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Timk1111
30-10-2007, 10:41
Gday,

Having just come out of my first tournament, Im really keen to get my beasts into the tourny action - All help appreciated.

L - Beastlord - 329
Mark of Tzeentch, Rune of the True Beast, The Goretooth, Armour of Damnation, great weapon, shield

H - Bray Shaman - 126
Level 2, braystaff, Chaos Armour

C - 18x Beastherd - 131
Full command, 8x gor (2x HW), 10x ungor (spear)

C - 18x Beastherd - 128
Full command, 7x gor (2x HW), 11x ungor (spear)

C - 10x Beastherd
foerender

C - 10x Beastherd
foerender

C - 10x Beastherd
Musician

15x Bestigor - 235
-Mark of Chaos Undivided,Great weapon, Heavy armour, Full Command, War Banner

C - Tuskgor Chariot

C - Tuskgor Chariot

C - 5x Chaos Hounds

S - 4x Minotaurs - 224
Mark of Tzeentch, Champion, Great weapon

R - Chaos Giant

R - Chaos Giant

TOTAL - 1993

The basic tactic is to try and smash through the enemy at close combat, with some help from magic along the way. Herds deal with enemy infantry, smaller herds ambush into warmachines, giants mainly take care of cav, and the beast lord is tooled up to face Dragons and the like which is also where the Bestigors come in. With the MOCU, hopefully I can stand up to some terror causers. I hope i have something in this army to deal with almost anything.

Also, an ideas for expansion to 2250, 2500 and 3000 points?

regards, Tim

Kerill
30-10-2007, 10:59
That's an awful lot of herds to fit on the board and they will have trouble smashing through anything in close combat. Giants are very random, I would say you might need to swap one out for dragon ogres or minotaurs.

Also the goretooth means your general's unit has to pursue if your shaman takes beasts ther is no worry.

If you aren't going to take the staff of change I would suggest the staff of darkoth for your beastlord (yes its legal) great spell, lots of dice can be thrown at it, saves you points on the GW and can be used defensively for a 2+ save when you need it.

Timk1111
30-10-2007, 11:47
That's an awful lot of herds to fit on the board and they will have trouble smashing through anything in close combat. Giants are very random, I would say you might need to swap one out for dragon ogres or minotaurs.

Also the goretooth means your general's unit has to pursue if your shaman takes beasts ther is no worry.

If you aren't going to take the staff of change I would suggest the staff of darkoth for your beastlord (yes its legal) great spell, lots of dice can be thrown at it, saves you points on the GW and can be used defensively for a 2+ save when you need it.

The smaller herds will usually be ambushing, but 10 really isnt very big, they'll fit. They also are very strong against infantry, due to high volume of attacks. Theres definatley things they can smash through, and ive had a lot of success with them.

Giants may be random, but they are also stubborn, and this is where there main strength lies. If they can soak up a few lance attacks, once te enemies strength is back normal, the giant should be pounding them to hell. I love dragon ogres, but just too expensive for my lists. Just dunno if i can fit it.

Hmmm, i didnt realise that with the goretooth. Shouldnt matter, i usually pursue all of my foes anyway. What it also does, tho, is allow my general to pursue 3d6 inches if he joins the minotaur unit. Plus Bears anger and Hatred is just too juicy for not to take (7 attacks at s7? re-rolling hits from hatred? Bring it on!)

Staff of darkoth is a very good idea tho. Can give my units a MASSIVE charge range, really. Maybe I can try to fit it on the Bray???

Thanks for the comments, dude. Some things to think about....

Tim

Kerill
30-10-2007, 15:04
No problem, you should post on the herdstone for sounder advice than mine as well:

http://z2.invisionfree.com/herdstone/index.php?act=SC&c=3

ForHire
30-10-2007, 16:00
I've been playing Beasts in tournaments here in Canada for a while so I'll give you some of my thoughts on your list and how things might go for you.

First off, I run a Khazrak army, with 2 Shaman, and Khaz ambushing in a large herd, 2 10 dog units, a 10 beast herd, a 15 Bestigor unit w/ Banner of Wrath, 4 Chosen Khorne knights, 3 Minotaurs with GW, and 2 Giants. I'm a firm believer in Beast herds but they have serious drawbacks. Save the points for the foerender on your ambushing herds. 3 is good, you'll probably get 1 where you want it, but you'll probably get it there on lower than a 6. I'm going to be changing to 2 units of 10 with a musician because they always end up running from something. I'd rather have the 7 Ld when rallying for 20 points less than the 7 to come on the board. You're basically saving enough points for another 5 dog unit.

Also, my Khazrak herd manages to smash through enemy infantry, my 10 man herd does not. They may seem tough but in my experience they tend to face resistance even against weapon crews. I don't think my 10 man crew hunters have ever managed to break a unit in the first round. Remember, most crews will have 3 men, meaning you will only rank up 4 wide. No rank bonus. In fact, since they can't charge when they show up your opponent tends to prepare for them. Now, I was ambushing with 1 with no Foerender, you'll be showing up with three...things might go better for you.

