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Imperial Dragon
31-10-2007, 06:24
(think it goes here)

Is it possible for there to be evil ones, you know help chaos but not by tricking them??

MrWoten
31-10-2007, 06:29
Helping Chaos is one thing but who ever said their goals were ever altruistic? They're incredibly shadowy, even to Craftworld Eldar.

Rodman49
31-10-2007, 07:18
Somehow I doubt it, don't they worship the one Eldar god who did not get pwned by Chaos?

Hellebore
31-10-2007, 07:22
Unlike chaos orks, or chaos tau, etc the harlequins couldn't be, because they are adherents to a single god.

They can only do what that god wants them to, if they don't they are no longer a harlequin.

Being a harlequin is like being a democrat or a republican, it's a specific ideology, which means if you don't follow it, you are no longer one.

Thus those eldar that become harlequins might turn from that path, but if they do, then they are just eldar on the path of something else, and not a harlequin.

Hellebore

Tehkonrad
31-10-2007, 07:44
well that clears that one up

Bregalad
31-10-2007, 10:26
Show me a Chaos worshipping Grey Knight, and I show you a Chaos Harlequin ;)
Wouldn't prevent people to add the usual spikes and tentacles to their Harlequin minis, to show off their ingenious imagination :rolleyes:

DantesInferno
31-10-2007, 10:53
(think it goes here)

Is it possible for there to be evil ones, you know help chaos but not by tricking them??

It's possible to be evil without worshipping (or even helping) Chaos, you know...

Harlequins are perfectly capable of acts we'd normally describe as "evil": massacring non-combatants; torture or so on. But as others have said, they won't do it to help Chaos.

SV_Harlequin
31-10-2007, 12:35
As stated before a Harlequin is a Eldar/Dark Eldar/Exodite etc that has be chosen to join the fight against Chaos and specifically Slaanesh. Harlequins are the least corruptable to Chaos than any of their kind as their souls are protected by The Laughing God which is why they don't need Spirit Stones.

But if one should fall it would cease to ba a Harlequin as I can imagine if he/she can't be brought back it would be a swift death by their own troupe.

MrBigMr
31-10-2007, 15:30
Solitaire, anyone?


Wouldn't prevent people to add the usual spikes and tentacles to their Harlequin minis, to show off their ingenious imagination :rolleyes:
There you go again with those negative vibes, man...

I do agree that Harlequin turning evil is about as likely as a Grey Knight. They know their enemy and thus are able to fight back. Naturally there's nothing to stop a full possession, but I don't see neither falling to Chaos willingly. But I don't see why one couldn't use the models or rules as something else. A little converted Harlequins would look nice as Death Cult Assassin. Maybe say they're working with an Inquisitor to fight Chaos or something.

chris.seraphim
31-10-2007, 15:51
Harlequins ARE evil in a human sense. They follow their own moral code. They worship a strange and alien god. Even the normally enigmatic Craftworld Eldar, think that the Quins are a bit...'other.'

Good and evil are pretty redundant in the 40k setting, as its all a case of point of view. FRom a human PoV now, almost everyone ion 40K is eveil, and from an Imperial PoV, anyone who isn't Imperial is evil...

And Harlequins, like ALL Eldar, can';t turmn to chaosd, no matter hwo much you want them to, because Chaos Eldar are called LUNCH for She Who Thirsts, no reprieves, much less boons for worship, just a brutal death and an eternity in pain.
End of discussion.

MrBigMr
31-10-2007, 16:17
And Harlequins, like ALL Eldar, can';t turmn to chaosd, no matter hwo much you want them to, because Chaos Eldar are called LUNCH for She Who Thirsts, no reprieves, much less boons for worship, just a brutal death and an eternity in pain.
End of discussion.
Some posters are always tryin' to ice skate uphill.
http://ca.games-workshop.com/Wrath/Story/Saaremaa/home.htm
Not to forget all the talk about Crone Worlders and all that.

