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Ktotwf
28-10-2007, 05:12
I have always kind of wondered this.

I mean, obviously they aren't going to be conducting tourists groups into the Sanctum Imperialis, but...the guy is technically the Emperor of Mankind, and no one has seen him for thousands of years?

You'd think they would at least let the Lords of Terra in or something.

Maybe its because it would be really gruesome and weird to see how decrepit and skeletal Big E looks nowadays?

azimaith
28-10-2007, 05:14
There theories I know are:
1: Cause hes dead and been dead for millenia and its all a sham for the High Lords of Terra to maintain control.
2: It would destroy the sanctity of his throne room to allow anyone else in.
3: People are, its just kept on the down low.

The Emperor, from what I understand isn't actually sitting outside the golden throne, hes inside the machine, its not really a throne, its a complex life support machine with the Emperors withered form within eating psykers.

Ktotwf
28-10-2007, 05:18
There theories I know are:
1: Cause hes dead and been dead for millenia and its all a sham for the High Lords of Terra to maintain control.

Would anyone really be able to tell the difference between someone on Life Support in a coma and someone on Life Support who is dead?



The Emperor, from what I understand isn't actually sitting outside the golden throne, hes inside the machine, its not really a throne, its a complex life support machine with the Emperors withered form within eating psykers.

In the 3rd Edition picture of the Golden Throne, it LOOKED like a Throne, IIRC. In the Rogue Trader picture it looked like an Iron Lung.

Vaulkhar
28-10-2007, 05:27
It's number 3. The Companions of the Adeptus Custodes (basically their equivalent of a 1st company) are the only ones allowed into the Emperor's presence on a regular basis. There have been exceptions, probably the most famous being Alicia Domenica and a few other Brides of the Emperor at the very end of the Apostasy. It's not known what was said or done in there, but they promptly killed Vandire (who had possibly the best 40K exit line ever). The other possible exception is, of course, Jaq Draco.

As regards the whole 'plugged in' thing, the HH artwork shows the Throne itself, with the portal behind and the machinery behind and above. There's also a bit of flavour text from the 2nd edition (Wargear book, I think) referring to the Custodes collecting the tears the Emperor weeps in a golden chalice. Which rather suggests that you can still see his body, it's just got rather a lot of wires, pipes and other things shoved into various sensitive places.

Ktotwf
28-10-2007, 05:33
I had the idea that what the Brides of the Emperor saw when they went into the Golden Throne Room was the Emperor with tears coming down his cheeks or something.

Maybe tears of blood.

Although it would be totally badass if Big E actually said something, like I could see him in raspy tones saying something like "Kill him" in a barely audible voice.

Alessander
28-10-2007, 05:36
3rd ed rulebook had a pic of him on the throne on the first couple pages. shrivelled looking guy.

Either he's dead, or as he can't move or communicate, anyone looking at him would think he's dead. Faith in a god would fail if you saw him in a corpse-like state..

Ktotwf
28-10-2007, 05:38
Either he's dead, or as he can't move or communicate, anyone looking at him would think he's dead. Faith in a god would fail if you saw him in a corpse-like state..

Would it though? There are descriptions in Fire Warrior of Imperial Icons showing the Emperor as a shrivelled ass corpse on the Golden Throne.

The main Tau character is rather taken aback and concludes that the Emperor is some sort of perverse Gargoyle God, and that he and the Gue'la deserve each other.

I think the fact that he looks so shrivelled and corpse like is just part of his "Suffering God" motif.

Noserenda
28-10-2007, 05:56
But what would people _do_ in there? Id suspect just in case the answer is "roll a vortex grenade" visitors are kept to a minimum...

Although in Draco there are various folks hanging around.

legio mortis
28-10-2007, 05:58
I think the fact that he looks so shrivelled and corpse like is just part of his "Suffering God" motif.
Makes sense. Sort of like the Christ on a Cross thing that Christianity has.

Ktotwf
28-10-2007, 06:01
But what would people _do_ in there? Id suspect just in case the answer is "roll a vortex grenade" visitors are kept to a minimum...



Its a good question.

I imagine there is a ritualized court system among the 300 AC in there that would make Versailles look like a loose jam session.

Khaine's Messenger
28-10-2007, 06:19
But what would people _do_ in there?

Talk at the drooling idiot with the lame excuse of being granted an audience by the most powerful mortal to ever walk the galaxy (+/- some degree of error), making it seem like he's actually giving their decisions his blessing. Mostly just showy, self-validating things. They won't say so, and given the description of events in Draco there could be more of a reason based on how the Emperor seems to control his immediate demesne, but if one wants to be cynical....

DantesInferno
28-10-2007, 06:24
I have always kind of wondered this.

I mean, obviously they aren't going to be conducting tourists groups into the Sanctum Imperialis, but...the guy is technically the Emperor of Mankind, and no one has seen him for thousands of years?

You'd think they would at least let the Lords of Terra in or something.

Maybe its because it would be really gruesome and weird to see how decrepit and skeletal Big E looks nowadays?

In general, what would the point of letting in people to see the Emperor be?

Gorbad Ironclaw
28-10-2007, 06:45
Although in Draco there are various folks hanging around.


But Draco(and the whole inquisitor war series) generally is so far out as to exist in it's own paralel version of the 40k universe. I know it's an old story, but as I remember it, it's strange even by those standards. I wouldn't take anything said in those books as an indication of anything outside of them.

Inquisitor_Matt
28-10-2007, 07:19
If you turn to the first page of the 40k rule book, one that begins with "for more than a hundred centuries...", you can see the Emperor faded in the background behind the words.

Ktotwf
28-10-2007, 07:27
In general, what would the point of letting in people to see the Emperor be?

Unlike most religions, their God actually exists.

There are people in 40k (that one guy from Last Chancers comes to mind) who doubt the EXISTENCE of the Emperor.

The Emperor's body is the "supreme holy relic" if you will, and thus kind of important.

I really want to know WHY, in your thinking, they WOULDN'T let people in to see. I mean, he is their "sovereign" after all.

DantesInferno
28-10-2007, 07:39
Unlike most religions, their God actually exists.

There are people in 40k (that one guy from Last Chancers comes to mind) who doubt the EXISTENCE of the Emperor.

The Emperor's body is the "supreme holy relic" if you will, and thus kind of important.

I really want to know WHY, in your thinking, they WOULDN'T let people in to see. I mean, he is their "sovereign" after all.

Well, the people who doubt the existence of the Emperor aren't likely to be on Terra, the spiritual home of Humanity, a planet filled with pilgrims and Imperial officials. They aren't likely to be high enough on the Imperial hierarchy to be remotely considered for being brought before the Emperor. And if they are, I don't think seeing a big life-support machine is going to help. If any of the Emperor's body is visible, it's not going to be a pretty sight after 10 000 years.

It's much more simple to kill the unbelievers than bring them all the way to Terra, make them wait 700 years in a queue, go through all the security checks, then finally bring them into the Emperor's antechamber.

As to why you wouldn't let people in, there are a few reasons:
1) It's going to be massively expensive to perform security checks on the billions of people who arrive on Terra hoping to see the Palace.
2) It's going to be of limited utility: only the most committed religious diehards are going to come all the way, it's going to be preaching to the converted in a very real sense.
3) The Custodes only power in the Imperial structure comes from them being the only people with access to the Emperor. If they just let anyone in, what's the point of having them as an organisation?

Ktotwf
28-10-2007, 07:45
Well, the people who doubt the existence of the Emperor aren't likely to be on Terra, the spiritual home of Humanity, a planet filled with pilgrims and Imperial officials. They aren't likely to be high enough on the Imperial hierarchy to be remotely considered for being brought before the Emperor. And if they are, I don't think seeing a big life-support machine is going to help. If any of the Emperor's body is visible, it's not going to be a pretty sight after 10 000 years.

You are misinterpreting here a wee bit. I am not suggesting that every guy who says "I don't believe in the Emperor" gets marched through the Eternity Gate.

You are shortshrifting simple human psychology here a bit...

Take real life religion here as an example. Even Mother Teresa had religious doubts. You think if she had been able to actually look on Christ as he suffered on the Cross it wouldn't have wiped away her doubts and focused her mind a little bit?

Believing is one thing, but seeing is an entirely different thing. I mean, look at what actually looking upon the Emperor did for the proto Sisters of Battle that did it? And they were insanely super religious anyway.

I mean, in a society like the Imperium, senior politicians would give their left nut to be able to get an audience with the Emperor. It would be a huge legitimizing thing.

Hiding the Emperor away just creates an even greater air of fiction around his "rule" over the Imperium, even if it does simultaneously create an even greater air of mystery and eliteness.

