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Killgore
28-10-2007, 15:12
greatings all, the star of chaos is rising again and i need help choosing which daemonic beastie will best do my bidding

I own in my collection a Blood Thirster and a Great unclean one greater daemon and cant deside which would be better in my chaos list that relies mostly on foot sloggers

The BT is a flying killing machine that destroys everything but is also abit uncontrollable

the GUO is very slow but then so is most of my army, it has a shooting template attack and will probaly only be hit in combat on rolls of 6, it has many wounds but will probaly become the biggest cannonball magnet on the table and most importantly is a very high level caster


so whats it going to be? advice please

Finnigan2004
28-10-2007, 15:49
My personal choice would be (and often is) the Bloodthirster. The Great Unclean One is really tough, but with a movement of 4 no one will ever be silly enough to fight it (Barring a bloodthirster with no one else in charge range that is. If that happens, you will probably watch the 'Thirster will carve him up and you'll be out over six hundred points ;)). If you want to use a nurgle daemon, I think that the flying prince is better value for the points.

Khorghan
28-10-2007, 15:50
posting your list you want to use it in would be a help

Killgore
28-10-2007, 16:07
posting your list you want to use it in would be a help

havnt really got a set list, something along the lines of 3 units of warriors, 2 units of mauarders, numerous sorcerers/ champions and a unit or two of knights

i havnt played chaos in a very long time and originaly bought the greater daemons to use for 40k

Lorcryst
28-10-2007, 16:45
None. A Daemon Price can do almost as well, especially a Nurgle marked one (that will fly, as a bonus) and won't be a Large Target.

I tried the Greater Daemons in my Chaos armies (with my GUO proxying the others, I admit), and I was usually disapointed.

sulla
28-10-2007, 21:33
Personally, I would say a large, frenzied flyer (in this case, the bloodthirster) is one of the toughest units in the game to get value out of due to the ease with which he can be baited/run around the table. It takes an immense degree of skill and caution to use him and often requires your army to be tailored almost specifically to clear the table for him. Personally, I'd leave him at home in 2000pts. If you really want a greater daemon, use the GUO. He may be slow, but at least he's a caster and fairly good general for your army and can join a unit of plaguebearers to add outnumbering and ranks to his combat potential.

SlaaneshSlave
28-10-2007, 21:38
For a foot slogging army you need something to keep the shots off of your army. GUO would be great or that. It can take multiple cannon balls & stay above half wounds.

If you had a fast army, then I'd go with a flier. But there is no point in a character fighting alone for 3 turns.

chaos-nightwing
30-10-2007, 09:02
iwould take khrone if i was u. Because ur army is all mainly foot warriors, i would say flying units are very essential in ur army. Also, charots is very good too. U need the chaos furies to attack the enemy cannon, stone thrower or ,etc. and use chariot to charge the archers. the chariots have high toughness and a 3+ armour save, even str 4 long rang is not going to harm them. Since u have a lot of dispell dice. magic wont be a problem. U can use flyer to block the escaping routs of fleeing troops, block line of sights, and charge at the war machine since the machine cannot stand and shoot. as ur anoying flying units are taking out their long rang or march block, ur foot soilder can charge the enemy units. even tough they normally move 16"! cause now they can only move 8". and even if they charge u first, u get out number, extra rank and ur other units will flank the units that just charge u, making it hard for the enemy to win combat.

Timk1111
30-10-2007, 09:23
Gday,

Having just come out of a tournament using my Lord of Khorne on a dragon, Id say the GUO is the way to go.

Even tho he can fly, its still gonna take 3 turn to get into combat for Blood thirster, becuase you cant expose him incase hes baited. My dragon worked best in about turn 3-4 when i was too close for the enemy to flee, and ended up rolling his entire line. However, flenzy screwed me as a whole.

I played against the GUO, however, and he just doesnt die. Its still gonna take quite a few cannon balls to stop him, so i wouldn't be too worried about that. As you mentioned, he's near impossible to hit and wound in combat, while dishing out plenty in return.

Here's a tactic i played against, and it worked pretty well for my opponent. Run the GUO with 2 units a 4 chaos trolls. They pretty much use his LD as they all march up the field together, and support each other in combat. Those trolls with regeneration are also very hard to kill. Throw in some blocks of Plague Bearers, and that one difficult army to shift allready.