Imperialis_Dominatus
31-10-2007, 16:35
Show me a Chaos worshipping Grey Knight, and I show you a Chaos Harlequin ;)

Agreed.


Wouldn't prevent people to add the usual spikes and tentacles to their Harlequin minis, to show off their ingenious imagination :rolleyes:

Gosh, you really rag on Chaotic mutations, don't you? I think I've seen a dozen distinct posts in as many threads that say this same thing. :p But I see your point. Don't worry, I know a few Chaos armies without spikes and tentaclies... like mine.


It's possible to be evil without worshipping (or even helping) Chaos, you know...

A lot of people forget this.


Harlequins are perfectly capable of acts we'd normally describe as "evil": massacring non-combatants; torture or so on. But as others have said, they won't do it to help Chaos.

Not just Harlies. Eldar overall are evil in nature. They follow the Paths to keep themselves in check. Read the Eldar Codex- particularly the bit about Eldar becoming pirates. They can bounce between magnanamity and mercilessness. They are amoral, arrogant, and, given free reign and power over the galaxy, created a vile god(dess) through acts which any normal human would consider unconscionable.

DISCLAIMER: I am not trying to say that humans in the 40k universe are better. Repeat, I am not trying to say humans are better. Put away the torches, pitchforks, and icky grimy peasant outfits. Do not burn down my dorms, do not hang me from the nearest tree. I am not in any way shape or form an Imperial fanboi. I play Chaos.

Just keeping that clear.


Some posters are always tryin' to ice skate uphill.
http://ca.games-workshop.com/Wrath/Story/Saaremaa/home.htm
Not to forget all the talk about Crone Worlders and all that.

Ah, a smile to my face once again.

Khaine's Messenger
31-10-2007, 18:13
Is it possible for there to be evil ones, you know help chaos but not by tricking them??

Only if it makes sense as part of their masque. Even then, they would not deign to serve the powers of Chaos, merely to remind others of Their influence by association and self-imperilment. The Solitaire, as pointed out by MrBigMr, is an obvious canonical reference to such a position in the masque. Some groups might have similar roles for other warp powers that similarly imperil their souls for the benefit of others (and the Stories).

carlisimo
31-10-2007, 19:51
It's hard to say because we still don't know what the Harlequins' goal is. It's likely that it's something anti-Chaos, but still evil. (Like say, accelerating the death of the Eldar race so Ynnead can be born to engage and destroy Slaanesh, or something crazy like that.)

But it's very hard to accept that they'd be helping Chaos. Or that they could be tricked, when their god is the foremost trickster of the galaxy.

Imperialis_Dominatus
31-10-2007, 20:21
It's likely that it's something anti-Chaos, but still evil. (Like say, accelerating the death of the Eldar race so Ynnead can be born to engage and destroy Slaanesh, or something crazy like that.)

Interesting idea. It wouldn't seem evil to them though; or to Farseers who believe in the Ynnead theory. It's perspective.

Chaplain Dionitas
31-10-2007, 20:30
It's possible to be evil without worshipping (or even helping) Chaos, you know...


Yep...just look at the imperium. Exterminatus Extremis

carlisimo
31-10-2007, 20:43
I agree evil's relative but c'mon... we can't have a discussion about Harlequins being capable of evil if we're going to argue over the entire concept of 'evil.' Discuss the harlies, not words!

boogaloo
31-10-2007, 20:52
Somehow I doubt it, don't they worship the one Eldar god who did not get pwned by Chaos?

They worship "the laughing god" who tricked his brother's in to warring amongst eachother causing a "war in heaven"... another hidden C'tan anybody?

The imperium got the void dragon of mars, eldar got the deciever, what can we say. You'll notice that the face of the shadowseer staff has a face like the deciever (4 hair like tentacle expansion thingies) and on the other face is a skull... perhaps implying a duplicity of their god :eek:

MrBigMr
31-10-2007, 21:01
You mean, will a Harlequin seek to do harm to others (and pitch a tent on the progress), rather than just try and help the Eldar (or Harlequin) cause? I don't see why not. It's not about corruption, just personality. Like there has never been crazy people in places where there shouldn't be any, and getting away with it (for some time). I don't see why a Grey Knight couldn't be a rat bastard too, no matter how loyal and zealous he might be.

