire Master Engineer....

Actually he is rather good (and cheap) if you are not taking too much cav. Just stick him in with your foot sloggers.

Kahadras
06-11-2007, 08:27
If your army general is mounted on a horse, It is better to take a Grandmaster. For 23 more points you get better stats and a unit of Knights Immune to Psyhe. The Empire General is almost as useful as the Empire Master Engineer....

Nonsense. The Grandmaster is much more limited than the General in what he can take and the battlefield roll he can perform. In terms of usefulness I rate the Grand master far less than the General TBH.

Kahadras

Spoonie
06-11-2007, 22:52
Much more limited in what he can take? No Runefang or pistols is all I can think of. As for the battlefield role, he was saying specifically if you want your general mounted and riding with knights a grandmaster is a better option, and I'm inclined to agree. The general certainly has his place, however.

Kahadras
07-11-2007, 06:22
Much more limited in what he can take? No Runefang or pistols is all I can think of.

No Runefang, no pistol, no great weapon, no extra hand weapon, no longbow, no option to to be on foot, no option to rise a Pegasus, no option to ride a Griffon, no option to not bother taking any armour so you can load up on magic armour, no option not to take knights. I could go on I suppose.


As for the battlefield role, he was saying specifically if you want your general mounted and riding with knights a grandmaster is a better option, and I'm inclined to agree.

I'm a point pinching miser who resents the fact of having to spend any more than he does do on characters. The general is fine in the knights. He isn't as optimal as the Grand master but he can be moved to other units without compromising his efficency.

Kahadras

BenK
08-11-2007, 00:31
HE Spearmen vs Empire swordsmen: assuming a frontage of five and ranks, HEs get an average of 2 wounds and the swordsmen reply with on average 2/3 of a wound. That's not bad considering HEs cost %150 more and are as vulnerable to missile fire.

Now, of course, if the unit of swordsmen happens to have a detatchment which gets off a charge they'll slaughter the HE unit with ranks and outnumber.

Shank
08-11-2007, 02:58
-BenK, your math confuses me. HE Spearmen get 16 attacks if you have 20 (plus champ). On average, you will kill more than 2 swordsman. And how do you figure you would kill 2 or 3 HE in return?? You need 4's to hit and wound. And they get a +5 armor save. And Detach will have a tough time with the ASF rule. Empire State Troops will have major problems with these "new" HE.

Kahadras- Again, if you are mounting your General on a "WarHorse" to put in your Knights, the Grandmaster is the way to go. On foot or Griffon obviously you have to take a general. And if you are a miser when it comes to points, you will see that the Grandmaster is a much better option. Empire General with all the equip a Grandmaster comes with standard is 122 points while Grandmaster is 145. Plus you get much better stats and a unit of Knights immune to physe. Wait.... I think I said this already.....

WillFightForFood
08-11-2007, 03:23
-BenK, your math confuses me. HE Spearmen get 16 attacks if you have 20 (plus champ). On average, you will kill more than 2 swordsman. And how do you figure you would kill 2 or 3 HE in return?? You need 4's to hit and wound. And they get a +5 armor save. And Detach will have a tough time with the ASF rule. Empire State Troops will have major problems with these "new" HE.

No, do the math. He's right. WS 4 vs WS 4, STR 3 vs TOUGH 3, 4+ Save for the Swordsmen. So, 1/2*1/2*1/2 = 1/8. So for 16 attacks, two wounds ~ on average. Of course there's no guarantees it's not more or less.

BenK
08-11-2007, 04:14
"2/3" means "two thirds" not "two to three" :)

Detachments aren't too worried about ASF, remember the spears don't get rank attacks to the flank; depending on unit depth this will translate into 5/16 wounds on average - not enough to negate the loss of three ranks and a flank charge bonus to combat resolution.

Now, things like swordmasters are much scarier - but then if super-elite infantry can't roll through block infantry, then elite-infantry simply has no function in the game at all. Swordmasters, Chaos chosen, Iron Breakers etc. should be able to mess up Empire soldiers in combat; otherwise what's the point of those troops? They're not fast enough to play an trouble-shooter role like cavalry or flyers, and they're too expensive to be content in adding static CR.

Kahadras
08-11-2007, 09:42
Kahadras- Again, if you are mounting your General on a "WarHorse" to put in your Knights, the Grandmaster is the way to go. On foot or Griffon obviously you have to take a general. And if you are a miser when it comes to points, you will see that the Grandmaster is a much better option. Empire General with all the equip a Grandmaster comes with standard is 122 points while Grandmaster is 145. Plus you get much better stats and a unit of Knights immune to physe. Wait.... I think I said this already.....

