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therisnosaurus
30-10-2007, 04:19
Heya, I thought I’d run up a unit-by unit tactical analysis and tips series for the new high elves, since I’ve been looking at them in detail and they’re one of my favourite armies. There’s been a lot of discussion about how certain units are now awesometastic, but less about how they all fit into the grand scheme of things. So, we’ll go down the list in general order

Lords:

Prince: Previously HE combat heroes were difficult to use effectively in most contexts, as if charged even a prince could often be killed by moderately elite enemy before he got to strike, taking him out (and more importantly, a stack of points with him) early. This was countered by mounting HE heroes to increase their durability and their speed, allowing them to charge and get their nasty hits off before any painful reprisals. Speed of Asuryan has negated that weakness entirely, and given a HE prince a powerful new option-not only does he strike first, but he can get a beasty +2 strength for a mere 12ish points, as opposed to 30-40 points out of the magic items allowance this costs other races. The great weapon toting-foot lord will no doubt become a lot more popular, leading units of spearmen or phoenix guard that have trouble dishing out the pain on their own. Since he now inevitably attacks before the foe, only the toughest of opposition will survive to be able to strike back, meaning the t3 and low armor save from not having a shield (though even this can be negated with the armor of caledor) is less of an issue. The other advantage speed brings is less obvious but even more significant. Since princes now get always strikes first (25pts) combined with +2 strength from a great weapon (usually worth 35-40 on a magic item) without eating up any magic item points, you’re under a lot less pressure to take that big hitty sword and you’ve more freedom to play with the other parts of the magic arsenal- enchanted items, armor and talismans. Take for example this combo – a prince with a great weapon, armor of caledor, radiant gem of hoeth and sacred incense. The radiant gem allowing him to take ‘the bear’s anger’ means unaugmented, your prince has a mere 4 strength 6 attacks. If the enemy let his little sneaky spell slip through, he gets a mighty SEVEN strength 6 attacks while still maintaining a 2+ save, toughness 4 (woo, T4 elf :D). Oh, and if you want to shoot him, he and his unit are -1 to hit. And he gives you dispel dice... not bad at all. That sort of combat prowess, combined with his leadership and the other anti-magic, anti shooting support he can bring makes a prince a stunning line general even on foot. Mounted princes are best used with conservative equipment. Dragon princes are quite capable of breaking anything without any characters nearby, so putting your prince in a unit of silver helms is a better option. His 4 attacks makes up for their less potent charge and their more significant numbers ensure he won’t be likely to get picked off or run down after a bad run of combat (a unit of 12 is probably good) give him the sacred incense and get a shield of saphery off on the unit, and you have a force that can take the firepower of an entire army and walk out relatively unscathed.
Still, with the increased lethality of the HE cavalry, characters are more needed in the ranks of the infantry where their attacks and strength can dull enemy assaults and their leadership will prevent your skirt wearing pansies from fleeing from a single bad combat.

Suggested optimal field:
Prince: armor of caledor, great weapon, gem of hoeth, sacred incense.

The Archmage: archmages have undergone less of a renovation, they were always pretty good anyhow. Their increased benefits come from their magic lore which will be analysed later. However, with SOA, putting them In the front rank of say a unit of swordmasters is a good tactic. If the unit gets charged, the swordmasters will hopefully cut down the foe able to strike the archmage, and in turn they benefit from his increased leadership and any protective wards he happens to be carrying. Archmages can also now be mounted on a dragon, which opens up some fairly nasty options. The moon dragon’s breath means the mage doesn’t have to be in combat to be good, and with the 7th ed lores, that sort of manoeverability can make a mess of the enemy. Example:
Archmage level 4, seer staff, lore of light, golden crown of atrazar. Spell picks: healing hand, pha’s illumination, cleansing flare, guardian light: Here you have a fairly durable, reliable spellcaster who can heal himself or his dragon, give himself 3 strength 5 attacks and negate enemy magic weapons, do d6 str 5 hits to all enemy within 12” or make all friendlies within 12” autorally and immune to psych. It’s those last two that will scare your foe- d6 str 5 hits to everything within 12 when your mage will be prancing around behind their lines on a big bad dragon is not something they want to hear. Equally, he can ignore the first wound he suffers, and then heal himself or pookums from then on meaning even a concerted effort to get rid of him will probably fail… (you can also try lore of life- gift of life combined with a dragon is just nuts, as is the howler wind… oh look, you can’t shoot me :P)
Suggested optimal field:

Archmage: Moon dragon, level 4, seer staff, golden crown.


Commander: the humble commander is now a must either toting a great weapon in a line unit of spears with some antimagic or as a BSB. With ASF and the potential to take a shield (meaning a 3+ save even without magic items) a BSB is a lot less vulnerable and suddenly that battle banner is a lot more tempting… oh and those re-rolls with units like white lions and the stubborn spell hanging around is invaluable. You can also get them that oh so lovely starlance, and since they ain’t as valuable as a prince, take some risks with it a possible good use might be a commander mounted on great eagle (if still allowed) with the starlance and heavy armor/shield. With strength 7 no armor save magical attacks, this little beauty can hit and run treemen, butcher warmachine crews , flank heavy cavalry, moan monsters and generally make a nuisance of itself while maintaining the low profile only a small flyer can. As with the prince though, I think the place for combat characters are in the ranks of your infantry nowadays, just in case they come up against something they can’t deal with by themselves.

Suggested optimal field: Commander, heavy armor, great weapon, reaver bow, amulet of the flame



Mage: Same deal as the archmage, except they can’t take a dragon (awwww… diddums). A HE army should ALWAYS have at least one regular mage or archmage, that +1 dispel is invaluable particularly with less mega-dice casting attempts these days. Keep your mages in units where ASF will keep them safe and use them to ward your boys and smash the foe as always.

Suggested optimal field: Mage, jewel of dusk, sacred incense, level 2.

