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catbarf
31-10-2007, 20:07
Hi, I remember reading from Rogue Trader that Khorne used to be the god of war rather than slaughter. I figured this meant that instead of mindless bloodshed, Khorne was more about honor and victory. So, if I were to try and represent this in a Renegade IG army, how would I do this? Color scheme suggestions? Conversions? Army list? All advice appreciated.

I'm thinking over two things. One is that one of my sergeants will carry a rapier as a melee weapon- a weapon of finesse and skill, evoking thoughts of duels used to settle matters of honor. As for color schemes, I'm wondering if perhaps I should use a grey scheme- compared to the red used most often, it reflects a colder viewpoint on war, which is part of my objective. Comments appreciated.

keatsmeister
31-10-2007, 20:15
Perhaps you could use a lasgun stock arm as the base for your leader's sword arm, so you'd have him saluting with the sword. I tried this with one of the old plastic Stormtroopers for a sergeant conversion, and it worked quite well.

catbarf
31-10-2007, 20:23
I assume you mean something like this?

http://english.pladaily.com.cn/special/guards/content/image/17.jpg

And which piece exactly do you suggest I use?

Raven1
31-10-2007, 20:31
Also remember that Khorne at one point in time respected all kinds of war, even shooting. So, keep that in mind.

catbarf
31-10-2007, 20:38
Aha! Thanks VERY much for that, I had completely forgotten! What would you recommend to reflect that aspect of Khorne?

keatsmeister
31-10-2007, 20:40
I assume you mean something like this?

And which piece exactly do you suggest I use?

Yeah, something like that. Well, [scrambles through the bits box] I'm probably going to try this, so I'm looking to use the parts from the vehicle sprue with the full Cadian torso and legs, and the peak cap head from said box. I'll use the Cadian Lasgun arm which holds tightest and the highest across the body. Then use the Sergeant's chainsword arm, shave off the sergeant's chevrons, and replace the chainsword with a laspistol. The effect would be an officer stood at ease as though pausing to acknowledge his opponent, saluting with the sword in his right hand, but with the pistol readied in his left. Not the best description, but if I can find the bits, I can blu-tack them together in a rough approximation

ash_wednesday
31-10-2007, 20:43
Basicly paint them in different shades of red. At least drybrush them with red to give them a blood stain look. Give them a bunch of screaming heads. Other then that..there's not much else.

catbarf
31-10-2007, 20:49
Well, that's the thing. Red seems to be to be the mindless, screaming 'new' Khorne. The old one seemed more cold, calculating, honorable. I'm afraid that red will make it seem too much like the former.

Hey, I have an idea. I'll try using red, brown, grey, and off-white in equal (random) measures.

ffoecaf
31-10-2007, 20:54
The Grey 'serious' look would probably be good. Lots of banners with the Khornate symbol. Perhaps a junior officer or two who is holding a rapier out extended in one hand, with the other behind his back, in a dueling/fighting stance.

Raven1
31-10-2007, 21:04
Well don't be afraid to be a very shooty army.
I would use shades of red and brass for colors. If you can, get the trophy racks for vehicles skulls for the skull throne.

Perhaps many commissars, to instill the ideaology of khorne. The marshall side and the who cares where the blood flows side(commissars can kill guardsmen right?)

Bring the big guns to bear, maybe like a armored company, or a drop troop army.

Im thinking of fast, hard hitting styles of play.
that is khorne in my mind.
I don't know how vostroyan play like, but it might be worth while to look at them to play.

keatsmeister
31-10-2007, 21:21
Yeah, something like that. Well, [scrambles through the bits box] I'm probably going to try this, so I'm looking to use the parts from the vehicle sprue with the full Cadian torso and legs, and the peak cap head from said box. I'll use the Cadian Lasgun arm which holds tightest and the highest across the body. Then use the Sergeant's chainsword arm, shave off the sergeant's chevrons, and replace the chainsword with a laspistol. The effect would be an officer stood at ease as though pausing to acknowledge his opponent, saluting with the sword in his right hand, but with the pistol readied in his left. Not the best description, but if I can find the bits, I can blu-tack them together in a rough approximation