Vaulkhar
28-10-2007, 07:54
It's worth noting that anyone in the Imperium who questioned the existence of the Emperor and was foolish enough to do so in public would have their doubts rapidly assauged by being sent to receive his judgement*. Once the Ecclesiarchy were done persuading them of their error, of course.



*As the old assassin's maxim has it, 'Only in Death can you receive the Emperor's judgement'.

Ktotwf
28-10-2007, 08:15
Uh, if someone has been dead for several millenia, trust me, you can tell the difference between him and someone on life support. Or should I say it, because theres going to be very little if anything left after decay.


Okay, but I am not willing to accept the idea that he is "dead" in any sense other than "braindead." When we say he could be dead, we don't mean like dead dead. He would be still a functioning being.

Although, I think he is still technically alive, and that his "consciousness" is functioning.

Edit:Where the hell did his post go?

DantesInferno
28-10-2007, 08:17
You are misinterpreting here a wee bit. I am not suggesting that every guy who says "I don't believe in the Emperor" gets marched through the Eternity Gate.

You are shortshrifting simple human psychology here a bit...

Take real life religion here as an example. Even Mother Teresa had religious doubts. You think if she had been able to actually look on Christ as he suffered on the Cross it wouldn't have wiped away her doubts and focused her mind a little bit?

Believing is one thing, but seeing is an entirely different thing. I mean, look at what actually looking upon the Emperor did for the proto Sisters of Battle that did it? And they were insanely super religious anyway.

I mean, in a society like the Imperium, senior politicians would give their left nut to be able to get an audience with the Emperor. It would be a huge legitimizing thing.

Hiding the Emperor away just creates an even greater air of fiction around his "rule" over the Imperium, even if it does simultaneously create an even greater air of mystery and eliteness.

While it may very well be useful in individual cases to allow people to see the Emperor, it's not going to be a very good thing overall.

There are probably millions of what you'd describe as "senior politicians" on Terra. Allowing some of them access to see the Emperor might indeed improve the devotion of those politicians. But it's going to set off a wave of competition as the rest stab each other in the back for a chance to see the inside of the Palace. Even if they're not religious fanatics, the benefits to your career, position in Imperial society, even the position of your descendants are going to be powerful motivating factors for people desperately fighting each other for a chance to be brought before the Emperor.

And there's certainly no guarantee that everyone who gets taken before the Golden Throne is going to have some sort of epiphany and raise their devotion to the God-Emperor to even greater heights. It's perfectly conceivable that some are going to become rather disillusioned when they see exactly what is at the heart of their government and religion. Why provoke such a reaction by taking people before the God-Emperor?

The main point is that the Custodes and Ecclesiarchy gain a huge amount of power from the extremely limited access to the Emperor. If you open it up to the masses of eager politicians, you've completely eroded the political clout of the Custodes, who determine who, if anyone, can come before the Emperor. And you've comprehensively weakened the Ecclesiarchy, who can no longer really claim to have a special insight into the Emperor's divinity.


Okay, but I am not willing to accept the idea that he is "dead" in any sense other than "braindead." When we say he could be dead, we don't mean like dead dead. He would be still a functioning being.

Although, I think he is still technically alive, and that his "consciousness" is functioning.

So how is bringing people before him going to help? Even if he isn't really "dead dead", you can bet some people are going to get that impression if they see a dessicated, immobile lifeless body on a throne.

Ktotwf
28-10-2007, 08:21
The main point is that the Custodes and Ecclesiarchy gain a huge amount of power from the extremely limited access to the Emperor. If you open it up to the masses of eager politicians, you've completely eroded the political clout of the Custodes, who determine who, if anyone, can come before the Emperor. And you've comprehensively weakened the Ecclesiarchy, who can no longer really claim to have a special insight into the Emperor's divinity.

THAT is a good point. The Custodes can hold the whole "We are the only ones who can see the Emperor" thing over everyone's head. It is really their only bargaining point or source of prestige - after all, they haven't done jack in a long time.

Although I don't buy the point about the Ecclesiarchy. I don't really see WHY it would reduce any of their clout.



So how is bringing people before him going to help? Even if he isn't really "dead dead", you can bet some people are going to get that impression if they see a dessicated, immobile lifeless body on a throne.

The general public KNOWS that the Emperor is "dead." The image of his dessicated creepy corpse on the Golden Throne is common religious fodder. Icons are made of his image, and I am pretty damn sure they aren't icons of how he looked in the "OMG HORUS I'M DECKED OUT IN GOLD" picture we have all seen a trillion times.

LexxBomb
28-10-2007, 08:22
1. certain people are actually allowed to visit the throne room. it just doesn't happen very much.
2. he is most defenetly alive as he sheds a single tear for x number of troops lost in battle. during a crusade is is constantly crying and his tears are used to create pysk-out Grenades.

Ktotwf
28-10-2007, 08:23
2. he is most defenetly alive as he sheds a single tear for x number of troops lost in battle. during a crusade is is constantly crying and his tears are used to create pysk-out Grenades.

Please tell me that is true. That would make my day.

DantesInferno
28-10-2007, 08:35
THAT is a good point. The Custodes can hold the whole "We are the only ones who can see the Emperor" thing over everyone's head. It is really their only bargaining point or source of prestige - after all, they haven't done jack in a long time.

Although I don't buy the point about the Ecclesiarchy. I don't really see WHY it would reduce any of their clout.

The Ecclesiarchy have an official monopoly over authorised religion in the Imperium. Their claim to power is that they're the only ones who can give you spiritual access to the Emperor. It's the only chance you have at reaching your God: they've got the definitive version.

Their position is undermined a bit if powerful politicians (of the organisations competing with the Ecclesiarchy within the Imperium's power structure, I might add) can check out the Emperor for himself. What if it turned out that their experiences were completely different to what the Ecclesiarchy had led them to believe?


2. he is most defenetly alive as he sheds a single tear for x number of troops lost in battle. during a crusade is is constantly crying and his tears are used to create pysk-out Grenades.

This could be in the same sense that there were, in the churches of the Middle Ages, enough pieces of the True Cross to build a ship....

Ktotwf
28-10-2007, 08:38
Their position is undermined a bit if powerful politicians (of the organisations competing with the Ecclesiarchy within the Imperium's power structure, I might add) can check out the Emperor for himself. What if it turned out that their experiences were completely different to what the Ecclesiarchy had led them to believe?


Yeah, but what experiences would they have though? The Emperor isn't going to talk to them (unless he talks to them psychically, which is very possible)

I don't understand how seeing it would alter anyone's religious point of view? You would just see exactly what the Ecclesiarchy told you was there...a God suffering eternally for the good of mankind.

I want to understand what you are getting at...but I don't see the meat of this point.


This could be in the same sense that there were, in the churches of the Middle Ages, enough pieces of the True Cross to build a ship....

Yes, but blowing people up with the Emperor's tears is SOOOO 40k.

DantesInferno
28-10-2007, 08:47
Yeah, but what experiences would they have though? The Emperor isn't going to talk to them (unless he talks to them psychically, which is very possible)

I don't understand how seeing it would alter anyone's religious point of view? You would just see exactly what the Ecclesiarchy told you was there...a God suffering eternally for the good of mankind.

I want to understand what you are getting at...but I don't see the meat of this point.

Suppose seeing the Emperor can alter people's religious points of view, in which case they might have different experiences to what the Ecclesiarchy has been telling people. If this is the case, the Ecclesiarchy is going to get very nervous if various accounts of the Emperor's nature are getting passed around in the various competing organisations on Terra. For instance, people might think that the Emperor is actually dead, despite all the life support systems rigged up. They might think they hear the Emperor telling them to start up an organisation to rival the Ecclesiachy, take away lots of its money, or what have you. In this case, you can be sure that the Ecclesiarchy would want to be restricting access to the Golden Throne as much as possible.

On the other hand, if seeing the Emperor isn't going to alter anyone's religious points of view, what's going to be the point of taking people to see him?

Shockwave
28-10-2007, 08:48
Though i have read books in the past on the subject i can not recall their titles (It was 15+ years ago).

Typically it is only the Adeptus Custodes that are allowed in the throne room and to look upon the Emperor of Mankind. The High lords of Terra are NOT allowed to see the Emperor.

With ONE possible exception if memory serves. The captain of the Custodes can be voted for the 13 High lord position (Along with a few others whom i can't recall) and being a member of the Adeptus Custodes he is allowed in the throne room. Though he might have to relinquish that right if he becomes a high lord.

