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Xgladar
27-10-2007, 15:54
when reading through the fluff about the eye of terror campaign,i read a funny thing.
Abbadons 13.black crusade-40.999 MD(was it MD,i think its called MD but cant remember).
so esentially,Games workshop cannot write anymore future stuff in the 41st millenium.

this has alot of meaning.sometimes when games workshop was making new models,it was as if the fluff itself was moving forward in technological terms(such as mark VI corvus armour being replaced by mark VI armour)now,they simply cannot do it anymore in THIS timeline they have made,unless they retcone the date of abbadons crusade,or everything else now happens in the year to come(the fluff year,not actuall real life year).

one point of this is Medusa 5.although it had a campaign and story,it didnt have an overall affect on the fluff as a whole,while the eye of terror campaign gave us the breached cadian gate and the whole story with the blackstone fortresses.

How can this still be warhammer 40000?

heretics bane
27-10-2007, 17:11
All the battles you fight now like deusa,eye of terror etc. have already been fought, thats the way GW want to keep it be the looks of things as warhammer 41k isnt that big a sale pitch that 40k. But thats just GW being awkward

TheMartyr451
27-10-2007, 17:44
I would like to see GW move forward with the fluff, not anything major, but something to keep it fresh.

I'd personally like to see the next campaign be about Angron reaping vengeance upon the Imperium again. I am sure he is itching to get back at them (especially the grey knights) for his banishment. It would certainly compliment apocalypse very well.

Trickle
27-10-2007, 17:48
TBH I dont see why they wouldnt keep calling it Wharhammer 40K even if they did allow the time line to move forward into the next millennium.

Besides 40.XXX is already the 41st Millennium.

Mechanicus
27-10-2007, 18:23
It's a setting, not a storyline. Nothing says they have to advance - and they've got ten thousand years worth to fill in. Why get more land when you haven't used up your ten thousand acres already? ;)

chris.seraphim
27-10-2007, 19:06
I like moving the story forward, and it's not like the'd have to re-brand it as 41K, thats just silly.

Moving ther fluff forward keeps people interested and allows them to add/achnage things to bring more people into the hobby, it's not as if you can't theme an army to be a M35 Imperial Guard army, or a immediately post-fall Eldar army right now, so if folks want an M40 year 999 army once the front edge of the fluff has moved on, trhen that's cool too.

It's basically an argument (as always) between folks who want to have everything beiong just 'as-is-in-the-current-fluff-and-codices' all the time, which is weak and lame and un-creative, and everyone else who appreciates its a great big universe to play in and we can all take those parts of the fluffwe like and make an army, campiagn, story or whatever out of them. Thats the point, people!

Sure, I'd like to see the fluff move forward, and I'm a firm believer that the big summer campaigns should affect HOW the fluff moves forward. UIts an indicator of how many serious gamers like a certain army, so maybe they should get some better luck for a while, and eventually (seeing as us wargamers tend to be a contrary lot) that'll swing the other way and other armies will come to the fore.
BUT
that doesnt mean I won't happily theme a force, or fight a campaign set on Cadia in M40.999, or Armageddon five hundred years previously or ANY other pint in the previous ten thousand years!

for example, im currently contemplating building an alpha legion force, using the SM codex, so I could fight them in any conflict, against any one throughout the duration of the 40K universe. It wont matter of the front edge of the fkluff moves forward or not.

But I'd like it to, because as much as I love 'fantasy booking' how things are gonna go myself, its always nice to have a 'Canon' version of events, 'cause they ALWAYS throw up even more possibilites...remember it's not as if GW want to END the story, it's not as if moving the story forward is going to involve the Fall of Terra. or the final completion of the Necrons Great Work. They just WONT allow it to happen.

What I'd like to see would be an Imperial Schism, throwing the Astartes and some of the =][= against the High Lords and the rest of the =][=, which opens up the frontiers, allowing the Tau to expand, the 13th Black Crusade to escape into free space, and also (most importantly) allowing the Orks back into being major players in the universe.
Breaking the 'wall' of the Imperium loosens up the opportunity to have various forces going at each other, while keeping the Imperioum a serious force, ity is a divided one and theres LOTS of storyline possibilities there.
Also, with the potential waking of the Void Dragon and Outsider, there is a lot of possibilities for the Necrons to have a civil war, before they come after the rest of the galaxy, and theres is ALWAYS another Tyranid HIve Fleet on the way......

Thats a bit more inetresting than right now I think, but thats just my humble opinion.

Ktotwf
27-10-2007, 19:09
They need to move forward, but not change anything, IMHO.

Everyone keeps calling for an Imperial Schism, but that is lame IMHO, and I am not sure why every fanboy on this site loves that idea so much.

chris.seraphim
27-10-2007, 19:38
OK, Ktotwf

As I said, I like the idea of an Imperial Schism as
a) it allows more storyline possibilites for conflicts between Imperial Armies, apart from 'Chapter X has been declared excommunicate by a rogue Inquisitor,' or 'Imperial Governor Y has rebelled with his garrison.' This expanded background will aloow for more interesting interaction between SM and IG and between =][= and everyone!
b) allows races who are currently marginalised, or hemmed in such as the Tau and the Orks to 'break out' and become bigger players on the galactic scene.
c) it allows Chaos to break out of the Eye, and now CSM of any Legion can appear anywhere, making a grab for Ork worlds near the Core, or even going toe to toe with the Tau, or Nids.

Basically it opens up a pile of new possibilities, and thats without even toucvhing on an Eldar comeback (given their awesome showing on MeduaIV and the EoT campaign), the C'Tan who are still to wake, the Tau 4th expansion, whatever Abaddon chooses to DO with the Planet Killer and Blackstone fortresses and isnt there a Hive Fleet or a Waagh meant to be roaring out of Octavius soon?

It doesnt need to be a fixed schism, an actual civil war, but some more division in the megalithic Imperium allows a lot more to come to the surface, from within and from without.
Personally im a bit bored of the blind obediance to the Ecclesiarchal faith and the solid Imperium, it is a loose federation held together by a false faith, or a faith which has devaiated from its original intent - perhaps the Ecclesiarchy and certain portions of the Inquisition decide that the SM chapters reveration for their Primarchs and the Emperor as a MAN not a GOD is heretical and they try to change it, to which the bulk of the Astartes say HELL NO.
Its not a big change, its been hinted at from the very start, but that loss of focus and cohesion for the Imperium allows other races back into the limelight,. while still hving a big meaty Imperio-centric storyline.

Whats wrong with that?

Anyway, there are my reasons, very quickly stated and in need of ironing out, but could you state YOUR case for why an Imperial Schism would be 'lame'.......
--------------------------------------------------------------------
and I don't like being described in a derogatory way as a 'fanboy,' especially by someone who won't back up their argument or point - what the hell is it meant to mean anyway?

Ktotwf
27-10-2007, 20:07
Fanboy was just a general term, wasn't really meant to be a personal insult.

I see the Imperial Schism as a problem, for the simple reason that the Universe of 40k as we know it exists in an equilibrium.

That equilibrium is vaguely something like The Imperium vs. Everyone else. Because that is the way GW loves to make it.

The Necrons aren't attacking the Tau or the Eldar, they are attacking the Imperium. The Orks aren't attacking the Tau or Eldar, they are attacking the Imperium. The Tau aren't attacking the Orks, or Necrons, or Eldar, they are attacking the Imperium...etc etc and so on and so forth.

