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mark.
29-10-2007, 17:25
Hello people,

Altough I think it is pretty strong, it is not very often used.

The hellfire sword is a 75 point costing weapon which turns 1 wound, into D6+1 flammable wounds. becuase of it's point costs, it can only be used on lord-level characters.

In challenges, only 1 succesfull hit, already means a certain death for an enemy character, unless they have got great armor/ward saves. 2 succesfull hits means that it will get an overkill bonus to CR of +5.

I think the best character to wear this sword would be the beastlord, it is only 95pts compared to a 210pt chaos lord, and it has the same strenght, and you can make an exalted champion the general if you want to keep a HoC army.

If you put the beastlord in a beast herd counting 20, the total US of 21 will be able to outnumber most opponents, and they will receive 2 ranks.
In a challenge, 2 succesfull hits (and that is about average) will give you +5 CR for overkill, +1/+2 wounds from the beastlord himself, +1/+2 for wounds from the beastherd, +2 ranks, +1 for the standard, and possible another +1 for a war banner.

This unit is skirmishers, has got 21 men, and can break most enemy units much more expensive. But my questions is, would this be good in real? I haven't played large battles yet so I haven't seen fit to try out but it looks really interesting to me.

I would kit out the beastlord with: the hellfire sword (75), crimson armor (20) and a shield. It gets a 2+ armor save in combat and the enemy must pass a Ld test to hit.

Would it work?

FlylikeaMouse
29-10-2007, 18:04
For 10 points more i find it more worthwhile to take the Daemon Sword.
Give it to an Exalted sorcerer and you have a greater daemon at half the points.

That and I dont let any dirty beasts into my pure chaos army :p

Red_Duke
29-10-2007, 18:21
Actually, thats only a 3+ save - you dont get the +1 when youre using a magic weapon as far as im aware...

Also, im not sure if you get more than D6 extra per wound either - it says 'wounded models suffer an extra D6 wounds with no save that count as flaming' - not 'each unsaved wound does Dx wounds (like the rending sword)'

Great against WE or TK though...

Id agree with mouse on the Daemon Sword though - thats some serious hardware on a sorceror (especially a slaaneshi one on a steed of slaanesh - really evil)

W0lf
29-10-2007, 19:36
Daemonsword is better as noted.

Oh and as for your maths.. its wrong:


If you put the beastlord in a beast herd counting 20, the total US of 21 will be able to outnumber most opponents, and they will receive 2 ranks.

You should never count outnumber into combat res if you have 21 models.. 30 maybe, 20, never. Oh a magic missile and volley of fire or two and that herd is below 16 models and taking a panic test... Its so easy to panic that herd itd unreal.


In a challenge, 2 succesfull hits (and that is about average) will give you +5 CR for overkill, +1/+2 wounds from the beastlord himself, +1/+2 for wounds from the beastherd, +2 ranks, +1 for the standard,

In a challenge the Beast lord will hit 3 times. Wound twice, and if your lucky the enemy will fail 1 save. thus you do an average of 4 wounds (the intial wound +3 extra) Thats +4., then 2 ranks and standard.

A amazing 7...


and possible another +1 for a war banner.

a war banner the herd cant have.


This unit is skirmishers, has got 21 men, and can break most enemy units much more expensive. But my questions is, would this be good in real? I haven't played large battles yet so I haven't seen fit to try out but it looks really interesting to me

No. any unit more expensive will most likely win. And beast herds are so fragile they really arnt good CC unit. what would you do against a enemy with 3 ranks standard and outnumber?

Your losing by 2 before blows are struck and if they have a character he should carve through you herd.

Dead Man Walking
29-10-2007, 21:33
Demon sword is not better, I would never take a sword that gives you 7+ attacks and wounds you on a roll of a 1. You might go running in and pop your own character and even if you dont do it the first time you swing theres always the big chance you will kill yourself in round 2 of combat if no one breaks. They say stick it on your lvl 4 mage, do you really want to end up killing your -own- level 4 mage with a bad die roll? Not only do you remove 300+ points from your army but you loose all that casting power and dispel ability. When your lord dies its game over.

