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Nargrakhan
08-09-2005, 07:39
I was searching around the Net for information about obscure “official” Space Marine Chapters, and I came across something called the Adeptus Custodes. From what I could gather, these are made from the Emperor’s own genetic material, and represent the last line of defense for the Golden Throne on Terra.

Given how each Chapter is different from others because of their Progenitor, I wonder what this particular one is like... Mini-Primarchs?

Brimstone
08-09-2005, 07:42
Well they used to take a far more active role before the Emperor ascended to the Golden Throne, they took part in the suppression of the Thousand Sons and have been described as superior to marines but not Primarchs.

All of that comes from the Horus Heresy books though which some revile for their revisionist history.

Shas'o'Fior
08-09-2005, 07:56
Well, they COULD possibly be more than a thousand, as their not a chapter in that sense...or are they?

Brimstone
08-09-2005, 08:02
No they are not a chapter, they are the Emperors Pretorian guard and while they have access to the full range of Astartes equipment they are organised in a very different way.

These days their main role is to act a guardians of the golden throne but occasionally probably undertake offworld missions for the support of the throne or vital to the Imperium. Their role as military overseers to the Astartes is gone.

They have allegiance to the high lords at all and answer to no one but the Emperor

FieronThor
08-09-2005, 08:24
From what I remember of them, they're not exactly space marines, due to them not having all the organs that a normal space marine does, but instead probably the most necessary ones. Also what makes them so much more special and capable is the fact that they know the entire layout of the Imperial Palace That came in handy when they tried reaching Vandire's troops (Sisters of the Emperor?) without going though the main hallways and corridors.

Brimstone
08-09-2005, 08:30
It's been said that they may have been protoypes for the Marines as they appeared during the age of strife before the creation of the Astartes.

FieronThor
08-09-2005, 08:33
That bit about them going out only when they absolutely have to, it just don't seem all that plausible. Considering tht they are meant to be shut off completely from the rest of he Imperium, and only take orders from the Emperor, then how do they know when to leave. Also just a quick question, where can one find this fluff on the Custodes attacking the 1k sons?

Brimstone
08-09-2005, 08:40
They will act on their own or possibly with direction from the Emperor, for support of the golden throne I'd imagine they would do what is required.

The fluff on sacking of Prospero is from the Horus Heresy artbooks.

Iracundus
08-09-2005, 08:44
I don't like the recent portrayal of them in the revisionist Horus Heresy books because it caters to the ridiculous spiral of Marine power.

Marines - elite among humanity
Grey Knights - Wait, these guys are the creme de la creme, and are even more elite
Custodes - Even better than Grey Knights! The elite of the elite of the elite! :rolleyes:

Randallw
08-09-2005, 09:17
Assuming the piece you found wasn't the conversion page, here it is

http://us.games-workshop.com/games/40k/spacemarines/painting/taylor_heresy/default.htm

Iuris
08-09-2005, 09:38
Er, what's new about the adeptus custodes in the HH artbook? Don't have it.

Far as I know, practically nothing was known about them. The models wore spiky helms and halberds, and we know they are sworn to silence abbout the throne, but apart form that, we had about as much fluff about them as we do about marine fertility. Or am I missing something?

archangels uk
08-09-2005, 10:01
That bit about them going out only when they absolutely have to, it just don't seem all that plausible. Considering tht they are meant to be shut off completely from the rest of he Imperium, and only take orders from the Emperor, then how do they know when to leave. Also just a quick question, where can one find this fluff on the Custodes attacking the 1k sons?

Emperors tarot dicating what they need to do?

Wiseman
08-09-2005, 12:05
now these guys are ment to be the top dogs, but how would they be so good at combat if they have no battlefield experience....

FieronThor
08-09-2005, 12:32
I think training will make them superb in their own right. It is like how the Grey Knights are so godd. Their equipment can be siad to be similar to normal astartes, however their training programs is probably far superior. Custodes as well I think have help in the sense of probably quicker reaction times, etc, because of using the Emperor's geneseed.
About the Emperor's Tarot, i hought it only showed general things and not specific events. Please correct me if I am wrong.