Thus, we need to believe essentially that the Imperium as it exists is capable of meeting all of these threats to a greater or lesser degree, or else the Universe loses its believability.

So, if the Imperium has a schism, there needs to be significant Alien vs. Alien conflict, or else the Imperium is going to be overwhelmed.

And that wouldn't be fair...why sacrifice the integrity of your flagship concept...the Imperium? (Especially since all the models that make up the various Imperial ranges probably outsell everything else made by GW put together)

Also, the main problem I have with that concept is that EVERYONE comes up with it. Is that ALL you can think of? The whole point of the Imperium in 40k is that it has passed through the Heresy and the Apostasy, and is now firmly reunited. It would just be repetitive to have ANOTHER Space Marine led civil war.

Is there nothing more creative we can come up with than "OMG, teh imperiumz fitez itzelfsss!"

Adra
27-10-2007, 20:16
Also, the main problem I have with that concept is that EVERYONE comes up with it. Is that ALL you can think of? The whole point of the Imperium in 40k is that it has passed through the Heresy and the Apostasy, and is now firmly reunited. It would just be repetitive to have ANOTHER Space Marine led civil war.

Is there nothing more creative we can come up with than "OMG, teh imperiumz fitez itzelfsss!"

Thats a fair opinion but the Imperium is supposed to the the remains of past glory. Its supposed to be a little bit doomed. i mean it could go either way. I agree that the "new imerium civil war" is boring but its not hard to understand why people mention it alot becayse it would seriously mess up the balance of 40k.

Green-is-best
27-10-2007, 22:49
If I were to add a new human vs. human conflict, I'd bring a new player on to the scene. I've always liked the idea of introducing humans from beyond the reach of the Astronomican in Segmentum Ultima. Perhaps they survived the Age of Strife with Dark Age era tech intact, but their little corner of the galaxy has been isolated by warp storms for 15k years. When the stroms finally break, they send an envoy to Earth in order to reestablish contact, only to find a hostile government that wants to steal their technology.

Iracundus
28-10-2007, 00:01
It is possible to continue the storyline by simply slightly extending the current trajectory of each race's fortunes, without causing huge upheaval in the overall universe. Unfortunately the most common suggestsions from fans seem to involve some variation of "OMG the Primarchs are back!" or some other equivalent doomsday scenario. Such scenarios are what would never be allowed to happen as they would alter the status quo tremendously or even lead to the end of the 40K universe.

Minor steps forward though are possible for each race while still keeping things more or less the same, as shown below:

Chaos: Cadian Gate breakout doesn't immediately have to lead to the Siege of Terra, particularly when the Imperium is channeling its forces to bog down Abaddon's advance. Ongoing fighting in the area of the Gate and attempts to advance towards Terra can be explored as well as possibly the 13th Black Crusade starting to lose momentum or splinter as the individual warlords, buoyed with success, start to pursue their own goals. Of course, there can also be Abaddon's attempts to keep things moving forward, up to and including attacking these recalcitrant warlords.

Dark Eldar: They need more background development period. Right now they exist as two or even one dimensional cariciatures with their only motivation being really given as seizing slaves.

Demonhunters: Chaos breakout from Eye of Terror, and Typhus's daemonworld mean the Inquisition and the Grey Knights can be very busy in the area.

Eldar: Exploration of Altansar's background and their gains in the Eye of Terror. Maybe give hints of a possible Eldar resurgence, so that there is a glimmer of hope for them, while also showing they are still a significant galactic player.

Imperial Guard: More bits of expansion on how they're facing each of the other major threats. Perhaps some bit on Cadia's status. Even if it hasn't totally fallen to Chaos, the Gate was still overwhelmed in the EoT campaign, so it could be portrayed possibly as a sort of Stalingrad that is surrounded by the enemy, but which the Imperium is still trying to relieve or resupply. Also on the Eastern Fringe, maybe a limited counterattack against the Tau (see Tau section below) to show the Imperial flag, even though the area remains denuded of forces to supply the effort against the 13th Black Crusade.

Necrons: Ongoing awakening of more Necron constructs. More attempts to proceed with the Great Work and harvest more Pariahs. Maybe some minor infighting between the various C'tan's Necron followers. Also perhaps some Necron vs. Tyranid conflict so that these supposed superpowers can grind each other to a stalemate creating more believability about how the Imperium can survive just a little longer against so many foes.

Orks: Orks remain Orks. Lots of infighting but fast breeding and resilient as a race. The ongoing conflict with Leviathan can be stalemated. There are your usual Waaghs, but there is also the Green Kroosade (EoT campaign) that can be expanded upon since they seized practically an entire sub-sector of worlds.

Space Marines: GW's posterboys can continue their existence as defenders of the Imperium. However, there can be LIMITED details of possible inter-Chapter conflict such as the examples of the Relictors or the implied disappearance of the Black Templar cruiser at the hands of the Dark Angels. Note this is more to give some justification to the inevitable SM player vs SM player battles rather than any attempt to have a "civil war" scenario. Ongoing battles around the Cadian Gate are an obvious area to explore. There is also the repeated battles on Nimbosa in Tau space, and a limited counterattack against the Tau in conjunction with the Imperial Guard can also be shown.

Tau: The ongoing drain of Imperial manpower and resources to face the 13th Black Crusade continues to leave areas open for exploitation. The 3rd Sphere Expansion expands further, but perhaps over-extends itself and exposes itself to a limited Imperial counterattack. This way the Tau become more significant galactic players but without appearing to face no obstacles.

Tyranids: Hive Fleet Leviathan's conflict with the Orks of Octavius may or may not have an immediate conclusion. There is also the still ongoing running war with Kraken's splinter fleets that can be explored.

Witchunters: Obvious war front in the Cadian Gate area causing widespread heresy. Also the expanding influence of Tau propaganda is an area they can fight. The increase in rebellions on the Eastern Fringe either due to Tau propaganda or the unrest caused by stripping worlds to reinforce the Cadian Gate can provide fertile grounds for Witchunters, Space Marines, and Imperial Guard as they go about suppressing these uprisings, while the Tau try to capitalize on them.

chris.seraphim
28-10-2007, 08:39
OK, I get the point that the Imperium is GW's 'focal point' for 40K, but if it's believability you are looking for, look to histoiry. No matter HOW great the Empire, it WILL fall, only for the new Empire to take it's place.

And I'll admit, I like the idea of the Primarchs comeing back, and there being a great and just war between those who want the Imperium to be what it was intended to be, and thoise who are quite happy/brainwashed by the status quo.
But I dont thiunk it SHOULD happen, because THAT leads us to the irreconcilable end of the Imperium and also poses the problem of sticking Primarchs on a 40K tabletop - although in Apoc scale battles, this wouldnt be SUCH a problem - like it says in the HH books 'but Fulgrim could not be everywhere...' etc.

I just think that, as Iracundus said, the current themes and plots should be expanded upon - the Black Templars are off on their own thing, there is a LOT of documented suspicion of the Space Wolves, Dark Angels and Blood Angels for their various pecadillos, not to mention any even more deviant chapters like the Relictors. In times of crisis, such as the aftermath of the 13th Black Crusade, it is often the little men, who wish to put others down, the scribes and scriveners, the notaries who will point the finger at the Astartes and say they let the Imperium down, and arn't they abhuman? Don't they have deviant religious faiths?
It doesnt have to be a full civil war, just a distancing of some of the parts of the Imperium from others, because in real terms, the Imperium has been dying ever since the Emperor got stuck in the throne, whatever successes and comebacks they have made.
For example, the Roman Empire was in decline ever since the days of Trajan and Vespasian ut it took another 300 years to fall, and by that time the Barbarians were inside the walls......im not saying we should go that far with 40k, no, that should take about another five editions to get to, AT LEAST. And then, a new Empire should be founded, based on how us fans want the new Imperium to turn out - but thats a question for twenty years from now.