L192837465
29-10-2007, 22:25
Demon sword is not better, I would never take a sword that gives you 7+ attacks and wounds you on a roll of a 1. You might go running in and pop your own character and even if you dont do it the first time you swing theres always the big chance you will kill yourself in round 2 of combat if no one breaks. They say stick it on your lvl 4 mage, do you really want to end up killing your -own- level 4 mage with a bad die roll? Not only do you remove 300+ points from your army but you loose all that casting power and dispel ability. When your lord dies its game over.

then you're playing the game herohammer, not warhammer. if you rely on your lord winning the game for you, prepare to lose... a lot.

Neknoh
29-10-2007, 22:32
The Daemonsword and the Hellfire sword both have their uses, and they are both on a Beastlord, the Daemonsword should be put on a Beastlord of Khorne or Slaanesh in a smallish-herd for maximum effect, the herd is not big enough to attract attention away from your Knights, your Exalted Champion general and your Marauder Horsemen, however, it is hiding a Greater Daemon that cannot be shot dead on the spot (do also note that a Beastlord with the Daemonsword, Enchanted Shield and heavy armour has a 3+ armoursave and costs LESS than a naked Chaos Lord of the same mark).

The use of the Hellfire Sword is often found in larger games where either a Slaaneshi Lord or a normal Beastlord gets to carry the sword in dedication to monster-hunting, one or two wound is often enough to bring down Giants and Dragons of various kinds, dropping them both left and right. Treemen being hit by the sword is a laughing matter, the treeman takes 2+(D6x2) wounds, that is simply nasty.

mark.
29-10-2007, 22:55
Yes indeed I forgot to mention that, the hellfire sword is also great when facing monsters, and flammable things.

And I don't think a chaos deamonsword is so good, that you hit yourself on a 1 is pretty annoying I think, you will be wound on a 2+ and only have got a 6+ armor save left, that means that you're down after less the 3 combat rounds withhout even taking into account the enemy can hit back themself.

But this is about the hellfire sword and one person said that it would not be good, but actually, not much people concentrate firepower on just a beast herd, they understimate it and think it is a very cheap and bad unit. And THAT is where you can take advantage, you can attack units of the other player and he thinks he will win very easy, but then his champion gets challanged and receives alot of wounds (S5 does -2 AS and most normal champions or heroes don't have got maxed armor saves) in most occasions you will be able to get a huge combat resolution and break the opponent and maybe break his entire line. Just with a unit of simple beasts, while your knights of khorne draw all the attention of the enemy.

Im just saying that it may be situational, but on many occasions this might be good, on monsters for example, or normal units... Just not on armor save monsters like knights. Also the fact that the herd is skirmish and M5 means it is very movable and that helps also in getting the charge etc...

This is just what I think, in no way this is my experience on the battlefield.

Neknoh
29-10-2007, 23:18
As said, the sword is an occasional weapon, to field it in an allcomers list would reduce an expensive character to a mere character-hunter (with the added bonus of, on average, killing an ogre-sized model per wound), and as such, there are better things to bring in a game where you do not know what you will be facing.

And I have to agree on the fact that if you bring a large beastherd and sling a Beastlord in it, that herd WILL be shot at, I personally would preffer a smaller herd with a Daemonsword (btw, so far, over the course of several battles, the Daemonsword has yet to thwart my Slaaneshi Beastlord, besides, there's really not that much left in btb to hit back at him. Not to mention the fact that if you use "and what if they hit back" as an argument, you have to consider that the Hellfire Sword is, in fact, vastly inferior to the Daemonsword on this point, due to the Hellfire Sword NOT being able to kill more Rank and File troops than normal).