The Dragon mage: A vibrant new addition to the list, I’ve already analysed this guy, so I’ll just copy in my thoughts from there
while not a hugely powerful individual, he will be a useful addition to most armies. lots of wounds and a high toughness on the dragon means the enemy won't get those points easily, so from that perspective he's quite worth it from a points denial perspective (especially if you have to take half the wounds off the model as a whole to get your half points). Secondly, the auto pick of FSOR means that, used correctly, he won't be half a slouch in combat either. The ability to negate ranks and the dragon's s 5 attacks mean he'll be brilliant for putting the fear of god into horde/t3 armies, swung round their flank. Terror doesn't hurt that any.
However, the BIG advantage of this guy is the free dice he generates. A good plan is to field him with the silver wand, giving him three spells. Cast 2 on one dice and one on two (fireball, flaming sword and firey blast for example) to give you three free dice- that one level 2 mage is putting out seven PD worth of spells a turn! In games where the enemy has little magic defence, that alone can overwhelm the foe. I’m particularly looking forward to getting out the burning head with this fellow, as his dragon means he can get around the flank, and put a head all the way down their battle line. Be afraid horde armies, be very very afraid…
tactically, the boy also provides you with something very important- a free lord slot. With the increased price of HE units and the continuing lack of anything capable of smashing enemy knights, a prince is a must in most armies. leadership ten and the anti-armour attacks he can provide when kitted right can turn a spearman or seaguard unit into an almost impenetrable defensive unit, and also allows his leadership bubble to be where it is most needed rather than being off gallivanting on a star dragon.
Overall, the dragon mage excels at slaughtering horde armies. Panic inducing breath, terror, enough attacks to slaughter the flank of a t3 5+ save line unit, not to mention spells like the burning head and firey blast, all of this combines to make a unit that can obliterate the whole flank of a horde army solo. Against elite armies, like other elves or chaos, his power wanes a little (though he’ll be pretty fun against bretonnians…) Since horde armies are a weakness of HE, the dragon mage will do a lot to counteract that. Use him well.
Suggested optimal field: Dragon mage, level 2, silver wand, ring of fury



Core:

Spearmen: The rock solid core of the HE list, spearmen now take their place as one of the best core blocks around. They can’t beat off elites much better than they used to, but now they can devastate the regular line units of just about every other race with impunity. Which is nice. Still, a block of 20 is still going to set you back 200 points, no small change, and if that unit gets thumped by five knights, you’re still just as stuffed as you used to be. I think the key now is to use those characters. Spearmen by themselves are tough. Spearmen with a great weapon prince are untouchable. My recommended formation would be 20+1 character in 3 ranks of 7. Since you’re basically guaranteed to get those extra 6 attacks granted by the two extra files, against most units that’s worth a lot more than the single point of static CR generated by a rank (which you lose the moment the unit takes a casualty anyhow). Spearmen are worth every point you pay, so don’t neglect them. Often it’s better to go for spears over phoenix guard or swordmasters, particularly if you already have units like lion chariots, dragon princes and other mobile, hard hitting pain inducers.

Suggested optimal field: 21 spearmen, full command, banner of balance. Unit in 3x7 ranks, includes commander or prince.

Archers: there’s a lot of bitching about archers, and there always will be simply because people don’t use them right. Archers have one benefit- they can reach out and touch anywhere. Range and mobility while firing are their most valuable assets- use them. If you’re facing handgunners, deploy back and hit them, when they walk forward, you walk back- still hitting them. Etc. the other important thing is to use them on the right target. Here’s a basic rule- if it has a toughness of over 3, a save of better than 5+ or a unit strength of more than 15, it’s not the right target for archers. Some exceptions can be made- archers are great for hurting things like griffons or flyer units like carrion and screamers. The only time you should be targeting archers at a line unit is to inflict one casualty to knock off a point of rank bonus. Never aim to inflict casualties for panic or points on anything other than the above described units. In this role, archers remain as good as ever, which is to say, solid. They ain’t the best in the world, but they do their job well if you let them. ASF now gives them an added layer of protection against fast cav or flyer reprisals, and now if you grab a big unit (16-18) with standard, they can even do a job on things like skeletons or skaven that come their way if stuck on a hill… hit little units till the turn before they charge, put a solid round of shooting into them at close range, stand and shoot and then thump the sorry remnants

Suggested optimal field: 16 archers, full command, 2 ranks of 8

Seaguard: seaguard do a spearman’s job but also have a bit of ranged pointy death into the bargain. If you’re planning on taking seaguard, take a whole core selection of them- at least 2 moderate to large units. The great advantage of seaguard is now with ASF enemy have little incentive to charge you and so are likely to shoot your spearmen up rather than hitting them. Lothern seaguard, with their bows, can respond in kind, very effectively given a hill in the centre of the board or near your deployment. This forces the enemy to either evade their fire and make potential mistakes or charge in to stop the rain of death and find another kind- namely the pokey type. If you plan on playing your list aggressively, always go for seaguard over archers, for an extra point you get a 5+ save and an extra rank of attacks, making a unit that can provide an excellent detachment for spearmen or even a solid counter-support unit on its own. I think that while people are raving over spearmen at the moment, we’ll see more and more seaguard in competitive lists in the future as canny players learn to use those 3pt bows to force the enemy into making bad charges (or hurting the pants off things like griffons or giants that are dumb enough to come within range. 20 BS4 shots = funtimes.) an interesting formation worth trying might be this one 15 seaguard, banner. Deploy in in two ranks of eight + seven while advancing and shooting. When the enemy comes within charge range, reform a single rank (5 models) for your 3 ranks of five. Then you can shoot again, stand and shoot and take the charge with 15 ASF attacks. Quite enough to mush up low toughness hordes and enough to even frighten low armored bashers like orcs and saurus. Remember that since seaguard will usually get less shots than archers and be pointed at enemy battle line, they’re unlike to have the attempt to shoot at regular bow targets. In this case, you should aim for any units that have a full five models in their back rank, this means that even a single casualty will knock off a rank, which can make a big difference later in the game. Once that casualty has been caused, look for other targets, don’t waste your time (unless a spell or bolt thrower or so forth causes another 4 casualties and you can do the same again for the next rank…)
Suggested optimal field: 18 seaguard, 2 ranks of 9, reform to 3 ranks of 6 if threatened.

Special

Swordmasters: The most anticipated and I believe over-hyped new unit of late, swordmasters are nevertheless getting a serious facelift. 2 s5 attacks striking first is nothing to be laughed at, though, so they are pretty much worth their points. These guys are elite-killers, pure and simple. Any opposition with WS5- chaos warriors, other elven elites like eternal guard or executioners, etc will be prime targets for these boys, as their higher WS and good strength will make hitting and hurting them as easy as popping zombies in most cases. However, Swordmasters will still struggle against heavy cavalry in close combat, as they may crush one or two knights, but even horses can do the payback. Watch out for bretonnians, especially, due to their tiny frontage and blessing ward. The trick with swordmasters will be to take small units- 12-14- and use them to engage enemy infantry lategame. Shield them with another unit or keep them behind a hill or forest in reserve, then push them forward and give the enemy a choice- charge or be charged. Either way, you’ll win. If you use SM as a battle line unit, however, even hostile archers will take a heavy toll on them. You don’t want to have to waste a character in the unit (overkill) just to get the sacred incense (though a mage with it might be an idea) and they’ll be first target in every foe’s scopes. Used well, they’ll be amazing. Used badly, they’ll let you down something awful.