I just think that the various arms of the Imperium dont like each other, with good reason, and that should be explored more.

Ally that with the fallout from Cadia's cordon being broken and it also drags a lot of other races into the light.

DE- NEED a new Codex, beefed up army list, give them more background, apart from that I cant say what to do with them.

Eldar- On the comeback? After good results in the past few big campaigns, I think the Eldar need a repreive (Eldrad's soulstone recovered, and placed into a Wraithlord? - but he has seen the mind of She Who Thirsts and knows what is to come.....or something) maybe a campaign to recover lost Maiden Worlds?

Orks- Currently engaged on Aramgeddon and in Octavius against the Guard and Nids respectively. Ghazghkull is still on the run from the Black Templars - where are they going? Again, need a new codex and brought back to the front end of the game.

Chaos- breakout from Cadia, what is Abaddon's plan for the planet killer? Or is he under orders to stopn the Necrons with the Blackstone Fortresses? I'd like to see the Alpha Legion brought to the fore, cause therir MO is just too awesome.

Tau- again expanding slowly, but a splinter fleet from Kraken, a possible Eladr reconquista of the Maiden Worlds they inhabit would offset the Imperium having it's mind set elsewhere.

Necrons - theres still two C'Tan to wake, and a lot of interesting possibilities.....

Anyways, I like the idea of the IMperium being a little less monolothic, as the inevitable repulsion of any assault from without is a bit dull, but I am NOT advocating any kind of complete breakdown of the IMperium...yet. Also remember that great Empires tend to fall from within, and thats a very interesting story to play out over several ediations of the game.

The_Patriot
28-10-2007, 09:26
If I were to add a new human vs. human conflict, I'd bring a new player on to the scene. I've always liked the idea of introducing humans from beyond the reach of the Astronomican in Segmentum Ultima. Perhaps they survived the Age of Strife with Dark Age era tech intact, but their little corner of the galaxy has been isolated by warp storms for 15k years. When the stroms finally break, they send an envoy to Earth in order to reestablish contact, only to find a hostile government that wants to steal their technology.

That sounds a lot like a reverse Return of Kerensky ie Return of the Clans from Battletech.

There does need to be a major shake up since the setting is stagnating. However, I would do it through an online campaign and use the standing of the various armies to determine where the setting goes.

Ktotwf
28-10-2007, 09:28
There does need to be a major shake up since the setting is stagnating. However, I would do it through an online campaign and use the standing of the various armies to determine where the setting goes.

I don't see it as stagnating. We are simply experiencing what THEY are...eternal, futile war. :p

The_Patriot
28-10-2007, 09:33
I don't see it as stagnating. We are simply experiencing what THEY are...eternal, futile war. :p

When I say stagnating I'm referring to how the Eldar as a dying race aren't really dying, how the Emperor hasn't healed or died which means the Imperium is essentially stuck in the same track it has been over the past 10,000 years, etc...

After reading The Horus Heresy: Collected Visions I walked away with the fact that the way things are now in the Imperium are not the way the Emperor would want them to be. I believe that in understanding what happened during those events will shape how the next millennium will be like. If the Emperor wakes up and sees how far the Imperium is from his original vision there would be hell to pay. It could lead to another civil war with the Emperor on one side and the High Lords plus the Church on the other. Who knows how that will turn out especially if the Sisters of Battle turn their backs on the Church and join forces with the Space Marines.

Ktotwf
28-10-2007, 09:37
When I say stagnating I'm referring to how the Eldar as a dying race aren't really dying, how the Emperor hasn't healed or died which means the Imperium is essentially stuck in the same track it has been over the past 10,000 years, etc...


Yes, but in that sense the metagame is reflective of the actual universe. Its 10,000 years later and the same old crap is going on. Nothing ever changes. Frontline of the ETERNAL war.


I believe that in understanding what happened during those events will shape how the next millennium will be like. If the Emperor wakes up and sees how far the Imperium is from his original vision there would be hell to pay.

The Emperor is, according to most sources, psychically aware. He KNOWS what is going on. He probably wouldn't be as opposed to the Imperium as most people think. After all, he watches over and protects it through his massive psychic powers.

The_Patriot
28-10-2007, 09:45
Yes, but in that sense the metagame is reflective of the actual universe. Its 10,000 years later and the same old crap is going on. Nothing ever changes. Frontline of the ETERNAL war.



The Emperor is, according to most sources, psychically aware. He KNOWS what is going on. He probably wouldn't be as opposed to the Imperium as most people think. After all, he watches over and protects it through his massive psychic powers.

Metagame and fluff are not the same thing. ;)

He may be aware of what is happening, but there is no indication that he approves of what's been happening. Remember, he was opposed to being deified and he was opposed to exterminating other races for the sake of exterminating them. The only reason why he had his army attack worlds held by aliens was due to the significant population of humans there and the aliens oppressed them. He did not send his armies out on exterminatus missions just to kill off the alien. His armies were focused on freeing and securing human held worlds then providing protection to those worlds. He also was against the deification of machines ala AM. He believed only in logic and reason and did not fear advancement of technology as a whole. He did fear AI's becoming prominent again which is why he forbade the AM from ever researching such things. Keep in mind part of the reason why the Age of Strife occurred was due to the fighting between man and AI's.

Ktotwf
28-10-2007, 09:48
Metagame and fluff are not the same thing. ;)

No, but in this case they are oddly in sync and reflective of each other.


He may be aware of what is happening, but there is no indication that he approves of what's been happening.

Except his continued patronage of the Imperium. Although it could simply be a case of him not abandoning humanity, and simply playing along because his only other choice is to watch the Imperium die.


Remember, he was opposed to being deified

He was opposed to religion for the rather practical purpose of destroying Chaos influence.


and he was opposed to exterminating other races for the sake of exterminating them.

Since when? Loads of alien races were exterminated during the Great Crusade.

The_Patriot
28-10-2007, 10:19
No, but in this case they are oddly in sync and reflective of each other.

It's still not part of the equation no matter how you try to make it seem like that.



Except his continued patronage of the Imperium. Although it could simply be a case of him not abandoning humanity, and simply playing along because his only other choice is to watch the Imperium die.

His goal is to ensure that humanity survives and is protected from Chaos as well as enslaving alien races. Hence the reason why he continues to protect humanity even when his agents go contrary to his wishes.


He was opposed to religion for the rather practical purpose of destroying Chaos influence.

He opposed religion on the basis that it is illogical and unreasonable. Religion is easily perverted to suit the whims of man which is why he didn't support his deification. Need I remind you that it was because of religion that the west was stuck in an age of darkness for several hundred years and halted many advances in science due to the science running contrary to religious dogma. Galileo and Sir Isaac Newton spring to mind.


Since when? Loads of alien races were exterminated during the Great Crusade.

Not quite true, since in the Horus Heresy: Collected Visions states that he sent his armies to worlds held by aliens to free humanity. Extermination was not his goal, but freeing and protecting humanity was. He had no problems working with Eldar or other alien races as long as they did not interfere with humanity nor try to oppress them by conquering their worlds. He even respected the technology of those races which is why he spent so much time trying to rebuild the webway for safe human passage. He even learned from the Eldar's webways under the palace on how to protect the new human portions from Chaos. If anything he is the complete opposite of what the Imperium is at right now.