Ktotwf
28-10-2007, 08:51
Suppose seeing the Emperor can alter people's religious points of view, in which case they might have different experiences to what the Ecclesiarchy has been telling people. If this is the case, the Ecclesiarchy is going to get very nervous if various accounts of the Emperor's nature are getting passed around in the various competing organisations on Terra. For instance, people might think that the Emperor is actually dead, despite all the life support systems rigged up. They might think they hear the Emperor telling them to start up an organisation to rival the Ecclesiachy, take away lots of its money, or what have you. In this case, you can be sure that the Ecclesiarchy would want to be restricting access to the Golden Throne as much as possible.

Alright, I see what you are getting at here I think. It gives too many people a sense of religious entitlement or special "access" to the Emperor.


On the other hand, if seeing the Emperor isn't going to alter anyone's religious points of view, what's going to be the point of taking people to see him?

It isn't necessarily meant to ALTER their religious point of view, as much as be the biggest possible REAFFIRMATION of the reality of their situation.

That, and the political symbolism that would be inherent in having the High Lords prostrate themselves in front of the Emperor would be wonderful PR for everyone involved. Great Photo ops.

Vaulkhar
28-10-2007, 09:09
As far as the tears of the Emperor go - he sheds a single tear for every human warrior killed in battle. The Custodes collect these tears and put them into phials the size of the tip of the smallest finger - and even then one such phial contains thousands of individual tears.

The exact properties of the tears are unknown, but the 2nd edition fluff notes that there are few talismans as powerful and that they are suffused with His might. So think Greater Daemon-be-gone as a starting point.

Ktotwf
28-10-2007, 09:10
As far as the tears of the Emperor go - he sheds a single tear for every human warrior killed in battle. The Custodes collect these tears and put them into phials the size of the tip of the smallest finger - and even then one such phial contains thousands of individual tears.

The exact properties of the tears are unknown, but the 2nd edition fluff notes that there are few talismans as powerful and that they are suffused with His might. So think Greater Daemon-be-gone as a starting point.

That is badass beyond words, lol. :D

LexxBomb
28-10-2007, 09:13
why cant i find the original Assassins codex that came in white dwarf 10 years ago or my Realms of Chaos book.
anyway here's evidence from the 2nd ed wargear book regarding the emperor crying.





"warhammer is a trade Mark of Games Workshop" and any scans images are used only as evidence in "Fluff" terms and shouldn't be seens as any attempt to beak such CopyWrite.

Ktotwf
28-10-2007, 09:17
The Emperor must be dehydrated by now.

I wish so hard that there were rules for a vial of the Emperor's tears. It should be like a Pie Plate of Insta-Demon death.

LexxBomb
28-10-2007, 09:30
well the collexus assassin has pyskout grenades and they are made from the vials and wasn't the vial in Inqusitor.

Ktotwf
28-10-2007, 09:32
well the collexus assassin has pyskout grenades

Are psykout grenades particularly powerful? I don't know much about them or the Collexus Assassins.

Vaulkhar
28-10-2007, 09:42
Blast template of psyker death IIRC. They're basically frag grenades laced with a peculiar dust that the Throne produces as a byproduct (don't think too closely about that particular detail).

Current rules are a 6" assault 1 attack. If you hit the psyker, then it has to take an Ld test, losing 1 wound for every point by which the test is failed. Saves may be taken as normal.

azimaith
28-10-2007, 09:56
So it essentially is saying the Emperor is a crybaby? (Sorry I couldn't resist tweaking the imperium lovers)

Biomass Denial
28-10-2007, 10:56
It so they dont trip over the very important power cord at the back. *nods*

Iracundus
28-10-2007, 11:18
There ARE rules for the Emperor's tears. They appeared in the 2nd ed. of the Sisters of Battle Codex (p. 43). They were basically cheap one use grenade equivalent, that wounded Daemons on a fixed 4+ and bypassed their Daemonic Aura save. In essence, they were like holy water.

These were distinct from the psyk-out grenades which as mentioned by another poster were made from a black dust produced by the Golden Throne as part of the Emperor's metabolism. These were especially harmful to psykers, as the dust was supposedly charged with "negative" psychic energy. What exactly that is isn't exactly specified, but based on later background on Pariahs, it sounds like it basically is dust with a Pariah like effect on the warp.

DantesInferno
28-10-2007, 11:56
There ARE rules for the Emperor's tears. They appeared in the 2nd ed. of the Sisters of Battle Codex (p. 43). They were basically cheap one use grenade equivalent, that wounded Daemons on a fixed 4+ and bypassed their Daemonic Aura save. In essence, they were like holy water.

And of course there are numerous possible explanations of why grenades supposedly created from the Emperor's tears would have an effect on Daemons.

It doesn't have to be anything about the tears themselves: a bit like the Acts of Faith the Sororitas perform, it could be an exercise of latent psychic power brought forth from the extreme emotion the Sisters generate through their belief in the Emperor.

Ktotwf
28-10-2007, 11:57
It doesn't have to be anything about the tears themselves: a bit like the Acts of Faith the Sororitas perform, it could be an exercise of latent psychic power brought forth from the extreme emotion the Sisters generate through their belief in the Emperor.

Or alternatively it could be what the Fluff says it is. But, you know, thats crazy talk.

The_Patriot
28-10-2007, 12:01
And of course there are numerous possible explanations of why grenades supposedly created from the Emperor's tears would have an effect on Daemons.

It doesn't have to be anything about the tears themselves: a bit like the Acts of Faith the Sororitas perform, it could be an exercise of latent psychic power brought forth from the extreme emotion the Sisters generate through their belief in the Emperor.

Except there is a minor flaw in your statement. Sisters of Battle are partial blanks and the fluff states that blanks, even partial ones, are unable to use psychic powers.

DantesInferno
28-10-2007, 12:03
Except there is a minor flaw in your statement. Sisters of Battle are partial blanks and the fluff states that blanks, even partial ones, are unable to use psychic powers.

Hmmm? Sisters of Battle are selected from the Schola Progenium as young girls on the basis of faith and skill at arms. They're not part of a special project to seek out partial blanks. Why would they be psychically different from normal humans?

Ktotwf
28-10-2007, 12:06
Why would they be psychically different from normal humans?

Good point. Why would they all be latent psykers when the Psyker gene is so exceedingly rare?

The_Patriot
28-10-2007, 12:06
Hmmm? Sisters of Battle are selected from the Schola Progenium as young girls on the basis of faith and skill at arms. They're not part of a special project to seek out partial blanks. Why would they be psychically different from normal humans?

Shield of Faith rules for starters and their representation in fluff. Only blanks/partial blanks are immune to psychic powers and weapons. Also blanks/partial blanks are unable to use psychic powers themselves even if it's latent due to them having no connection to the warp.

Iracundus
28-10-2007, 12:10
The Shield of Faith rules do not mention their immunity as being due to being blanks or Pariahs. There is no objective background reason given for that. It can be attributable to protection by the Emperor/Star Child or it can equally be attributed to an unconscious use of the miniscule psychic ability of the common human, focused by their faith.

DantesInferno
28-10-2007, 12:12
Good point. Why would they all be latent psykers when the Psyker gene is so exceedingly rare?

All humans (except Pariahs and blanks) have a psychic presence in the Warp. Psykers are generally those who have some form of control over their powers. But there are a huge number of humans who can manifest psychic activity unconsciously: they might seem to have a knack for psychology, luck at card games and so on. Psychic connections would be presumably strengthened where there's a lot of emotion or belief flowing around (this is what powers the Warp, after all).

The Psyker gene isn't a yes/no thing. It's a scale from negative (Pariah) to zero (blank) to small positive (normal human) to strong positive (human psyker). And obviously there's gradation within each of those categories too.

Grimtuff
28-10-2007, 12:15
I wish so hard that there were rules for a vial of the Emperor's tears. It should be like a Pie Plate of Insta-Demon death.

There were. They were in the 2nd edition Sisters codex, they were a one use only item called "Tears of the Emperor". It thrown like a grenade

I'll have to dig out my old SOB book and take a look.

Ktotwf
28-10-2007, 12:15
That still makes it sound unlikely that ALL Sisters of Battles have a decent enough presence in the Warp to effect reality in the way that the Faith Point powers do.

The_Patriot
28-10-2007, 12:15
The Shield of Faith rules do not mention their immunity as being due to being blanks or Pariahs. There is no objective background reason given for that. It can be attributable to protection by the Emperor/Star Child or it can equally be attributed to an unconscious use of the miniscule psychic ability of the common human, focused by their faith.

Their rules also don't mention that it's due to their faith in the Emperor. It's one of the great unanswerable questions of 40k. There are a lot of people who have faith in the Emperor as god, but why is it that only Sisters can display Acts of Faith? Why are they the only ones to be afforded protection from the warp due to faith? This can be a whole can of worms with neither side coming to any agreement.

Indrid Khold
28-10-2007, 12:23
I don't know ... there's faith and then there's FAITH.