Suggested field: 14 swordmasters including full command, 2 ranks of 7

therisnosaurus
30-10-2007, 04:22
White lions: Oh man are these guys making me happy. I think in the end white lions will be the favourite choice for competitive play, they just have so much going for them. A 3+ save vs shooting is amazing, equaled only by chosen and ironbreakers in the infantry realms. As a line unit, you can stick these boys front and centre and they will take everything your opponent can throw at them. Stick the shield of saphery on them and they’ll be even harder to touch. Next up- str 6. Against cavalry this makes all the difference. Wounding things like chaos knights and black knights on 2’s and that extra -1 save more than makes up for the loss of an attack in practice, since the extra attacks are usually just overkill. Like swordmasters, wide ranks with lions is a good move, my suggestion would be 8- this means 9 attacks at a charging unit of 5 wide cavalry, assuming you have a champion. Quite enough to do a lot of damage. The other massive advantage lions now have is stubborn. In a line unit, grab the blessed tome for a LD9 stubborn bunch o’crunchies who won’t go anywhere even if you hit them with a unit of fifty khorne knights. Just look out for fear causing units that might actually win a combat (nurgle chosen knights or vamp led black knights are just about the only thing I can think of) and you’ll be fine. All this makes for a killer centre line unit- wide frontage, the almost obligatory book giving its extra LD radius, resistance to shooting and almost impossible to break. Compare that to your flimsy swordmasters and you have something that looks more and more inviting every way you look at it. The other nasty little trick you can play with your white lions now is field them in units of 5 or 6. Pop them in front of a huge enemy block of troops within the range of your bsb and watch them hold it up for the entire battle. Since they strike first, any retaliation will be severely muted, and particularly with troops like gobos, skellies or other WS2 troops, that tiny unit will be able to hold all game, and maybe even kill enough to get you half points. All for less than a hundred points. You can also use these nasty little units as flankers, or to go after enemy missile troops, running through woods and using their durability to threaten gunlines. Stubborn and ASF is an amazing combo, letting you force enemy charges, deal enough damage that the enemy will have extreme difficulty wiping you out and holding to the last man, allowing flankers to get into position or just genuinely making a mess of the enemy’s battle plan. Don’t underestimate the white lions, they’re back with a vengeance. A final tip is, with their strength 6, white lions are perfectly capable of assassinating enemy characters before they strike, so don’t be afraid to allocate two or three lions to have a crack at bashing an enemy hero on the noggin, even if you only do one wound (or two to a lord) you get your half points, which more than makes up for the couple of lions he’ll probably knock out in retaliation. If you finish him off, it’s a serious morale blow to the enemy and can throw their plans into disarray (particularly if it happens to be his or her general)

Suggested optimal field: 14 white lions in two ranks of 8+6, full command with blessed tome and standard of arcane protection.

Phoenix guard: Phoenix guard are now an interesting unit and very viable. Unlike the other two elite infantry groups they are best fielded in large blocks, making for an imposing presence. They also make a great unit to pop a character in, as their single s4 attack makes them a little more likely to suffer a few return slaps from the foe. Of course, with their spankin’ new 4+ wardsave, they can well afford this, but without the static combat res from ranks and standard they’ll inevitably lose combats and you don’t want your 400 point unit doing that. How to use them? Unlike the other HE elites, field them in standard 5 times whatever formations (I’d be going with five ranks of five). The big danger with this on regular elves is getting hit by rocks or mortar shells, as a square block of troops is a prime target. One 4+ wardsave later and this is looking a lot less scary for your guard than it is for your squishier swordmasters and lions. Give them a warbanner and just play a points denial game- your enemy will have to dedicate a lot of firepower to even hope to get the half points, if they charge it will end in a stalemate against even the most powerful units (you’ll aim for 6CR points off the bat, maybe one or two kills, they only kill three or four guard, combat ends in a win/loss of 1. Ld 9 means you can probably take that).
Phoenix guard are also the premier anti heavy cav unit in the high elf list now, with a 4+ save against anything they can throw at you and an extra 5+ save against the horsies, not to mention WS5, even chaos chosen knights will bounce off your guardsmen. Interestingly, their strength 4 attack is also quite sufficient against most heavy cav, reducing a 2+ save to a more manageable 3+, meaning you’ll probably knock off one attacker (allocate as many attacks at their champion as possible). This is especially true of bretonnians, who don’t get that damn 5+ ward. Finally, they cause fear, meaning the cav will have to pass a leadership test in order to charge you, so you can push forward to within your own charge range, they may potentially fail their test, meaning you can charge THEM next turn, meaning they lose the charge bonuses and will be pushed off for sure (especially small units that will be auto broken). Of course, that’s a lot of points in one unit, so you should use it wisely, to stimey and break an enemy line, allowing your own more mobile units (small white lions, dragon princes, chariots) to dart through the breaks and flank things. You can be certain though that the enemy will have to put his whole army into getting those points off you, because without a LOT of effort, it just won’t happen.

Suggested optimal field: 25 guard with full command, warbanner, champion has amulet of fire. 5 ranks of 5.

Dragon princes: as if they weren’t nasty enough, dragon princes now have two attacks. This puts them along the same lines as grail knights, saurus cavalry and chaos knights in terms of sheer killyness, but they have one big thing on all three of those (well, two of them) and that is a 16” move- BIG difference on a 14” move. Why? If you fail your charge and you’re just out, most infantry will still be outside their 8” charge. Immunity to breath is nice, as is LD9 for beating those annoying fear checks. In any case, dragon princes are now a premier heavy cav unit. Which means their role has changed drastically. Of old, they really needed ten models and a character to be sure of crushing hard enemy targets, now 5 or 6 with a warbanner will do that job quite adequately. They don’t need characters to be effective, nor do they really need a lot of models. At 30 points they’re the most affordable of the two attack cavalry, so a simple unit of 5 for a meager 150 points is often quite sufficient. Don’t feel the urge to go for overkill- 2 units of 5 is better than one of ten.

Suggested optimal field: 6 dragon princes with musician and standard with the war banner.

Silver helms: Silver helms are basically the same as before, except not core. With dragon princes around in special, helms are a lot less of a no-brainer choice, but still viable. Their advantage is there are more of them for your points, so if your army is looking a little small, they can bulk out the numbers and be tough at the same time. They really need a prince or commander to be a proper linebreaking unit though, and should be fielded en-masse

Suggested optimal field: 11 silver helms with full command+ 1 character(prince or commander). 2 ranks of 6

Elyrian Reavers: You don’t see these guys much, and I don’t think you’ll see them any more in the new edition, due to the insane amount of competition they now have to face and, of course, because the models are so old. Still, they’re a very viable supporting unit in an infantry heavy force. HE, more than ever will be scared of war machines like stone throwers and cannons which can mess up your lion chariots, dragons and elite infantry. Reavers are a quick and inexpensive fix to this, as there are plenty of other dangerous priority targets for your enemy to fire at so the reavers can get in there and do their job well. A small unit might just save your dragon from eating a lead bowling ball or your spearmen from eating crossbow bolts for six turns. If you’ve got a hundred points spare and a special slot free, consider the humble reavers.

Suggested optimal field: 6 reavers, bows, spears, standard.