Grudge Bearor
28-10-2007, 10:26
I would like to see GW move forward with the fluff, not anything major, but something to keep it fresh.

I'd personally like to see the next campaign be about Angron reaping vengeance upon the Imperium again. I am sure he is itching to get back at them (especially the grey knights) for his banishment. It would certainly compliment apocalypse very well.

yeh that would be cool and all but i bet Angron is spewing now because last time i checked you need sorcerors to bring demon princes back and what happend to all the world eater sorcerors :skull:

Ktotwf
28-10-2007, 10:29
It's still not part of the equation no matter how you try to make it seem like that.

I don't get what you are arguing about. The two reflect each other. That was the only observation I made.


He opposed religion on the basis that it is illogical and unreasonable. Religion is easily perverted to suit the whims of man which is why he didn't support his deification. Need I remind you that it was because of religion that the west was stuck in an age of darkness for several hundred years and halted many advances in science due to the science running contrary to religious dogma. Galileo and Sir Isaac Newton spring to mind.

No...that is what he TOLD PEOPLE he thought. He was against religion because religion fed Chaos. He KNEW Chaos existed, which is why he could never have been a true Atheist.



Extermination was not his goal

Ummm...yes it was. The Space Marines in the HH novels exterminate the Megaarachnids for the simple reason that they are aliens and not humans.

The idea that Xenos are there to be exterminated, and that Xenos were somehow inferior or impure, and that humanity was the "master race" was already there.


but freeing and protecting humanity was.

Also this.


He had no problems using the Eldar or other alien races as long as they did not interfere with humanity nor try to oppress them by conquering their worlds.

Fixed.


If anything he is the complete opposite of what the Imperium is at right now.

No he is not. Not at all. The Emperor was a racial warrior, a chauvinist for humanity.

The_Patriot
28-10-2007, 10:47
I don't get what you are arguing about. The two reflect each other. That was the only observation I made.

No...that is what he TOLD PEOPLE he thought. He was against religion because religion fed Chaos. He KNEW Chaos existed, which is why he could never have been a true Atheist.

Ummm...yes it was. The Space Marines in the HH novels exterminate the Megaarachnids for the simple reason that they are aliens and not humans.

The idea that Xenos are there to be exterminated, and that Xenos were somehow inferior or impure, and that humanity was the "master race" was already there.

Also this.

Fixed.

No he is not. Not at all. The Emperor was a racial warrior, a chauvinist for humanity.

Again no, he truly believed that logic and reason were the way to go. The wars on Terra during the Age of Strife were the result of religion. The people of Terra had no respect for logic and reason which is why they sank to technobarberism. Most of the technology from the Dark Age of Technology was lost on Terra and people did not know how to build things. The Ad Mech only agreed to support the Emperor was due to him agreeing to letting them dig on Terra for lost tech. Keep in mind that I am not arguing against religion feeding Chaos, but against your position that his sole reason against deification was due to Chaos. That simply is not the truth, since he knew the nature of the warp and that if he was deified humanity would spawn an Emperor-God in the warp.

No, it was not. Extermination only resulted when an alien race had moved in on entire sectors and refused to leave. Also keep in mind that after the early stages of the Crusade the Emperor was locked away on Earth with Horus calling the shots. We all know that Horus served Chaos so such extermination would only strengthen the gods of Chaos specifically Khorne. Using logic and reason we can come to the conclusion that the Emperor wanted to starve Chaos of its power and extermination would only go to strengthen Chaos so he wouldn't want to exterminate entire races. It's a situation of damned if you and damned if you don't. Was Horus exterminating aliens in the Emperor's name or was he doing it in the name of Chaos? Who knows, but we can extrapolate that it certainly wasn't from the Emperor.

At least you agree that it was for freeing and protecting humanity.

Try not to change what I said. It's rude and uncalled for. It also shows that you are unable to come up with a logical counterpoint to what I said. As such my original point still stands in that he respected and learned from alien technology.

No, that came later after his internment upon the Golden Throne. The goal of the Great Crusade was to unite humanity and to protect it for the future. The possible future the Emperor had foreseen was one where humanity was utterly destroyed by both Chaos and aliens. He wanted to ensure their survival even if it meant going to war with an alien species. There was no master race mentality since he knew that the next stage of evolution for humanity was to become powerful psykers that surpassed the Eldar. He understood the dangers of the warp upon psykers which is the only reason why he clamped down on the use of psychic powers. It wasn't to kill them to keep the genepool pure, but it was to hold them and train them in using their powers for the betterment of humanity. Sacrificing psykers to power the Astronomicon was done with great reluctance and sorrow to the Emperor, but it was the only way to break through the warp storms caused by the Chaos gods to protect humanity from Horus. It was to be a temporary measure, but with his wounding by Horus he needed their souls to feed his own.

Ktotwf
28-10-2007, 10:59
Again no, he truly believed that logic and reason were the way to go. The wars on Terra during the Age of Strife were the result of religion. The people of Terra had no respect for logic and reason which is why they sank to technobarberism. Most of the technology from the Dark Age of Technology was lost on Terra and people did not know how to build things. The Ad Mech only agreed to support the Emperor was due to him agreeing to letting them dig on Terra for lost tech. Keep in mind that I am not arguing against religion feeding Chaos, but against your position that his sole reason against deification was due to Chaos. That simply is not the truth, since he knew the nature of the warp and that if he was deified humanity would spawn an Emperor-God in the warp.

No convincing evidence here. You simply restated your opinion.



No, it was not. Extermination only resulted when an alien race had moved in on entire sectors and refused to leave.

Ummm...in the case of the Megaarachnids the Space Marines just landed on their planet and killed them all.




Try not to change what I said. It's rude and uncalled for. It also shows that you are unable to come up with a logical counterpoint to what I said. As such my original point still stands in that he respected and learned from alien technology.

No, if you actually took a second to think about what I wrote, it is obvious what I meant was that the Emperor was willing to USE aliens for the benefit of humanity.


The goal of the Great Crusade was to unite humanity and to protect it for the future. The possible future the Emperor had foreseen was one where humanity was utterly destroyed by both Chaos and aliens.

You're missing the point here though. He was INSURING human survival by EXTERMINATING all alien races. That was his ideology - that humanity would only be safe when there were no more aliens. Human manifest destiny.

You're turning the Emperor into some sort of goody two shoes character and robbing the 40k universe of its shades of grey.

Indrid Khold
28-10-2007, 11:04
You're turning the Emperor into some sort of goody two shoes character and robbing the 40k universe of its shades of grey.


Oh, for cryin' out loud ....

"Shades of gray" does not mean "uniformly black" like everyone who tends to use that argument always tends to imply.

As for the Emperor, I'd say that he genuinely believed in the power of Reason, and that he would be against the outright extermination of
alien species that did not pose a threat to the Imperium (his definition of "threat," however, may have been a bit broader than we might use today).

The_Patriot
28-10-2007, 11:07
No convincing evidence here. You simply restated your opinion.

Ummm...in the case of the Megaarachnids the Space Marines just landed on their planet and killed them all.

No, if you actually took a second to think about what I wrote, it is obvious what I meant was that the Emperor was willing to USE aliens for the benefit of humanity.

You're missing the point here though. He was INSURING human survival by EXTERMINATING all alien races. That was his ideology - that humanity would only be safe when there were no more aliens. Human manifest destiny.