Regards, tim

Killgore
30-10-2007, 14:02
chears for the advice all,

i beleave its time to bring Tubby back onto the scene

i'll save the blood thirster for the bigger battles or for when i have a stupid oponunt ;)

soots
01-11-2007, 06:52
Leave Fatso at home and Bring Arnie.

sulla
01-11-2007, 19:16
Leave Fatso at home and Bring Arnie.

...then watch in dismay as the idiot chases dogs into forests all game long leaving 1200pts of chaos to valiantly take on 1900pts of enemies...:evilgrin:;):cries:

Khorghan
01-11-2007, 19:29
...then watch in dismay as the idiot chases dogs into forests all game long leaving 1200pts of chaos to valiantly take on 1900pts of enemies...:evilgrin:;):cries:

^^hahah^^

well your army isnt very fast(lots of warriors and marauders) so a GUO wouldent be out of place, if the spead is a problem use a deamon prince with the MoN. Unless you use your Bloodthirtster very well or you oponent isnt very smart it can really turn out badly.

Caligula
01-11-2007, 19:48
Mhmm, as many have said the Bloodthirster can be led around quite readily by a canny opponent. That doesn't mean he's not amazingly good when he does what you want him to, but the problem is that he's not entirely under your control.

Still though, if I had to pick I'd go for the 'thirster.

Kharnath
02-11-2007, 09:29
i dont overly recommend it but...

you can always have him facing backwards and move him liek that, thus preventing being led around.....

you may get sum odd looks but...i think its legal, least theyve not stopped me doing it yet :p

SevenSins
02-11-2007, 19:57
I liked the GUO+trolls ideas tim111111111, might give that a go. I'm leaning more and more towards nurgle these days (conversions I guess)
Kharnath: Legal? yes. No further comment on you I think...

I'd say the GUO mainly because of the better looking model...

theunwantedbeing
02-11-2007, 20:47
Thirster is by far the better of the 2 greater daemons.
Simply as it can fly.
Frenzy? pish when you can see over everything and fly 20" and dont have to charge the nearest thing(love it when people assume thats how frenzy works ^_^ ) he makes for one tricky little monster to avoid.

Assuming you dont put him facing into the middle of the board on the first turn.....

The great unclean one while brilliant and very tough is simply too slow. You really need to back him up with a shadow mage who can help him move around the board. As thats only a single high difficulty spell your unlikely to cast that and not have it scrolled.
Even though you only need just a single casting per game.

Deploying your thirster facing the opposite way is perfectly legal.

Timk1111
02-11-2007, 22:45
Thirster is by far the better of the 2 greater daemons.
Simply as it can fly.
Frenzy? pish when you can see over everything and fly 20" and dont have to charge the nearest thing(love it when people assume thats how frenzy works ^_^ ) he makes for one tricky little monster to avoid.

Assuming you dont put him facing into the middle of the board on the first turn.....

The great unclean one while brilliant and very tough is simply too slow. You really need to back him up with a shadow mage who can help him move around the board. As thats only a single high difficulty spell your unlikely to cast that and not have it scrolled.
Even though you only need just a single casting per game.

Deploying your thirster facing the opposite way is perfectly legal.

Ive had my Dragon Lord of KHorne perfectly behind enemy line, went to charge a cav unit in the rear, he flee, Im out in the open to be picked appart.

Id save thirsters for 3000 points, where theres a ton more targets. He CAN work, and i have rolled lines with just the dragon, but it wont work everytime.

GUO may be slower, but he's a level 4 mage from a pretty wicked lore. He's not 'simply too slow' at all. He will get to combat by turn 3-4, and the bloodthirster will be about the same, because its stupid to charge someone that 15-19 inches away - so you have to get close so they dont flee.

Regards, Tim

scarvet
03-11-2007, 04:28
Again, it really depend on the meta-game.

GDs are good against any fair opponent(nice ones and/or ones that only depend on their skill to win). In high-competitive level however, frenzy really screw you up. If your Thirster is facing away, they might as well sacrifice a skirmish or fast cavalry to send you 20" away.

GUO however, as said, is a Lv4 wizard will good powers, can take a few cannon ball, and an nightmare to fight in CC; M4 isn't an issue at all.