Shadow warriors: Are an iffy proposition. With longbows and scout, I’d usually be about as inclined to put these boys within stabbing range as I would be to dance naked in a volcano during a meteor shower. But WS5 and hatred… well, that’s an incentive. Still, they only get one attack each, so you have to play your cards carefully. Enemy war machines and t3, unarmored missile troops would be good targets, line units or dwarf crossbows would not. As a counter-skimishing force shadow warriors are amazing, to go after targets like wardancers, skinks and ghouls is the name of the game as they can both outshoot and out combat just about anything they come up against (both, since they can move into charge range, shoot, let the enemy charge, stand and shoot then ASF to finish the pain) But at 16 points each they’re quite pricey. Still a better choice than archers though, and great in the hands of a smart player. But with the preponderance of hard troops and hard armies, and the threat of things like Pegasus knights, screamers and other nasties, they’re very vulnerable themselves .

Suggested optimal field: 12 shadow warriors.


Tiranoc chariot: With the advent of the lion chariot, tiranoc chariots are a little less of a valid choice, but nevertheless not bad. Their insanely fast movement and relative cheapness makes them great for attacking enemy missile troops, skirmishers and other supporting unit, but they lack the punch or durability to engage line units. Use them on your flanks and use them psychologically- position them so they could POTENTIALLY charge an opponent’s main blocks, even if you have no intention of doing so. A lot of opponents get overly paranoid of chariots and you can delay and muck up their advance just as well as any march block

Lion chariot: Hilariously nasty, the potential to put out 12 strength 5 attacks from a 50mm footprint is nothing to be sneezed at, and lion chariots are quite capable of hitting, and breaking, a depleted combat block by themselves, let alone the carnage if you pop some dragon princes in for the ride. The big worry these guys have is the fact that despite all that pain they’re still only t4 and 4 wounds with a moderate save. As with all of the tough, nasty chariots (chaos and beastmen ones for example) the trick to using them is to put them where they can hit- anything, anything at all- but where they cannot BE hit, because when that happens they melt like butter and you just lost yourself 140 points. Put them behind trees on your flank, or run them up the sides of the battle out of fire arcs. Any good opponent else will pick them off right at the start, with the most basic of fire. Once the enemy’s firebases have been weakened or occupied by your reavers, dragons or other counter-missile efforts, let the lions out to play.


Rare:
Great eagles: Now great eagles do one thing- exist as the cheapest unit in the army. No other unit in the HE lineup can be purched for a mere 50pts. They can do all the stuff they used to, but are now more or less redundant because a lot of other, more shiny stuff can do it as well. If you somehow have no dragons, reavers, or shadow warriors in your list, then eagles are still as good a choice as ever. Otherwise, there are better things to do their job now and HE will rarely have the luxury of spare points

RBT: As great as ever, and even a little bit more amusing due to the potential of ASF, nothing like killing a hero in a Pegasus before he can strike you with some lucky rolls… With so many other potent threats in your army now, the RBT will attract less attention than before, allowing it to do it’s lethal job better than ever!


Next up: fitting it all in, magic, strategy and unit combos

L192837465
30-10-2007, 21:25
this is rediculously detailed and will take me a bit to finish reading it! great stuff!

chivalrous
31-10-2007, 00:54
I'll ditto the above, this is quite an insight into the army book, however at first glance I have to pick you out on something.



Commander: the humble commander is now a must either toting a great weapon in a line unit of spears with some antimagic or as a BSB. With ASF and the potential to take a shield (meaning a 3+ save even without magic items) a BSB is a lot less vulnerable

Is there some special rule that allows High Elf BSB's to take a shield or is this an oversight?
Normally BSB's can't carry shields.


Spearmen: The rock solid core of the HE list, spearmen now take their place as one of the best core blocks around.
Now!?! ;) they were nasty before, now they're obscene :D

Entreri Bloodletter
31-10-2007, 06:02
Very nice analysis I like it alot. Pretty much everything seems in order and I agree with almost everything.

As for the BSB I've heard that he can indeed take a shield because apparently there isn't a clause in the new army book that prevents him from doing so. This may be a rumour but since the new HE BSB model has a shield in might be true.

SilverWarlock
31-10-2007, 12:43
Very nice analysis

a few comments:
-I really liked almost all your unit and character analysis, the only one I disagreed with is the dragon mage, this is a 150 point mage on a large target, with no save whatsoever, that means even a small unit of archers (light cav?) can demolish him. For the same price you can have 2 mages sitting cozily in units and an extra 10 archers/small unit.

-for the same reason, the archmage can be in trouble on a dragon, he can however get a 4+ ward or something and heal himself so he is less fragile.

-I am happy you pointed out swordmasters are overated, they really are, anyone with half a brain will not get into combat with them except with heavy cav. The white lions and Phoenix Guard seem much better as they can survive shooting.

-you overuse some magic items which makes your optimal choices impossible to field together, though that is fine, it may be worth finding alternatives to some of the items to build a list.

a few other ideas:

-Phoenix Guard: is there some cheap item to turn the champion into a tank? Given you are going up against ennemy elites and cavalry with this unit, the champion can declare challenges and possibly neutralise some attacks. Thats also frees up amulet of the flam for the other characters.

-Tyranoc chariots are probably more worthwhile than the lion one. As you pointed out chariots are there more for their potential than for actual killing (because they usually die anyways) so for a cheaper price you get a bigger threat range. The lion chariot really isnt much more than a tusgor/chaos chariot and though those are good tyranoc chariots are the second best in the game (first are goblins).

On a sidenote I believe a lot of horde armies may begin investing in spears, they have suddenly become useful.

Noldo
31-10-2007, 13:25
The problem of turninf Phoenix Guard champion into killer tank is that he is still just S3 A2 W1 model, although the 4+ ward do help a bit.

Few item suggestion that would fit into champions magic item allowance:

Foe Bane
Effect: Wound models with 2 or more wound on their profile always on 2+.
Target: Enemy combat heroes, especially ones that rely on high T for protection.
Drawback: no armor save modifier, so any combat hero worth his weight will probably still laugh at wounds.

Armor of Caledor
Effect: Nice 2+ Armor Save to go with your 4+ Ward Save. There are heroes that would envy such protection.
Target: Accept challenge and negate incoming attacks.
Drawback: There is only one suit of Armor of Caledor and characters could also fancy it (Dragon riding prince, any combat hero on foot or in chariot)

Enchanted Shield
Effect: 2+ Armor Save (Heavy Armor, Enchanted Shield, Hand Weapon & Shield Parry) to go with your 4+ Ward Save.
Target: Accept challenges and negate incoming attacks. Can be combinet with other cheap gear (like Amulet of Light)
Drawback: Do not assume that you would wound something with your 2 S2 attacks. Requires modelling.