Kage2020
08-09-2005, 13:37
It's been said that they may have been protoypes for the Marines as they appeared during the age of strife before the creation of the Astartes.
This is my preferred interpretation, though one must remember that the 'prototype Marines' were indeed the Primarchs! :D Thus, for me, there are a number of distinct genetic 'lines' that go into making up the Primarchs that were later returned to in the creation of the geneseed of the legiones astartes. The adeptus custodes were, however, created out of the 'proto-lines' of the Primarchs, the common features that make up the various qualities of the Primarchs. What you might consider these to be are up for grabs, but for me creates a number of distinct lineages of the adeptus custodes.

But that's just me.

As to the 'fluff' on the purpose of the adeptus custodes during the Horus Heresy? Doesn't that strike you as a bit of Revisionism in operation? If they truly were the 'uber-Marines' that people and 'fluff' keep on seeming to want to make them wouldn't they have been able to do a bit more than offer themselves as guides? (There are ways around this, but still...)

Kage

!mpact
08-09-2005, 13:37
Assuming the piece you found wasn't the conversion page, here it is

http://us.games-workshop.com/games/40k/spacemarines/painting/taylor_heresy/default.htm


Looking at those images, is it just me or are those models/conversions EXCELLENT for Grey Knights? Just paint them in Grey Knights colourscheme and off you go...maybe some headswaps for the ones with the elven heads, but thats about it.

Brusilov
08-09-2005, 13:43
I would tend to agree with Kage on that one. The Custodes are probably the first genetic experiments of the Emperor in creating super-warriors, in the early days of the Great Crusade, when He was still reconquering Earth

Iuris
08-09-2005, 13:47
Is nobody going to enlighten me about new fluff in the HH series? Oh, well.

Regarding the "do they fight elsewhere" question, one possibility would be a regime, similar to StarWars imperial guard, as portrayed by Timothy Zahn: the elite guard are regularily rotated so a part is on guard duty while a part is rotated to battlefields to keep their skills well honed.

Kage2020
08-09-2005, 13:50
Of course, one could argue that there are enough 'battles' going on in Terra at any given time. Darned civil uprising! ;) Then again, throwing them into a hiveworld conflict would be very interesting...

Kage

vforvenator
08-09-2005, 13:57
I don't like the recent portrayal of them in the revisionist Horus Heresy books because it caters to the ridiculous spiral of Marine power.

Marines - elite among humanity
Grey Knights - Wait, these guys are the creme de la creme, and are even more elite
Custodes - Even better than Grey Knights! The elite of the elite of the elite! :rolleyes:Whats wrong with that? Their proximity to the Emperor and scarcity in number indicates that, making them comparable to Angels, to the Space Marines knights templar in space, and without such they'd seem to have pointless existence.

Kage2020
08-09-2005, 14:01
I don't see how their proximity to the Emperor or their lower numbers indicates that they should be part of the power-house spiral that Brimstone refers to. Rather, it strikes me as amongst the worst types of munchkinism. Or is that 'cheese' as referred to in wargaming circles?

The logic of 'Emperor's Guards' = uber-Marines just seems so... superficial. Reflective of little but the simple idea that the Emperor is important and, therefore, needs powerful guards. But what function do the adeptus custodes serve that are not necessarily served by the hundreds of warships, star forts, Guard regiments, Titan regiments, blah blah that surround Holy Terra already?

Kage

Xisor
08-09-2005, 14:06
Perhaps the reason they are *still* so good even in the 41st Millenium is clearly alluded to in the Horus Heresy literature, we just haven't noticed it. It was picked up on recently that the Golden Throne was actually an experiment with Imperial Webway technology. Perhaps it was never properly resealed. :eek:

Perhaps, even to this day, the Custodes still fight off the onslaught of Daemons and terrors! In the Throne Room itself. Perhaps not though. Alternatively, it is entirely possible IMO that the Custodes *have* limited access to the Webway from Terra and the throne room and are able to 'hone' their skills from there, fighting off any 'webwayworldly' invaders, ranging from Daemons breaking in to various Eldar types and scoundrels. Massed Dark Eldar Assaults? Perhaps this is actually the plan for the Custodes, a USF-esque force combined with the likes of the Grey Knights?