I think the Sisters of Battle are probably THE most devoted followers of the Imperial Cult, and I could see how that much belief-mojo could manifest itself in the Warp as Acts of Faith (and remember, each time something happens, that faith just gets stronger).

Ktotwf
28-10-2007, 12:26
I think you could probably make the case that the Grey Knights or the Custodes are the most devoted, but what you say definitely makes sense if one wants to explore down that route.

Agrip. Varenus Denter
28-10-2007, 12:31
There theories I know are:
1: Cause hes dead and been dead for millenia and its all a sham for the High Lords of Terra to maintain control.


This is the one that I really personally like. I am convinced that it's the High Lords' way of maintaining control over the Imperum and is nothing more than that.

I can however see merit in the argument that there is no logical reason to allow the average Joe into the presence of the Emperor, regardless of him being "alive" or not. Taking into account all Fluff-based hints that the big guy is in fact Jesus and is therefore God himself... it may be more than a normal individual could withstand emotionally or physically - and devout or not - who decides that they are worthy enough to stand in the presence of the Emperor of Man?

Anyway, my own personal beliefs (or lack thereof) aside, there's more fluffy goodness to support the latter of the above two arguments and as long as that exists - so be it. Amen and all that.

Ktotwf
28-10-2007, 12:34
This is the one that I really personally like. I am convinced that it's the High Lords' way of maintaining control over the Imperum and is nothing more than that.


This argument is too simple and goes against established fluff...unless you want to throw all 3rd person references up for questioning...and then you undermine the entire Fluff.

DantesInferno
28-10-2007, 12:34
That still makes it sound unlikely that ALL Sisters of Battles have a decent enough presence in the Warp to effect reality in the way that the Faith Point powers do.

Well, perhaps. Though keep in mind that the Sisters are really, really, really emotionally invested in their Faith. And no doubt there are subtle "evolutionary" pressures on Sisters which ensure that a significant number of their number can manifest the required Acts. Sisters who "the Emperor doesn't protect" get shot, after all.


Their rules also don't mention that it's due to their faith in the Emperor. It's one of the great unanswerable questions of 40k. There are a lot of people who have faith in the Emperor as god, but why is it that only Sisters can display Acts of Faith? Why are they the only ones to be afforded protection from the warp due to faith? This can be a whole can of worms with neither side coming to any agreement.

The Sisters are the only people who get a rules benefit for their Faith, you mean. Sebastian Thor wasn't a Sister of Battle, but he managed one of the greatest Acts of Faith of them all. There are plenty of examples of the Emperor's faithful doing extraordinary things in the background. The question is: how do they do them?

Indrid Khold
28-10-2007, 12:35
I think you could probably make the case that the Grey Knights or the Custodes are the most devoted, but what you say definitely makes sense if one wants to explore down that route.


I'd say that, ironically, the Grey Knights and Custodes actually know too much of the truth to have warp powers like the Sisters of Battle. The SoB believe in the dogma of the Imperial Cult as it is fed to them by the Ecclesiarchy, without ever getting any of the behind-the-scenes knowledge that I assume all Grey Knights and Custodes get. Thus their blind faith generates a greater Warp reaction.

But I'm just talking here. Just a theory. I don't even play Imperials.

Iracundus
28-10-2007, 12:40
The Grey Knights do have protection against warp powers. This is partly from their equipment but can also be attributed to their faith.

The Black Templars with their vow giving them protection vs. psychic powers is a further example of otherwise "ordinary" individuals getting limited warp power protection. Note also they are a highly religious Chapter that seems to follow much of the standard Ecclesiarchy party line.

Indrid Khold
28-10-2007, 12:42
Well there you go, then. :)

The_Patriot
28-10-2007, 12:47
I'd say that, ironically, the Grey Knights and Custodes actually know too much of the truth to have warp powers like the Sisters of Battle. The SoB believe in the dogma of the Imperial Cult as it is fed to them by the Ecclesiarchy, without ever getting any of the behind-the-scenes knowledge that I assume all Grey Knights and Custodes get. Thus their blind faith generates a greater Warp reaction.

But I'm just talking here. Just a theory. I don't even play Imperials.

Well the problem is that the Sisters know exactly what's what with the Emperor as they were led before him during the Age of Apostasy.

Two schools of thought on this:

1. The Emperor is the star child and has been partially reborn in the Warp and funnels his powers into the Sisters since they are partial blanks. Maybe they're protected from the Chaotic side of the warp due to their blank status and can only be affected by the non-Chaotic side which the star child most definitely resides in.

2. The Sisters have latent psyker powers that are more powerful then what has been seen in humanity and it stems from the non-Chaotic side of the warp. Normal psykers tap into the Chaotic side of the warp.

I'm leaning towards number one personally since Custodians have great faith in the Emperor, but are unable to use Acts of Faith and are subject to psyker powers/weapons.

Agrip. Varenus Denter
28-10-2007, 12:49
This argument is too simple and goes against established fluff...unless you want to throw all 3rd person references up for questioning...and then you undermine the entire Fluff.

No, no - I realize that, K. I went on to give credit to the established fluffy goodness as being pretty much unquestionable... I was just waxing personally in my first statement.

Ktotwf
28-10-2007, 12:51
No, no - I realize that, K. I went on to give credit to the established fluffy goodness as being pretty much unquestionable... I was just waxing personally in my first statement.

Oh, I missed that. I feel like a douche now.

Iracundus
28-10-2007, 12:54
There are no rules for the Custodes. They have seen no action since the Heresy. Any speculation on their abilities or vulnerabilities therefore has no supporting evidence.

Once again nowhere is there evidence that the Sisters of Battle are any sort of psychic blanks. There is already ample precedence elsewhere in the 40K universe for ordinary individuals getting warp protection.

One must not be misled into thinking the Sisters "use" Acts of Faith in any conscious manner. The line of thinking that attributes them to unconscious focusing of humanity's latent psychic potential makes use of the key word "unconscious". Likewise the line of thinking that the Star Child gives them some protection is subject to the key bit about the Star Child choosing to do so or not.

The_Patriot
28-10-2007, 13:04
There are no rules for the Custodes. They have seen no action since the Heresy. Any speculation on their abilities or vulnerabilities therefore has no supporting evidence.

Once again nowhere is there evidence that the Sisters of Battle are any sort of psychic blanks. There is already ample precedence elsewhere in the 40K universe for ordinary individuals getting warp protection.

One must not be misled into thinking the Sisters "use" Acts of Faith in any conscious manner. The line of thinking that attributes them to unconscious focusing of humanity's latent psychic potential makes use of the key word "unconscious". Likewise the line of thinking that the Star Child gives them some protection is subject to the key bit about the Star Child choosing to do so or not.

Actually, there is a lot of evidence on what the Custodes do. Their main job is to keep the webway under the palace clear of daemons. Also they've fought along side the Marines during the Great Crusade and to put it bluntly 1 Custodes equals 10 Space Marines in power and ability.

Lack of evidence is not proof of evidence to the contrary. It just is a lack of evidence. There is also a lack of evidence that their abilities come from psychic powers.

See point 2.

Ktotwf
28-10-2007, 13:04
Likewise the line of thinking that the Star Child gives them some protection is subject to the key bit about the Star Child choosing to do so or not.

Use of the Star Child idea should be limited. The Fluff indicates that the Emperor has tremendous psychic abilities and can use them in the real world.

I prefer to think of it as the Emperor on his throne, captivated in body but free in spirit and mind.

Automatically using Star Child brings up too many risky fluff assumptions.

Iracundus
28-10-2007, 13:11
I mentioned Emperor/Star Child earlier and only used the one purely as a means of saving character space. The point remains though, that even if one subscribes to the idea of some greater entity protecting the Sisters, it is subject to this entity's volition about whether or not to do so for any particular instance.

The_Patriot
28-10-2007, 13:15
I mentioned Emperor/Star Child earlier and only used the one purely as a means of saving character space. The point remains though, that even if one subscribes to the idea of some greater entity protecting the Sisters, it is subject to this entity's volition about whether or not to do so for any particular instance.

Which is represented on the tabletop to the whim of the dice which shows if the Sisters have favor or not.

yankeeboy
28-10-2007, 13:18
I'm surprised nobody has mentioned this yet. Besides the fluff that several people have been in the prescence of the Emperor, as well as the tears thing, there's another way we all know the Emperor is not completely dead.

He is the only one that can support and maintain the astronomicon, the guiding beacon for all warp navigation. Were the Emperor actually dead, all warp travel would be hopeless and random throughout the universe for humans.