There might be more, these are just based on rumours. I really should drop by in GW Store and give the book a througout look

I think that the power of Dragon Mage is definetly the additional Power Dice, especially with Silver Wand (I will probably never leave home without it). Best case scenario is to get Fireball (guaranteed) or Fireburst, Flaming Sword (guaranteed) and Burning Head. That way you can every round cast 2 spells (Magic Missile & Burning Head when out of combat, Flaming Sword and Burning Head once in combat). By using 4 dice (2 generated by Dragon Mage, 2 general or Banner of Sorcery) you 6 dice worth spells. If you really roll your spells lucklily, the Sword might actually be waste and just cast 3 damage spells each turn (1+1, 2+1 and 2+1 dice), using 5 dice (dragon mage, general and Banner) and get 8 dice worth casting. Yes, dragon mage costs pretty much same as archmage, but his output is also quite close to that, and that is without taking into account dragon (terror, rank denial).

However, the Dragon Mage will very rarely work as sole caster of the army. They can not generate overwhelming magic phase on their own, but it seems to me that they can generate need for dispel dice very effectively, giving second mage (with seer) or archmage more change with their big spells.

Isha
31-10-2007, 13:44
Veeeery nice analysis!!!! You do deserve my humble compliments, sir! :)

SilverWarlock
01-11-2007, 03:09
I wasnt saying the dragon mage wasnt good offensively ... just that he needs LOS and dies to a stiff breeze.

As for the phoenix guard I would go with the enchanted shield on the champion. Challenge and watch the ennemy waste attacks on the 2+/4+ while your normal phoenix guards (and warbanner) win combat (or worst case scenario set up a flanc charge for dragon princes or white lions).

Finnigan2004
01-11-2007, 03:22
Good post Therisnosaurus. One minor point about the lore of light spell Pha's illumination is that you can not cast it on your archmage because it only works on models with US 1-- it specifically rules out mounted models.

Deathraven
01-11-2007, 08:57
I agree with both sides of the Dragon Mage arguement. He is devastating but unfortunately easy to kill. Best way to protect him anyone?

Noldo
01-11-2007, 09:29
Cast 5+ Ward Save spell on the Dragon Mage? (Last for one turn, protects both mage and the dragon)

Try to advance behind terrain until you are out of the sight of small missiles (ie. other than war machines). If you happen to roll Firewall for the dragon mage, the missiletroops are already a premium target (wide frontage), taunting them to turn (and move) makes it just better (or keep your mage safe)

Only use Dragon Mage on armies that have sufficient fast units (Shadow Warriors, Reavers, Great Eagles) to take out war machines.

In the end, the dragon itself is still T6 with 5 wounds and a little scaly scin on the top, so it need the usual tricks to be taken out (cannons and runic bolt throwers being the most scary examples). If you are worried about missile fire (in the end some of them will also hit the mage), you can take 5+ Ward for the rider and still have points left for Silver Wand. However, since you still have to play hide and seek, those points could be used better elsewhere.

2thesword
01-11-2007, 09:50
Thanks for the overview therisnosaurus - I've been eagerly reading anything authoritative on the new HE book. I think that your unit & character analysis is excellent. I feel like I mostly know the book without even reading it:)

From your description/insight into the archers (and from your recommended unit setup) it sounds like archers still have the shoot in two ranks rule, but I thought that special rule was out of the book at the last minute (according to Harry the guru of gossip).

Can you confirm that the rule is out?

therisnosaurus
01-11-2007, 11:23
Yes, it is out, at least AFAIK. However, if you have one big unit of archers, then that one unit can usually find one hill to sit on (since they have no competition) and thus fire in two ranks. Problem solved :D. In the case of no hills, you could pop them in a building... no building, ah well, I guess you could always deploy in one rank and then reform (you CAN move and fire after all) if under threat. The wide frontage shouldn't be an issue if you put them on a flank, and their 30" range means that they should still be able to reach out and touch just about anything...

scarvet
02-11-2007, 15:12
How about making him ethereal if you aint fancy about the flaming sword?
However, I do think ASF +2 attack base + free dice + flaming sword+ dragon is what makes this guy worth the 2 hero slot.
Of course the dragon and mage will be aim by artillery, but I will say use the flying movement, terror and magic to keep them alive.
Additional note on the white lions: Their move though forest rule. Use tree to screen and gain cover while out flanking your enemy is rather effective; and then consider you can use 6 or 7 of them when the rest of the army eat up all the points.

therisnosaurus:Will you talk about the special character as well? since you did such a geat job.
However, I specially want to mention Korhil, with this guy, I can't think of any reason to include a prince (unless we use the Lv1 mage set up). He have 4(?) ASF WS7(?) S6 killing blow attacks, and the option to ride a lion chariot. Since HE have decent Ld, all you want the prince do is too kill. Being significantly cheaper and as killy, the only advantage on the price is wounds.

And of course, buildings! I was trying to draw up a list O doom when the book get in the store via black box. I was thinking white lions in wood with mages inside, then Korhil being the general; but I don't have any effective way against cavalry. With buildings, those elves will not give an inch to anyone and my mage can easily survive.

Ris
02-11-2007, 16:59
One tactic I was talking to a friend about today to counter the lack of damage output of a pheonix guard unit (though it will work with both white lion and swordmaster champions too) is to drop armour of caledor on the champion, and then cast bears anger on him

This transforms a keeper of the flame into something slightly more promising...
5 attacks at WS5, S5
Toughness increased to 4!
Always striking first
2+ armour save followed by a 4+ ward

mind you a bladelord with 6 WS6 S5 attacks...just sick!!

SilverWarlock
02-11-2007, 18:44
noone in their right mind will let that happen

the phoenix guard is however really good with just a 2+ save (and I would honestly do it with the enchanted shield and keep the armor of caledor for a character), a 2+/4+ can neutralise an ennemy character and the base troopers are hard enough they should win combat. They are also twice as solid as swordmasters versus shooting.

Where this logic can fall through is when you compare them to spearmen, who essentially rule when charged. Then again phoenix guard have less of a problem being flanked by light cav.

I sitll think the strongest high elf build will be with quite a bit of shooting, some decent magic and a bit of cav/chariots to counter attack. With some good blocks of spearmen defending 4 RBTs and some archers.

quick list (ballpark point estimations):

archmage, some kind of magic item selection 400

mage lvl 2, magic items 180

2xcombat hero, great weapon, maybe some cute cheap magic items (like the +1 to start and maybe the -1 to hit them) 180

2x21 spearmen, FC (add some funky banner to one maybe) 470

4 RBTs 400

about 400 points left for some elite units, have to include a banner of sorcery (I would go with 2 units of dragon princes, maybe some white lions) maybe add 10 archers or upgrade spearmen to seaguard if there are extra point.

The heroes sit in the spearmen and dare anything to charge. the magic and RBTs can out shoot even gunlines (dont move into 24 inches and most gunlines are useless, RBTs kill cannons first). The dragon princes just dare anyone to get near and the spearmen form an essentially unbreakable core head on.

