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Gensuke626
31-10-2007, 03:33
Ok, I managed to get my hands on an old copy of GW #2 and thus, the Ork Gang. Being a greenskin loving Ork minded player I decided I wanted to play this gang...but I realized after reading it through a couple of times, that it's too powerful. Subtly too powerful, but too powerful none the less.

Is there anyone here who remembers the old gang and has advice to revise them to bring them more inline with a playable gang.

A couple of fixes off the top of my head include a 4+ save vs pinning to replace the total immunity to pinning and a +10 cred increase across the board for the value of Orks (Thus making starting gangs smaller and making their Gang Ratings higher as the gangs grow.)

Daredhnu
31-10-2007, 22:08
i actually find it extremely anoying that those rules aren't online i have all gang wars you see except for #2 :mad:

anyway allow all orks to test to escape pinning even without anybody close by like gang leaders and spyrers but keep it a normal pinning test.
that should probably work.


other than that i can't help you offcourse.:(

Eazy-O
01-11-2007, 00:27
An Ork player in my campaign settled for using Goliath rules, since we couldn't get our hands on any other. Um... Yeah. I have no idea what the Ork rules look like. *shrug*

Gensuke626
01-11-2007, 00:41
i actually find it extremely anoying that those rules aren't online i have all gang wars you see except for #2 :mad:

anyway allow all orks to test to escape pinning even without anybody close by like gang leaders and spyrers but keep it a normal pinning test.
that should probably work.


other than that i can't help you offcourse.:(

I've considered that, but the problem with Orks is that they're I2, so even if they're supported, the chances of escaping pinning are pretty low. That's why I was going to give them a flat 4+ save, and allow them to escape if there's another boy nearby.

Dyrnwyn
01-11-2007, 08:27
I've considered that, but the problem with Orks is that they're I2, so even if they're supported, the chances of escaping pinning are pretty low. That's why I was going to give them a flat 4+ save, and allow them to escape if there's another boy nearby.

I'm not sure what the Ork gang rules look like, but do they account for mob size? You could give them a save to avoid pinning based on the number of Orks within a certain distance (2" or 4") to represent mob rules.

ash_wednesday
01-11-2007, 21:04
If you can't find the ork rules for necromunda, try using the ork rules for Gorkamorka. Actually, why not use them in the Ash Wastelands. That would be cool.

Daredhnu
01-11-2007, 21:18
where can i find the rules for gorkamorka?

also something i always wanted to try seemed pretty cool to me but i had no funds and nobody else wanted to play it either so poor me :cries:

ash_wednesday
01-11-2007, 21:25
Your best bet is to look for it on Ebay. Also try 2nd hand book stores or other hobby shops. My father was able to find the rules for the game.

Tomothy
02-11-2007, 01:53
Ok, I managed to get my hands on an old copy of GW #2 and thus, the Ork Gang. Being a greenskin loving Ork minded player I decided I wanted to play this gang...but I realized after reading it through a couple of times, that it's too powerful. Subtly too powerful, but too powerful none the less.

Is there anyone here who remembers the old gang and has advice to revise them to bring them more inline with a playable gang.

A couple of fixes off the top of my head include a 4+ save vs pinning to replace the total immunity to pinning and a +10 cred increase across the board for the value of Orks (Thus making starting gangs smaller and making their Gang Ratings higher as the gangs grow.)

One option I'll chuck out at the beginning, instead of price increases drop the BS of all the orks by 1. Not the gretchin though.

The leader should increase by 15 credits at least. If you drop BS you still need to increase cost by 5.

I'm not sure why they should be the only outlander gang to get heavies. I'd probably drop them to only allowed special weapons and increase the cost by 5. If he keeps heavy weapons increase cost by another 5-10.

Increase the cost of the normal orks by 10.

As for your new pinning rule, that seems okay. One option i thought of was to let them test immediately to avoid pinning. Then, at the start of their turn, if there's a friend within 2" they would get to test again.

I don't understand why they have the teef thing as well as foraging. It should be one or the other.

Limiting the trading also limits the gang growth, i would let you send one ork disguised as a mutant to the trading post, but on a 4+ (6+ if its your leader) he gets caught and killed.

As to weapons, got a few suggestions. Give them all a free club instead of free knife. Drop the power axe and the sword/axe. Add massive weapons, flails, clubs/mauls.

