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Sgt Biffo
01-11-2007, 06:37
Is it just me or are DE incapable of delivering any sort of a touch up to an IG force?

FunkyCommissar
01-11-2007, 06:41
apparently you've never had a wych cult hit your lines and then proceed to utterly annihilate everything in combat?

Sgt Biffo
01-11-2007, 06:52
apparently you've never had a wych cult hit your lines and then proceed to utterly annihilate everything in combat?

Nope!

They're usually too busy getting cut to pieces in no-mans-land while entangled in the wreckage of their Raiders or getting a lesson in real violence from a chunky squad of Ogryns and a platoon of their less abhuman buddies.

Never had a Wytche unit on foot come anywhere near my lines as being pinned by nine mortars tends to hamper their progress some...:D

Imperialis_Dominatus
01-11-2007, 07:00
In the hands of a truly skilled DE player with a decent level of cover, DE are deadly. Incredibly deadly.

Vaktathi
01-11-2007, 07:12
If your Wyches are not making into combat, then something is wrong. They should generally be able to burst out of a portal, move 12", disembark, fleet, and assault, giving you an average 21" assault range from the portal which should generally be about 12-20" up the board letting you get into your opponents deployment zone or just about anywhere else you want to go.

While I personally find that my Guard army does much better against DE most MEQ armies can dream of doing, I usually end up with a couple tanks and a bunch of empty Chimera's with 0 infantry left on the board. Wyches tear through guardsmen like they dont exist. While Ogryns would make a great anti-Wych unit, they are very rarely taken ($17 each now :cries:) as they arent good against more common opponents like Assault Marines. I don't think I've ever personally seen them fielded, I know I don't field them (although they don't really fit into a mechanized army very well either)


All in all however, I think IG are a much tougher fight for DE than Space Marines or Chaos (which a well designed and well led DE army will generally rip to pieces just about every time). Don't get stuck in a shooting war with Guard, get in close, and get into CC.

Snipafist
01-11-2007, 07:13
Depending on how skilled an eldar player is in general and how much they slanted their list to deal with marines, it can be fairly tough to deal with a skilled guard player, as anti-marine eldar lists are packing a lot of points into weapons that are overkill against guard, and don't have a lot of models that can really resist mass concentrated firepower in return. On the other hand, I'd generally say that any army without enough mobility to really outflank or melee rush IG is in for some trouble, as Guard do positional combat extremely well, even if they're not very maneuverable.

The Gothic Me
01-11-2007, 07:28
For a while when I played guard the only other person in my area played DE, and they actually make an interesting opponent. Small maneuvers make a big difference; a basilisk shell in the right spot or some auto cannon shots into their raiders can really ruin their day, as can ogryns who are excellent against DE if nothing else. On the other hand, a squad or two of raiders with splinter cannons or a group of mandrakes or a dark lance into your leman russ will really screw you over. But what was most interesting was the Dark eldar lord and it's incubi, those things could rampage through half my army if they got in there right, but sometimes that die without killing a thing.

Hicks
01-11-2007, 07:40
I agree and my DE playing friend too. While DE can make a mess out of any MEQ army, they really struggle against hordes of lower quality troops. There are normally very few things that can get to me on the first and second turn when I play with my IG (and no we don't play on planet bowling ball). Those units that actually make it that fast can't survive waves after waves of angry guards, as for the rest of his army... let's say that even fleet of foot isn't enough to save you once your raider has crashed in front of a platoon.

p.s. What is it with all those rescent posts that claim that anyone who can win against DE only managed to do so because of a monkey brained opponent?

Deadmanwade
01-11-2007, 07:42
I've only played IG against DE twice. Both times I thought I had it in the bag after the first two turns and then some DE made it to my lines. Both times I was left with an immobilised Leman Russ and some shattered hopes.
For the extra couple of points the increased BS, WS, and I make a LOT of difference vs the guard.

Admiral Samuel Eden
01-11-2007, 07:42
Face a well played DE army and then tell me they can't hurt guardsmen. DE played well will rip anything to shreds. How do you plan on killing 11 Raiders each with a squad of either warriors or whyches and 3 squads of 10 jetbike crashing into your lines. Before you say you'll shoot them down before they do it might be worth reminding you that they have a potentiona 42 inches of charge!!!

NerdyOgre254
01-11-2007, 07:48
Dark Eldar give me nightmares.
If you just look at the codex, there doesn't seem to be too much going for them. but on the field your mind can just light up with the possibilities.

the1stpip
01-11-2007, 09:19
The only Guard that give me nightmares are the ones with three Basilisks. I rely on only revealing my Ravagers to the unit I am shooting. Having three pie plates that don't to see me puts a real dent in my day.