Admitedly it's a far out plan, but I highly suspect there is alot more to the Adeptus Custodes-Golden Throne story than we know yet.

EDIT: This seems a good riposte to Kage's post, they do not defend the palace from the outside, but from the inside...

Xisor

Vindikhein
08-09-2005, 14:08
It's not so much what the Custodes do now that makes me believe that they are the greatest warriors that the emperor created, but what they used to do. Back when the emperor himself strode the battlefields during the great crusade, they were his bodyguards, if you can call an entire army 'bodyguards'.

Also, using the using the Imperial model of technology, if they came before marines, then they are better than marines.

Thanks.

Brimstone
08-09-2005, 14:12
I don't see how their proximity to the Emperor or their lower numbers indicates that they should be part of the power-house spiral that Brimstone refers to. Rather, it strikes me as amongst the worst types of munchkinism. Or is that 'cheese' as referred to in wargaming circles?Kage

Me ?

I think you'll find that was Iracundus.


The primary purpose of the Custodes these days is to tend the Golden Throne and guard the Emperor we have no information beyond that on their current activites.

I did speculate however that they may go offworld to obtain materials to maintain the Golden Throne.

Their last involvement in Imperial politics was to intervene in the Age of Apostary by giving the Daughters of the Emperor an audience with the Emperor.

Before that their most active period was when the Emperor was up and about and at the moment we only have the Sabretooth background to go on.

They are described as stronger than marines and able to resist the most poweful psykers which does make sense. If the Emperor is going to create a very powerful force to fight for him (The Astartes) then he would want a devoted force able to counter them if required.

Iracundus
08-09-2005, 14:15
They have the title of Emperor's Companions. Instead of having them be simple uber-uber Marines, the distinguishing fact is they are the only people in the Imperium that have contact on a daily basis with the Emperor directly. They have to be paragons of holiness and dedication, to the point of being little more than vessels of Imperial will and making the dourest Marine look like the life of the party. It is their spiritual worth and purity (think of the danger if one were corrupted and tried to sabotage the Golden Throne) that should have been emphasized, not perpetuating the Marine spiral that I mentioned.

Also they are supposedly a group that has maintained itself over the centuries from within their own numbers. That argues against them being Marines given the fluff indicating only males can take the Marine implants. No matter how superhuman they may be, they'd die out if they didn't have females.

Kage2020
08-09-2005, 14:22
Well, there remains a difference between the Companions and the rest of the adeptus custodes.

Brimstone. My apologies with regards to confusion with Iracundus. Mea culpa! ;)

As to the Golden Throne-as-Webway? Do GW continue to shoe-horn everything? Now the Imperium technically has access to the Webway. Oh dear god. :rolleyes: :cries:

But given that context then, yes, it is a good riposte! And reason that I no longer buy GW products. In short, they appear to suck! I see no real reason why a device that was originally meant as a life support system, and which some had argued as a means of perhaps supporting the Astronomican in parallel to the efforts of the Emperor, is now shoe-horned into the Webway. God, I wait with baited breath to see it intepreted as the Star Child being born as the Numen and, in so doing, over-taking Ynnaed and becoming the super-god-entity-of-all-time-that-"pwns" everything. :rolleyes:

Incidentally, which "reprobate" was responsible for the Golden Throne/Webway... erm... gem?

<sigh>

Kage

Xisor
08-09-2005, 14:38
As to the Golden Throne-as-Webway? Do GW continue to shoe-horn everything? Now the Imperium technically has access to the Webway. Oh dear god. :rolleyes: :cries:

But given that context then, yes, it is a good riposte!