Iracundus
28-10-2007, 13:19
Not all warp travel. See BFG sources. Other lesser psykers can and do create their own smaller beacons in the warp. Those ships without Navigators can also make small calculated jumps into the warp. The Astronomicon is the largest and greatest warp beacon, but not the only one.

Indrid Khold
28-10-2007, 13:22
I'm surprised nobody has mentioned this yet. Besides the fluff that several people have been in the prescence of the Emperor, as well as the tears thing, there's another way we all know the Emperor is not completely dead.

He is the only one that can support and maintain the astronomicon, the guiding beacon for all warp navigation. Were the Emperor actually dead, all warp travel would be hopeless and random throughout the universe for humans.


Also, who's to say that the Emperor has anything at all to do with the Astronomicon? The Golden Throne itself might project it, without any help from the dessicated husk somebody propped up inside of it 10,000 years ago. Remember that "the emperor," or whatever generates the Astronomicon, needs to be fed a constant stream of souls to keep it active.

It's a healthy ambiguity in the fluff, in my opinion.

DantesInferno
28-10-2007, 13:24
He is the only one that can support and maintain the astronomicon, the guiding beacon for all warp navigation. Were the Emperor actually dead, all warp travel would be hopeless and random throughout the universe for humans.

I'm sure that the continual human sacrifice of thousands of human psykers on Terra does a fairly good job of being a psychic beacon..... I don't think that the Emperor's presence is necessary for keeping navigation in the warp possible.

EDIT: Indrid Khold said it quicker and better :(

The_Patriot
28-10-2007, 13:27
I'm sure that the continual human sacrifice of thousands of human psykers on Terra does a fairly good job of being a psychic beacon..... I don't think that the Emperor's presence is necessary for keeping navigation in the warp possible.

EDIT: Indrid Khold said it quicker and better :(

The main purpose of the Emperor being on the Golden Throne is to keep the seals intact on the webway beneath the palace. The Astronomicon is tied into the Throne so he can do both jobs at one.

DantesInferno
28-10-2007, 13:33
The main purpose of the Emperor being on the Golden Throne is to keep the seals intact on the webway beneath the palace. The Astronomicon is tied into the Throne so he can do both jobs at one.

Sure, that was the initial purpose. But who knows whether it's the Emperor's psychic presence or the sheer volume of psychic energy fed into the Throne by the pyskers' deaths which is doing all the behind-the-scenes "work" involved in keeping the galactic beacon shining and the webway gate in the palace shut?

It's a bit like the Aztecs ripping out people's hearts to keep the sun rising. As far as they're concerned, it's the killing which is keeping the sun turning up each morning, and it's too great a risk to stop: you don't want to be the guy who ended the world by stopping the human sacrifices, after all.....

LexxBomb
28-10-2007, 14:50
also the astronomicon was established after the Emperor was put on the throne from memory.

Richter Kless
28-10-2007, 15:28
What I find odd in these discussions about religion, is that people always give this psykeresque explanation when it comes to miracles.
A miracle, by its very definition, is something that cannot be explained, that's why it's a miracle.
This is 40K, where mythos, science, magic and the supernatural happily exist next to eachother. So why do people so desperately want an explanation for miracles and divine interactions. The bible never bothered to give me one beyond 'it was God's will'.

To me, 40K is like reading the bible. A combination of historical truth and religious truths. And the fun thing about 40K is that the religious truths are just as real as the the historical ones. I guess some of the more synical or sceptical gamers among us rather have some psuedo-scientific explanation for everything that happens in 40K.

But to me, miracles, acts of faith, holy relics who excerly work are just fine as GW represents them. Trying to explain them kinda takes away their coolnes so to speak.

And on topic. Nothing is more holy than the Immortal Emperor himself in the Imperium. His existence is valued higher than that of entire Segmentums. Taking the risk of letting some terrorist blow up the throne during an audience is too great. (no matter how small it really is)
One must remember that not even Holy Terra is free of taint. Inquisitor Eisenhorn mentions the purge of a Nurgle cult on Holy Terra. Would you dare to take of the risk of letting a heretic tread holy soil and possibly even threaten the existence of the Emperor?

Lavadude360
28-10-2007, 15:42
It's not known what was said or done in there, but they promptly killed Vandire (who had possibly the best 40K exit line ever).



Which was?

Back OT;

'No-one' is allowed to see him as general morale would plummet. Seeing your god is a withered husk of a man is a real downer. Trust me.

Templar Ben
28-10-2007, 15:51
Believing is one thing, but seeing is an entirely different thing. I mean, look at what actually looking upon the Emperor did for the proto Sisters of Battle that did it? And they were insanely super religious anyway.

I think that is the issue.

John 20:29 and Hebrews 11 discusses that in detail. (This is not an invitation to make this P&R, just a real world example of Faith being based on not seeing.)

To show is to remove the possibility of Faith. An example in a movie is in Constantine. John said he had faith and Gabriel reminded him that it wasn't faith because he knew it was true.



Besides I think that if the big E could talk to people in the throne room he would ask to be allowed to die so he could be reborn in a new body.

nagash66
28-10-2007, 16:41
That still makes it sound unlikely that ALL Sisters of Battles have a decent enough presence in the Warp to effect reality in the way that the Faith Point powers do.

Maybe the Big E just has a thing for chicks with bolters?:D

MadDogMike
28-10-2007, 17:11
On the subject of people seeing the Emperor, aren't astropaths all brought before him as part of their creation? Which incidently might cut down on the desired "tourist" interest considering most of the folks that see the Emperor go blind from the experience... (It's not just seeing him that causes that of course, but you can imagine the rumors and superstition that fact would cause)

Daemonslave
28-10-2007, 19:24
It's not known what was said or done in there, but they promptly killed Vandire (who had possibly the best 40K exit line ever).


Which was?


I don't have time to die. I'm too busy!

Argastes
28-10-2007, 19:32
On the subject of people seeing the Emperor, aren't astropaths all brought before him as part of their creation? Which incidently might cut down on the desired "tourist" interest considering most of the folks that see the Emperor go blind from the experience... (It's not just seeing him that causes that of course, but you can imagine the rumors and superstition that fact would cause)

Nope, they're not brought before him. They undergo the "Soul Binding", which mingles a tiny fraction of the Emperor's power with their own (and also blinds them), but they never are in the same room as him. We know this because the ONLY people who get to enter the throneroom are the Custodes. Presumably the Soul Binding ritual is held in a chamber or chambers somewhere in the Palace, with connection to the Golden Throne's machinery; but definitely not in the throneroom itself.

Light of the Emperor
28-10-2007, 19:33
Here's how I've always seen it:

The Emperor serves as a beacon for humanity. From the conquest of earth to the horus heresy, the Emperor has saved mankind from the brink of extinction. To lose him would have meant the death of humanity. Even the Emperor knew his work was not yet done as he instructed Dorn and others to build the Golden Throne and inter him within.

The Emperor keeps the webway behind it shut and also directs the beacon of the astronomicon. It is humanities hope that the Emperor's wounds will heal over time and he can once again lead man amongst the stars.

The High Lords of Terra are corrupted with power and seek to keep the Emperor in his current form. This would tie in with Cypher moving ever closer to earth to free the DA of their guilt and free the Emperor so he can become a true "god".

Argastes
28-10-2007, 19:38
'No-one' is allowed to see him as general morale would plummet. Seeing your god is a withered husk of a man is a real downer. Trust me.

:eek: It's happened to you?!

As someone else pointed out, there are a couple fluff descriptions of Imperial icons which depict the Emperor realistically. I think the bulk of the Imperial populace (at least on civilized worlds which enjoy a reasonable amount of contact with the galaxy at large) realize that the Emperor's physical body is wired into the Golden Throne to keep it alive, and that the Throne isn't literally a chair with a healthy, normal guy sitting on it. But who knows.

DantesInferno
28-10-2007, 22:30
What I find odd in these discussions about religion, is that people always give this psykeresque explanation when it comes to miracles.
A miracle, by its very definition, is something that cannot be explained, that's why it's a miracle.
This is 40K, where mythos, science, magic and the supernatural happily exist next to eachother. So why do people so desperately want an explanation for miracles and divine interactions. The bible never bothered to give me one beyond 'it was God's will'.

Warp Gods aren't inexplicable things in 40k. We know what they are: Huge conglomerations of like warp-energy and emotion flowing together in the Warp. It's not about providing an explanation for something that was meant to remain inexplicable: the setting does give us a context to explain things like Acts of Faith in.

Whether you go the "direct divine intervention" or the "unconscious latent psychic power" route, you're providing explanations in both cases.


To me, 40K is like reading the bible. A combination of historical truth and religious truths. And the fun thing about 40K is that the religious truths are just as real as the the historical ones. I guess some of the more synical or sceptical gamers among us rather have some psuedo-scientific explanation for everything that happens in 40K.