But that doesn't mean I can't beat them though.

catbarf
01-11-2007, 11:31
If the DE player can't get his Wyches into combat, then he's an idiot. Once they get there, there is nothing in the Codex that can stop them short of orbital bombardment. Even Ogryns have difficulty unless they're at a massive advantage (of course, that's how it always works for them...).

Bloodknight
01-11-2007, 12:08
Agreed. I am playing my Wych Cult in a league (atm 1K points) at the moment and the last game I played against IG the IG player had nothing left after turn 4 while I lost 10 warriors (who fled) and two wyches. It was a seek and destroy mission and the game ended 1865 to 175 (1000 points for the enemy army, 40 slaves, and 825 for my own troops. 75 of the points the IG player got were from my Archite who wounded himself with his drug dispenser). :D

It's a matter of using cover well.

Polonius
01-11-2007, 12:57
IG are a tougher draw for Dark Eldar than pretty much anybody. IF the IG are played cunningly, the matchup comes down to the quality of the gents playing. The key is to deploy knowing that they'll hit your lines, and hope to sacrifice a few squads early on to catch some DE units in rapid fire range.

That said, just saying DE is a broad term: DE Airforces play very differntly from webway armies.

Also, this is going to sound self evident, but first turn is a massive advantage for the IG player.

mickart70
01-11-2007, 13:06
yes first turn is the make or brake move with my IG

Sgt Biffo
02-11-2007, 10:53
While Ogryns would make a great anti-Wych unit, they are very rarely taken


Even Ogryns have difficulty unless they're at a massive advantage (of course, that's how it always works for them...).

Having an advantage (no matter how massive) is up to leadership of an army and its composition. This is why I originally stated that I send a large (usually ten strong) squad of Ogryns and a full platoon against a squad of Wytches (or any DE squad for that matter).

You invariably win and always out number you opponent (hurray for 3 wounds an Ogryn) striking at all Eldars achillies heel- their leadership with out committing your entire army to the spearhead.

Put Xeno-hunters on the spear head troops (still 3+ to hit a Wytch regardless of less WS) and flank the spearhead with Sentinels (virtually invulnerable to DE troops in C-C and Multi Lasers can easily touch up a Raider) and a Hellhound or two.


In the hands of a truly skilled DE player... DE are deadly. Incredibly deadly.


Face a well played DE army... DE played well will rip anything to shreds.

Hardly a valid argument to support DE. Remove DE for both of those statements and replace it with any army you care to think of and it remains true... And what if both IG and DE players are excellent?


If the DE player can't get his Wyches into combat, then he's an idiot.


If your Wyches are not making into combat, then something is wrong.

As the old saying goes; "Your opponent can only play as well as you let him." Perhaps you should be complementing the player who denies the Wytches their C-C instead of reprimanding the Wytch player.

catbarf
02-11-2007, 11:31
Having an advantage (no matter how massive) is up to leadership of an army and its composition. This is why I originally stated that I send a large (usually ten strong) squad of Ogryns and a full platoon against a squad of Wytches (or any DE squad for that matter).

Sure, you'll win- because you have four or five times greater points' worth than them...


You invariably win and always out number you opponent (hurray for 3 wounds an Ogryn) striking at all Eldars achillies heel- their leadership with out committing your entire army to the spearhead.

...and then the rest of your army gets butchered because 1/4 of it is going after a single squad of Wyches. No, thanks. The objective is to be able to win with as few troops committed as possible, so they can be ready for other attacks.

Besides, he must be retarded if he lets you catch his Wyches with Ogryns. He must be horrible if the Ogryns manage to win an equal points fight.

The fact that he doesn't seem to get his Wyches into combat shows that he's a bad player. As mentioned before, Wyches can be in combat in one turn.


Put Xeno-hunters on the spear head troops (still 3+ to hit a Wytch regardless of less WS) and flank the spearhead with Sentinels (virtually invulnerable to DE troops in C-C and Multi Lasers can easily touch up a Raider) and a Hellhound or two.

The fact that you need three walkers, a tank (or two), and a full platoon of highly trained troopers to kill a single squad of 8 or so half-nude druggies is pretty pathetic. You will win that fight. However, if the DE player has any sense at all he'll simply attack everything you have at once, rather than mass a single unit. If he'd win before, he'll certainly win now after 1/4 of your army is out of the picture.