You're turning the Emperor into some sort of goody two shoes character and robbing the 40k universe of its shades of grey.

Actually, restating what was written in Horus Heresy: Collected Visions. Got anything on your side of the argument to bring forth? Didn't think so.

Again I bring forth the point was Horus serving the Emperor or was he serving Chaos at the time of the extermination? You seem to keep dodging the question.

Which would be your opinion not backed up by fluff. Horus Heresy: Collected Visions states differently.

That would be your opinion not backed up by fluff. Extermination was not his intended goal and never was as per HH: CV.

I'm stating the facts as presented in HH: CV. Shades of grey only occur when you're looking at something objectively which happens rarely. Subjectively, ie a certain point of view, there is always a good guy and a bad guy. In the case of HH: CV, the Emperor is the good guy and Horus is the bad guy from the Imperial point of view. The inverse is true for Chaos.

Ktotwf
28-10-2007, 11:09
Oh, for cryin' out loud ....

"Shades of gray" does not mean "uniformly black" like everyone who tends to use that argument always tends to imply.

In 40k it often does.

I HATE (with a capital H) that people can't separate their own morality from 40k morality, and instead of simply trying to understand the Universe, they try and fit the Emperor into their own Liberal version of how a ruler should be. He was a mystic, a dictator, a Xenocide.

The Imperium that sprang up simply continued what he had began, with the only real change being worship of him as a God instead of formal atheism.



As for the Emperor, I'd say that he genuinely believed in the power of Reason

The Emperor was a 40,000 year old man made up of the various souls of long dead primitive shaman.

And he was advocating "reason"? I call shenanigans on that one.



and that he would be against the outright extermination of
alien species that did not pose a threat to the Imperium

The very fact that so many alien races were exterminated during the Great Crusade makes that point seem pretty silly.

Ktotwf
28-10-2007, 11:16
Actually, restating what was written in Horus Heresy: Collected Visions. Got anything on your side of the argument to bring forth? Didn't think so.

Ummm...yeah actually.

Old Imperial Fluff states that the Emperor was actually formed from the souls of Psykers who killed themselves in order to form a symbiotic new organism which would serve to guide humanity and protect them against the depredations of the Chaos Gods.

The Emperor was essentially saying to people "There are no gods" when in fact he knew better.

But he had known the Chaos Gods existed SINCE THE BEGINNING OF HIS LIFE. It was his PURPOSE to know they existed.

So, we have a guy who KNOWS Gods exist advocating ATHEISM, which just so happens to rob the Gods he knows exist of their power.

Hmmm...seems a tad bit fishy to me.


Again I bring forth the point was Horus serving the Emperor or was he serving Chaos at the time of the extermination? You seem to keep dodging the question.

He was serving the Emperor. Period. And so was everyone else at that time. Horus only converted to Chaos after being nearly mortally wounded.


Extermination was not his intended goal and never was as per HH: CV.

You're making crap up. Give me a QUOTE that says that the Emperor did not want to exterminate aliens. A quote, not your opinion, or something about how he used alien technology or something.


Subjectively, ie a certain point of view, there is always a good guy and a bad guy. In the case of HH: CV, the Emperor is the good guy and Horus is the bad guy from the Imperial point of view. The inverse is true for Chaos.

Yes, but the Emperor is a good guy from the Imperial POV BECAUSE he wanted to exterminate alien races, not IN SPITE of the fact.

Indrid Khold
28-10-2007, 11:22
In 40k it often does.

I HATE (with a capital H) that people can't separate their own morality from 40k morality, and instead of simply trying to understand the Universe, they try and fit the Emperor into their own Liberal version of how a ruler should be. He was a mystic, a dictator, a Xenocide.

First of all, chill out. There is absolutely no reason to "hate with a capital H" anything involved with 40K. It's a game and a game setting. Deep breaths.

Secondly, nobody is saying that he wasn't any of those things. We are simply saying that, particularly in comparison to the leaders of the current Imperium, he was a fairly benevolent dictator who did not kill pre-technological alien civilizations just for being there.




The Emperor was a 40,000 year old man made up of the various souls of long dead primitive shaman.

And he was advocating "reason"? I call shenanigans on that one.


Call shenanigans all you want, but it's true. He actively discouraged all forms of theism (to keep the Warp from gaining power) and put faith in the more reliable technology of the physical realm. The fact that he knew there was a second half of reality that was not bound to reason does not mean that he couldn't be reasonable. While the man himself used the Warp and was perhaps a creature of the Warp, he encouraged a more Necron/Tau-style policy of science in his empire. It's just safer that way, frankly.




The very fact that so many alien races were exterminated during the Great Crusade makes that point seem pretty silly.

The Emperor wasn't everywhere at once. Primarchs and generals made their own calls.

And even then, Horus himself was well on his way to accepting aliens as allies before Chaos came in and fouled everything up.

The_Patriot
28-10-2007, 11:28
Ummm...yeah actually.

Old Imperial Fluff states that the Emperor was actually formed from the souls of Psykers who killed themselves in order to form a symbiotic new organism which would serve to guide humanity and protect them against the depredations of the Chaos Gods.

The Emperor was essentially saying to people "There are no gods" when in fact he knew better.

But he had known the Chaos Gods existed SINCE THE BEGINNING OF HIS LIFE. It was his PURPOSE to know they existed.

So, we have a guy who KNOWS Gods exist advocating ATHEISM, which just so happens to rob the Gods he knows exist of their power.

Hmmm...seems a tad bit fishy to me.

He was serving the Emperor. Period. And so was everyone else at that time. Horus only converted to Chaos after being nearly mortally wounded.

You're making crap up. Give me a QUOTE that says that the Emperor did not want to exterminate aliens. A quote, not your opinion, or something about how he used alien technology or something.



Yes, but the Emperor is a good guy from the Imperial POV BECAUSE he wanted to exterminate alien races, not IN SPITE of the fact.

Old Imperial fluff can be false and given the current state of affairs it's safe to say that him being spawned by shamans is a false tale. There is no mention of his origins since 2nd Edition. Also taking into account the newer fluff flat out states the Emperor did not come into being until after Chaos was around, but rather he was around before Chaos was even formed.

Which does not contradict my points regarding logic and reason. This is what is known as a red herring argument. My comments regarding his deification actually goes against you since the Emperor knowing the nature of the warp would welcome a warp based ally in the form of an Emperor-God to fight the Chaos Gods on their own turf. This is not the case in any of the fluff.

See point 2.

Again you're selectively presenting your facts. In doing so you are rapidly losing credibility in this debate. Present the full facts or nothing at all.

Accusing me of making crap up and then demanding me to supply a quote, which I need not remind you, is a violation of the rules of Warseer. I gave you the source and it is up to you to read it for yourself.

Again you are confusing time frames since the Emperor did not want to exterminate entire races. This point of argument goes against you since the Emperor knew the nature of Chaos, as well as the warp, and in exterminating races he knew that he would only feed the Chaos gods. I shouldn't have to quote this statement, "Blood for the blood god, skulls for the skull throne." It's hard to deprive Chaos of their power when you're actively feeding them with souls. Souls that they require to survive. The double edge of you argument undoes your point. Logic states that one does not achieve the effect of depriving the Chaos gods of power by feeding them the source of their power which are souls.

Ktotwf
28-10-2007, 11:28
Secondly, nobody is saying that he wasn't any of those things. We are simply saying that, particularly in comparison to the leaders of the current Imperium, he was a fairly benevolent dictator who did not kill pre-technological alien civilizations just for being there.