So let me get this straight. If I want to save points on my general I should spend more? His stats are only marginaly better (the +1 attack really being the only one that counts) but really at the end of the day you don't want to be getting into a combat with your general where the better stats count for much. Likewise Immune from Psychology is nice but it ties your Grandmaster to the unit for it to work, is only really useful against certain armies and has a drawback as well.

The fact of whether a General on a horse or a Grandmaster is better is a worthwhile debate however statements like this....


The Empire General is almost as useful as the Empire Master Engineer....

...are a bit stupid IMHO.

Kahadras

Shank
08-11-2007, 12:30
Your right, I shouldn't put the Engineer down like that....

Kahadras
08-11-2007, 13:40
Your right, I shouldn't put the Engineer down like that....

I must agree that your arguement is faultless (probably due to the lack of one). Grandmaster fail primarily because there is only really one use for them i.e leading a unit of knights. That's about it. Even the Engineer is more flexible. No wonder you like them. :p

Kahadras

Shank
08-11-2007, 22:58
The only reason I can think of to take a Empire General is because he is cheap. He offers almost nothing else to the army. But lets be honest, the Grandmaster now is my second choice anyway when I am writing up my list. The Arch Lector is head and shoulders above them all. He offers the most bang for his buck.
Come to think of it, I have never used a Empire General since the new book came out. I have used Engineers a few times. I guess I do really like them better!!

Kahadras
09-11-2007, 07:27
The only reason I can think of to take a Empire General is because he is cheap. He offers almost nothing else to the army.

So wait a moment the General offers nothing but cheapness while the Grandmaster offers so much more in what? A couple of better stats and a special rule that only works if he joins a certain unit? Also noting that you have to take a knight unit to get access to him.

I agree that the Arch lector is a good buy but he can start getting stupidly expencive as well if you mount him on a War Altar and start giving him magical items.

Kahadras

Shank
09-11-2007, 23:24
The General wouldn't be so bad if there was good 50 point banner for State Troops to take. Griffon Banner at 55 points is just so annoying.
If I told you there was a magic sword that costed 23points and gave your general +1WS, +1I, +1A and made one of your knight units immune to psyhe, wouldn't you take it every time? That is the difference in cost between mounted Empire General on Horse, fully equiped, compared to a Grandmaster. What I should be saying is the "Empire General on a Horse" is useless. Don't like him much on foot either. I go with the Arch Lector on foot first.
And for 100 points, the War Altar is the Best Chariot in the game. It is simply giving my opponents fits!

Kahadras
10-11-2007, 00:09
The General wouldn't be so bad if there was good 50 point banner for State Troops to take. Griffon Banner at 55 points is just so annoying.


That's how it was intended. Still there are good banners for under 50 points like the War banner and the Standard of Arcane Warding.


If I told you there was a magic sword that costed 23points and gave your general +1WS, +1I, +1A and made one of your knight units immune to psyhe, wouldn't you take it every time? That is the difference in cost between mounted Empire General on Horse, fully equiped, compared to a Grandmaster.

Depends? Do I have to spend another 115 points to be allowed to field it? Lets look at it another way. Do I lose any points for fielding my General in the Dawn armour? The answer, no. Does the Grandmaster? Yes because his full plate is already figured into his points cost. Therefore he has to buy his full plate then the Dawn armour on top of it. As I see it the GM already has disadvantages built into his character.

Say I decide to field my General with the Dawn armour. He gains a rerollable save and still works out cheaper than the Grandmaster. I could outfit him with the Enchanted Shield and Sword of Might giving him a better save than the Grandmaster and a better strength and again it works out cheaper.

Kahadras

Spoonie
10-11-2007, 08:01
Depends? Do I have to spend another 115 points to be allowed to field it?

Assuming your talking about the unit of knights you need, that doesn't really have any bearing on the conversation. The entire point is if he's going to be in a unit of knights on a horse then the grandmaster is a better option, in my opinion. Being a grandmaster is like getting a mail-in rebate for putting your general with knights - it's not like you'd even think about taking him any other time anyways.

Aside from that, if you assume either is going with a unit of knights, it just depends on which advantages you think are more important, and what items you're after. Personally, I wanted my general to run with knights, and I decided to try out the Laurels of Victory, with a Holy Relic for a little protection. Since I'd almost certainly want full plate, lance and shield with that set up, I only end up paying 23 points for some pretty good stat bumps and immune to psych on one of my main hammer units. Since the knights are bogarting the war banner, and I don't really care to put MR2 on my greatswords, it works out great.

If you wanted to go super defensive and take the dawn armor, enchanted shield, and sword of might or battle, as you stated, you have to pay an extra 20ish points to take the grandmaster, effectively. At that point, +1WS, I, A and Immune to Psych for 45 or so points becomes a more legitimate decision one way or the other.

