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Tomb king13
30-10-2007, 14:25
I am asking you this question because they confuse me. Two days ago, I played Tomb Kings Vs Dwarfs. The other person played the Anvil with the Thorek. And he was hitting me with the “Rune of wrath and ruin”. But when a unit hit by this Rune if it is flyer it can’t fly until of its next movement phase also the other units like infantry have half movement.
He hit my TGs with the Rune. In the movement, I moved my TGs with half move and then in the magic phase I cast the Incantation to move TGs again. He rolls to dispel it but he misses it and I declare charge. I could make the charge because he was 6’’ away from my TGs but he said I could not charge him because the TGs had to move with half movement. That meant they could charge only 4’’. But the spell says: …The unit can immediately make its normal move exactly like in the movement phase. (Wheel, turn etc) The unit can charge an enemy and the same rules apply for a normal charge…
:confused:Do I treat this movement like an other movement phase, so that means that it is as if I am playing my next movement phase?

Crube
30-10-2007, 14:28
What's the wording on the rune... If it says the effects last until the next turn, then I would say you move at half rate...

explorator
30-10-2007, 14:35
The wording indicates that the effects last 'until the end of its own following turn'. Yes it is powerful when you consider that it doesn't even need to do any wounds in order to halve movement.

Atrahasis
30-10-2007, 14:49
It should prbably be noted that GW have indicated that Thorek's reroll ability is going to be "corrected" (ie changed) to once per game rather than once per turn.

EvC
30-10-2007, 16:20
In the GT FAQ they said it's already been corrected! Which I don't think it has.

Isn't there a rule in there somewhere saying that magical effects such as movement override any other effects that might otherwise slow down a unit? Or does it only refer to spells themselves?

DeathlessDraich
30-10-2007, 18:56
but he said I could not charge him because the TGs had to move with half movement. That meant they could charge only 4’’. Do I treat this movement like an other movement phase, so that means that it is as if I am playing my next movement phase?

1) Wrath and Ruin halves the "Movement characteristic" of the targeted unit.

2) Incantation of urgency allows the affected unit to make a "normal move exactly like in the Movement phase"

There are now valid arguments for both you and your friend, depending on how you choose to interpret A)'normal move' and B) 'Movement phase':

You:
a) A 'normal' move could be interpreted as normal in every respect i.e. an *unmodified move*. Wrath and Ruin has modified the movement of the targeted unit. Therefore the Urgency Incantation uses the 'normal' or unmodified movement characteristic. (I think this is what EvC is hinting at?)
b) The Movement phase is not the target's previous Movement phase but the next or past *normal* Movement phases.

Your Dwarven opponent:
a) A 'normal' move means the *mechanism of movement* is the same as normal - march, turn or charge as *normal* - ("it can wheel, turn, etc" is present in the Tomb King's rules.
b) The Movement phase is the target's (immediately) previous Movement phase.

I think most players, like myself, will favour your opponent's interpretation unfortunately.

DeathlessDraich
30-10-2007, 19:16
Extending the original question:

If Wrath and Ruin targets a unit and then Steed of Shadows is cast on a character in the unit, then a dice roll is needed. Either the character can fly or the unit’s movement characteristic is halved but not both.
The same procedure is needed for items which enable characters to fly e.g. Cloak of Dunes, Cloak of feathers
and with units containing characters that move faster than RnF e.g. Wolf form, Jaguar warrior.

Comments? Anyone disagrees? There might already be an FAQ on this - I haven't checked.

T10
30-10-2007, 22:12
The RoWR! (agressive!) has a separate effect on fliers and non-fliers. Fliers are not affected beyond the inability to fly in their next movement phase. Whether the effects on flee rolls affect both is unclear, but it seems reasonable to assume that it is in fact related to the non-fliers as they have ther Movement characteristic halved.

However, casual fliers like characters carried by the Steed of Shadows or frequent fliers like Chaos Furies that are moved with the Unseen Lurker take advantage of this during the Magic phase. This is not so much exempt from the effect as not covered by it.

As written, a unit hit by the ROWR! can fly unhindered in the magic phase. If they chose not to fly (or cannot!), then a unit of fliers move at their normal movement in the magic phase while non-fliers move using half their movement characteristic.