Imperialis_Dominatus
31-10-2007, 21:02
I'm gonna go out on a limb here and frankly say 'no' to the idea that Cegorach is also the Deciever. I don't think the C'tan need to be any more entrenched into the background of every race. What's next? The Outsider is Mork?

Besides, Cegorach has a Warp presence, as do the other Eldar gods, right? Now, the big question is, do the C'tan have a Warp presence?

Well, seeing as how the C'tan hate and despise Warp energy, psykers, etc. and it is their greatest anathema, I'm gonna say no.

So Cegorach =/= the Deciever.

Indrid Khold
31-10-2007, 21:06
I'm gonna go out on a limb here and frankly say 'no' to the idea that Cegorach is also the Deciever. I don't think the C'tan need to be any more entrenched into the background of every race. What's next? The Outsider is Mork?

Besides, Cegorach has a Warp presence, as do the other Eldar gods, right? Now, the big question is, do the C'tan have a Warp presence?

Well, seeing as how the C'tan hate and despise Warp energy, psykers, etc. and it is their greatest anathema, I'm gonna say no.

So Cegorach =/= the Deciever.


I agree completely.

Hellebore
31-10-2007, 21:57
Show me a Chaos worshipping Grey Knight, and I show you a Chaos Harlequin ;)
Wouldn't prevent people to add the usual spikes and tentacles to their Harlequin minis, to show off their ingenious imagination :rolleyes:

Well, see there is a difference there.

Being a harlequin is like being a Khorne Berserker - a follower of a specific god.

It's not impossible for a berserker to follow Nurgle for instance, it just means that they lose their mark of khorne.

Similarly, a harlequin is still an eldar, and an eldar can turn to the worship of chaos. If a harlequin DID, they would lose their 'mark' of Cegorach.

Hellebore

Bregalad
31-10-2007, 23:01
There you go again with those negative vibes, man...


Gosh, you really rag on Chaotic mutations, don't you? I think I've seen a dozen distinct posts in as many threads that say this same thing. :p But I see your point. Don't worry, I know a few Chaos armies without spikes and tentaclies... like mine.

Point is: All those threads about the ingenious, "never seen before" ideas of Chaos Tau, Chaos Eldar, Chaos Grey Knights, Chaos Sororitas, Chaos Orks, Chaos Harlequins and so on in the last few weeks are really getting on my nerves. I am really tempted to swarm the forum with a thread a week about my new
1.) Tau Necron Auxiliaries
2.) Tau Tyranid Auxiliaries
3.) Tau Daemon Auxiliaries
4.) Tau Grey Knight Auxiliaries
5.) Tau Sororitas Auxiliaries
6.) Tau Legio Mortis Auxiliaries
7.) Tau Ork Auxiliaries
8.) Tau Inquisition Auxiliaries
9.) Tau Black Templar Auxiliaries
10) ...

each time giving them a Rail Rifle and a shoulder armour and waiting for applause :rolleyes:
Perhaps that will teach Chaos players to have a little respect for other armies background :evilgrin:

Imperialis_Dominatus
31-10-2007, 23:19
Hey, I've never endorsed Chaos Necrons, Grey Knights, Adepta Sororitas, Tau etc., and have on only the rarest and best explained circumstances accepted Chaos Eldar. I'd demand the same of you. :p

Respect for the background, if any player respects the background... ugh. The depths to which I go to respect it, and what do I get? A blanket condemnation from Bregalad himself! :p

MrWoten
31-10-2007, 23:24
Wait wait wait! You forgot about Chaos Zoats!!

On a serious note I know that Tyranids are sort of shadows in the warp, but what would happen if you were to say capture a Gaunt and expose it to raw Chaos, like taking it into the Eye of Terror for an indefinite period of time? And has the Imperium ever considered the idea of launching Genestealers onto the Daemonworlds in the Eye, much like they did the Orkoid worlds?