And since the GD is going to be your general anyway, you better off chose one that can survive.

sulla
03-11-2007, 06:02
i dont overly recommend it but...

you can always have him facing backwards and move him liek that, thus preventing being led around.....

you may get sum odd looks but...i think its legal, least theyve not stopped me doing it yet :p

Still doesn't stop scouts charging out of woods, you wipe them out and are forced to overrun into the woods...:(

Finnigan2004
03-11-2007, 17:11
I've used a bloodthirster quite a few times, and if you properly move him his 20" charge means that he should pretty much be able to pick his charge target by turn 2 (just remember to bring your rule book, so that you can show your opponent that he can charge any target in range with frenzy). The whole baiting argument is fine academically, but having faced a lot of different opponents at tournaments I can not remember being forced to make a charge that I did not want to. I do, however, usually use him in combination with an exalted daemon, flesh hounds, and bloodcrushers becuase he needs to be supported. I have also faced nurgle armies, and the results with the great unclean one are mixed most of the time. He is a good caster, but no better than a daemon prince (who can fly and pick his fights). That said, I do prefer the lord of change or daemon prince of chaos undivided most of the time when fielding big beasties.

Timk1111
04-11-2007, 00:50
Still doesn't stop scouts charging out of woods, you wipe them out and are forced to overrun into the woods...:(

You can olny overrun if YOU are the charger.

MalusCalibur
05-11-2007, 00:35
You can olny overrun if YOU are the charger.

Not true. You can overrun so long as it is the first round of combat, and you kill all enemy models in BTB. You don't have to be the charger.

To the original question, I'd say the GUO all the way. Ok, the Bloodthirster is faster and killy-er, but the GUO is NEVER going to go down unless you get very unlucky with an instability test. 10 Wounds is just too many to take off in a single game. Even Cannons are going to struggle: they're looking at a minimum of two shots and more likely three or even four. Combined with the fact he's a lvl4 wizard and essentially untouchable in combat (and not exactly a slouch at it, either), and I think you have your answer.


MalusCalibur

Varath- Lord Impaler
05-11-2007, 01:32
You dont have to overrun.

Belerophon709
05-11-2007, 08:37
U can use flyer to block the escaping routs of fleeing troops, block line of sights, and charge at the war machine since the machine cannot stand and shoot. as ur anoying flying units are taking out their long rang or march block, ur foot soilder can charge the enemy units. even tough they normally move 16"! cause now they can only move 8".

Eh? Charge block? What the....? That's funny. Read rules again, perhaps? :eyebrows:


Not true. You can overrun so long as it is the first round of combat, and you kill all enemy models in BTB. You don't have to be the charger.

MalusCalibur

Brb pg.43:

"If a unit charges into combat and, by the end of that turn's combat phase all its enemies have been wiped out, the unit may make a pursuit move, even with nobody left alive to pursue. This is an overrun move and represents the unit surging forwards, hungry to find more enemies to fight."

It says "If a unit charges..." not "If a unit charges or is charged...", so indeed, it is only the unit that charges during that round that may make an overrun move. The charged unit may not.

Timk1111
05-11-2007, 09:24
You dont have to overrun.

You do if you're frenzied.

Always charge, always overrun, always pursue.

It may only happen every so often, but the look on your face when an empire Wizard uses the Speculum on the Thirster, should be priceless (mine was...hate that thing...)

Also remeber, that the GUO;s 'cloud of flies' affects the entire combat - so he's even better when supported. In my troll example, no-one should hit them on better than 4's. Mino's even have a chance of only being hit on 5's against most models. With chaos warriors, it gets even better (and they are the same speed, perfect support)

Concluding, there's no wrong answer here - they're both tough as hell. Maybe think about you're stategies tho. Thirster is suited to a fast moving army, so knights, flesh hounds, what ever gets as many multiple charges in at once. The GUO will keep moving up the field everyturn, and you can use his slow moving 'generals LD' to support foot troops instead.

Peace out ya'll!

Tim

Scelerat
05-11-2007, 12:25
I say drop the fat lady and the "nooo, I swear I'm not a Balrog" dogface and get your hands on a nice and fast-killy-magic Keeper of Secrets.

Now, seriously, I have never used any of those GD, so I cannot help you decide between them, but being a Daemon/Mortal Chaos general, I must say: avoid GDs unless you're playing 3000 or more points. They're a point sink and a great magnet for cannons and the likes. Daemon Princes are almost as good as them, plus they fly and do not count as "big targets".