But to me, miracles, acts of faith, holy relics who excerly work are just fine as GW represents them. Trying to explain them kinda takes away their coolnes so to speak.

Sure, religious truths are just as real as scientific ones: people can summon Daemons of their God, after all. But daemons aren't unknowable divine entities: they're just warp-creatures, created by the same flows of warp-emotion that create the gods in the Warp.


And on topic. Nothing is more holy than the Immortal Emperor himself in the Imperium. His existence is valued higher than that of entire Segmentums. Taking the risk of letting some terrorist blow up the throne during an audience is too great. (no matter how small it really is)
One must remember that not even Holy Terra is free of taint. Inquisitor Eisenhorn mentions the purge of a Nurgle cult on Holy Terra. Would you dare to take of the risk of letting a heretic tread holy soil and possibly even threaten the existence of the Emperor?

Indeed. The Imperium's even had some pretty crazy High Lords over the years.

And who would want to let the Grand Master of Assassins in to see the Emperor?

feelnopain666
28-10-2007, 22:49
After 10000 years, I bet that He doesn't smell very well!!! I bet the smell is equal to a Great Unclean One. DEATH TO THE SMELLY EMPEROR!!!!

Tehkonrad
29-10-2007, 05:29
yeah,
to me letting the fabricator general would be a bad idea

LexxBomb
29-10-2007, 07:34
Besides I think that if the big E could talk to people in the throne room he would ask to be allowed to die so he could be reborn in a new body.

well the Emperor could actually speak to his High Lords originaly for a while and gave instructions n the creation of the Golden Throne and how to run the Imperium. the problem with him speaking now is that his mind is fragmented (and this was about 300 years before the current setting). the Emperor can speak but only to pyskers. oh and All inqusitors have the right to an audiance with the Emperor. they just dont use it very often because they generaly feel anything they could bring to his devine attention would be beneath him.


but hey look at how much the way the Imperium is structured and changed over the last 300 or so years of game history.

ICEMANQ
29-10-2007, 08:26
Letting people see him cheapens him, so to speak. But I imagine most people would be cowed by him since he was the most powerful human being ever not to mention a monster of a psyker.

LexxBomb
29-10-2007, 08:30
no one ever said he was human

sorry reclarify
its never been said that he was acyually a Human. after all Space Marines are not Human. and how do yo udefine Human. the Ratlings Ogryns and Squats are humans who evolved to suit their worlds. and if you take the Emperors birth to be acurate then he is probaly a Cromagnum Man - not human.

Schanburg
29-10-2007, 08:43
But what would people _do_ in there? Id suspect just in case the answer is "roll a vortex grenade" visitors are kept to a minimum...

Although in Draco there are various folks hanging around. Yeah, that's a good point. There's too much of a risk that someone who's allowed to approach the Emperor would decide to finish him off, so it's better safe than sorry I'd guess. In theory anyway, I won't lie by stating I know quite as much about the 40k universe as you lot.

Biomass Denial
29-10-2007, 09:00
Hmm we assume cypher wants to get to the throne dont we, so cypher VS custodes in one on one pistol fights. All for the right to shoot the emporer in the face if you want to. Actuley that would be a good story cpher infiltrating/fighting his way to the throne. But you would have to have him fail unless GW suddenly change how they work. Though he could get the lion sword fixed by the emporer shortly before going to stab him and failing so the story goes forward a bit.

The Warmaster
29-10-2007, 11:08
Hmm we assume cypher wants to get to the throne dont we, so cypher VS custodes in one on one pistol fights. All for the right to shoot the emporer in the face if you want to. Actuley that would be a good story cpher infiltrating/fighting his way to the throne. But you would have to have him fail unless GW suddenly change how they work. Though he could get the lion sword fixed by the emporer shortly before going to stab him and failing so the story goes forward a bit.

I'd like to see something like this. I can't imagine they'd ever have the Emperor get killed by him, but, considering the fact that the new Cypher model (which has apparently been seen by a few people over the past year, but has not hit the internet) is said to have a fancy sword, I could imagine the sword being reforged, and Cypher pissing off afterwards.

- N.

Scragglefoot
29-10-2007, 11:26
i remenber hearing rumors That the Sword Cypher carries is the key to the golden throne

thinking about cypher thou he is saved from death by a unknown benefactor could the emperor be saving him so that he can Turn the throne off?

so the emperor can start healing or be born again?

The Warmaster
29-10-2007, 11:31
i remenber hearing rumors That the Sword Cypher carries is the key to the golden throne

Please elaborate on this, to make sure I understood you correctly.

If you meant that it's a key to the throne room, then I don't think there'd be any need for that, as the Custodes (and those they invite in) are able to enter the throne room anyway.

Oh, one more thing that people haven't mentioned - apparently there's a bunch of tech-priests and the like (Mechanicus guys, essentially) tasked with maintaining the throne. Doesn't that mean that they'd have to enter the throne room at times, when they're not maintaining any of the other sections? (Apparently the entire machine that is the Golden Throne takes up an entire wing of the Palace... might've been retconned, though.)

- N.

Scragglefoot
29-10-2007, 11:56
its the key to the throne the off switch if you like, thou this does need the throne to be built before the hersey and the key given as a gift to lion el johnson so there is alot of assuming.
cypher and the fallen are trying to get forgiveness from the emperor for "falling" from grace maybe the way they think to do this is to end the emperors suffering in the throne.

The Warmaster
29-10-2007, 12:13
its the key to the throne the off switch if you like, thou this does need the throne to be built before the hersey and the key given as a gift to lion el johnson so there is alot of assuming.
cypher and the fallen are trying to get forgiveness from the emperor for "falling" from grace maybe the way they think to do this is to end the emperors suffering in the throne.

From what I have gathered, the Lion Sword was forged long before the Imperial Webway project began (and so before the Throne was constructed). So that'd require nothing short of a retcon to work.

Plus, the Emperor didn't forsee his own near-death at the hands of Horus (it was mentioned that the future was unreadable to him at some point, possibly in the Realm of Chaos books?), which is why I think the Golden Throne "just being there", life support capabilities and all, to be a bit ridiculous. I'd like to think he just had the thing modified to deal with both the Astronomican, life support and Webway all at once, but that, too, would require retconning.

- N.

yankeeboy
29-10-2007, 12:41
no one ever said he was human

sorry reclarify
its never been said that he was acyually a Human. after all Space Marines are not Human. and how do yo udefine Human. the Ratlings Ogryns and Squats are humans who evolved to suit their worlds. and if you take the Emperors birth to be acurate then he is probaly a Cromagnum Man - not human.

Ok, first of all, the Emperor is human. He was born on Earth among humans, from humans. He was infused with all of the power from human shamans.

Second, Space Marines are human. They are all recruited from human beings. In fact, they are scrutinized more than anyone else, to make sure they are the purest, strongest, and most capable humans before entering into the training to become a Space Marine. Just because they have additional organs implanted doesn't mean that they aren't from human stock, or still retain basic humaness.

Third, according to fluff, the Emperor was born approximately 8000 bc in Anatolia (Turkey). That's still a long way off from being any form of pre-human or sub-human. Besides, to be a "cromagnum", even if born one (which he wasn't), he could have only been born in western or southern europe, which excludes Turkey.

The_Patriot
29-10-2007, 12:47
Ok, first of all, the Emperor is human. He was born on Earth among humans, from humans. He was infused with all of the power from human shamans.

Second, Space Marines are human. They are all recruited from human beings. In fact, they are scrutinized more than anyone else, to make sure they are the purest, strongest, and most capable humans before entering into the training to become a Space Marine. Just because they have additional organs implanted doesn't mean that they aren't from human stock, or still retain basic humaness.

Third, according to fluff, the Emperor was born approximately 8000 bc in Anatolia (Turkey). That's still a long way off from being any form of pre-human or sub-human. Besides, to be a "cromagnum", even if born one (which he wasn't), he could have only been born in western or southern europe, which excludes Turkey.

That's one theory with the other one being he was born to normal parents around 8000 BC and worked behind the scenes until he became Emperor. During this time he married several times and fathered many children; who are the Sensei. When he was interred upon the Golden Throne he was partially reborn in the Warp and awaits for his body to die before being reborn as the Starchild.

LexxBomb
29-10-2007, 13:23
i think we have evolved to a point in which it would be impossible to mate with someone with genetics of a 8000BC person and produce a child. as such we are a different species. and more to the point if humanity kept evolving over the next 38k years then he must be very different geneticly to any human of the imperium. also space marines where once human. becoming super human means that their genetic structure has mutated and changed therfore meaning they are no longer HUMAN. ever wondered why they dont make female space marines. easy try mating a male and female space marine and hey presto new species.