Bregalad
31-10-2007, 23:28
See what I mean? :p
@Imperialis_Dominatus: AFAIK you never started a thread like that, so you get absolution for now ;)

Imperialis_Dominatus
31-10-2007, 23:28
Sounds like an experiment for Fabulous Pile.

But that is interesting, though there'd need to be a Hive Fleet near the Eye to divert it there, otherwise they'll still take out a ton of worlds in their path. And I don't think there is such a fleet in the background.

EDIT:

See what I mean?
@Imperialis_Dominatus: AFAIK you never started a thread like that, so you get absolution for now ;)

Yes. But I had to at least try to entertain it.

IJW
01-11-2007, 08:56
Point is: All those threads about the ingenious, "never seen before" ideas of Chaos Tau, Chaos Eldar, Chaos Grey Knights, Chaos Sororitas, Chaos Orks, Chaos Harlequins and so on in the last few weeks are really getting on my nerves.
It's probably worth mentioning here that Chaos Orks go back to 1st ed and the Freebooters book - there was even a model released. As far as I remember, it was pretty much limited to Stormboys of Khorne, though.

The rest are just... 'odd'.

Bregalad
01-11-2007, 11:30
In Rogue Trader days, there were also a couple of Chaos Eldar and Chaos Squat minis, but background has obviously changed.

IJW
01-11-2007, 11:44
Chaos Squats, I've even got a couple. But are you sure about Chaos Eldar?

MrBigMr
01-11-2007, 14:11
Similarly, a harlequin is still an eldar, and an eldar can turn to the worship of chaos. If a harlequin DID, they would lose their 'mark' of Cegorach.
Sounds like one talk some time ago how a CSM made from other than gene-seeds (experiments, mutations, etc.), is not a 'space marine', because it doesn't have the same training and gene-seeds.

So a Chaos Harlequin would be a normal Chaos Eldar?


Point is: All those threads about the ingenious, "never seen before" ideas of Chaos Tau, Chaos Eldar, Chaos Grey Knights, Chaos Sororitas, Chaos Orks, Chaos Harlequins and so on in the last few weeks are really getting on my nerves.
I'm not saying the ideas are revolutionary, but about as smart as vanilla SM. No one goes "Oh, great, another Ultrasmurf army. How original."


Perhaps that will teach Chaos players to have a little respect for other armies background :evilgrin:
I'm wondering how humans should be the only race in the universe susceptible to Chaos. Even the 'Nids aren't past that. I believe it was some Space Wolf novel that featured a Nurgle corrupted Hive Ship (and fleet?). Chaos is universal, created by races that were around long before humanity even climbed into trees, and there will be such races long after as well.

I don't see how sororitas are less turnable to Chaos than normal humans. And if solar flares (http://uk.games-workshop.com/necrons/getting%2Dstarted/5/) can screw with Necrons, why can't ruinous powers that can make tanks move without crew?

If you want to make those Auxiliaries, Bregalad, then do them. 'Nids outside of the Hive Mind are just animals, trainable and enslavable (In Daemon World they were used as slave labour), maybe some Orks have seen the glory of the Greater Good and even the Inquisition isn't above alien influence. In the ol' GW forum some mod did mention an official story where an Inquisitor had jumped the Imperial band wagon for the Orks of all races.

And I think that Chaos isn't always about corruption and such. One has to remember that it's based around core emotions, which we all have. Worshiping a god is sometimes about worshiping the ideology behind it. Orks like to fight, Khorne is all about stompin', so if some Warboss worships Khorne (in their own way), why not? It doesn't mean the Orks are anymore Chaos than normal Orks, they just believe in Khorne more than Gor'n'Mork.

Even the Tau aren't above those basic emotions. It's the society that has made the people put them aside 'for the Greater Good'. Even the Eldar are pretty emotional, they just suppress them to not provoke corruption. So I don't see why a Tau might not find the ideas of a Chaos god appealing, even if that god doesn't grant them anything nor does the Tau even think there really is some great beast lurking in the night.

