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W0lf
29-10-2007, 19:33
How viable is a oldblood on a carnosaur?

I really really really love the model and desperatly want to field him but im just not sure hes a good investment. Cannons, magic missiles and bolthrowers scare the crap outta this guy. Oh and dont mention massed fire ether.

And theres the fact it takes a hero slot! (so no scroll caddy + 2vets with the oldly like id like...)

I wish to stay away from the slaan as my other army is a Tzeentch army with 15 power dice so....

ANy of you field him? see him fielded? is he worth it? what makes him good?

Lastly what set-up is good? The Mirroed shield seems a no-brainer to deter magic missiles, but what else?

Killgore
29-10-2007, 20:08
If he looks cool then take him!

******** to army effectivness, if you like the look of something fit it into your army.

W0lf
29-10-2007, 20:12
Not if its going to lose games i wont....

I dotn care if the army looks kl if it cant win or my carnosaur is dead 2nd turn everygame..

dosnt look so cool when nearly 500 pts of lord on carnosaur is in your dead pile before its killed anything eh?

Dead Man Walking
29-10-2007, 20:16
It is not really viable unless you field the special character. I dont remember if it takes up extra slots (Rare or hero) but besides being missile target #1 it doesnt have a great armor save, and is a huge points sink which could be used getting things on the table that can win a round for you. You cant screen him by putting him in a unit since it is higher than US 4 and its far more efficient to put him on a coldone in a cold one unit. You may be mounted but theres no barding bonus and you loose the HWS armor bonus.

Your only options are to spend 3-4 turns skirting around terrain in hopes of not getting shot or you can bull rush and hope you get there in good enough shape to win. It doesn't really make its points back by itself though.

You can however play him for fun but I wouldnt put him in a tourney. I tend to run him with two stegadons. I spread them out with carny in middle and steggies about a foot away. If you can get a steggy to hit something at the same time the lord on carny does you will crush it, with two steggies hitting you will obliterate it.

The special character is nice if you have enough cold ones to fill the core requirements for his army, its a fast moving hard hitting army and the character has the added bonus of special wounding rules and a built in magic missile that can strike multiple units.

You will however not beat well played dwarfs with this model. They will be hitting with bolt throwers on a 3 or 2, that and just because you slam into a dwarf unit doesn't mean it will even come close to breaking. You can roll small units like thunderers and artillery, but if your using 500 pnts on that stuff you probably lost already.

Hvidponi
29-10-2007, 20:24
I had success with him.... He is mean enough to take down units himself... The works even better for me than a flyer does, becuase I always end up placeing the flyer in some stupid position... :D

I think he is worth it...

But then again... I almost never play versus gunlines... Hmm...

Flypaper
30-10-2007, 02:55
He's a metagame choice, really. If the armies you play against can kill him off easily, he's obviously not worth it; but he's not exactly bad either - you're not seriously handicapping yourself by taking him.

The Mirroed shield seems a no-brainer to deter magic missiles, but what else?
Ugh, no. The Mirrored Shield is way too expensive for how unreliable it is. The standard way to keep your dude alive is the Aura of Quetzl*, and usually the Blessed Spawning of Chotek. There really isn't much you can do to keep the carny itself alive beyond its T5 and five wounds, unfortunately.

The most common build is as follows:
BS of Itzl, Sotek and Chotek
Light Armour, [weapon], Enchanted Shield, Aura of Quetzl

...Where [weapon] varies depending on what you want the Oldblood to specialise in, and on how much you want to spend! The best and most common options are (from most to least expensive) the Scimitar of the Sun Resplendent (11 attacks vs RnF!), the Piranha Blade (monster/character-killer build), or a mundane Spear (budget!).

Other tricks include the Maiming Shield and the Bane Head, but they're more cute than effective. It's a pity you can't run Scimitar+Maiming without dropping the Aura, though. :(



And theres the fact it takes a hero slot! (so no scroll caddy + 2vets with the oldly like id like...)
To be honest, I'd avoid running a full complement of characters in a Lizardmen army, unless you're trying to max out magic via Priests or something. Our Saurus characters have the same leadership as the Saurii troops, so they don't add much resilience to units; and our killy troops are dangerous enough on their own and don't need characters to back them up.