Hardly a valid argument to support DE. Remove DE for both of those statements and replace it with any army you care to think of and it remains true... And what if both IG and DE players are excellent?

He's not arguing. He's saying it often comes down to player skill.


As the old saying goes; "Your opponent can only play as well as you let him." Perhaps you should be complementing the player who denies the Wytches their C-C instead of reprimanding the Wytch player.

You're using Ogryns against them, and you're somehow able to swamp a single squad of Wyches with around 500pts of troops. It must be the Wytch player's fault.

Did you start this thread just to argue? The common consensus here is that DE are the Guard's worst nightmare. Is this going to be more flamebait like the Ogryn Love thread?

dcikgyurt
02-11-2007, 11:48
I've never had a problem fighting Dark Eldar. I've watched wychs bounch of havoc squads. I've seen a Lord with incubi retinue get eaten by a unit of furies. ETC.

DE are just like everybody else, You can beat them with good tactics and good army comp.

Captain Micha
02-11-2007, 13:28
Even if guard were De bane. Then good. The Ig need someone to be their whipping boy

that being said, from what I've heard on the internet, De are an advanced army. Ig are too. (Whether anyone likes to admit it or not) It comes down to player skill, and luck. Always remember Luck is -always- a factor in 40k

bhusus
02-11-2007, 14:34
Did you start this thread just to argue? The common consensus here is that DE are the Guard's worst nightmare. Is this going to be more flamebait like the Ogryn Love thread?

Weird I was thinking the exact same thing when I read your post...its called a discussion not an argument and posts like yours don't do anything to help the matter at all - it seems like your begging for retaliation and its not necessary. Whether the DE or the IG are better armies comes down to army composition, player tactics and as Captain Micha mentioned LUCK - my brother has great ideas with the DE that always get ruined with multiple 1s where 2+s are necessary and boxcars on leadership checks - not a whole lot to be done about that. More importantly there is a great deal of variation in DE armies (especially since the Wych Cult rules) as well as IG armies - neither army can claim superiority with so many potentially different lists.

Hicks
02-11-2007, 16:49
Don't you understand people, the IG can't beat DE. Any victory against them should be considered a freak accident, caused by one-in-a-millenia planet alignement. Guys on the internet said so, it has to be true!

Now if you'll excuse me, I have to go call all the DE players who ever lost retards.

:rolleyes:

P.S.:rolleyes:

TrooperTino
02-11-2007, 17:06
DE are the worst enemy a guard player can fight against! The only case I can imagine to beat them would be on a table without ANY cover and 48" nomansland between IG and DE. Played against DE twice, and it was horrible... so many dead guardsmen in such a short time... still waking up at night screaming "Nooooooo!" when dreaming about that day!

Infallius_Daemonium
02-11-2007, 19:24
I play Guard with WH allies, mostly Sisters of Battle, and while my gunline and vehicles can butcher DE, once they get into combat the only thing that stops them from steamrolling through all my gaurdsmen, despite their carapace, is my sisters and their characters. But then attrition can kill them off eventually.

It's really a no brainer- IG is a primarily ranged based army, and DE can be played as a very fast and manuverable CC army with high I. Their low S doesn't hurt them vs Guard as well. I wouldn't say that if I fight DE I'm going to lose, but I would say there could be a tough battle ahead.

catbarf
02-11-2007, 19:39
Weird I was thinking the exact same thing when I read your post...its called a discussion not an argument and posts like yours don't do anything to help the matter at all - it seems like your begging for retaliation and its not necessary. Whether the DE or the IG are better armies comes down to army composition, player tactics and as Captain Micha mentioned LUCK - my brother has great ideas with the DE that always get ruined with multiple 1s where 2+s are necessary and boxcars on leadership checks - not a whole lot to be done about that. More importantly there is a great deal of variation in DE armies (especially since the Wych Cult rules) as well as IG armies - neither army can claim superiority with so many potentially different lists.

I'm not trying to claim superiority, I'm just saying that 10 Ogryns plus two Hellhounds and a squad of Sentinels is hardly a fair fight, but which Sgt. Biffo seems to be using as a measurement for the efficiency of Wyches. And it irks me that he was responding hotly towards posts that weren't even trying to argue.

Bloodknight
02-11-2007, 20:14
You sure should win that fight because after all that is about 600 points of guard versus less than 150 points of wyches...
But then the idea is basically flawed. Hellhounds cannot shoot into close combat and have a weapon range of only slightly more than the assault range of wyches. Sentinels are gunbait, too. It's not as if not every worthwhile gun in the DE army weren't S7 blast or S8...;)

@Hicks: both armies are advanced armies. Assumed both players are equal in skill and none is incredibly unlucky it will be an uphill struggle for the Guard, because the DE codex is simply stronger and more advantageous, ie you get better stuff for your points than the IG guy ( I play both and both for well over 8 years). Let's face it - a DE squad is as good as IG veterans and gets two lances for less than the cost of a lascannon.