We worship all sorts of gods, but what have they ever done for us? Lately at least. So far the only effect I've seen of God, was when my friend realized he has to pay 3% more taxes than me, because he belongs to the Church. The question is, What Has Jesus Done For You? I'm religious, but don't belong into any church or religion, and my life is as good as anyone elses.

But that ranting aside, I can't speak for groups, but there's always an individual that might go down a dark path, willingly or not. So far I haven't had any flak for having a Tau in my Chaos army, but that's an individual with her own reasons for it.


And apart from those, there's always the joys of surprise possession. For so long I have wanted to make a Chaos Spawn from a Necron Warrior, Tau Drone and a Wraithguard, since by TT rules, it's possible. Imagine a sort of grey living metal obliterator with gauss flayer rods and claws growing all over its body, same with wraithbone, or a Tau drone spitting out oil and growing mechanical tentacles and structures from the disc.

Kage2020
01-11-2007, 14:15
I cannot remember the Chaos Eldar ones specifically, but I do have a rather hazy memory about Chaos Champions that looked remarkably Eldar-like.

As for the original question, I would ask only with this: In the 40k universe everything can be corrupted. Except the exceptions, of which there are many and even include exceptions to those exceptions (which shouldn't be mistaken for a general rule, since that's interpretation ;)).

My general rule, though? No, Harlequins cannot "turn to the Dark Side." Except the Solitaire, but that's an exception. ;)

Kage

IJW
01-11-2007, 14:29
I cannot remember the Chaos Eldar ones specifically, but I do have a rather hazy memory about Chaos Champions that looked remarkably Eldar-like.
Almost all the Chaos Champions were sculpted by Jes Goodwin, so there's bound to be a certain amount of similarity. ;)

That said, you've jogged my mind - there was a Chaos Eldar conversion that appeared in 'Eavy Metal, but I can't remember a 'release' model.

Kage2020
01-11-2007, 14:36
Hmmn... Jes Goodwin would explain a lot, and I do have an even hazier memory about a conversion, but this is going back years in an aspect of the hobby that I don't maintain an active interest. In other words, darn my failing memory. ;)

Incidentally, I forget to add something to my previous post which was, in essence, "Even the Emperor can be corrupted, and arguably was..." :D

Kage

IJW
01-11-2007, 14:42
Incidentally, I forget to add something to my previous post which was, in essence, "Even the Emperor can be corrupted, and arguably was..."
:p Why else would he have ignored all the warning signs? :D

Kage2020
01-11-2007, 15:16
Exactly! :D

Kage

Green-is-best
01-11-2007, 16:51
Sounds like one talk some time ago how a CSM made from other than gene-seeds (experiments, mutations, etc.), is not a 'space marine', because it doesn't have the same training and gene-seeds.

So a Chaos Harlequin would be a normal Chaos Eldar?

Yep, it's like if a Catholic left the church to be a Buddhist, she definitionally wouldn't be a Catholic anymore because she left he church.


maybe some Orks have seen the glory of the Greater Good

I tink youz means da Greatur Gud.

Kymar
01-11-2007, 17:45
I tink youz means da Greatur Gud.

lol You just gave me a great idea for an army of Blood Axe orks who've spend too much time fighting the Tau. I think a Fire warrior helmet will look great with an iron gob!

Direhamster
01-11-2007, 19:42
Chaos Eldar would be exceptionally cool IMHO - like Eldar seeking protection from Slanesh under the wings of the Lord of Change for instance - they already are chaotic in nature, as said kept in check by the paths, but the paths can be abandoned, and their arch enemy is the Prince of Excess not all ruinous powers...

As to Harlequins - individuals can be tricked and decaived - like Imperial Inquistor may be, but the group will not succumb due to the code they follow, and in Case of Eldar the influence of Cegorach himself.

Direhamster