Most armies I've faced in tournaments are usually ready for magic. You've got 9 dice so you should be okay. What lore do you plan on using for your Shaman? I agree with the Goretooth suggestion, I don't like it. Last tournament I was in I finally gave up on Frenzy. My O&G opponent lured my knights into charging his night goblins with a lucky animosity roll. Next thing I know my knights charge in and quickly dissolve into a pink mist as fanatics ripped through them. Having a single char like that, especially your lvl 4 mage, that vulnerable would seem to me to be a bad plan.

2 Chaos giants are amazing. Run them as a pair. My games tend to go one of two ways. If Khazrak does his job I massacre my opponent easily. If Khazrak goes down the game falls on the shoulders of my giants. When you have them both in the same combat you reduce the risk of the pick up and... result. My giants have broken grail knights, Rhinox riders, you name it. These guys have won me many games when the rest of the army has run off and abandoned them.

Your minotaur unit looks good but drop the Bloodkine. You've already got 3 attacks per minotaur with GWs. The extra attack isn't worth the 20 points, and now you're exposed to challenges. My unit of 3 typically does what is needed. They flank, they kill things, and usually manage to keep the Bestigors alive. You might find 4 to be difficult to maneuver and the Bloodkine is definately not necessary. Drop him and the two Foerenders and now you can add 2 units of dogs or even another beast herd.

Last question...what is your logic behind 18 man beast herds as your main force? Most infantry units I've faced are at least 20 strong. So, you're already giving up 2 CR because of the lack of a 3rd rank and now you'll be outnumbered. You might have a great reason, but I would suggest at least adding more ungors until you're above 20. My suggestion would be to drop the Bloodkine and one of the minotaurs,and keep one of the foerenders and exchange the other for a musician. This should free up enough points to bulk these units up to at least 25+.

Goat T
30-10-2007, 17:01
You have an interesting list. i understand the herds with 18 models are to add a character in each, making 19.

With so many herds, and only 1 unit of minotaurs, you will be relying on finesse to beat your opponents

You wil have a lot of problems with Dwarfs as they will shot the giants to ribbons quickly, and you don't have enough punch to break there blocks.

Ambushers are great in theory, but they encounter a few problems. Firstly, you can't charge with them until the 3rd turn, and only moving 5" from the edge with a LD7 means its relatively easy to panic them and have them flee right back off it. Also remember if they hit in the flank or rear, you get the flank or rear bonus, but the opponent still keeps his rank bonuses. Hounds might work better for ambushing. Just ambush 6-10 units, and you should get some showing up in the right spot. as for the numbers in the units. More than 19 isn't really worthwhile. 17 or 19 is optimum.

You probably also know that you can rank up to a minimum of 4 wide, but need a min of 5 wide for ranks, so small models, chariots, and individual characters will bring them down. Don't rely on the herds as 7th ed really hurt their effectiveness.

I never leave home without 2 units of 3 minotaurs. You need the high strength and multi attacks to take out knights. Also they work great against Giants, as they have a high initative. I assume you are placing those Minotaurs in the middle of your ranks. If you are thinking about putting them on the flank, cut it to 3 models, as wheeling 4 models takes a lot of movement to do.

You took Tzeentch, but only have 9 dice and 2 casters. That's going to be a bit difficult to get your spells off, unless you take the staff of change. Also you only have 5 dispel dice with no dispel scrolls or re-rolls. (IMO the best part of the staff of change). Your going to be a bit weak in the magic phase.

I love giants. I can't fit them in my list, but I always wish i could.

if you can, you might want to take another unit of hounds. for 30points, they are cheap, but unlike herds, they negate ranks. Also because they are pathetic, either your opponent wastes shooting at them, or he ignores them, and they can capture table corners.

Timk1111
30-10-2007, 22:56
Wow, thanks for the feedback guys.

Forhire, hatred does mean that i must charge at the enemy, only i must pursue, so he cant get charge baited. After Bear anger, this guys got 7 s7 attacks, re-rolling to hit, and becomes toughness 5. Isnt that just cool?

I love the staff of change, but i wanted my beastlord to become a Dragon slayer. Ill be hard pressed to do that with the staff, being so expensive, and so dragons will really threaten me. There were quite a few at my last tournament.

Herds with a foe render shouldnt bounce off crew. The render is s4, and the unit outnumbers. This should see them winning combat. Against dwarfs, id even wait until the enemies machines were dead before I expose the giants, or use terrain as cover, all depends...

So, I think Ill drop the Bloodkine, one Foerender from the small units, and get 5 more chaos hounds. Ill put all 3 units of 10 beastherds in ambush, as well as the 2 units of Hounds. Even if they all fail, the scatterdice should still see a 1-2 units behind enemy line i reckon.

Thanks again, tim

Timk1111
31-10-2007, 00:27
Ok, heres my slightly re-done list.