I started a massive weapons-discussion over at the Herdstone some time ago, I'll see if I can find it


EDIT: And find it I did

http://s2.invisionfree.com/herdstone/index.php?showtopic=4103

Please do remember, this is an OLD thread :p

therisnosaurus
30-10-2007, 02:04
the hellsword is actually quite a nasty prospect if used correctly- you don't go character hunting with it, you go for unit champions, where you'll probably do a couple of wounds, and get that full +6 CR.

Goat T
30-10-2007, 02:15
I use the hellfire sword in my Doom Bull army. With 2 units of minotaurs are my can openers. The Dragon Ogres are my str 7 chariot busters / can openers. my Bestigors can nasty with there great weapons. I take the Hellfire sword because it offers somethign unique, and also forces champions to the back rank as they would get massacred in a challenge.

sulla
30-10-2007, 05:10
Daemonsword is better as noted.



It is certainly better at killing it's user. And equipping a sorceror lord with it is not the best choice. 1)It can kill him as quick as his opponent can.
2) Sorcerors are for casting spells, not fighting. Plenty of chaos spells can't be cast without LoS or while in combat meaning you are paying a lot for a guy who is (while in combat) not casting to his full potential and also killing himself simultaneously.

The sword of might is about the best magic weapon choice for chaos lords IMO.

Kamizanate
30-10-2007, 06:16
I prefer the Hellfire sword, as it can be combined with the Helm of Many Eyes. Especially viable against Ogres, if you put your Lord on the flank of your knight/warrior unit, you can allow it to be charged and still win combat.

mark.
30-10-2007, 16:26
Oh that is an interesting thread, indeed it says that the hellfire sword is - altough in many occasions - situational. Well this answers my question, I think I will try it out myself, it seems strong, but it still is not super strong and still costs a well amount of points. I will see :)

W0lf
30-10-2007, 19:13
I prefer the Hellfire sword, as it can be combined with the Helm of Many Eyes. Especially viable against Ogres, if you put your Lord on the flank of your knight/warrior unit, you can allow it to be charged and still win combat.

Give him a great weapon and helm and hes even more likely to win combat...

Not to mention saving 69 pts.

Neknoh
30-10-2007, 19:32
It is certainly better at killing it's user. And equipping a sorceror lord with it is not the best choice. 1)It can kill him as quick as his opponent can.
2) Sorcerors are for casting spells, not fighting. Plenty of chaos spells can't be cast without LoS or while in combat meaning you are paying a lot for a guy who is (while in combat) not casting to his full potential and also killing himself simultaneously.

The sword of might is about the best magic weapon choice for chaos lords IMO.

The an Exalted Sorceror using the Lore of Slaanesh is the ONLY sorceror who would ever use the Sword, and he would then prefferably be placed in a chariot, giving him a good enough save NOT to kill himself whilst being offensive enough.

Remember, the Lore of Slaanesh has ONE, I repeat, ONE spell that requires Line of Sight, and that spell has a very short range (and as such, you cast it the turn before you charge).

Latro
30-10-2007, 23:28
Oh that is an interesting thread, indeed it says that the hellfire sword is - altough in many occasions - situational.

The situation here is code green. Not as in "green is safe" ... but green as in "did that tree just move?". I've had it up to here with Treemen and my Chaos armies are not setting any foot outside the door without the Hellfire Sword.


:evilgrin:

Belerophon709
30-10-2007, 23:49
The situation here is code green. Not as in "green is safe" ... but green as in "did that tree just move?". I've had it up to here with Treemen and my Chaos armies are not setting any foot outside the door without the Hellfire Sword.


:evilgrin:

I had my chaos lord w. 6 knights charged by 4 treekin and a treeman in unison last week. The treekin managed to do diddly while the treeman took out a single knight.
In return, the knights did 2 wounds to the treekin and the lord himself did a whooping 10 wounds (Ten, 1-0, 9+1) with rending sword, leaving the treekin. Come my turn I managed chopped down the treeman with my lord. To add insult to injury, even if I hadn't chopped him down, he was under the influence of 'The Beast Cowers', so he wouldn't have been able to fight back.
Two truly glorious rounds those were. :cool:

Oddly, I find WE to be one of the more 'manageable' armies for my chaos force. Brets however.... Ick.... Getting that churning feeling in my stomach again...