OK, something like this (apologies for the shocking picture quality, there is a reason I run a DVD and games store rather than live the life of a papparazzi)

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2356/1810312498_30e432a30a.jpg?v=0

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2255/1809467057_9a8d4cdde1.jpg?v=0

The torso, legs and head are from the tank accessory sprue, the right arm is the lasgun arm from the Cadian Infantry Sprue (part D, I had a spare sprue around to look it up), and the left arm and chainsword are the sergeant's arm, again from the Cadian Infantry box. I did clip and rotate the left hand around a little before adding the pistol, but a pretty simple and effective pose I think. I think I may just spend some time on a fully painted version with a Power Weapon and green stuff a greatcoat on for a new Commissar mini...:)

t-tauri
31-10-2007, 21:22
Khorne's colours are Red, Black and brass. An army in black and brass would be a nice change.

Most of the Daemon engines from the old Epic game are Khorne specific so things like cannon of Khorne (http://www.collecting-citadel-miniatures.com/wiki/index.php/Image:Armorcast_Cannon_of_Khorne_Box_Art_UP.jpg) and Cauldrons of Blood (http://www.collecting-citadel-miniatures.com/wiki/index.php/Image:Armorcast_Blood_Cauldron_of_Khorne_UP.jpg) epitomise the fact that Khorne was a god of War in all it's forms with access to potent tanks and ranged weapons not just the moronic slaughterer from the third edition codex.

catbarf
31-10-2007, 21:32
Black, eh? Perhaps shades of grayscale from black to white.

Which do you think would be best- different greys, blacks and greys, or the aforementioned red/brown/white/grey?

boogle
31-10-2007, 22:32
Sound like you're looking for something ala Mordians in terms of look, or am i barking up the wrong tree?

Green Shoes
31-10-2007, 22:47
The martial prowess and honor bits could conflict. On one hand, worshippers of Khorne would want to show off their skill by having trophy racks, etc., whereas the other would have them showing honor and respect to their foes by letting them die as warriors and not beheading, eviscerating, etc. them.

I also like th idea of a Brass/Black scheme, but make sure to put plenty of Skulls of Khorne all over the models so they are not confused with Black Legion.

catbarf
31-10-2007, 22:54
Sound like you're looking for something ala Mordians in terms of look, or am i barking up the wrong tree?

Not really. I plan on using the FW Renegade Militia models.

boogle
31-10-2007, 23:33
fair enough, the Militia models are screaming out for blodstained clothes however

Outlaw289
31-10-2007, 23:43
There is a reason Khorne's favored unit is Beserkers and not Samurai. I don't mind Khornates being promoted as a mindle slaughterers, as that is probably how violence is reflected on the warp. The Old Khorne was when armies maybe respected the rules of war and fought on somewhat reasonable terms. Now, Khorne represents the brutal unforgiving reality of exterminatus, Strength D weapons, and power armored assaults on barely trained conscripts. War is quick, bloody, and hate filled in M41, and the 'new' Khorne reflects this.

keatsmeister
01-11-2007, 00:11
There is a reason Khorne's favored unit is Beserkers and not Samurai. I don't mind Khornates being promoted as a mindle slaughterers, as that is probably how violence is reflected on the warp. The Old Khorne was when armies maybe respected the rules of war and fought on somewhat reasonable terms. Now, Khorne represents the brutal unforgiving reality of exterminatus, Strength D weapons, and power armored assaults on barely trained conscripts. War is quick, bloody, and hate filled in M41, and the 'new' Khorne reflects this.

However, by your own argument, it is perfectly reasonable that an army raised in a theatre of war where the rules of war are respected would be more inclined towards the martial aspect of Khorne worship. Gods by definition cannot be pigeon-holed into a particular form of worship, and have many aspects, as is embodied in the not-so-subtly named Aspect Warriors in their worship of Khaine. True enough, it would be an incredible exception to the nature of 40K for a theatre of war to exist where the rules of war are respected, but it is the exceptions which keep things from turning into a sludgy, dull gruel that even Oliver Twist would have to fight a gag reflex to swallow.

catbarf
01-11-2007, 00:37
I couldn't care less about the current fluff- this is something that fits in with an older edition, and I'm really doing this more about the painting and conversion opportunities than fluff.