L - Beastlord - 329
Mark of Tzeentch, Rune of the True Beast, The Goretooth, Armour of Damnation, great weapon, shield

H - Bray Shaman - 126
Level 2, braystaff, Chaos Armour

C - 19x Beastherd - 138
Full command, 9x gor (2x HW), 10x ungor (spear)

C - 19x Beastherd - 138
Full command, 9x gor (2x HW), 10x ungor (spear)

C - 10x Beastherd
5x Gors(2x HW), 5x Ungors(spears),foerender

C - 10x Beastherd


C - 10x Beastherd
5x Gors(2x HW), 5x Ungors(spears)

15x Bestigor - 235
-Mark of Chaos Undivided,Great weapon, Heavy armour, Full Command, War Banner

C - Tuskgor Chariot

C - Tuskgor Chariot

C - 5x Chaos Hounds

C - 5x Chaos Hounds

S - 4x Minotaurs - 204
Mark of Tzeentch, Great weapon

R - Chaos Giant

R - Chaos Giant

TOTAL - 1995

MarcoPollo
31-10-2007, 19:06
Your set up is not too bad. Although your lord is a sure-thing dragon/monster slayer, you are not balancing yourself properly with him. In tournaments, you will not see alot of Big point monsters. They are not point effective (cannon balls) and so something like the RoTB may be great against them, it will be non-existent for others. You can still get good value with other items and achieve more of a balanced threat. For instance:

Beastlord of change: AoD, Staff of Darkoth, Gaze of the gods. This is 85 pts of magic items that makes your beastlord much more versatile. He can still protect himself well in a challenge battle against a dragon. He can have 2+ armor save, 4+ ward save and re-roll hits (simillar to an aditional 4+ or 5+ wardsave). What you'll find more often is that you are pitted against a nasty character on foot or horse that is designed for max troop killing and CR generation. The rune of the true beast is useless with this situation.

Also, the staff of darkoth is better than the goretooth on a lord. The goretooth works better on the shaman instead. Here's why.

Casting cost. The lord can use up to 5 power dice to cast his magic. At power level 9 the only thing that can stop it is a miscast or an opponents dispell scroll. But at level 2 he may not even be able to cast it with 3 dice. It is more of a gamble at that amount.

Also, goretooth is a Remains in play spell, so if you want to use your lord to have the spell on, then you are wasting the rest of his spells (if you want to keep it RiP). And since 2 of the tzeetch spells are also RiP, you are setting yourself up for inefficient use of spells.

On a regular level 2 shaman, he is still a combat monster but you won't loose alot of casting ability if you want to keep him RiP.

What I am seeing in your thoughts on the list is a desire to beat a specific (dragon) opponent. Although this type of thinking has led you to create a list that can specifically deal with this one type of threat, it does not give you propper balance for tourney play.

As for special characters in your army, it depends. Usually you will loose marks for composition if you use a special character. And sometimes your tourney will not even allow them in the first place. I wound up playing against "For Hire" at the last tourney I went to and they didn't allow him to use special characters so he was a little screwed. He made up for it by being an extremely good sport though.

Timk1111
01-11-2007, 23:50
Gday,

Marcopolo, you're right. The main reason i used RofTB, is because nearly half my tourny opponents HAD dragons in them. Youre setup is MUCH better, However, im now going for more of dominatoin in the magic phase:

The list has changed a little bit, now. More characters, more dipell power, furies, and some magic item changes. Heres the list that gears more towards magic:

L - Beastlord - 345
Mark of Tzeentch, Staff of Change, Armour of Damnation, great weapon, shield

H - Wargor - 185
Mark of Tzeentch, Staff of Darkoth, Dispel Scroll, Heavy armour

H - Bray Shaman - 145 (usually lore of shaddow or death)
Braystaff, Dispel Scroll, Chaos Armour

C - 16x Beastherd - 123
Full command, 8x gor (2x HW), 8x ungor (spear)

C - 16x Beastherd - 123
Full command, 8x gor (2x HW), 8x ungor (spear)

C - 10x Beastherd
5x Gors(2x HW), 5x Ungors(spears),foerender

C - 10x Beastherd
5x Gors(2x HW), 5x Ungors(spears)

12x Bestigor - 224
-Mark of Chaos Undivided,Great weapon, Heavy armour, Full Command, Banner of Wrath

C - Tuskgor Chariot

C - Tuskgor Chariot

C - 5x Chaos Hounds

C - 5x Chaos Hounds

S - 5x Furies

S - 4x Minotaurs - 204
Mark of Tzeentch, Great weapon

R - Chaos Giant

TOTAL - 2000

So, i guess, which list does Warseer prefer?

Regards, Tim

MarcoPollo
02-11-2007, 05:13
Gaze of the gods is statistically better than AoD for almost all situations that lords find themselves in. It is only marginal, but better nonetheless.

Against random troops AoD is slightly better, but random troops rarely will attack a lord character, especially if the fight is close. They will need to score wounds against normal troops. AoD is only worth a 5+ wardsave against opponents with w/s 7 or greater. Usually most uber fighty lords are w/s 7 or more. These are the opponents that your lord will be taking combat damage from usually. Also, ward saves are more versatile than re-roll to hit. Everything else is about equal. And you can still purchase heavy armor and shield if you wish.

Timk1111
02-11-2007, 08:01
Yes, but with 6 spells from the lore of tzeentch, I have a good chance at a 5+ ward save as well as AoD, as well as a 2+ armour save.

If it deosnt work out, its something i can change later.

Tim