Lord Zarkov
29-10-2007, 20:47
But Marines still have Human DNA; if you were to clone them say then you would just get a regular human. Same would apply if *gasp* female marines *gasp* were possible and could *gasp* mate *gasp*; you would just get a normal human child.

Ktotwf
29-10-2007, 20:58
i think we have evolved to a point in which it would be impossible to mate with someone with genetics of a 8000BC person and produce a child.

I VERY much doubt that. Homo Sapiens has been around for quite some time, and considering the fact that most think we could have mated with Neanderthals, I doubt we have become a "new species" so to speak.

The_Patriot
29-10-2007, 21:26
i think we have evolved to a point in which it would be impossible to mate with someone with genetics of a 8000BC person and produce a child. as such we are a different species. and more to the point if humanity kept evolving over the next 38k years then he must be very different geneticly to any human of the imperium. also space marines where once human. becoming super human means that their genetic structure has mutated and changed therfore meaning they are no longer HUMAN. ever wondered why they dont make female space marines. easy try mating a male and female space marine and hey presto new species.

The people that are from 8,000 BC are completely human and have the same genetic structure as they do in the 41st millennium. There is no genetic deviation from them so the Emperor could mate as he saw fit and would still have children. Also macro evolution has never been proven and will, more often then not, never be proven. Ergo, there is no such thing as species jumping. Micro-evolution, aka adaptation, can be proven and has been proven.

If there were female marines and they mated with male marines you would end up with a normal human child that does not have the 19 extra organs.

yankeeboy
29-10-2007, 21:40
That's one theory with the other one being he was born to normal parents around 8000 BC and worked behind the scenes until he became Emperor. During this time he married several times and fathered many children; who are the Sensei. When he was interred upon the Golden Throne he was partially reborn in the Warp and awaits for his body to die before being reborn as the Starchild.

That's not a theory. It's established fluff straight from the Realms of Chaos book.

The_Patriot
29-10-2007, 21:50
That's not a theory. It's established fluff straight from the Realms of Chaos book.

Yes I know it's established fluff, but it's still a theory just like the Starchild is just a theory that's established fluff.

Indrid Khold
29-10-2007, 21:59
That's not a theory. It's established fluff straight from the Realms of Chaos book.

I find this statement to be charmingly naive. ;)

yankeeboy
29-10-2007, 23:02
You know what? I don't care for your condescending tone at all.

I only made the distinction between a personal "theory", which could be anybody's idea about 40k, regardless of printed fluff, and that information which is derived from actual printed fluff.

There's nothing naive about it. Jesus, now I know why I rarely post here anymore. *********** ********.

Ktotwf
29-10-2007, 23:03
A lot of people who prefer to make up their own crazy interpretations of the 40k universe dismiss the Realm of Chaos fluff, even though it has been recently subtly referenced in BL material, and has NEVER been contradicted in the least bit.

yankeeboy
29-10-2007, 23:06
I recently pulled my copies out and re-read them lately. I was surprised how much of the Horus Heresy and Emperor information is exactly the same as current versions of it (Horus Heresy novels and the artbooks). Same goes for the actual daemonic information, as well. It holds up remarkably well.

The_Patriot
29-10-2007, 23:15
There are two theories presented in the fluff. It appears that we've been mixing the two. *laughs* The original version from RT was the Emperor was born to normal parents in Anatolia. He hid behind the scenes and guided humanity.

The newest version is the Starchild theory. He was created by shamans in Anatolia, guided humanity, and fathered many children. If he dies he becomes the Starchild.

BrotherAdso
29-10-2007, 23:55
Erm....you know, as Yankeeboy, who I respect as another coherent, thoughtful poster (Of whom there are too few on this interweb of idiocy!) seems to be pointing out, in no way are those "two theories" or 'modern' fluff in any way mutually contradictory.

The Emperor was concieved in the womb of a mortal woman in Anatolia because all those spirits had to coalesce in SOME mortal shell or another, so her unborn child seemed as good as any. Or maybe the spirits creatd or fertilized that child in her womb. Either way, "created" is a vague enough term to mean such a thing (and play all kinds of fun games when you realize that, in vague-mists-of-history terms, a spiritually concieved child thousands of years ago in the Near East has an awfully familiar ring to it...where are those wise men when you need them?).

This is perfectly in line with the current Heresy novels and fluff -- the Emperor didn't get a chance to tell anyone his long term plans, and he had to get on the throne at least temporarily, or Earth would have been a festering demon pit. Then, it seems, he couldn't get off or get the message across that he wanted to be off the throne. Now much of his spirit guides the Astromican, plays pranks in the material universe like the protection of Sisters and Sebastian Thor, and holds the worst of Chaos at bay.

Rift mended?

-Adso

LexxBomb
30-10-2007, 08:16
But Marines still have Human DNA; if you were to clone them say then you would just get a regular human. Same would apply if *gasp* female marines *gasp* were possible and could *gasp* mate *gasp*; you would just get a normal human child.


gasp and so does an Orangutan (98% match)
and a Cockroach (80%).

the geneseed used in making SpaceMarines actually changes the DNA and that is why it is a dangerous process. so if you could create a female SM with the new DNA a child would have the new DNA not the original.

by your logic beastmen and mutants are human, where else we know the Imperium doesnt class them as human beings geneticly. same goes with Squats and Ratligs and Ogryns. if it has taken less then 38k years for those species of man to evolve doesnt that mean that speical drifft can occur and as a result the human base DNA would be different to today.

*im only putting forward my thoughts on the issue and not trying to anger anybody- not meaning to flame anybody.

thearchiver
30-10-2007, 11:31
Just to clear up a few things

The Tears of the Emperor grenade weapon talked about here from the 2nd Ed SoB Codex, are not really tears from the Emperor, the war gear rules for them clearly state these tears are from statues of the Emperor and other icons that have been weeping blood like tears.

The Custodes never had rules is in fact wrong, they did get a stat line in RT, which put them in between a SM champion and SM minor hero, which puts the base custodes around the SM chaplain stat line now.

The “no one can see him” rule I think really applies to the masses, just like when I’m working a door to a venue that’s closed to the public ,no ones aloud in … you know expect you know this person and that person.

And the best by to make sure someone doesn’t touch something there not meant to, is not let anyone get anywhere near it.

Iracundus
30-10-2007, 12:47
The Tears of the Emperor wargear is still liquid that is infused with the Emperor's power, coming as they are from supernatural occurences of weeping religious icons. The description has always sounded more like a justification for how Sisters of Battle can carry so many vials around. It would have strained suspension of disbelief to imagine each and every single vial used by the Sisters was collected directly from the Emperor's eyes. Some of those vials may but not necessarily all.

"Oh great God-Emperor of Mankind, we beseech you to weep more for us for we are woefully low on our supplies of anti-Daemon grenades!"

DantesInferno
30-10-2007, 13:21
The Tears of the Emperor wargear is still liquid that is infused with the Emperor's power, coming as they are from supernatural occurences of weeping religious icons. The description has always sounded more like a justification for how Sisters of Battle can carry so many vials around. It would have strained suspension of disbelief to imagine each and every single vial used by the Sisters was collected directly from the Emperor's eyes. Some of those vials may but not necessarily all.

I, of course, find it exceedingly difficult to believe that any of the vials literally contained the Emperor's tears: actual, real, water coming from the Emperor's tear ducts.

If any did, I don't think it would be passed out to Ecclesiarchy commanders on the battlefield.


"Oh great God-Emperor of Mankind, we beseech you to weep more for us for we are woefully low on our supplies of anti-Daemon grenades!"

...And Saint Attila raised the hand grenade up on high, saying, "O Lord, bless this Thy hand grenade that with it Thou mayest blow Thine enemies to tiny bits, in Thy mercy".......

yankeeboy
30-10-2007, 14:55
As opposed to all of the other "believable" aspects of 40k fluff? :)

Ktotwf
30-10-2007, 19:39
One takes much of the fun out of Warhammer 40k by disbelieving in the more ridiculous and fantastical elements.

DantesInferno
30-10-2007, 21:47
As opposed to all of the other "believable" aspects of 40k fluff? :)

I think there's some justification to trying to keep your interpretation of the 40k background as consistent as possible. Of course the setup requires some initial suspension of disbelief. But once you're inside, I think you should be looking for as much internal coherency as possible. If you've got two possible interpretations X and Y, go with the one which is most plausible within the context of 40k.

So I don't think literal tears of the Emperor are a) being produced and b) getting handed out to Ecclesiarchy battlefield commanders to be used as grenades.


One takes much of the fun out of Warhammer 40k by disbelieving in the more ridiculous and fantastical elements.