Drop plasma pistol and plasma gun and all the heavy weapons except the custom shoota. Put that on special but add the move or fire (needs to cause its no longer heavy).

Gensuke626
02-11-2007, 03:49
On the one hand, I appreciate your help...but on the other, some of your suggestions just make no sense to me.

One option I'll chuck out at the beginning, instead of price increases drop the BS of all the orks by 1. Not the gretchin though.
Dropping the BS by one brings them partially in line with 3rd ed 40k Orks...but we're dealing with 2nd ed Orks. The stats are the same, so I don't think dropping the BS is the way to go, especially in Necromunda where guns are the king.


The leader should increase by 15 credits at least. If you drop BS you still need to increase cost by 5.

I'm not sure why they should be the only outlander gang to get heavies. I'd probably drop them to only allowed special weapons and increase the cost by 5. If he keeps heavy weapons increase cost by another 5-10.

I don't see the Eavee as being the same thing as a Heavy. Depeneding on what my tablemates agree on, I'd say they're not a Heavy and thus they can't get Heavy only skills or work an auto-repairer. But depending on my group, maybe they can.

I really see Eavees as being the same as a Deacon, Scaly, or a Totem Warrior.


Increase the cost of the normal orks by 10.

I thought you said to not increase the cost?


As for your new pinning rule, that seems okay. One option i thought of was to let them test immediately to avoid pinning. Then, at the start of their turn, if there's a friend within 2" they would get to test again.
Allowing orks to immediately test to break pinning has it's own faults to it, mostly in the fact that boyz have I 2. Even with immediate testing, the likelyhood of Orks escaping pinning is slim.


I don't understand why they have the teef thing as well as foraging. It should be one or the other.

I honestly like the rule. I think that it's characterful and it limits the growth somewhat in an interesting way. It also somewhat solves the problem of...

Limiting the trading also limits the gang growth, i would let you send one ork disguised as a mutant to the trading post, but on a 4+ (6+ if its your leader) he gets caught and killed.

Cause, then I don't really need to trade. I'm limited to the equipment on my gang's list, but when I recruit new boyz, I can have them come in hauling equipment upgrades. I think it's novel.


As to weapons, got a few suggestions. Give them all a free club instead of free knife. Drop the power axe and the sword/axe. Add massive weapons, flails, clubs/mauls.

Massive weapons sounds like a good deal, but dropping the Axe sounds kind of silly. I rule that Axes have the same rules as Clubs and mauls anyway, so there's no real reason for me to change it. Flails and chains might be something I should add. And I agree on dropping the Power Axe, but I think it should go to a rare roll sort of deal. New boyz being recruited can buy a Power Axe on a d6 roll of 6 and it costs 40+3d6. Just a thought.

Drop plasma pistol and plasma gun and all the heavy weapons except the custom shoota. Put that on special but add the move or fire (needs to cause its no longer heavy).

Ok. This last one makes no sense from a Fluff and from a Balance point of view. Fluff wise, Orks love the Dakka and to deny them the Dakka seems silly in the utmost. Plus I've playtested the Kustom Kombi Weapon. If that's the only support weapon available to Orks, you're really curtailing their ability to shoot...though since you seem to want to gut their BS, maybe that's what you want.

Ok, so heres the Changes I'm looking at so far:

Mob Rule : Ork morale is directly linked to the number of Boyz around them at any given time. Orks may always test to recover from pinning at the start of a turn, but they add +1 to their I for every other Ork (not Gretchin) within 4". This bonus is applied even if the nearby Orks are pinned themselves, as most boyz would rather die than let their mates get to the fight first. Downed Orkz are not counted. This replaces the Total Immunity to pinning.

Weapons List - The revised weapon list is partly inspired by Gorkamorka
Hand to hand -
Knife / Knuckle Dusters - First Free / 5
Choppa - 10 - Generic Term for Clubs/Axes, ect.
'Uge Choppa - 10 - Generic Term for Massive Weapons
Chainz - 10

Pistols -
Slugga - 15 - Autopistol
Six Shoota - 15 - Stubgun with Dum-Dums. Can not be bought without Dum-Dums

Basic -
Shoota - 20 - Autogun
Kannon - 20 - Shotgun
Bolter - 35

Special -
Kustom Mega Blasta - 70 - Plasma Gun
Skorcha - 40 - Flamer

Heavy -
'Eavy Shoota - 120 - Heavy Stubber
Rokkit Launcha - 180 - Grenade Launcher with Krak Grenades. Can not use Frags.
Kustom Kombi Weapon - 250