Where is the evidence that he did not?



Call shenanigans all you want, but it's true. He actively discouraged all forms of theism (to keep the Warp from gaining power) and put faith in the more reliable technology of the physical realm. The fact that he knew there was a second half of reality that was not bound to reason does not mean that he couldn't be reasonable.

Yes it does. He knew that there was a cosmic struggle between HIS grasp on Humanity's soul, and the grip of the Chaos Gods.

He advocated the policy of reason for PRAGMATIC goals, not because he was anti-Religious.

If he really was reasonable and thought the warp and everything in it to be some extension of normal reality he wouldn't have deprived his followers of knowledge of it in the fear that they would become Chaos worshipping slaves.

The very fact that he never explained that to them means that he was hiding crap from people, for the very reasons I have laid out.



The Emperor wasn't everywhere at once. Primarchs and generals made their own calls.

The Great Crusade was a massive fascist outpouring of Humanity over the galaxy. The Primarchs killed everything that stood in their way because THAT WAS WHAT THEY WERE MADE TO DO.

Don't you think they understood the Emperor's will better than anyone? If the Emperor had truly been against Xenocide they would have been aware.

Indrid Khold
28-10-2007, 11:36
He advocated the policy of reason for PRAGMATIC goals, not because he was anti-Religious.


Er ... so,uh ... so what you're saying is that he advocated a policy of reason because he was ... reasonable?

In the immortal words of Mr. Spock, "I believe I just said that, Doctor."



Where is the evidence that he did not?


He worked with the Eldar, for one thing. For another, when Horus and his boys met up with those alien centaur folks there was much hemming and hawing over what to do with them. If there had been a standing Imperial order to completely exterminate all aliens on sight, then I think that part of the book would've been a lot shorter.



Also: The Primarchs disobeyed the will of the Emperor all the time. Are you honestly suggesting that they were all completely obedient to him at all times?

Ktotwf
28-10-2007, 11:36
Old Imperial fluff can be false and given the current state of affairs it's safe to say that him being spawned by shamans is a false tale. There is no mention of his origins since 2nd Edition. Also taking into account the newer fluff flat out states the Emperor did not come into being until after Chaos was around, but rather he was around before Chaos was even formed.

The Emperor's origins were referenced in Horus Rising. They are still the official fluff.


Which does not contradict my points regarding logic and reason. This is what is known as a red herring argument. My comments regarding his deification actually goes against you since the Emperor knowing the nature of the warp would welcome a warp based ally in the form of an Emperor-God to fight the Chaos Gods on their own turf. This is not the case in any of the fluff.

Not sure what that Gobblydeegook actually means.




Again you're selectively presenting your facts. In doing so you are rapidly losing credibility in this debate. Present the full facts or nothing at all.

I am not sure what the hell you are talking about.


Accusing me of making crap up and then demanding me to supply a quote, which I need not remind you, is a violation of the rules of Warseer. I gave you the source and it is up to you to read it for yourself.

I'll take it you can't produce the quote then.


Again you are confusing time frames since the Emperor did not want to exterminate entire races. This point of argument goes against you since the Emperor knew the nature of Chaos, as well as the warp, and in exterminating races he knew that he would only feed the Chaos gods. I shouldn't have to quote this statement, "Blood for the blood god, skulls for the skull throne." It's hard to deprive Chaos of their power when you're actively feeding them with souls. Souls that they require to survive. The double edge of you argument undoes your point. Logic states that one does not achieve the effect of depriving the Chaos gods of power by feeding them the source of their power which are souls.

Exterminating alien races would not feed the Chaos gods at all. Souls dissolve in the warp unless they are strongly associated with one of the Chaos Gods.

Look, you are an excessively weird and unpleasant person to debate with, so I will be ignoring any further posts from your end. Toodles.

Ktotwf
28-10-2007, 11:39
Er ... so,uh ... so what you're saying is that he advocated a policy of reason because he was ... reasonable?

Yes, but not out of PERSONAL CONVICTION is the distinction I am trying to make. Or at least his primary motivation was not personal conviction.




Also: The Primarchs disobeyed the will of the Emperor all the bloody time. Are you honestly suggesting that they were all completely obedient to him at all times?

Yes, but exterminating races goes BEYOND disobeyance. It is at the very heart of the mission statement behind the Great Crusade.

The way that mass alien extermination was pursued was a systematic choice, not a few instances of Primarch rebelliousness.


He worked with the Eldar, for one thing. For another, when Horus and his boys met up with those alien centaur folks there was much hemming and hawing over what to do with them. If there had been a standing Imperial order to completely exterminate all aliens on sight, then I think that part of the book would've been a lot shorter.

1. First of all, the Imperium had then and has now a wierd tolerance for the Eldar because there is so much to be gained from them

2. Usually the Imperium only exterminates races that pose an immediate threat "Xenos Horribilis" or are so weak it is just a matter of virus bombing them out of existence.

Usually if a race is just a peaceful, run of the mill race, then the Imperium will let them be in a lot of instances. Doesn't mean they are friends or pals with them, just that they don't go out of their way to destroy them.

To state that the Imperium goes way out of its way to terminate harmless aliens is taking it too far, but to state in any way that the Imperium practiced a Xenos friendly policy at any point is false.

Indrid Khold
28-10-2007, 11:44
Yes, but not out of PERSONAL CONVICTION is the distinction I am trying to make. Or at least his primary motivation was not personal conviction.

The distinction is, in my opinion, hardly relevant. The private feelings of one man, even the Emperor himself, pale in comparison to the feelings of those "untold billions" of humans who follow the emperor's orders.


As for the extermination of xenos species, I just provided two examples that appear to contradict you, which you have ignored. I admit that it is a gray area in the fluff, and I invite you to cite any examples of fluff where the Emperor states that all nonhuman races -- regardless of their age or actions -- must be exterminated on sight.

Also, you're being downright horrible to The_Patriot, who has been perfectly civil to you. I suggest you apologize.

The_Patriot
28-10-2007, 11:44
The Emperor's origins were referenced in Horus Rising. They are still the official fluff.

Not sure what that Gobblydeegook actually means.

I am not sure what the hell you are talking about.

I'll take it you can't produce the quote then.

Exterminating alien races would not feed the Chaos gods at all. Souls dissolve in the warp unless they are strongly associated with one of the Chaos Gods.

Look, you are an excessively weird and unpleasant person to debate with, so I will be ignoring any further posts from your end. Toodles.

I never said that it wasn't official fluff. I said that it wasn't true. Anything published by GW or its division is all classified as official fluff. Whether or not it's actually true is a different matter altogether. Thus, lies the crux of your argument as it falls and shatters into a million pieces.

It means that you are deflecting away from my position and presenting a false position in its place. See red herring arguments on the web for reference.

Stating half of the fact is being selective in presenting your position. It's also a fallacious form of argument since it shows you are unable to be present a valid and credible counter argument.

I gave you the source and by the rules of Warseer I am unable to quote the exact passage. Ergo, it falls to you to read the source for yourself.

If that was the case then Khorne would not get stronger from every death committed by a follower of his nor by a follower of Chaos Undivided. Nurgle wouldn't get stronger from the deaths of people who died from disease caused by his followers nor from the followers of Chaos Undivided etc...

Insulting someone is the last resort of a failed argument and shows you being unreasonable to debate the facts presented.

Ktotwf
28-10-2007, 11:51
The distinction is, in my opinion, hardly relevant.