Ris
02-11-2007, 19:38
For what its worth, a Keeper of the Flame cannot take the Enchanted Shield. The rulebook explicitly states to be able to take a magical shield you must be able to equip a mundane shield, which phoenix guard cannot.

Its the same rule that stops the average mage from taking magical armour, and the same rule that doesnt stop a prince/noble casting in armour if they take Radient Gem of Hoeth

Furthermore, if the champion is fighting with hand weapon and shield...the rest of the unit has to fight with hand weapons.

SilverWarlock
02-11-2007, 20:05
two good points, scrape the idea of the phoenix guard tank I guess :p

Ris
02-11-2007, 21:38
its still valid providing you dont need to give armour of caledor to a character :)
for example, mage heavy armies?

aenarion67
02-11-2007, 22:42
excellent overview thanks!

scarvet
03-11-2007, 01:47
Mmm...haven't you guys realize that you don't need a Mage lord for magic heavy?
With 3 hero mages, or Prince with gem of Hoeth and 3 mages, you having 3 lores and 8~10 with banner of sorcery and the power dice staff. Not to mention the extra spell or +1 to cast. You will want a seer staff to get nasty spell as well.
Sliverwarlock's suggestion is good as well, but an Mage lorad can't get to 400pts and he might not need Lv4 at all, because of banner of sorcery and you can't get more dice in your pool with more mage. Lv3 Lord with seer staff and some other goodies, a Lv2 mage with extra dice for himself plus banner of sorcery give you 9~11 dice for 3 chosen spell plus 2 other, and if you use high magic you can drain magic which can screw up all the single dice spells.
You also note that you can have a character that's ethereal and make magic weapon lost their magical property (can't remember if you can still get hit by a magic cannon ball, not rather annoying.)
Anyway, All of those option leave you enough slot and point to boost your CC/shooting power(never forget Reaver bow, 3 S5 BS5+ shot can stop any fast cavalry). Dragon Mage, as said by OP, is a powerful unit that can boost up you magic power and take care regiments by themselves.
For armour of caledor, if will be good if your character is mounted.
Additional note, the dragon armour and heavy armour option seem stupid, thoughts?

SilverWarlock
03-11-2007, 02:25
my point counts were very much ballpark, I was thinking of dark elf lvl 4s (and forgetting it is sitting on a 55 point peggy)

either way the point is to get a strong magic/shooting offense, while keeping a pair of strong combat characters (note I prefer 2 heroes to one prince) with simple great weapons (and maybe some unit/army boosting stuff). Stick the combat characters in spearmen, line them up wide with characters on corners if you might get flanked. Add in some dragon princes to threaten ennemy units and not allow them to set up the perfect charge.

the dragon mage to me is completely not worth it. 400 points in an army that is already expensive seems like a lot especially given the relative weakness of the model and the fact that he takes out the option of the nice cheap combat characters (you needs another mage at least with him, preferably an archmage, and if your magic defense is weak he will get blown straight off his dragon). Probably better off getting a lvl 2 safe in a unit and a unit of dragon princes, for less than his price they attack better and the mage is safe.

remember to always give your heroes that shield though ... the nice thing about using a great weapon is they can switch back to the hand weapon (which they cant do if they have a magic weapon). With a lion cloak thats a 2+ save I believe ... those characters probably come in something like 85 points before anything magical, a damn good bargain. Now add a reaver bow to one and whatever that gem is that allows him to cast to the other maybe (extra dispell is usefull in an army that loses 100 points to D6 S4 hits).

scarvet
03-11-2007, 02:57
Sadly no one but Khoril get an armour save in cc via lion cloak (I don't think they can have it either). As many love have been given to the spearmen, I really don't like the idea of using them as anchor for the HE; it will work if you go dragon prince heavy(ish), but I think smaller unit of lion will cause more trouble.
For dragon mage, it really down to personal preferences; you do stand correct about getting more elves and static combat res.
O, I think there is an item that give the bear and his unit magic resistance? perfect for any champion.

Crube
03-11-2007, 13:55
Fantastic and thorough overview there... thanks loads - will help as I go tmy book this morning....

therisnosaurus
06-11-2007, 09:29
Further stuff, we've done units, now for game phases. Only the first bunch, more tommorow:

Phase by phase analysis:

Pregame:
In skilled play this phase will actually be one of the most significant changes with the new list for several reasons. Firstly, ASF means HE do not have to worry about setting up charges with their line. They can safely place their units in a battle line and advance them to engage the enemy without having to maneuver for a charge. Smart generals will use this to maintain a coherent battle line that drags the enemy into it using shooting, pressure and enemy psychology (such as frenzy) to force enemy to charge the line. This allows HE players in the deployment phase to create a coherent line without huge regard for enemy deployments. Secondly, the increased lethality of HE cavalry and the potential of the lion chariot and dragon means that significantly smaller footprints generate significantly larger threats. This allows the HE player to create more effective exclusion zones in his deployment phase, forcing the enemy to place forces to engage or disrupt HE ambush or flankers. This increased taxation on the enemy’s deployment means mistakes are more likely to be made and able to be exploited by the HE player. Conversely, the HE player need focus less on his deployments in relation to the foe and focus more on observing his enemy’s placements and working their predicted movement into his battleplan.
Overall: Now a significant advantage over enemy armies, which can turn the battle used wisely. Don’t underestimate what you can do before the first dice are rolled…

Movement phase:
Potentially the greatest change, ASF makes a massive difference to the HE movement phase. The charge imperative is one of the greatest fundamentals of fantasy and to be able to usurp it gives the HE player a wealth of new options. I could write a small essay on that alone, but I don’t think I need to. Not having to throw yourself into danger and risk being flanked, maintaining a coherent line, forcing the enemy to break THEIR line, not having to maneuver to counter skirmishers or fast cav, not worrying about light cav stop-punch charging your heavy cav and so forth. However, this is coupled with a slight lessening in the overall speed we’ll see in high elf lists, with the loss of ithilmar barding, lion chariots probably being fielded over tiranocs and more substantial infantry contingents overall. This is slightly countered by no doubt larger amount of dragons that will be popping up, but not enough that the HE army will be overall more of a fast infantry list, supported by small elite mounted groups, than a cavalry list supported by a couple of infantry units. On the dragons, these deserve a strat of their own within the movement phase. A US5 terror causing flyer is a small army by itself and including one will make it the primary decider of your success. Much of this will be due to movement, and while this will be no different to previously, there are far more viable combinations and strategies with the new options available in the HE list.
Overall?: Much stronger, but will require some adaptation. Overall less fast and dynamic, but more reliable and less flimsy and breakable