:(

On topic: Both swords are situational if you ask me, both have their uses and both have their downsides, with points cost being a major issue with both, since it leaves your character vulnerable (imo anyways).
I usually go for a more moderate approach using rending sword / chaos runesword for my multiple wounds/stat boosting needs. The runesword won't quite turn your sorceror into a combat freak, but it leaves your lord with enough points left over to spend on AoD or Gaze of the Gods.

Guess it all comes down to how aggressive you want to be and/or appear.

Kamizanate
31-10-2007, 04:31
Give him a great weapon and helm and hes even more likely to win combat...

Not to mention saving 69 pts.

It depends if he is mounted or not. It also depends what charges him. If its cavalry with a champion or monsters, the Hellfire sword will give better CR.

sulla
31-10-2007, 06:20
The an Exalted Sorceror using the Lore of Slaanesh is the ONLY sorceror who would ever use the Sword, and he would then prefferably be placed in a chariot, giving him a good enough save NOT to kill himself whilst being offensive enough.

Remember, the Lore of Slaanesh has ONE, I repeat, ONE spell that requires Line of Sight, and that spell has a very short range (and as such, you cast it the turn before you charge).

Don't forget he can't use that chariot armour for his cc save, only vs shooting... so t4, as 4+... and hits himself with one sixth of his attacks, wounding on a 2, no armour save...

Of course, if you can get off enraptouring spasms, you'll hit automatically but I'll tell you this; I've played the guy many times and he is very good at killing himself. Usually his opponent will only need to give him one wound and he will do the rest.

xmbk
01-11-2007, 18:17
Did you hear about the time the Hellfire sword did over 30 wounds in a single round? Hit a TK King with the Collar. He kept displacing wounds onto the rest of his unit, then CR crumble kicked in.

Killed a King and 2 units in a single round. True story.

Khorghan
01-11-2007, 19:05
^^^^
that is a good story!




That and I dont let any dirty beasts into my pure chaos army :p

the army would be a beast army(asuming your using 2000 points) and beastmen ARE chaos, if you dont think they are your stupid

Axis
04-11-2007, 04:23
then you're playing the game herohammer, not warhammer. if you rely on your lord winning the game for you, prepare to lose... a lot.

Amen. Amen. Amen.

On a similar note, I have found the more games i play of fantasy the less magic weapons i buy. I play skaven though so i don't know if that affects anything (i am about to start a chaos army). I have found that a great weapon is usually more effective.

FlylikeaMouse
05-11-2007, 15:54
the army would be a beast army(asuming your using 2000 points) and beastmen ARE chaos, if you dont think they are your stupid

Looks like I'm stupid.
The beasts still ain't creeping in though.
Such a bunch of fuggers.

Skyldig
05-11-2007, 16:20
Question, doesn't the hellfire sword cancel armour saves as well? Seems like it in the armybook, yet noone mentions it.

"Causes an additional D6 wounds with no armour saves allowed"

ViperMagnum357
09-11-2007, 04:42
The Hellfire Sword doesn't ignore armour saves. Roll to hit and wound normally-whatever passes for normal on a Lord of Chaos-then, for each unsaved wound, that model takes an extra D6 wounds with no armour saves allowed(still get ward saves versus extra wounds:cries:). All attacks and extra wounds are flaming, so no regeneration and double wounds versus treemen and mummies. Each wound, even if it kills a zombie seven times:eek:, count toward combat resolution, with the exception of max +5 overkill in challenges. So, 5 in 6 chance , (2+), chance of one wound outright killing a treeman. Shreds Ogres, Giants, trolls, minotaurs and Dragons like no ones business. Since all wounds count toward combat resolution, one lord can technically beat a whole regiment on his own, then make them run screaming or crumble to dust. One of my personal favorites:cool:.