Personally, I can't really object to your opinion, but I feel that GW *could* have a little nugget of 'good fluff' with this expansion of the Golden Throne. I only suggest full access to the webway. Perhaps it is more akin to the Emperor 'trying' to construct a webway of his own, eg 'digging his own tunnel'.

Whilst the quality of the HH stuff is quite poor, I must admit/confess that I have also been quite fascinated by it. Much of it appeals to me far more than much of the old fluff. I myself currently don't mind the revisionism and shoehoring so long as it makes it better. Bad attempts at this make Xisor cry :cries:

Seriosuly though, I really am quite envigorated by the development surrounding the Golden Throne, it has merit IMO(and curiosuly also Alan Merret :rolleyes: )

Xisor

Sai-Lauren
08-09-2005, 14:38
I'm wondering if they're simply supposed to be the 40k equivalent of the Emperors' Royal Guard in the Star Wars universe - they're supposed to be elite stormtroopers - they do a period of time in the Royal Guard and then rotate back through stormtrooper regiments to maintain their edge in combat.

Depends on whether you believe that Terra has guard regiments and sends them off world occasionally.


It was picked up on recently that the Golden Throne was actually an experiment with Imperial Webway technology
Where on earth did that one come from? The most complex bio-mechanical support system ever is actually a door to tunnels through another dimension? :confused:

Nah, don't think so somehow.

Brusilov
08-09-2005, 14:38
Sabertooth was responsible for this "gem", but you cannot expect much from people who deal in collectible card games, now can you? :rolleyes:
But I'll admit to their defence, that the Webway idea makes sense. This would have allow for a fast and secure means of transportation and reduced the inherent dangers of warp travel (not that it would have pleased the Navigator Houses mind you). it seems the Emperor was not really successful however, mind you.
That project is part of the attempt to protect mankind from the predations of the warp and thus make a sort of sense, even if it shouldn't have been the Golden Throne, which was only built later.

And the fusion between Ynnead and the Emperor is interesting, I might have to borrow that :p

Xisor
08-09-2005, 14:40
Where on earth did that one come from? The most complex bio-mechanical support system ever is actually a door to tunnels through another dimension? :confused:

Nah, don't think so somehow.

Shoehorning aside, it's the reverse that's true, seemingly.

Thedoor to tunnels through another dimension was also reconfigured upon His death/dying moments to be the most complex bio-mechanical support system ever. In fact, alot of it seems to suggest now that it is less of a 'life support' and more of a way of Hard Wiring the Emperor's conciousness into a 'big' Psychic Hood, which *also* now works as a life support machine too...

Comes from the Horus Heresy site, I'll find a linky.

EDIT 2: Linky (http://www.sabertoothgames.com/horus/lore_background29.asp)

EDIT: Also going by what Brussie says, it's also noted that the Psychic/Sorcerous/Daemonic message sent by Magnus to warn the Emperor of Horus actually broke the seals on that webway and let the daemons in, part of the reason the Emperor was so furious, I believe.

EDIT 3: Also this linky to the latest on the Golden Throne Fiasco (http://www.sabertoothgames.com/horus/lore_background42.asp)

TheSonOfAbbadon
08-09-2005, 15:18
I believe that the Custodes got into the Daughters of the Emperor's fortress by creating a webway tunnel from the Golden Throne room to the Fort, which the sisters then went through to talk to the Emperor. This could easily have been one of the warp powers of the golden throne, the ability to create a webway tunnel at will. Although I suspect that this would draw power away from the Throne's main use at the moment, keeping the Emperor alive. So the Golden Throne can create a webway tunnel but only for a short time and as a last resort as it could kill the Emperor.

Sai-Lauren
08-09-2005, 16:11
Right, so no one's ever considered there's a well hidden secret passage (or several) that only the AC know about to let the Daughters of the Emperor into their audience in the throne room?