-T10

DeathlessDraich
31-10-2007, 13:11
Checked Wrath and Ruin to confirm that you are right - Steed of Shadows will affect the character normally after the unit it is with is hit by Wrath and Ruin.

However, if Wrath and Ruin targets a unit which has a character that can fly (e.g. Cloak of Dunes, Cloak of feathers) or is faster than the rank and file models (e.g. Charm of the Jaguar, Wolf form), then either the character can fly (or move faster) or the unit’s movement characteristic is halved but not both, if the character chooses to charge out or leave the unit?

The rules do not seem to cover this but I've used the same method of resolution as RIP spells (even though this is not magic).

Your opinion?

T10
31-10-2007, 13:41
Well, a flying character would be treted as a member of the unit, so they all would be considered a unit of non-fliers.

-T10

DeathlessDraich
01-11-2007, 10:17
Yes, your solution is better than mine.

a) For Cloak of dunes/feathers or a flying character, the unit is not a unit of flyers. Therefore the character can fly as he wishes.

b) The same explanation can be used for a character that is faster than the rank and file models (e.g. Charm of the Jaguar, Wolf form, cavalry model). Since the unit moves at the speed of the slowest model, therefore the M characteristic of the slowest model is halved. The fast moving character is unaffected when he charges out or leaves the unit.

Festus
01-11-2007, 10:41
b) The same explanation can be used for a character that is faster than the rank and file models (e.g. Charm of the Jaguar, Wolf form, cavalry model). Since the unit moves at the speed of the slowest model, therefore the M characteristic of the slowest model is halved. The fast moving character is unaffected when he charges out or leaves the unit.
No, it cannot. The character will be affected, as he is a member of the unit, and thus his M is halved as well.

No wriggling out of this one, I am afraid, just because his M is not used while in the unit...

Festus

DeathlessDraich
01-11-2007, 11:22
Yes, the character will move at the same speed as the unit he is *with*.

I was addressing what happens if he *leaves* the unit. Wrath and Ruin rules do not cover this.

Originally, my solution was either the character or the unit is affected but not both:
If both are affected, there will now be *2 units* affected by the halved M characteristic caused by Wrath and Ruin when only *one unit was targeted*.

What if Wrath and Ruin destroyed all the RnF models of unit with 3 or 4 characters? The characters are now separate and very *different* units from the originally targeted unit? **

[**Comparing this with Psychology mismatches between character and RnF models e.g. Stupidity susceptible unit joined by a non Stupidity susceptible character - the character is treated differently when he is on his own than when he is with the unit.]

The Wrath and Ruin rules states that the *targeted unit's* M characteristic is halved. The character/s that leave a unit are no longer part of the unit it was with.
Can the character/s still be regarded as the targeted unit?

I feel an extension to the 'flyers variation' suggested by T10, should be made for reasons of consistency - the M characteristic is halved only in the original unit and, not units (characters) that leave it or units formed after the original unit is 'destroyed'.

sulla
01-11-2007, 18:35
It should prbably be noted that GW have indicated that Thorek's reroll ability is going to be "corrected" (ie changed) to once per game rather than once per turn.

Interesting. Any idea how they plan to achieve this "correction"?

Atrahasis
01-11-2007, 18:36
Interesting. Any idea how they plan to achieve this "correction"?

Through the official Dwarf FAQ/errata when it finally arrives I'd imagine.

Either that or they'll just start printing the Dwarf book with the change included and not tell anyone :P

sulla
03-11-2007, 05:00
Through the official Dwarf FAQ/errata when it finally arrives I'd imagine.

Either that or they'll just start printing the Dwarf book with the change included and not tell anyone :P

:evilgrin: That's what i was imagining... Codex Chaos Space marines all over again...

"I'll blast your obliterators with my lascannon... you're wounded; Autokill!"

"But they are T5?!?

"Haven't you got the new book? They are T4(5)."

"This is the new book.

"Oh, they made a reprint of this book and ammended a lot of it... about 6 months ago."

"6 months? But I only bought this from GW about a month ago.:cries::mad::wtf:"