Its relevant because this is a fictional universe, and the Emperor is the main character.

And it is relevant because the original point was that the Emperor would have been abhorred at having been "deified".

My viewpoint on this is that his policies were predicated on pragmatism, and thus he would have accepted his deification as ultimately necessary when Plan A failed.

Other people seem to be of the belief that the Emperor would NEVER have wanted to be deified because he was very personally against religion.

THAT is why it matters.

The_Patriot
28-10-2007, 11:57
Its relevant because this is a fictional universe, and the Emperor is the main character.

And it is relevant because the original point was that the Emperor would have been abhorred at having been "deified".

My viewpoint on this is that his policies were predicated on pragmatism, and thus he would have accepted his deification as ultimately necessary when Plan A failed.

Other people seem to be of the belief that the Emperor would NEVER have wanted to be deified because he was very personally against religion.

THAT is why it matters.

This is what we would call presenting a strawman logical fallacy argument. I never once said he would have abhorred being deified. I did say that he would be against it since he was always against being deified in any form. You have substituted my argument for a strawman argument that you can easily knock down.

Indrid Khold
28-10-2007, 11:57
Well, sure, he probably would have accepted deification if it was the only way to keep humanity from going extinct. I'm sure he would've done just about anything to keep that from happening. He wouldn't have liked it, though.


Also, the Emperor is not the "main character" of 40K. There is no main character.

Ktotwf
28-10-2007, 12:00
He wouldn't have liked it, though.

He doesn't like it because it is 10,000 years of excruciating torture. I hardly think after all that time he cares much about his ideologies.

Indrid Khold
28-10-2007, 12:02
He doesn't like it because it is 10,000 years of excruciating torture. I hardly think after all that time he cares much about his ideologies.

I'm a bit confused as to what we're even talking about at this point. Are you making some point about the throne-bound emperor of the 41st millenium now?

Ktotwf
28-10-2007, 12:04
I'm a bit confused as to what we're even talking about at this point.
Are you making some point about the throne-bound emperor of the 41st millenium now?


Basically you jumped into an argument and then started trying to point out every little thing you disagreed with me about.

Yes, the point I am making is that the Emperor is constantly suffering, and thus I think little things like his religious preferences have lost most meaning to him.

The_Patriot
28-10-2007, 12:05
I'm a bit confused as to what we're even talking about at this point.

He's ignoring me which is fine by me and only shows that I've won the debate with him. ;)

In my opinion, the only way to move forward with the setting is to either have the Eldar die off completely or regain part of the Eye of Terror. The Emperor wakes up and there's hell to pay with the High Lords as well as the Church, since their dogma runs contrary to what his stated goals for mankind are.

Iracundus
28-10-2007, 12:06
The original topic was extension of the storyline. I and several other posters made the point that upheaval is NOT required for progression of storyline.

The 40K universe has advanced from its 2nd ed. days (2nd War of Armageddon took place in the "present" of 2nd ed.) through to 3rd ed. (and the 3rd War of Armageddon) and now on to 4th ed. There is no reason why it cannot advance past the year 999 that GW seems so hung up on. There is no particular obstacle with keeping the brand name of 40K, and advancing one more step in the storyline like in previous editions doesn't suddenly mean invoking gigantic universe changing upheavals or doomsday scenarios. Things can change while overall the setting remains the same.

Indrid Khold
28-10-2007, 12:12
@ Ktotwf: Whatever you say, buddy.


@ Iracundus: I agree 100%. After all, we don't call the game "Warhammer 40,999" now, so there's really no reason in the world not to advance the setting a bit. And by "advance the setting a bit" I mean "advance the setting a bit." As you say, there's no need for it to completely turn everything on its head.

I would personally like to see some variant of Imperium vs. Imperium (if only to make the endless SM vs. SM games make more sense!), but it wouldn't have to be a galaxy-wide schism. Maybe just a smallish section of space that declared independence for whatever reason.

Ktotwf
28-10-2007, 12:14
I agree on that score. Little changes go a long way. They could change tiny details in the Fluff, just to basically hide the fact that they don't want to make big changes, and thus they could avoid the pitfall of seeming increasingly stale.

Iracundus
28-10-2007, 12:22
I am firmly against those that seem to equate advancing the storyline with basically upsetting the entire universe. There are far more inventive ways to explore each race beyond cliche and ham-fisted ways like throwing in Primarchs or Emperor awakening or other equally massive and therefore impossible changes. That's how 40K advanced in the past, and it didn't make things stale. Background for each of the races was added on to in small steps and layers like sediment.

SM vs. SM or even SM vs. IG is easily justifiable actually, and without invoking the boogeyman of Chaos or actual outright schism and civil war. It's just that GW doesn't explore it too often. The Imperium is a place of rampant fanaticism. All it takes is one group to think itself purer or more important than the others. You already have potential groups like the Dark Angels, Iron Hands, Marines Malevolent, or Black Templars for example. All of them profess loyalty to the Emperor, but they may disagree on what is the best path, and some of these groups have outright contempt for normal humans and their "weakness." Likewise, IG or Inquisitorial forces might be mobilized to rein in Chapters that have grown too independent. These kinds of minor skirmishes or brushfire wars might easily slip under the notice of the average Imperial citizen or official.

Ktotwf
28-10-2007, 12:23
I've never agreed with Iracundus so much. :cool:

Indrid Khold
28-10-2007, 12:26
SM vs. SM or even SM vs. IG is easily justifiable actually, and without invoking the boogeyman of Chaos or actual outright schism and civil war. It's just that GW doesn't explore it too often. The Imperium is a place of rampant fanaticism. All it takes is one group to think itself purer or more important than the others. You already have potential groups like the Dark Angels, Iron Hands, Marines Malevolent, or Black Templars for example. All of them profess loyalty to the Emperor, but they may disagree on what is the best path, and some of these groups have outright contempt for normal humans and their "weakness." Likewise, IG or Inquisitorial forces might be mobilized to rein in Chapters that have grown too independent.

Well ... true enough, I guess. But you'd think we'd hear about it more often in the fluff .... but then we all know that Space Marines fluff is totally biased mytho-propaganda ...

Meh.

I guess I'd just like this to be more overt in the official fluff.

BrotherAdso
28-10-2007, 12:28
Agreed. I think a good global campaign or mini-Dex a la 'Eye of Terror' and 'Armageddon' would make a great way to move things along. Heck, they could do "The Mahcarite Heresies" out on the Halo, which are more or less ongoing, they could do "The Siege of Solar," focusing on the beginnings of the hive fleets coming into the general plane, etc. All of these would be interesting and powerful conflicts, full of possibilites for fluff and gaming, but wouldn't disturb the 'eternal war among eternal enemies' equilibrium that makes 40k what it is.

Oh, and where do people get the impression that the Imperium is particularly unified, or that the Xenos focus most of their attention on it? I always saw the Imperium as a giant, civil-war-riddled swiss cheese of authority...at any point, maybe 10-20% of its worlds seem to be in active or passive revolt, and many of its campaigns are bringing its own into the fold. And the Xenos...well, I know the Ork warlord will attack whatever promises a fight nearby, whether it has pointy ears or not, and the Necrons dislike anything with a body temprature. So why the impression these types would go 'primarily' after the Imperium.

The 40k world is already chaotic enough -- it seems very Hobbes, 'war of all against all', to me. Just explore and move forward the interesting parts of that chaos.