Generally, Saurus characters should be used for specific and specialised roles - which is why the JSoD is so popular. What else is there? BSB on a Cold One, or a Sword of the Hornet wielder as a nasty suprise in a Saurus block are all that spring to mind. :p

*Edit: The Aura can be replaced with the Glyph Necklace if you're more worried about (S4) magic than cannon or bolt throwers
Edit #2: If you insist on taking the Mirrored Shield, then take it once. After that you can drop it and leave your opponent wondering whether you have it or not. :p

gerrymander61
30-10-2007, 09:39
I've had quite a bit of success with him actually. I fielded him in a regular looking army with block saurus, Kroxigor, Salamanders... No Saurus Cav or Stegadons. I also took 2 units of 3 terradons, and 1 unit of 10 skink scouts. I ran it against a DE army with 4 bolt throwers and it did fine. Tried again against an Empire army which wasn't totally decked out for gunline action but had its fair share of cannons, helblasters, and whatnot, and it worked again.

The Carnosaur Saurus is mean enough to take on an entire regiment by itself, if you give him the scimitar of sun resplendent, and if it loses combat? Big deal. Cold blooded means it'll stay a long time in combat and t5 carno and 2+ armour save saurus means it'll live. Plus the Carnosaur gets meaner after one round because it gains frenzy.

Another trick is to grab a JSoD and have him charge along with the Carno Old blood.

Red_Duke
30-10-2007, 10:42
Hmm, how about giving him the Aura of Quetzl? given your T5, having something that will give you a 4+ ward save against anything that has a good chance of wounding you (i.e. S5+) should help keep him alive a bit, especially when combined with the old ones spawning... (not sure however as to whether the ward save will protect the carnosaur as well mind you)

Other than that, perhaps just taking some units of chamelion skinks and terradons to try and deal with the worst of the enemy war machines, and keep him in cover for the first turn while they tie things up?

W0lf
30-10-2007, 18:06
'Another trick is to grab a JSoD and have him charge along with the Carno Old blood.'

Why did i never see this?

Oh Gods yes... its perfect...

and ive just realised... cannons are likely to need 2 shots to kill the carnie (hes got 5 wounds and cannon will do a average of 3.5 wounds)

Hmmm... and i was just writting the list with the slann... back to the drawing board!

forgottenlor
30-10-2007, 18:13
I would consider playing him in a fast army where everything looks juicy to shoot. Carnosaur, 1 unit of terradons, 1 unit of calvary, 2X kroxigores, 1 stegadon, 1 unit of salamanders, and lots of skinks with at least 1 unit of scouts. You could also take the skink chieftan with the feathered cloark, sotek, and the sword of might as an assassin. Then use your last hero choice for a scroll caddy. The problem with Lizardmen as a whole, I find is that they are not pretty against a shooting army. Ok, so panic is not a problem, but your models tend to have a very high point cost in relation to their durability. I find going fast at least makes up for this because when your units arrive, its often lights out for whoever is facing you.

Atzcapotzalco
31-10-2007, 02:27
He's a metagame choice, really. If the armies you play against can kill him off easily, he's obviously not worth it; but he's not exactly bad either - you're not seriously handicapping yourself by taking him.

Ugh, no. The Mirrored Shield is way too expensive for how unreliable it is. The standard way to keep your dude alive is the Aura of Quetzl*, and usually the Blessed Spawning of Chotek. There really isn't much you can do to keep the carny itself alive beyond its T5 and five wounds, unfortunately.


To be honest, I'd avoid running a full complement of characters in a Lizardmen army, unless you're trying to max out magic via Priests or something. Our Saurus characters have the same leadership as the Saurii troops, so they don't add much resilience to units; and our killy troops are dangerous enough on their own and don't need characters to back them up.

Generally, Saurus characters should be used for specific and specialised roles - which is why the JSoD is so popular. What else is there? BSB on a Cold One, or a Sword of the Hornet wielder as a nasty suprise in a Saurus block are all that spring to mind. :p


I have to say, I don't quite see how the aura of quetzl is so much more reliable than the shield-both have the same probability of working, and both have a big weakness in being effective only against specific attacks, and the shield does at least protect the entire model. More importantly, in reflecting spells the shield not only has a chance to damage an opposing unit, but also has a big psychological impact-once an opponent knows your lord has it, he is liable to stop targetting your lord with magic missiles altogether in favour of less dangerous targets. This might be to the detriment of the rest of your army, but if one unit is worth protecting at the cost of the others, the shield is very good at that.
Of course, the specific nature of both items means their usefulness varies wildly between armies-while completely magic free armies are uncommon, magic missiles are a small subset of the spells in use, and not all armies use artillery-significantly, neither protect against low strength missiles which do tend to be a threat to large monsters in my experience. If it can avoid getting shot, the oldblood plus carnosaur is a fearsome melee fighter, but like many large monsters getting shot is a big risk.