Pokpoko
01-11-2007, 00:56
black and brass would look ace. or really deep,rich red and brass.maybe even some "ancient" gold on some details. i'd try and use the commisars as any sort of officers, as they have exactly that kind of "sophisticated ruthlesness" air about them that i think you'r after.
the idea of making an army dedicated to this more "honorable" aspect of Khorne is really good one. you get to play the guys that won't get sneaky on their foe instead figting straight-on, but won't think twice about finishing him off if he's wounded or defeated(as he's obviously not worth to live in such instance).way,way better than the "me khorne,me kill you."routine.

as for rules-defo get the "close order drill" and iron discipline, the rest is ok as long as it's nothing "dishonourable" like light infantry,infiltration and such...

Ronin_eX
01-11-2007, 01:07
I couldn't care less about the current fluff- this is something that fits in with an older edition, and I'm really doing this more about the painting and conversion opportunities than fluff.

This is exactly what interests me in the new codex. I have been planning a Martial Honour style Khorne force and this latest codex is perfect for it. Good luck on your Khornate renegades.

For colour scheme I'd say dark red and brass would look pretty good, maybe add some black onto veteran units to differentiate them visually. I'd also suggest using some of the other non-renegade IG models from FW. Those gas-masked rough riders would look very good with a few chaos symbols added and the cavalry charge screams valour and honour.

catbarf
01-11-2007, 01:50
Well, I'm in a bit of a pickle regarding the red. Since I'm using three greys (very dark, medium, very light), I want the red to be a greyish-red so it gives the model a red tone without creating too much contrast. The issue is that whenever I mix red gore with codex grey, I get pink... not pretty. Any suggestions?

vipernyc
01-11-2007, 02:07
his colors have always been red, black and brass... everyone does red, but I think using brass as the main color would look kinda cool!

catbarf
01-11-2007, 02:28
It would, but it's a little impractical on models composed mostly of cloth.

So, does anyone know how to make a red/grey that doesn't look pink?

Raven1
01-11-2007, 03:12
you might try a red ink

I do a black on silver for the IW that is 2(ink):5(water):1(dish soap)
It will give it a red hue and wont clot and will sink into the recesses

AbyssRaven
01-11-2007, 03:41
Stop trying to tell him how he should do it. let him play to the older fluff because thats how he wants to. End of story

I like the idea alot.
Have you thought about black/grey Cloth bits with armour bits/etal bits being brass with a slight red ink overash ?

As to representing khorne i would maybe actually use an Inquisitor lord as the HQ (if your using Ig lists which i believe you are). Set him up for CC (so more witch hunter) with Crusader body guard and maybe chirgeon.
If nto that i would say Plasma isnt exactly the way to go for the theme your looking for. I would more go with Grenade launchers and missiles. The odd Anti tank lascannon,a nd some heavy Bolters.
On the models represent the shooting ones as gun lines when you pose them. Like, say, the red coats in the american civil war, or war for independance , or what ever war it was fought with england. The trained gun lines ranked up.
Actually that would be a time to base a rough theme/feel on. if you research it alittle. because at those times the english saw war as "gentlmanly". not exactly what your after, but it would have a similar effect to what your after

Dr Morbius
01-11-2007, 06:06
Please excuse if I spoil your project, but I have to say that in RT days Khorne WAS the god of violence. Nothing about honour. Here's a short quote from Slaves to Darkness:

"Khorne is the Power of Chaos in its aspect of mindless and absolute violence, detroying everything and everyone within its reach, slaying both friend and foe alike"

I agree that this does not limit Khorne to Berserkers, as you can easily do a lot of violence also with a missle launcher.

But the honour thing only came in much later and was, at this time, seen as marketing coup to appeal to a younger audience without shocking the parents.

But please do not get my remark wrong. I always like when people give more thoughts to their army. Just wanted to point out that this is not the Khorne from the RT days.