But again, if we're talking about anything other than running with knights, comparing them isn't exactly fair. It's like arguing that the wizard lord is better than the general at flying around on a pegasus and casting spells, one is just plain out of his element.

logan054
10-11-2007, 11:17
I have to agree with Kahadras on the grandmaster issue, really his only use is to lead a unit if knights, as great as that is i see the only time is going to take to the field in one of my armies is if i ever decided to do a knights powder. Personally i like the empire general far more and to me makes far more sense to include such a leader, i think the key here is you cant really predict to location he is going to deploy unlike with the GM which really your going to need to a bucket load of points on knights (which i dont think he empire is about anyways).

I think i would like the GM more if he had the option to go on foot, still cant complain to much, the empire book is still pretty versatile.

Kahadras
10-11-2007, 13:14
But again, if we're talking about anything other than running with knights, comparing them isn't exactly fair. It's like arguing that the wizard lord is better than the general at flying around on a pegasus and casting spells, one is just plain out of his element.

Not really. That's my whole point. You need knights to make the Grandmaster worthwhile. You don't really need to take any unit to make the General worthwhile taking, nor the Wizard lord, nor the Arch lector.

Let's roll this arguement back to the beginning because this was the statement I took issue with...


If your army general is mounted on a horse, It is better to take a Grandmaster. For 23 more points you get better stats and a unit of Knights Immune to Psyhe. The Empire General is almost as useful as the Empire Master Engineer....

Which is incorrect. It should read 'If you want to take a lord choice with knights all the time then it's better to take a Grandmaster as the Empire general is suboptimal in this roll although he does work out cheaper and doesn't suffer from equipment being pre paid for in his points cost.'

Kahadras

Shank
10-11-2007, 14:06
Well, I think, most Empire players will have at least 1 unit of Knights in their army. So I don't see how that is limiting. If you say, "I don't play knights" well, that of course is different. My General is usually with my Knights, I almost never play him on foot. I want the extra movement, Attack from Horse (which is alway more deadly) and boost to armor save. Clearly, the Grand Master is the better choice. My knights also always take the War Banner. So again, one less banner for my state troops to take if I take the Empire General.
OK, so you want Dawn Armor. You still get all of those other bonus's for 23 points more. I can't see how that isn't a real bargain. Lets face it, full plate is only 14 points.
And one more thing. The Grandmaster doesn't have to join his knights. He can go on his own or even join infantry. With the 7th edition rules, he can't be targeted. Now you get a 1+ armor save and the best general in your army fighting with say, your Greatswords. Granted, you lose the immune to pshye bonus, but still better than doing the same with the Empire General.

Kahadras
10-11-2007, 17:15
Well, I think, most Empire players will have at least 1 unit of Knights in their army. So I don't see how that is limiting. If you say, "I don't play knights" well, that of course is different. My General is usually with my Knights, I almost never play him on foot. I want the extra movement, Attack from Horse (which is alway more deadly) and boost to armor save. Clearly, the Grand Master is the better choice.

Yes he's the better choice. He costs more. It's like saying HE spearmen are better than Empire spearmen. They should be, they cost more. The fact which pulls the Grandmaster down is the fact that he's specialised. He's a combat orientated character in a world that boasts far more scary characters. Going against rank and file he's only slightly more effective than the General (having one better attack).

Each of the Empire characters has advantages and disadvantages but I really do feel that the Grandmaster is overrated.

Kahadras

Shank
10-11-2007, 17:37
Hitting on 3's is alot better than hitting on 4's. It isn't just the 1 better attack. When fighting elite type armies like Chaos, Dwarfs, Elves, even certain units like Black Orcs, the WS is huge. But I guess we will just disagree. And that is OK. Here is how I rate Empire Lord choices:
1-Arch Lector
2-Grand Master
3-Wizard Lord
4-(and a distant 4) Empire General

And as a side note. With the 1+ armor save and given the Holy Relic, the Grand Master is tough as nails.

Kahadras
10-11-2007, 17:55
I'd probably rate them...

1 - Arch Lector - Brings a bit of everything combat support, dispel dice, magic and is flexible as to where he can go and what he can do.

2 - General - Awesome flexibility as to his setup. At best he's a cheap Ld 9 bubble for an army with distinctly average leadership.

3 - Wizard lord - Although not that good the wizard does bring magic and dispel dice to the table and turns defencive magic into offencive magic.

4 - Grandmaster - Has more killing power than the General but is more expencive. Doesn't have much flexibility in what he can be equipt with (bar magic items) and is limited as to where he's best deployed (knights).

Kahadras

Von Wibble
10-11-2007, 18:21
Hmmm... why not put the grand master with foot troops? Its not like he paid for ITP. Having to take knights is no issue either as they are incredibly useful core troops.

I don't like the wizard lord at all. Firstly he is a gamble as magic can easily go wrong. Secondly, he is Ld 8 in an army noted for taking numerous panic checks.

But as I tend to use the arch lector this is irrelevent!