Runtz -
Shoota - 20 - Autogun
Blunderbuss - 8

Kaptain Only-
Chainsword - 25
Bolt Pistol - 20
Plasma Pistol - 25

Kaptains have access to Hand to Hand, Pistols, Basic, Special, and Kaptain Only.
Boyz have access to Hand to Hand, Pistols, and Basic
Eavees have access to Hand to Hand, Pistols, Special, and Heavy
Gretchin have access to Pistols and Runtz

Other changes I'm also considering:
Adding in Gorkamorka yoofs
Starting boyz at 20+D6 Exp
Changing "Eavees" to "Mekz"

Tomothy
02-11-2007, 05:21
Dropping the BS by one brings them partially in line with 3rd ed 40k Orks...but we're dealing with 2nd ed Orks. The stats are the same, so I don't think dropping the BS is the way to go, especially in Necromunda where guns are the king.
I thought you might say that. Had to see where you stand. You'd still have BS 3 gretchin for shooting and my BS 2 juves with pistols often provide nasty shooting capabilities. Anyway, up to you.


I don't see the Eavee as being the same thing as a Heavy. Depeneding on what my tablemates agree on, I'd say they're not a Heavy and thus they can't get Heavy only skills or work an auto-repairer. But depending on my group, maybe they can.

I really see Eavees as being the same as a Deacon, Scaly, or a Totem Warrior.
They get heavy weapons. Which is the main thing. The only heavy weapon available to any outlander gang is brakar the avenger (a mentor only special character). Deacons only get special weapons. Scalies do not get heavy weapons, they get their own special weapons. Totem warriors are hand to hand only. I, personally, would let you keep eavies but only let them use special weapons, not heavy weapons.


I thought you said to not increase the cost?
Only if you drop the BS by 1. Otherwise increase the cost.


Allowing orks to immediately test to break pinning has it's own faults to it, mostly in the fact that boyz have I 2. Even with immediate testing, the likelyhood of Orks escaping pinning is slim.
Its an extra 33% chance of being able to move in your turn. And gives them a 33% chance to not be pinned by overwatch fire. Especially important if you charge someone on overwatch.


I honestly like the rule. I think that it's characterful and it limits the growth somewhat in an interesting way. It also somewhat solves the problem of...
It provides them more income and i'm not sure why. You said you felt they were overpowered. Giving them twice as much income, where half of it doesn't rely on people gathering it, in fact rewards you for having guys taken out of action, makes them a bit more powerful. Yes its fluffy, and i don't mind if you keep that instead of foraging. But i don't think you should have both.


Cause, then I don't really need to trade. I'm limited to the equipment on my gang's list, but when I recruit new boyz, I can have them come in hauling equipment upgrades. I think it's novel.
yeah but you don't get photovisors/respirators, or any new, rare, special equipment. You're just going to be buying more and more guys (which not only gets boring, but unbalances the campaign).


Massive weapons sounds like a good deal, but dropping the Axe sounds kind of silly. I rule that Axes have the same rules as Clubs and mauls anyway, so there's no real reason for me to change it. Flails and chains might be something I should add. And I agree on dropping the Power Axe, but I think it should go to a rare roll sort of deal. New boyz being recruited can buy a Power Axe on a d6 roll of 6 and it costs 40+3d6. Just a thought.
I only suggested dropping the sword/axe cause it makes it looks like axes get parry. Axes have the same stats as mauls and i certainly have no objection to orks having axes. I also don't mind being able to pick up power axes on a D6 roll of 6. I just thought you might like to be able to go to the trading post. Just send gretchin.


Ok. This last one makes no sense from a Fluff and from a Balance point of view. Fluff wise, Orks love the Dakka and to deny them the Dakka seems silly in the utmost. Plus I've playtested the Kustom Kombi Weapon. If that's the only support weapon available to Orks, you're really curtailing their ability to shoot...though since you seem to want to gut their BS, maybe that's what you want.
Plasma weaponry is hardly orky weaponry, thats why i suggested dropping it. I've said my reasons for dropping the heavy weaponry and while i agree its fluffy its no more fluffy than say redemptionists having heavy weaponry. I feel they shouldn't suddenly break one of the unwritten rules of outlanders.