WorLord
01-11-2007, 06:19
I really don't have a problem with having more than one aspect of khorne represented at the same time. Most of my chaos army is painted up in Khornate colors - red, black, brass. The regular CSM and Havok squads shed just as much blood for Khorne with their weapons, just not up close and personal like the berserkers.

Not all Khornates are berserkers - just the most extreme/dedicated worshipers...and even they still keep their pistols.

Raven1
01-11-2007, 06:24
Dr. Morbis there is some fluff at least with epic that says that khorne is a martial god. Though he does not care from where the blood just that it flows. In fact there is something that says that if a khorne follower kill someone in cold blood and/or injustly khorne will kill him.

There is some honor to it. He is the god of war though.

and it was the War for Independence, I would have also accepted the Revolutionary War :)
The Civil war we fought ourselves, stupid south!

AbyssRaven
01-11-2007, 07:13
and it was the War for Independence, I would have also accepted the Revolutionary War :)
The Civil war we fought ourselves, stupid south!

I knew it was one of them >.>


iono australian schools only teach australian history. which is EXTREMLY boring. 200 years of settlement, coloniasation, and aboriginal studies.
/yawn

catbarf
01-11-2007, 11:10
Instead of a red ink wash, I think I'll use several successive, thin layers of red glazes. It should bring out the color without being too blatant.

last akodo
01-11-2007, 11:34
Another good way to get a dullish red is use mechrite red possibly with just a tiny portion of chaos black in it.

catbarf
01-11-2007, 11:51
Well, I want less of a dull red than a grey red. Since most of the rest of the models will be greyscale, if I can use a greyish color it will create a subtle tone that alters the appearance if the whole model.

BajsArne
01-11-2007, 12:49
In fact there is something that says that if a khorne follower kill someone in cold blood and/or injustly khorne will kill him.

Is it possible to get a reference for this? It seems to go against pretty much everything else before and after. Perhaps it was written by the intern?

Ok you might interpret "He looks with particlar favour upon those who take the lives of their friends and allies, and the more death and destruction a creature has caused, the more welcome it is as a sacrifice to Khorne." (Slaves to darkness, p. 17) as killing nonkillers is not worth anything, but I really think the focus is on "Death and destruction".

But perhaps they worship that same version of Khorne as the old Stormboyz of Khorne? I seem to recall something about them following some martial rules.

EVIL INC
01-11-2007, 12:56
Finally someone who is willing to play Khorne as he really is rather then using the watered down "fluff for kids" that he is today.
1. I agree with more black and brass then red
2. I would stay away from the rapier even in the old fluff, that sort of weapon was rare and other khorne champions looked down on ones who carried them. I like the salute pose though. Maybe use reguler swords instead of chainswords.
3. Dont forget to add mutations. :evilgrin:
4. Most definately, use heavy weapons. Khorne was MUCH more likely to gift his followers with them then any other god as he loved the heavy weapons more then the other gods. Maybe convert your havoks to have heavy weapons as built in mutations rather then actually carrying them.
5. Get as many berserker heads as possible and add them onto reguler chaos marine bodies. This will help you build up your army of havoks and such so that they look the part more rather then looking like reguler chaos marines painted in khorne colors.
6. If you go the daemon route, get your hands on as many rogue trader daemons as possible. I mean the original bloodthirster and bloodletters and fleshhounds.

catbarf
01-11-2007, 13:18
I might have forgotten to say this before, but I'm using Renegade Militia, using Guard rules.

EVIL INC
01-11-2007, 13:31
I might have forgotten to say this before, but I'm using Renegade Militia, using Guard rules.

My bad. Had not caught that bit. Me slinks out. :p

AdmiralDick
01-11-2007, 13:46
Aha! Thanks VERY much for that, I had completely forgotten! What would you recommend to reflect that aspect of Khorne?

this sounds like a really good army (infact it makes me want to collect a Khornate IG army). the red and grey scheme sounds pretty cool to, and it sounds like you either have it sorted or are well on the way. as for army composition there are a number of things you try.