-Adso

The_Patriot
28-10-2007, 12:31
I am firmly against those that seem to equate advancing the storyline with basically upsetting the entire universe. There are far more inventive ways to explore each race beyond cliche and ham-fisted ways like throwing in Primarchs or Emperor awakening or other equally massive and therefore impossible changes. That's how 40K advanced in the past, and it didn't make things stale. Background for each of the races was added on to in small steps and layers like sediment.

SM vs. SM or even SM vs. IG is easily justifiable actually, and without invoking the boogeyman of Chaos or actual outright schism and civil war. It's just that GW doesn't explore it too often. The Imperium is a place of rampant fanaticism. All it takes is one group to think itself purer or more important than the others. You already have potential groups like the Dark Angels, Iron Hands, Marines Malevolent, or Black Templars for example. All of them profess loyalty to the Emperor, but they may disagree on what is the best path, and some of these groups have outright contempt for normal humans and their "weakness." Likewise, IG or Inquisitorial forces might be mobilized to rein in Chapters that have grown too independent.

Except, that it's already cliched and ham fisted in how they are currently advancing the storyline. A stalemate can only last so long before the universe itself stagnates and dies. At certain points it is perfectly acceptable to bring out major changes as long as serves an overall purpose. The goal stated by GW was that no army would be dropped since Squats were killed off. The only way to advance the storyline would not be worst case scenarios for each race, but rather a mix of best and worst case scenarios.

An example would be the Emperor waking up/being reborn and the Imperium is plunged into open civil war with one side being for the Emperor and the other side against him.

Hive fleet Kraken is destroyed, but another hive fleet slams into another section of the Imperium. This forces the Imperials a choice between fighting each other or fighting against a common foe.

The Eldar successfully reclaim several worlds in the Eye of Terror or have figured out a way to reverse their dying race. Now, they're at a status quo and making headway towards growth. They could possibly set up an alliance with the Emperor and his forces to counter act the side that stands against him.

As you can see there is a variety of ways of handling major advancements that shake up the world, but in a good way.

Ktotwf
28-10-2007, 12:32
Oh, and where do people get the impression that the Imperium is particularly unified

Unified isn't the right word. But the fluff seems to indicate that the Crusades of St. Macharius were a defining moment for the 41st milennium that healed many of the mental wounds left over from the Age of Apostasy.


The Imperium needed such a man at that time, as it stood on the threshold of greatness once again. The Apostasies had passed, the Treaty of Ceres had reunited Earth and Mars once again and the Conclave of Mount Amalath was witness to such great promises. He was the man to fulfil those promises, to stretch out the Emperor's grasp once more. It was he who dragged the reborn Imperium through the fires of battle, screaming a new birth cry as its golden age came about, the zenith of Mankind's power.


So why the impression these types would go 'primarily' after the Imperium.


Fluff distortion. 99% of the stories are about Humans vs. Someone, and there are SO few examples of pure Xenos vs. Xenos or Xenos vs. Chaos stories. If THEY are happening, I want to read about them damnit!

Iracundus
28-10-2007, 12:34
The Imperium gets set up as the punching bag partly fluffwise because humanity are portrayed as the second most numerous race of the Milky Way galaxy (Orks coming first, and Tyranids being extragalactic), and the Imperium though fractured is still more coherent than the Ork race. From a metagaming perspective, it's from the sheer number of Imperial lists. That said though, I'd like to see them focus more on some alien vs. alien battle reports and background. The Tyranid vs. Ork conflict introduced in the Tyranid Codex therefore is a nice addition.

Indrid Khold
28-10-2007, 12:40
I wholeheartedly concur that there needs to be a lot more fluff that the Imperials aren't even a part of.

The Eldar, for example, are supposed to be waging near constant war with their Great Enemy. Even if one accepts that their "war" more often than not uses proxies rather than straight Aspect Warrior vs. Chaos Marine battle, I'd still like to hear about it a bit more!

Or tell us about the Tau fighting their first huge engagement with the Necrons (which I understand is implied in the Apocalypse book). Or show us Dark Eldar trying to gather Ork slaves off a Waaagh! flagship.

All that would be far more interesting that the Imperium yet again fighting a desperate last stand somewhere and A) winning against all odds or B) going down fighting.

BrotherAdso
28-10-2007, 12:46
Oh yeah, all kinds of interesting Xenos on Xenos action out there that's not covered. For example, what happens when that Craftworld runs into a drifting Ork Hulk? Aspect Warriors versus Nobz....IN SPACE! Or maybe when the Tau discover a beautiful virgin world for colonization...and are met a few years later by Eldar defending one of their Maidenworlds? Do the Tau try to negotiate or...? What about the ongoing Ork-Tyranid slugfest instigated by Kryptmann? Sorry...my imagination is running about how a non-Imperiocentric story could work into the larger 40k story.

-Adso

Ktotwf
28-10-2007, 12:48
I always thought the Tau-Eldar relationship was summed up beautifully in Dawn of War

"War against the Greater Good is never justified."

"Naive child."

:p

Iracundus
28-10-2007, 12:48
If you dig deep into the old fluff, including some of the old Epic stuff, you will find detailed background pieces and stories such as Eldar vs. Orks, or Eldar vs. Chaos. Not one Imperial human in sight.

Colonel Stagler
28-10-2007, 12:52
Yeah i would like to see it move forward a bit, it wouldnt have to change its name or anything, since it would still be set in the 40 000s

Kage2020
28-10-2007, 15:26
For me, it's already 007.M42. ;)

Kage

LordXaras
28-10-2007, 19:11
Commenting on the original post, I've never really understood the idea of "OMG! IT'S M42! WE NEED TO CHANGE THE NAME OF THE GAME!". The game is called Warhammer 40k. The setting is between the year 30 000 and an undefined point in the future. The "present" GW portrays is now M42 (or should be, if GW weren't such wimps when it came to moving their setting ahead). As far as I can recall, the setting has pretty much always been in the 900's of M41 so it was only a matter of time before there had to be a millenium change.

Green-is-best
28-10-2007, 19:32
That sounds a lot like a reverse Return of Kerensky ie Return of the Clans from Battletech.

There does need to be a major shake up since the setting is stagnating. However, I would do it through an online campaign and use the standing of the various armies to determine where the setting goes.

Oh yeah, I forgot about that. Those Clans and their damned guided missiles!

But that's actually a great example. The introduction of the Clans reinvigorated the Battletech franchise when it was beginning to get dull. I've been into 40k for almost 20 years, and while I still love the setting, it does get a little tiresome to see the same second edition races + Dark Eldar and Tau duking it out over and over again for the same stuff. 3 Armageddon wars? Come ON!

Tanith Ghost
28-10-2007, 21:32
I'd love to see more Dark Eldar raids on the tau. Those blue shrimps have no clue just how bad it is when the DE come knocking.:evilgrin:

Indrid Khold
28-10-2007, 21:35
I'd love to see more Dark Eldar raids on the tau. Those blue shrimps have no clue just how bad it is when the DE come knocking.:evilgrin:

Word.


Where's your Greater Good when a Sybarite with an agoniser is literally carving you out of your silly little armored suit?

LexxBomb
29-10-2007, 08:42
i must be getting old because i can see that GW has brought the story own. feth the Inquisition now has 3 branches. originaly you had the inquisition and then the Ordo Malleus was a small secret group within the Inquisition. there was no xeno inquisition or hereticus Inquisition. an inquisitor did both.

the Squats Home Worlds got ate..... isn't that moving the stoyline on. they killed off a major race.

and as regaring wh41k GW will only have to worry when the dates get close to 50k