Flypaper
31-10-2007, 11:14
I have to say, I don't quite see how the aura of quetzl is so much more reliable than the shield-both have the same probability of working, and both have a big weakness in being effective only against specific attacks
That's a fair point - and I should point out that it's why I suggested 'metagaming' to the Glyph Necklace in my edit if you're more worried about S3-4 magic/shooting. The main reason why I think the Aura is superior to the Shield overall is that hey, you've got high Toughness working for you against the low-power stuff.

Other points:
- Magic can be defended against with magic of your own, in a way in which you can't against cannonballs. Other tricks (Terradons, hiding behind woods) work pretty much equally against magic and artillery, so they're a bit of a wash.
- Mirrored Shield = no Enchanted Shield, so you're missing out on that nice cheap +1 armour.
- The Aura has considerable CC applications, whereas the Shield's significance drops to nearly nothing once you get stuck in.

...Finally, neither is any use at all against low-strength shooting taking incidental wounds off the Carnie. Particularly if you're in a mirror match and have to deal with opposing poison blowpipe shots! :p

FMA
31-10-2007, 15:29
my 2cc - as a dwarf player I was really disappointed when this thingy got into cc and the lizardlord had the weapon +1S no armour saves :(

Malorian
01-11-2007, 21:46
He doesn't find his way into my regular list, but I do use him if I'm not against a gun line (I'm used to playing empire and DE).

When I used him against the vampire counts he did fairly well. His carnosaur did die to some bansees, but then he was deep in his zone and caused a lot of harm.

I always bring him along, but 90% of the time I use the slann.

SteelTitan
02-11-2007, 07:31
I use a carnie in my standard list, cant remember the exact configuration but it does include a great weapon and an aura of quetzl. Off course, they'll try to kill it fast but what I do when facing lots of shooting i just try to run it in a unit asap. Usually there is something within charge range on turn 2, allowing ur opponent only 1 turn of shooting. As long as you make sure you're not running into his hardest bad-ass units, this strategy works well enough to justify you using him. A fully painted carnie with an oldblood on top looks so kick-ass...that alone is worth it...combined with his potential if used right (and not suffering from some extremely bad luck) I would say go for it ;)

Tuna
02-11-2007, 09:15
I would say it's viable, it can dish out 14 st 5 attacks! With and Oldblood marked sotek and the +1 attack shield and the +3 attack sword (or is it 2?) it rocks :D

Goq Gar
02-11-2007, 11:41
You've obviously never faced a high elf on a dragon with one.

Their face is priceless.

"d3 wounds per hit. oh look, I hit twice. *dragon goes flop* now whats the toughness of your hero? ... did you say 3? Oh joy."

scarvet
02-11-2007, 14:20
Goq Gar (dam you stole a character's name):I bet you haven't do in to a hell cannon or steam tank yet, its even funnier ;)
And no, Goq Gar is not better than a normal Oldblood unless you want a Cold one rider army so bad (those guys is even worse compare to the Carni).
I play may Carnosaur like a 40k unit, and the Oldblood provide Leadership to terradons and sinks, which also help to lurk enemy out.
I use him mainly for unit killing, Scimitar+Aura of Quetzl, blessing of Tepok+Quetzl+Itzal, and of couse light armour and shield. He isn't cheap at all, but he is on the fine balance that function on all phases. I also take a Blade of Revered Tzunki against my Empire friends, yes he get even more expansive but you opponent will fear it so much its no funny.

My concretion on the Carnosaur will be this: there isn't any better(cooler, characterful) set up for the OldBlood; a pair of puma is fun, but I will leave those suicidal attack to the scar-veteran; Cold one means you want riders with him, which doesn't look as impressive and you probably pay more in the end; Walk with Saurus, It will be cool if they all have Huanchi but he will be on a 25mm base instead of 50.