Mob Rule : Ork morale is directly linked to the number of Boyz around them at any given time. Orks may always test to recover from pinning at the start of a turn, but they add +1 to their I for every other Ork (not Gretchin) within 4". This bonus is applied even if the nearby Orks are pinned themselves, as most boyz would rather die than let their mates get to the fight first. Downed Orkz are not counted. This replaces the Total Immunity to pinning.
I like this rule, and i would let you use it. If you dropped the bit about even pinned ones counting I'd let you use it and my rule.


Weapons List - The revised weapon list is partly inspired by Gorkamorka
Hand to hand -
Knife / Knuckle Dusters - First Free / 5
Choppa - 10 - Generic Term for Clubs/Axes, ect.
'Uge Choppa - 10 - Generic Term for Massive Weapons
Chainz - 10

Pistols -
Slugga - 15 - Autopistol
Six Shoota - 15 - Stubgun with Dum-Dums. Can not be bought without Dum-Dums

Basic -
Shoota - 20 - Autogun
Kannon - 20 - Shotgun
Big Shoota (boltgun) - 35
looks fine.


Special -
Kustom Mega Blasta - 70 - Plasma Gun
Skorcha - 40 - Flamer
I don't like the plasma gun, I'd swap for melta gun. And I'd put the kustom weapon here, it doesn't necessarily even need move or fire.


Heavy -
'Eavy Shoota - 120 - Heavy Stubber
Rokkit Launcha - 180 - Grenade Launcher with Krak Grenades. Can not use Frags.
Kustom Kombi Weapon - 250
Like i said, i'd drop these. But its a much better heavy weapon list given the house weapon lists atm. In the end its up to you.


Runtz -
Shoota - 20 - Autogun
Blunderbuss - 8
I'd give them, if not the autopistol, the stub gun at least.


Kaptain Only-
Chainsword - 25
Big Slugga (bolt pistol) - 20
Plasma Pistol - 25
I'd still drop the plasma pistol, but thats just me.


Kaptains have access to Hand to Hand, Pistols, Basic, Special, and Kaptain Only.
Boyz have access to Hand to Hand, Pistols, and Basic
Eavees have access to Hand to Hand, Pistols, Special, and Heavy
Gretchin have access to Pistols and Runtz
That explains the no pistols on runt list actually.


Other changes I'm also considering:
Adding in Gorkamorka yoofs
Starting boyz at 20+D6 Exp
Changing "Eavees" to "Mekz"
I didn't notice boyz start at 0 xp, definitely put them up to 20+d6, that's ridiculous. Would changing 'eavies to mekz make any difference play wise? Would yoofs just be juves?

Gensuke626
02-11-2007, 10:30
Eavees to Mekz is a cosmetic thing, but at this point I think I'm going to be cranking out a new Ork list based on the Old one. Toning it down in many places but boosting it in the few spots I think things need to change.

Yoofs are the equivalent of Juves, but the Difference is that a Yoof in Gorkamorka starts at T3 and upon reaching 21 exp, the yoof becomes one of the boyz and gains +1T, not to take him above racial maxes. In the current Gang, the Gretchin fill the slot normally filled by Juves, but they don't grow in a really meaningful way.
Edit-Idea for the Grotz- I was chatting with my friend about making Grotz more useful for the gang, and I'm not sure of implementing this, but what if I did something like this?

Ork gangs have the So Many Mouths to Feed rule, as per Outlander/Outlaw gangs. Any model in an ork gang can go foraging for Skrap to sell after a battle, but since humans and Orks rarely see eye to eye on the value of a given piece of junk, each model that forages generates D6-2 credz, minimum 1.

However Grotz are very adept at tending the mushrooms and squiggly beasts that inevitably crop up around an Ork settlement. As such, a grot can "Tend da Squigz" instead of going out to forage. For each grot Tending the Squigs, roll a d6. On a roll of a 1, the Gretchin has gotten careless and is eaten by a vicious Gnasher squig, or chokes on a particularly nasty piece of fungus and dies. On any other result, the Grot cultivates enough food to feed itself and a number of models equal to half the die result, rounding down.

...I just realized, you're the dude who cranked out the Rules Development Fan Made 40k Ork list aren't you. If you're not then disregard the following bit, but Dang man...the list you churned out turned out to be almost exactly what GW is putting out...it's kinda weird.