Magic phase:
There’s been a lot of talk about the HE magic phase getting nerfed, I don’t think this is entirely the case. He magicians have gotten more expensive, slightly and their magic items have also gotten slightly more pricey (but often slightly better, like the ring of fury). However, to counter this, drain magic has improved significantly (I WANNA PLAY AN OGRE ARMY :D:D- all their one dice spells go from 3+ to 6+…) and high elves get, hands down, the best basic spell of any lore. A 5+ wardsave that isn’t RIP, guaranteed to get it and it’s only 5+ to cast… my god, it’s a wonder people aren’t crying in orgasmic ecstasy over it. The BIG problem with the new HE is they are more expensive and just as vulnerable, and what does the basic spell of the lore do but fix that something awful… Add to this that the lore no longer has a single dud spell- every single one in there is good in just about any situation. So you can’t run crappy seer council lists or channel all power dice into an archmage, but you never really needed to. Even a level 1 mage in a HE list can punch his weight. Take for example a single level 1 mage, jewel of the dusk and dispel scroll. 135 points gives you 2 spells on 2 dice which you’re likely to get off, 3 dispel dice with a +1 on the roll and a scroll. Not bad at all. Add to this a more reliable ring of fury and a cheaper, one hit ring of corin and you have a list that is still amazingly powerful at magic. The trick to remember is that HE magic should no longer be used as offensively. You don’t NEED to burn massive holes in the enemy, because your units can damn well handle them at full strength, so long as they themselves don’t get shot to pieces or magicked to death. THAT is what your mages should be used for… So, use your mages with drain magic and shield of saphery, which they are guaranteed to get. Keep the enemy magic down and make him waste those points while using seemingly inoffensive spells to keep your boys in the fight.
Overall: weaker offensively, admittedly, but this is made up for by the increased power of HE combat units IMHO and HE magic is even better defensively than it used to be.
Shooting phase:
While HE shooting units have improved slightly, it hasn’t been in the realms of firepower, and since they have so much more competition from elite combat units now, the shooting power of HE has definitely taken a spiritual hit. Previously, HE had to struggle to actually make a shooting group to significant damage to line enemy units and now that’s more or less not possible with reduced numbers and increased costs. Thus, HE shooting will probably be reduced to tactical damage causing- clipping ranks, hitting fast cav, counter battery fire against war machines and so forth. That all said, lothern seaguard have had a significant improvement- four points cheaper, and remain a nasty combat proposition, so a list specifically designed to utilize this could still be a relatively viable, if not very competitive force. The advantage of seaguard is you can take a small amount of shooting while not having to take a dedicated, vulnerable shooting unit. Since HE shooting will be tactical, the actual impact of that shooting need not be particularly significant- 1 model a turn is quite enough, so long as that one model takes a rank bonus off, reduces a flanking unit below US5, scares any large targets into staying outside 24”, stops wizards wandering outside of units or cover, etc. Bows are a psychological weapon, and extremely effective if used correctly, but they won’t do any more actual damage than they ever did before…
Overall: No increase to shooting power, increased points cost and more significant competition means that shooting will decline. Still powerful if used correctly however, and all HE should have at least a small shooting component.

Capt_Ithuriel
07-11-2007, 04:08
bravo! This is a most wonderful evaluation of the new book

keep up the good work and Ulthuan shall never fall.

therisnosaurus
08-11-2007, 00:35
Combat phase:
Obviously the biggest physical difference in terms of gameplay, ASF makes HE daunting at the very least psychologically to engage in combat. If that wasn’t enough, several high elf units have received significant combat prowess boosts (dragon princes, swordmasters, shadow warriors etc). In the last edition, good generals used cavalry to break enemy units, either frontally hammering weaker troops or combining to flank tougher ones. Now this is no longer nessecary, and the power of cavalry is waning slightly (while still the most powerful and cost efficient unit in the game, every army inevitably takes a good deal of anti heavy cavalry wargear and units, so they are usually easily countered). Since generals are inexperienced in taking on infantry units that can dish out the same level of pain as a heavy cavalry charge, whether they are on the attack or the defence, infantry heavy high elf armies will have an edge both in hitting power and in surprise. Tried and tested tactics will not work on against HE, so opponents will have to think on the run and, though it saddens me to say it, most warhammer generals build their armies with a plan in mind, and when that plan is foiled, they quickly capitulate psychologically. The High elf player must remember, however, that combat resolution is important, it is vital you win combats, even if only by 1 point with most units. You cannot afford to be taking break tests and risking your expensive units, even enemy elite troops are cheap compared to the average HE unit. You must also recognize that static CR for a high elf army is less important, the greatest advantage of ASF is not that you strike, but you can prevent your enemy striking. Killing a plague monk, witch elf or khorne warrior may net you a point of CR, but it will probably deny your enemy 2 or 3 from lost attacks. Thus, killing your foe BEFORE they have a chance to strike is the greatest boon you have, and should be utilized to the utmost- attack battle standard bearers or mages on a charging unit, knock out champions, kill front ranks and generally prevent your opponent from any opportunity of having a swing at you.
High elf generals who understand the various advantages of ASF will inevitably be extremely difficult to best by any but the most cluey of opposition, so I see HE becoming an extremely strong mid-range tournament army (rogue traders, gts and so forth) while losing power in the hands of rookies or facing tactical masters of the game
Overall: a lot stronger, both directly and indirectly. Exceptional power boost if used correctly, but I see many people being frustrated due to not getting ASF to work for them to its full extent.


Army concepts:

The citizen list:
Build an army around a mix of magic and combat characters (archmage, mage, BSB, commander for example). Take several largish blocks of spearmen as well as shadow warriors, reavers, 3-4 bolt throwers and tiranoc chariots. Use magic spells and items like sacred incense, amulet of light, shield of saphery and courage of anaerion to boost your line units and use your superior support units to eliminate enemy support. Pound enemy elite units with bolt throwers and hope to god your spears can hold them (which with the BSB and numbers they probably can)

Advantages: Impressive looking and large numbers, psychologically intimidating. Jack of all trades list that will do well against other balanced armies. Good list for beginners.

Disadvantages: tough to use against powerhouse armies like heavy cavalry or gunlines. Lots of models means big time investment and cost investment for a list that will have difficulty against blue ribbon lists.

The butcher’s bill:
Army built around maximizing slaughter of the enemy- archmage on dragon and dragon mage, dragon princes and swordmasters with archers backing them up. Offensive magic items like JoTD, Banner of sorcery, ring of fury etc. Idea Is to massacre as much of the enemy as possible as quickly as possible, combining dragon and cavalry charges to quickly remove big threats and then moving in smaller units of swordmasters to mop up while your weakened dragons sit back and cast spells or breathe on things. This would be a typical caledor list.

Advantages: hugely intimidating army that will frighten the life out of most generals. Devastating against armies lacking in shooting like undead or chaos, great opportunity to lavish detail on your small units and a great challenge for a cunning general.