My problems with the throne being a webway portal.
IIRC, the Eldar got webway tech off the Slann, there's no evidence humans have ever had anything even close to it. Ganymede's the only real possibility, but that's allegedly a warp drive that malfunctioned.
I personally wouldn't build such a thing in my own front room, anyone might come in whilst I'm watching tv, munching snacks and drinking beer.
(Cheyenne Mountain sounds about right though ;) )
If it's there, why didn't anyone try to use it, either to assault the palace, or to escape?
And the GT was built on the Emperors orders after Horus had tried to play "rip daddy's arm off and beat him to death with the damp end" (although there are some issues with how long it took to build compared with how much life he had left in him).


Shoehorning aside...
Shoehorning? Dynamiting more like.

It sounds like really, really bad, fan-fiction I'm afraid.

Inquisitor Samos
08-09-2005, 16:24
My problems with the throne being a webway portal. (...snippy-snip....)
If it's there, why didn't anyone try to use it, either to assault the palace, or to escape? That's just it: according to this new Sabertooth Games stuff, the daemons of Chaos did try to assault the palace through it...... which in turn implies that the "real" reason the Emperor had himself put back in/on the Golden Throne after his battle with Horus, apparently with special modifications made to it, was as much so he could hold the gateway closed as it was to keep his body alive and his spirit connected to it.

(For the record, I can't say I'm at all fond of this tid-bit, myself.)

FieronThor
08-09-2005, 16:24
The only thing going for the webway as the GT, is that the Emperors body could use it as a easy way to feed off energies off the Warp, and survive.

TheSonOfAbbadon
08-09-2005, 16:41
Right, so no one's ever considered there's a well hidden secret passage (or several) that only the AC know about to let the Daughters of the Emperor into their audience in the throne room?

Weren't the Fort and the Golden Throne on different planets?

Kage2020
08-09-2005, 20:23
All of this whole new HH stuff makes me wonder how GW are going to mess around with things, possibly not to the benefit of the overall universe. Is Cypher going to show up through the Portal with an army of Fallen just in time to save the day with the invading Chaos army which just happens to have broken through in the 'summer campaign'? Or something like that.

Shoe-horn? Hmmmn.

Kage

Edit: Toned things down a bit. Oooops... ;)

Sai-Lauren
09-09-2005, 08:04
Weren't the Fort and the Golden Throne on different planets?
No, the Daughters were defending the Emperor's Palace on Terra from Thor's forces.

FieronThor, the emperor doesn't feed off the energies of the warp, there's a minor little bit of fluff about 1,000 otherwise dangerous psykers being sacrificed to him daily. ;)


according to this new Sabertooth Games stuff...
Hmm, me thinks GW need to excercise a little more quality control over their satellite companies.

Dan Abnett religiously adheres to the background by comparison :p

Nazguire
11-09-2005, 07:48
Can't we all just agree on one thing? That the Sabretooth company revised the background in the most loose and inconclusive way ever. If it was a tightly controlled revision where inconsistencies were few and loose ends explained sufficiently, we wouldn't be having discussions about how much of a space marine a Custodian is.

I'm angry with Sabretooth :mad:

Khaine's Messenger
11-09-2005, 18:39
Is Cypher going to show up through the Portal with an army of Fallen just in time to save the day with the invading Chaos army which just happens to have broken through in the 'summer campaign'? Or something like that.

I would hope not, because that would be ridiculously close to actually resolving a plot that's been left a mystery since day one, and we all know how GW's authors like to wave their hands and have us dance to the tune of "mysteries are cool!".... What next, the two missing legions arrive out of the webway alongside the grey knights' primarch and the illuminati herding the Long Watch to their final purpose? I don't think so! :)

Of course, I wouldn't put it past them, because that's the sort of thing they could "fix" by saying "bwaha, it's not really the end of times, so all those guys pack up and leave!" And then, because the feces has never hit the fan before (or because GW's rarely said anything when it has), everyone whines and moans for months before incorporating all of this into their understanding of 40k, and the cycle repeats anew. :eyebrows:

That aside, I'm also of the opinion that the Custodes are the beneficiaries of some of the Emperor's earliest experiments; if not genetic engineering, then psychic engineering--perhaps even a curious by-product of intial trials of the Soul Binding ritual. They were apparently so important to the Emperor that, upon the deaths of three (when we know of no others in the early Great Crusade, although surely many must have died in the Siege and at other times), the Emperor scarred his armor with their names (something that he's never been noted to do for other "marine equivalents"). While it is possible they may not be as physically potent as Space Marines (something I will readily theorize, although the hyperbole woven into most of the background and direct statements suggest otherwise ;) ), they are indeed close to the Emperor in some way....

As to how they keep sharp over 10k years? IMHO they haven't, and they can't, ever since they've discarded their armor in favor of pointy hats, capes, jackboots, and loinclothes (but they're really good hats! ;) ), and they've not really done much besides speak on the Emperor's behalf as those who serve closest to him. They, as much as any other agency of the Imperium, have undergone the phases of mourning have passed into that firm resolution that eventually grows hollow. As their numbers tire and die (and they will, imho), they are probably replaced by Custodes who never knew the Emperor as a walking man (and perhaps are not even Custodes in the traditional sense), and while the Emperor can manipulate and mold them from the Throne with the same investment of power that He used for Draco, they are still little like the Custodes of old--almost, imho, an extension of the Emperor's will as his most legitimate mystics and retainers, but incredibly tight-lipped ones.

It's rather funny, because you'd think that the Custodians, like the Praetorian Guard of ancient Rome, would have been keen on being a major political force in the Imperial succession; they could have easily assured themselves positions in the new hierarchy, as they had been deployed early on in the Heresy to watch for signs of deviance in the loyalist chapters (as a potent sign of the Emperor's will), and while they do have a seat on the council of the High Lords and helped resolve the Age of Apostasy, they haven't really done all that much more than serve as the guards of what's essentially a crypt. Almost makes me wonder if it's the helmet that keeps the synapses firing and interested in their surroundings!

charlie_c67
12-09-2005, 11:18
snip...and they can't, ever since they've discarded their armor in favor of pointy hats, capes, jackboots, and loinclothes (but they're really good hats! ;) ... snip

Hmmm that gives a slightly disturbing image. Least they don't go for all white...

Balance of Power
17-02-2009, 16:57
Adeptus Custodes are the body guards of the Emperor. They were created by him before the gene seed process. From what I understand it took way too long for him to produce massive number of these "super marines" so his solution was the gene seed. I assume he must of grown them, probably genetically manipulated them from 1 cell up and thus the long grow process.

It is said that the Custodes are far more powerful than that of a "normal" space marine. Often said to be 3x better. In what way I have no clue. No psychic abilities were ever mentioned. However they maybe resistant to those powers.

Numbers. Unknown, we do know that there are a minimum of 300 at one time with the Emperor. There were also 1000 of these guardians when the Emperor confronted the huge WAAGHH group. The Emperor and a 1000 of his custodes destroyed the waggghh group approximately 100000 green skins were slaughtered, and only 3 of the custodian fell. (Also rumoured) that those custodians names were etched into the Emperor's golden armour to remember their sacrifice.

The Custodians have at times acted as the Emperor's agents ensure that his will was carried out in the vastness of his empire. They have assisted the space wolves when the persecuted the 1000 sons and were said to assist loyal marines hunt down and destroy chaos marines after the emperor was sealed in the golden throne.

GW has mentioned that the custodes of now would be in gold armor and black trim because of their mourning to the emperor.

SockMonkey
17-02-2009, 17:49
AC's could be functionally immortal as the Marines of old were supposed to be.The fact the AC are not loosing members due to the constant war Astartes deal with means they are sitting pretty. The Companions who wait on the big E now are very likely the ones who walked with The Emperor during the Crusade.

Revisionist history has been apart of 40K since day one, dont think this is somthing new here... the HH itself was revisionist.