Tomothy
02-11-2007, 11:36
Ork gangs have the So Many Mouths to Feed rule, as per Outlander/Outlaw gangs. Any model in an ork gang can go foraging for Skrap to sell after a battle, but since humans and Orks rarely see eye to eye on the value of a given piece of junk, each model that forages generates D6-2 credz, minimum 1.

However Grotz are very adept at tending the mushrooms and squiggly beasts that inevitably crop up around an Ork settlement. As such, a grot can "Tend da Squigz" instead of going out to forage. For each grot Tending the Squigs, roll a d6. On a roll of a 1, the Gretchin has gotten careless and is eaten by a vicious Gnasher squig, or chokes on a particularly nasty piece of fungus and dies. On any other result, the Grot cultivates enough food to feed itself and a number of models equal to half the die result, rounding down.
Well that means you're going to be costing yourself at least 30 creds (for dead gretchin) every 1/6 times, you'd lose their equipment too. And you'd only be making an average of 2 creds.


...I just realized, you're the dude who cranked out the Rules Development Fan Made 40k Ork list aren't you. If you're not then disregard the following bit, but Dang man...the list you churned out turned out to be almost exactly what GW is putting out...it's kinda weird.
Nope, not me, I don't play 40k.

Tomothy
02-11-2007, 12:35
Here's a quick, rough idea for an Ork gang in Necromunda:

Outlanders - Normal Rules, including bounty = value. Use standard outlander advance roll table (ie ratskins)

Leadership - An ork must have greater leadership and equal or greater strength in order to challenge. Gretchin won't challenge and cannot lead unless there are no orks, in which case no more orks can be recruited, only gretchin. A mek can and will challenge under the same conditions as an ork will, he will fulfill both rolls. Leadership challenges between two orks are always resolved in hth. Challenges between gretchin are always shooting.

Scavenging - Orks and Gretchin will eat anything, and as such only cost 2 creds to feed. Gretchin gain +1 to their scavenging rolls. Orks lose -1 from their scavenging rolls.

Captives - Orks will not ransom or exchange. Rescues take place as normal, anyone not rescued will be killed.

Know-Howz - If an Ork receives a skill from a table not normally available then that table is normally available to him from then on.

Runtz - Orks do not take breaking tests if a gretchin flees or goes down near them.

Stubborn - When an Ork is pinned they may make an immediate test to escape pinning. This is in addition to any tests they may be able to make at the start of their turn.

Tuff - Anytime an Ork would suffer a serious injury (including a beneficial one) roll a D6, on a 6 they do not suffer that injury.

Mekanik - Makes stuff. Once per game, as his post game action, you can pay 70 creds, roll a D6:

1. Power Klaw
2. Bioniks
3. Kustom Shokka
4. Eavy Armour
5. Kustom Force Field
6. Big Choppa

Each of these items may only be given to an Ork other than the Boss if the Boss already has one.

1 Ork Boss
60+D6 xp
150 creds
4/4/3/4/4/1/3/1/8
Leadership
Melee, Pistol, Basic, Special

0-1 Mek
60+D6 xp
70 creds
4/3/3/3/4/1/2/1/7
Mekanik
Melee, Pistol, Basic, Special

50%+ Ork
20+D6 xp
55 creds
4/3/2/3/4/1/2/1/7
Melee, Pistol, Basic

0+ Gretchin
0 xp
30 creds
4/2/3/3/3/1/3/1/5
Melee, Pistol, Basic

Weapon lists
Melee
Choppa (axe, maul, club) - free/10 creds
'Uge Choppa (massive weapon) - 10 creds
Chain - 10 creds

Pistol
Slugga (autopistol) - 15 creds
Six Shoota (stubgun) - 10 creds

Basic
Shoota (autogun) - 20 creds
Kannon (shotgun) - 20 creds

Special
Burna (flamer) - 40 creds
Stikk Chukka (grenade launcher) - 130 creds

Shells & Grenades
Frag Stikkbomz - 30 creds
Krak Stikkbomz - 50 creds
Dum Dums - 5 creds
Manstoppers - 5 creds
Hot Shot - 10 creds

Boss Only
Chainsword - 25
Big Slugga (boltpistol) - 20
Big Shoota (boltgun) - 35

Kustom Force Field - value 70 creds
5+ Invulnerable Save, cannot hide, no modifier to hit him behind soft cover and only -1 to hit him behind cover.