1) i would include a lot of Basilisks and/or mortar units, as they were similar in style to the old Doom Blaster (http://www.solegends.com/citcat9x4/c93494-02.htm), Cannon of Khorne (http://www.solegends.com/citcat9x3/c92408epicchaoswarmachine-02.htm) and Bloodship of Khorne (http://www.solegends.com/citcat94/cat1994021-01.htm). after all, Khorne loves his mass distruction almost as much as Orks do.

2) as for other warmachines, Hellhounds are as close as you are going to get to a Cauldron of Blood (http://www.solegends.com/citcat9x3/c92408epicchaoswarmachine-02.htm). and you might try (just for a laugh) Sentinals as Blood Slaughterers of Khorne (http://www.solegends.com/citcat9x3/c92402chaosspacemarines-02.htm). they're not very similar rules wise, but you could make a cool Khornate unit. also a Brass Scorpion in Apoc can hardly be ignored.

3) The commisars sounds like a good idea, as does a mastervox and vox caster in every unit, giving you a very disciplined army. they are not there just because they want to get paid (or at least not executed), they're there for the thrill of the fight, so they're unlikely to break.

4) if you're going down the shooty path then Iron Discipline and Sharpe Shooters are doctrines you might want to look into.

5) other non-khorne specific items, but ones i think he'd like, are the malcador and vulcan mega-bolter macherius. being not so large they are more helpful than a baneblade in a new army, but they can churn out a vast amount of fire power. just the thing. the basic rule of thumb is the more shots or the bigger the blast the better.

everything else you are likely to want to include will have to be 'borrowed' from other Codexes (CSM and Daemon) so are probably not worth thinking about right now.

Kriegsherr
01-11-2007, 13:56
Actually, I also don't think khorne was always as CC-Centric as he is today. And he was described as been very eager about martial honour on multiple occasions.

Altough I wouldn't really give a khornate follower a rapier. Don't get me wrong, I love rapiers (I do rapier-fencing, so I better would :) )... but its a civilians weapon not meant for the battlefield, it's not made for fighting against many foes, and while khornate followers might be also about honour and somesuch, I would see a rapier more as the weapon of a slaanesh warrior (think Lucius)...

Rapiers are for Duels (more a Slaanesh thing than Khorne in the fluff), they are fragile weapons that allow a very subtle, dancelike style of swordplay, and don't need much force to use.

I see hand-and-a-half swords, two handers or warswords more as khornate swords... they were seen as the knightly weapons, and remained the weapons of war even during the era of the rapier... maybe use basket-hilted swords or side-swords if you like the style of the rapier-hilts, but a thin long blade doesn't fits a Khornate warrior...

Nkari
01-11-2007, 14:34
One thing all incarnations of Khorne has in common are 4 things..

Skulls, Red, Black and Brass..

Let those be your mantra..

Dr Morbius
01-11-2007, 14:59
Dr. Morbis there is some fluff at least with epic that says that khorne is a martial god. Though he does not care from where the blood just that it flows. In fact there is something that says that if a khorne follower kill someone in cold blood and/or injustly khorne will kill him.

True that was in the Chaos Expansion for the 2nd Edition of Space Marine as Epic was called back then. This came much later (around 1991) than the SoD and was the first show up of this 'toned down' version. In my gaming group we all had a good laugh when we first read it.:p

Again, I'm not a fluff fanatic who says what this is all wrong. Far from it. Just wanted to point out that this is not the Khorne version of the RT era that was mentioned in the OP.

AdmiralDick
01-11-2007, 15:11
its easy to get the whole martial pride and honour confused. the truth of the matter is if you were seriously concerned with honour you wouldn't kill anyone. its more about pride. wanting to fight a worthy opponent. if you simply stab someone in the back, they are not a worthy opponent and you make yourself look weak. that is why khorne prefers open warfare. everyone can see every detail of what you have acheived. khorne wants his warriors to be the best and show up anyone stupid enough to challenge him or get in his way.

it should never have been this bizarre madness, because that in itself makes his followers look stupid and easy to kill (if you have big enough guns). if they were uncontrollable it should be because they all want to look the best, so they ignore orders that they think will not bring them glory.

another good reason to include voxes and commissars.