As above. If you've got one interpretation which is "ridiculous" and the other which is more plausible within the context of 40k, I say go for the more consistent one.

And I think I get more fun out of it that way. I'd get bored very quickly if I took all of the "ridiculous" elements of 40k completely literally.

Indrid Khold
31-10-2007, 19:34
You know what? I don't care for your condescending tone at all.

I only made the distinction between a personal "theory", which could be anybody's idea about 40k, regardless of printed fluff, and that information which is derived from actual printed fluff.

There's nothing naive about it. Jesus, now I know why I rarely post here anymore. *********** ********.


Whoa, whoa, whoa! Peace, brother, did you not see the winky face?

All I meant by my "condescending" comment was that Realms of Chaos is ignored by a large percentage of the 40K playing population. I simply found it mildly humorous that you apparently expected the argument to immediately end just because an old supplement book was invoked.

boogaloo
31-10-2007, 19:36
the emperor's dead. Horus killed him. letting anyone "see him" would prove that chaos kicked our a$$ in the past, and destroy the entire power system of the imperium!

LexxBomb
01-11-2007, 01:21
personaly I would like them to re-release Realms of chaos was a backgound text for the new generation of players. so they could read it legaly

Ktotwf
01-11-2007, 01:23
the emperor's dead. Horus killed him. letting anyone "see him" would prove that chaos kicked our a$$ in the past, and destroy the entire power system of the imperium!

By "Chaos kicked our ass" do you mean "Lost the war and were banished to a tiny irrelevant corner of the galaxy, whilst the Emperor continues to rule over the largest and most powerful stellar realm in history"?

Indrid Khold
01-11-2007, 01:28
whilst the Emperor continues to rule over the largest and most powerful stellar realm in history"?


Um .... that's really not true .... *cough* OldOnesC'tanEldarOrks *cough*

Not that it matters to the discussion at hand.

Ktotwf
01-11-2007, 01:32
Um .... that's really not true .... *cough* OldOnesC'tanEldarOrks *cough*


Except that the BGB says it is the largest and most powerful stellar empire ever to exist. The Eldar Empire was smaller, and the Empire of the Old Ones (if they indeed HAD an Empire) was not militaristic and proved mostly incapable of defending itself.

The Orks don't have a "stellar realm" they have millions of little ones.

Indrid Khold
01-11-2007, 01:53
the Empire of the Old Ones (if they indeed HAD an Empire) was not militaristic and proved mostly incapable of defending itself.




While I admit to being a teeny bit intellectually dishonest, you can't seriously believe that. The Old Ones were crazy powerful. They'd make the Imperium of Man their bitch any day of the week, and twice on Sunday.

Ktotwf
01-11-2007, 01:56
The Old Ones were crazy powerful.

What evidence do we really have for that? The one war we know they fought they lost. And they lost hard. To the Necrons.

The Imperium at least has given about as good as it has gotten so far in the war against the Necrons.

Comparing the Old Ones and the Imperium is mostly like Apples and Oranges anyway...the Old Ones weren't some giant militaristic space empire, they were a transcendant and intelligent race of scientist and inventors

The Old Ones were smart, and wise, and all that, but it didn't seemed to have helped them much on the battlefield, whilst the Imperium of Man today makes a living out of kicking the crap out of the Old One's creations that have stuck around to this day.

Indrid Khold
01-11-2007, 02:00
Okay, let's see:

1. The Old Ones beat the Necrontyr down hard the first time they fought. The same Necrontyr, remember, who were already an extremely advanced starfaring civilization. This alone disproves your allegation that they never won a war.

2. You know how Eldar are badass? You know how Orks are badass? The Old Ones created them as tactical species bombs.

3. You know the C'tan? You know how they can take on damn near anything and walk away? You know how there's only 4 of them left, and teh galaxy is still pretty much screwed? The Old Ones fought dozens/hundreds/thousands of them for untold millenia.


The Imperium and its armies are all well and good, but they are nothing compared to the Old Ones (who may or may not have created humanity in the first place!). I know you're a man of strong opinions, and I know you like the Imperium, and I can respect that. But please do actually read the fluff relevant to any given conversation before you enter into it like you know everything.

Ktotwf
01-11-2007, 02:04
1. The Old Ones beat the Necrontyr down hard the first time they fought. The same Necrontyr, remember, who were already an extremely advanced spacefaring civilization. This alone disproves your allegation that they never won a war.

How many advanced, space faring civilizations do you think the Imperium has destroyed like crushing a cockroach under its boot up to this point?


2. You know how Eldar are badass? You know how Orks are badass? The Old Ones created them as tactical species bombs.

Don't you think there is...oh, maybe, A REASON that the Old Ones had to create meatshield like the Eldar and Kroarks?


3. You know the C'tan? You know how they can take on damn near anything and walk away? You know how there's only 4 of them left, and teh galaxy is still pretty much screwed? The Old Ones fought dozens/hundreds/thousands of them for untold millenia.

And they died. That is, right before the C'tan retardedly ate each other.

But I don't even really see the C'Tan as the threat. The C'Tan need the Necrons, because ultimately the C'Tan either concentrate themselves into a small metal carapace, and thus become irrelvant on a large scale, or they are irrelevant because they are not concentrated.

It isn't the C'Tan that are or ever were the threat, except for maybe the unfortunate Guardsman or Space Marines who happens to be WHERE THEY ARE. It was the plans they created and the work of their minions the Necrons.


(who may or may not have created humanity in the first place!).

They didn't. The Eldar knew of "proto-humans" as "comical tree creatures" with no place in the plans of the Old Ones.

Meaning that, unlike the Eldar or Orks, humanity climbed its way to the top with its own sweat and blood.

LexxBomb
01-11-2007, 02:09
not quite . the eldar dont respect orks either and they were creations of the old ones. the closest we can really say about human development was that the C'tan influenced the human genes to create pariahs. maybe the eldar weren't told because humans were a mistake that was going to be used against them

Ktotwf
01-11-2007, 02:12
not quite . the eldar dont respect orks either and they were creations of the old ones. the closest we can really say about human development was that the C'tan influenced the human genes to create pariahs.

That doesn't make any sense. At the time the C'Tan and the Old Ones were active, the nearest relative to a human would have been something squirrel like and fuzzy.

LexxBomb
01-11-2007, 02:19
and yet you have just said before that they were comical tree creatures (ie monkeys). fact is the C'tan have altered the human genes to produce pariahs and this was before they went to beed for the long sleep. so during the war. hell mars is a tomb world. now if the Old Ones create life that has access to the warp for weapons (like humans always have according to Realms of Chaos) them it could be said that the Old Ones created the humans initially and then the C'tan altered the new species to use as a long term secret weapon before goin to sleep.
im not saying that it must ave been that way im just stating that the fluff can be used to argue this point of view

Ktotwf
01-11-2007, 02:23
It just doesn't make any sense, and I don't mean because of Fluff. I mean because of science.

If the Old Ones had come to Earth they would have been much more concerned with the gigantic lizards and such roaming about. They wouldn't have created some underground dwelling rodent, believing someday that these rodents would spawn the Imperium of Man.

Thats stupid fluff. I call a DantesInferno here. I just don't buy it.

LexxBomb
01-11-2007, 02:33
you do realise that if you going to play the science game why would the old ones be worried about reptiles. Dinosaurs were actually birds. latest digs show that T-Rex has feathers around the head and neck. also the war in heaven went on for a very long time. the war in heaven created the chaos gods (well the first three) plus the eldar gods and ork gods. if you take reamls of chaos then shortly after the creation of the chaos gods the Emperor was born. I like to think that the old ones came during the early stages of the great ice age. that way the time line can still fit

DantesInferno
01-11-2007, 04:13
It just doesn't make any sense, and I don't mean because of Fluff. I mean because of science.

If the Old Ones had come to Earth they would have been much more concerned with the gigantic lizards and such roaming about. They wouldn't have created some underground dwelling rodent, believing someday that these rodents would spawn the Imperium of Man.

It's always nice to be able to agree with Ktotwf about something. The timeline for the War in Heaven is pretty suspicious. I assume the 60 million years ago point was picked because it links in with the extinction of the dinosaurs here on Earth, but it's really far too long ago. If you decrease it by a factor of 20 or 30, it makes a bit more sense. It means the Eldar were only ruling the galaxy for a maximum of 2 or 3 million years. It's still a very long time, of course, but it's more plausible than 60 million...

Plus it means that the Pariah gene could been have planted into humans at a reasonably recognisable point (rather than having the C'tan going around to every Earth-like planet implanting the gene into all mammalian creatures on the off-chance one of them grows up to dominate the galaxy...


Thats stupid fluff. I call a DantesInferno here. I just don't buy it.

:p