Bioniks - value 70 creds
(same as human versions)

Big Choppa - value 70 creds
Str as user +2, reroll one of your attack dice per turn, cannot be parried

Eavy Armour - value 70 creds
4+ save

Power Klaw - value 70 creds
Str as user +4, decapitates (same as shears), cannot be disarmed, cannot use arm for anything else

Kustom Shokka - value 70 creds
0-15 +1, 15-40, Str D6+1, Armour Mod -D3, Ammo 4+. Special Weapon.

Ork Max Stats
4/7/5/5/5/3/5/3/9

Gretchin Max Stats
4/6/6/4/4/3/6/3/8

Gensuke626
02-11-2007, 13:17
Hmm...I came up with similar rules. I decided to go with my version of Mob Rule for the moment...my own proposed list is sort of an amalgamation of 2nd and 4th ed as far as I can tell...Here's what I have.

Mob Rule! : Ork morale is directly linked to the number of Boyz around them at any given time. Orks may always test to recover from pinning at the start of a turn, but they add +1 to their I for every other Ork (not Gretchin) within 4". This bonus is applied even if the nearby Orks are pinned themselves, as most boyz would rather die than let their mates get to the fight first. Downed Orkz are not counted.

Income: Anyone who Forages manages to find D6-2 Credz worth of useful scrap.

Squig Tending: Any Gretchin who is eligible for foraging, may instead “Tend Da Squigz” to cultivate food. Roll a D6 for each Gretchin tending the Squigs. On a roll of a 1, then a Gretchin has been eaten by a vicious Gnasher Squig or choked to death on a particularly nasty piece of mushroom. Remove a Gretchin who was tending the squigs this turn from the Gang Roster. On any other result, the Grot cultivates enough food to feed itself and a number of models equal to half the result, rounding down.

1 Unda Nob - 130 Credz
4/4/4/3/4/1/3/1/8
Hand to Hand, Pistols, Basic, Stikkbommz
60+D6 Exp

0-2 Mekz - 80 Credz
4/3/3/3/4/1/2/1/7
Hand to Hand, Pistols, Special, Stikkbommz
60+D6 Exp

Boyz - 65 Credz
4/3/3/3/4/1/2/1/7
Hand to Hand, Pistols, Basic, Stikkbommz
20+D6 exp

Gretchin - 30 Credz
4/2/3/3/3/1/2/1/5
Pistols, Runtz
0 exp

Racial Maximums
Ork - 4/6/6/4/5/3/5/3/9
Grot - 4/3/4/3/3/1/3/1/6

‘And-ta-‘and
Knife / Knuckle Duster - 1st free / 5
Choppa (Axe, Club, ect.) - 10
‘Uge Choppa (Massive Weapon) - 10
Chainz - 10

Pistolz
Slugga (Autopistol) - 15
Six Shoota (Stub Gun w/ Dum-dums) - 15

Gunz
Shoota (Autogun) - 20
‘And Kannon (Shotgun) - 20
‘Eavy Shoota (Boltgun) - 35

Speshul
Skorcha (Flamer) - 40
Rokkit Launcha (Grenade Launcher with Krak Grenades) - 180
Deffgun - 250
Kustom Mega Blasta - 350

Stikkbommz
Frag - 35
Krak - 55

Runtz
Shoota - 20
Blunderbuss - 8

Nob only
Chainsword - 25
'Eavy Slugga (Bolt Pistol) - 20

Deffgun
Rng/To Hit/Str/Sv. Mod/Damage/Ammo Roll
D6x10/ +2/ Arty Die/ 1/2 Arty Die / 1 / 4+
Move or Fire
Special - If misfire is roll for str, then gun explodes and causes S4 hit to user.

Kustom Mega Blasta
0-12 / 12-32 / +1 / -1 / Art Die / -2 / 1 / 4+
Sustained Fire: 2 dice
Special - If misfire is rolled for str, then gun explodes and causes S4 hit to user.

That's all I got so far...I'm still working out how I want trading to run, but I figure just letting it run like outlaws will be enough.

I also want to bring in the Gorkamorka rule of being able to use Stikkbomms as a club...and the rule that if you do that and both players roll a 6, then the stikk bomm goes of and hits the weilder and his target.

But it's 2 AM and I need to get to sleep...