Disadvantages: If you come up against an army that can outfight you or avoid your combat units you’re screwed. Severely. Granted, this is unlikely, but it can happen. Since the list will probably have MSU (3 prince units of 6-7, 3 swordmasters of 10-14 etc) individual units will have difficulty engaging elite enemies, so hitting them with both a dragon and a unit is essential, thus losing your dragons early is a recipe for disaster, and since they are toting mages, this is quite possible given mistaken placing or bad luck.

Ain’t going nowhere:
Prince and BSB combined with a mage or two. Units of lothern seaguard for troops mixed with phoenix guard and white lions as special. Big blocks of troops (25+ core, 18+ on elites). Couple of bolt throwers to frighten enemy monsters or discourage flankers. Idea is to use magic items like the sacred incense and spells like shield of saphery or howler wind to stop enemy shooting (not to mention excellent saves on your units). Allow the enemy to hit your line, hold them with your ridiculously stalwart troops and then grind them down. Not a very elvish tactic but I’m fairly sure it’ll work fine…

Advantages: Great if you love your elite infantry, even better if you don’t like seeing them die a lot. Strong competitive list as it can deal with enemies like bretonnians, lizardmen, skaven and other high end- tournament oriented lists. Great on tables where you have terrain to guard your flanks. Fun to annoy opponents with super-powerhouse units used to breaking through anything, coz they won’t get through this. This would be a typical phoenix guard or white lion themed list

Disadvantages: can be upset by numerous, hard hitting fear causing lists like undead cavalry. Also can be torn up by armies with a lot of warmachines as opposed to a lot of missile troops, though this can be compensated with an eagle or two. Difficult to make headway against points denial lists such as WE skirmish heavy or lizardmen skink hordes.

You can’t touch me, I’m an elf:
Dragon mounted prince and dragon mage (or two foot mages). Two minimum sized archer units. Eagles, reavers and shadow warriors make up the remainder of the list. Points denial is the name of the game. Your prince should have gear designed to ensure he and his naked budgie don’t go down, or even get half-wounded. Ever. Unless your enemy spends his entire strength all game trying to make it happen. Shadow warriors and reavers should evade enemy and shoot them, goading them and confusing them. Tackle enemy elite units by flank-or-rearing them with your dragon(s), pincushion weaker ones with shadow warriors (skirmishers get a lot more shots with a smaller footprint) and reavers. Near the end of the game, combo hit your enemies with shadow warriors and reavers, flank and rear to seal the deal (but only if you basically KNOW you can win it). Otherwise, just make him give up points without losing any yourself

Advantages: Fantastic for the cunning general, every model will pull its weight all game. Non-conventional playstyle and good for generals who can’t bear to see their lovely models get killed by the bucketload.

Disadvantages: Can be annoying to play against, and against generals with a lot of tough support units like chariots and other such units, their smaller units can take a heavy toll and unless your own heavy hitters pull above their weight you’ll have big problems

neo_ebrick
08-11-2007, 17:28
awsome rewiew i'd like you to take a look at my army idea and see what you think.

just made this list from memory just ball park figures, no access to my book for a week. let me know if you think it can hold its own.

teclis
noble,
barded steed, dragon armor,
enchanted shield, star lance

core
20 spearmen
10 archers

o0special
12 sword masters w/champ +standard
12 sword masters w/champ +standard
white lion chariot
5 dragon princes w/champ +banner of sorcery
amulet of light


rare
2 bolt throwers
2 Great eagles

i was tired of high Tough. armies rolling over high elves so i have lots Str 5
eagle and teclis are anti magic with RBT's helping kill as many mages as soon as possible. I know shooting will kill sw's easy so i have the chariot and DP'S with a hero. Let me know, thanks

therisnosaurus
08-11-2007, 22:27
I haven't had a look at teclis in detail yet, but it seems he's lost a few of the things that make him as nasty as he used to be (namely the re-roll everything and unlimited range dealies) Added to the fact he's pretty squishy and you really need a solid bodyguard for him. Since you only have one mage you can only keep a shield up on one of those swordmaster units, so I'd recommend switching one to a unit more resistant to shooting- either lions or guard (i'd be going guard if you think you can keep a courage of Anaerion on them most turns). I'd also drop the champion on the remaining swordmaster unit for another model. 1 extra attack is spit in the sea for them, and they need to be able to soak up a few more hits.

Since the princes and commander are going to be your 'risk unit' (the one tackling the hardest enemy troops) I'd recommend putting the banner of sorcery on your bodyguard unit for teclis and giving them the warbanner, to reduce the risk of loosing those valuable magic dice, and increase their chance of breaking the foe when they hit them.

Otherwise, solid list. Will need good tactical play to be really succesful, but it has a good chance!

Crazy Harborc
09-11-2007, 02:08
I am going to dig out my Dragon Princes, get 5 or 6 of them ready to trot out and whack some heads with their lances. Sadly, I do not have any of the HE axe carrying specials.

txamil
10-11-2007, 21:13
Even your citizen's army has well over a third of its points sunk in Characters.

HE troops aren't that expensive, the character driven armies the list tends to generate is what leads to the low troop count imo.

therisnosaurus
10-11-2007, 22:26
agreed, quite a few of the HE troops are quite resonable, spearmen reavers, bolt throwers, eagles and so. I think it's a mix of 1) characters, 2) elite infantry and 3) the fact that HE have quite a few viable single model units (dragons, lion chariots, bolt throwers) that keep the numbers down. When you look at it a lion chariot costs about as much as 15 spearmen, almost a full regiment...

Loki73
10-11-2007, 22:46
This has been a great read thanks!

txamil
11-11-2007, 09:26
Yeah it was a great overview, thanks.

Chris_Tzeentch
11-11-2007, 09:37
In a line unit, grab the blessed tome for a LD9 stubborn bunch o’crunchies who won’t go anywhere even if you hit them with a unit of fifty khorne knights.

Suggested optimal field: 14 white lions in two ranks of 8+6, full command with blessed tome and standard of arcane protection.


I cannot find the Blessed Tome anywhere in my new High Elf book. Can someone point me in the right direction please?

Tutore
11-11-2007, 12:05
Nice analysis, although I do not agree 100% with you. I still have to study the book more to throw in my analysis. I can only say that most things have gone better, some other worse.

Tutore
11-11-2007, 12:05
I cannot find the Blessed Tome anywhere in my new High Elf book. Can someone point me in the right direction please?

There is no more such a thing like a blessed tome.

therisnosaurus
12-11-2007, 04:03
yeah, I noticed this. there are a few things that have gone, the tome and amulet of purifying flame (as opposed to the amulet of fire or whatever) spring to mind. Annoying, the tome was one of the better magic items HE had

Faust
12-11-2007, 04:12
therisnosaurus, is the ring or corin down to a one use only ( one hit ) or have I misread your post about the ring of corin?

~Faust

Loki73
12-11-2007, 06:47
ROC is a bound spell level 3 one use in the new book. Which begs me to ask, does Vauls unmaking undo dwarven runes?