*Note: I also blame GW for no having a awesome Oldblood on foot nor Coldone

brambleten
04-11-2007, 19:07
i virtually always use a carnosaur, just because in my first game of using him, in the second turn, he made 1500pts of my opponents 2k DE dissapear of the board, wetting their pants.
combo
Oldblood
SS Itzl, SS Quetzl, SS Sotek
Scimitar of sun replesdent, glyph necklace, enchanted shield, light armour

the only time he has let me down is against a dwarf player where he took 20 organ gun shots in a single turn, and died. i then had the pleasure of smashing them with my steggy :D

brambleten
04-11-2007, 19:09
oh, that gives him 8 attacks on the charge with a 1+ AS and a 5+ WS, then carnosaur

Braad
05-11-2007, 07:40
A little something, in case you haven't come up with this. As far as I know, Old blood and scar vet have the same leadership, so if you field the carnosaur, make sure you gut a scar vet somewhere else to act as general. Makes it a bit less frustrating when the carno-dude gets shot to pieces.

Flypaper
05-11-2007, 08:32
Well, that's only really useful if you've given him the Jaguar charm or a Cold One - since Saurus have the same leadership as well, a general's only actually useful to your fast-moving elements.

(This, for the record, is why Saurus heroes are 'too cheap' for their stats - they're not much use as leadership boosters)

Atzcapotzalco
05-11-2007, 16:24
A lot of those faster units are better used for supporting your main infantry though, and therefore still liable to benefit from a foot general.
However, the main use of placing a lesser hero in charge would be to deny your opponent the VP bonus for killing your general, since the oldblood is both a very big target and one you won't want to withhold from combat.
One magic item I'm surprised hasn't been mentioned yet is the amulet of Itzl-although one-use only, it's nearly as good as an extra wound, with the bonus of stopping all the wounds from a cannonball, and unlike the aura of Quetzl effective against any attacks.

guillaume
05-11-2007, 17:22
To the question, is a carnosaur a viable choice.

I say yes. I've used one in all my 2000+ armies, and I generally prefer to play with a carnie than a slann. Somehow, the cc possibilities of the Oldblood on a carnosaur are more constant than the capricious magic of the slann.

I run my carnosaur and the oldblood mainly as a heavy armour unit killer (I use that weapon that has +1St and no armour save). Generally I just throw it at cavalry. I know the kroxigors are supposed to take on that, but so does everybody who has played warhammer, therefore my kroxigors have a hard time finding worthy targets.

Plus the carnosaur model is absolutely terrifying and as that real Lord feeling when you are looking at a fully painted army on the table. Sure it will take time and effort to get it done, but it is so worth it.

Flypaper
06-11-2007, 08:06
One magic item I'm surprised hasn't been mentioned yet is the amulet of Xapati
...possibly because it hasn't been legal since 2003, as far as I can make out. :eyebrows:

Or was it re-introduced in Chronicles, or the Lustria book, or one of those other money-grabs?

Edit: and Google tells me it had more to do with reversing an enemy magic phase than it did stopping cannonballs. Maybe you have a different item in mind?

Edit #2: ...possibly the Amulet of Itzl? It seems somewhat overpriced for what it does, IMO.

Atzcapotzalco
06-11-2007, 08:36
Yes, I meant the amulet of Itzl, that was a typo. Myself, I wouldn't consider it overpriced-Like I said already, it's very close to being an extra wound, and has the bonus of stopping multi-wound attacks which an oldblood on a carnosaur is likely to get hit by.

Kroxigore
06-11-2007, 13:29
I personally like the following setup for an oldblood on carny:

OB with BS of itzl, Quetzl and old ones, blessed shield, glyph necklace and either the sword of might or the burning blade of chotek (I believe, this is the english translation). That Guy is pretty hard to destroy and remember, that one re-roll on a to wound roll is better than one attack more!
The really nice thing about Carnies is, that the guy on top now gains one attack as well, because of the new frenzy rules.

I think, the best tactical advice for an army with an old blood is to take a Stegadon also. If the Carny gets killed, at least the Stegadon gets through. Few armies have enough firepower to kill both.

dgraz
29-11-2007, 22:44
You can also use a steg to screen your carnie. Large targets block LOS to other large targets.

As to the scar-vet as general. I use the JSOD build and deploy him in a salamander unit. Deploy krox and terries nearby to benefit from his leadership. Deploy saurus or SCOR farther out as they don't need the help. Also, this is extremely viable in a fast moving list.

Dead Man Walking
29-11-2007, 23:10
There is a debate as to a char joining sally units. Some people say it counts as handler and monsters rules, (they are called skink handlers not skinks and the sallys roll on monster chart.) and characters can not join monsters.

dgraz
29-11-2007, 23:25
Well, until GW clarifies this rule, there is no debate.