Hicks
02-11-2007, 20:46
@Hicks: both armies are advanced armies. Assumed both players are equal in skill and none is incredibly unlucky it will be an uphill struggle for the Guard, because the DE codex is simply stronger and more advantageous, ie you get better stuff for your points than the IG guy (I play both and both for well over 8 years). Let's face it - a DE squad is as good as IG veterans and gets two lances for less than the cost of a lascannon.

I 100% agree with you. I was just joking about the posts claiming that DE players can't lose unless they are idiots. Pretty much every battle is an uphill one with IG. Personally, I find the Tau to be the hardest opponent with DE a very close second, but hey that's just me. I don't play to win at all cost, I chose the steel legion because the models and fluff appealed to me. Being told that I could never win because I own a "bad" army, that I find stupid.

catbarf
02-11-2007, 21:15
Dark Eldar can be right nasty- not just because of the rules, but since they're relatively rare many players don't know what to expect.

victorpofa
02-11-2007, 21:19
Assuming the first post is not flamebait, the DE player did not use Webway Portals for the raider mounted Wyches. For shame.

rintinglen
02-11-2007, 21:36
I can only state what I see, and I see very few DE armies, but the only IG vs DE fight I ever saw was a pure slaughter for three turns, that ended when the DE ran out of men. The IG player went first, blew up 2 raiders and stunned a third on the 1st turn with indirect fire. The surviving DE charged forward, blew up a Leman Russ, killed three or four infantry squads, but got blasted to shreds. More DE slaughtered more guards men, but each time a 150 odd point squad of wyches was traded for a 90 point squad of guardsmen, the DE were taking the short end of the stick. At the end of turn 3, there were no scoring DE units left, and only a handful of IG ones.
If that was the average game, then I think DE and IG are one of the better matchups out there.

Bloodknight
02-11-2007, 21:52
The IG player went first, blew up 2 raiders and stunned a third on the 1st turn with indirect fire.

No webway against Guard? Why would you do that? The indirect fire units should not even get a shot at Raiders before the assault due tp the large minimum range.

the1stpip
02-11-2007, 22:43
Assuming the first post is not flamebait, the DE player did not use Webway Portals for the raider mounted Wyches. For shame.

Why? I have never used a WWP, and in two years, I have lost three games with my Dark Eldar.

They are not necessary.

victorpofa
02-11-2007, 23:43
Why? I have never used a WWP, and in two years, I have lost three games with my Dark Eldar.

They are not necessary.

Against Basilisks they are. You can do well without them with sufficient cover, but indirect fire can be murder (literally) even with plenty of cover.

Captain Micha
03-11-2007, 13:19
Assuming of course the basilisks fire doesn't just scatter and miss the raider entirely....

Sgt Biffo
03-11-2007, 13:53
Sure, you'll win- because you have four or five times greater points' worth than them...

Yes...???


...and then the rest of your army gets butchered because 1/4 of it is going after a single squad of Wyches. No, thanks. The objective is to be able to win with as few troops committed as possible, so they can be ready for other attacks.

Wow... It sounds so easy... and yet its never happened that way...:confused:

Maybe you like to sit on your thumbs and hold everything for an all out attack (a virtually certainty with a tactic like that) and try to meet it with minimum resistance (no wonder you fear DE so much). I prefer to be on the offensive, gain the initiative as "the best defense is a good offense"... and other assorted cliche's.

Use a spearhead (that does not always have Ogryns in it) to divide his force and while he is making a bid to deal with it (in an all out assault on the back line or what ever it was you were saying) circle around and pincer another third of his army in overwhelming points worth of Guard. "Divide and conquer"

Sure its using a sledge hammer to crack an egg but the egg stays cracked! And after all isn't the IG supposed to be the "Hammer of the Emperor"?


He's not arguing. He's saying it often comes down to player skill.

Perhaps you should let them speak for themselves.

But if thats the case, then wouldn't it follow that saying DE are able to win against IG more often because DE players are all superior in skill compared to IG players? That would have to be one of the broadest generalizations I've encountered in 40k!


Is this going to be more flamebait like the Ogryn Love thread?

Sounds like someone has an axe to grind...:rolleyes:

From memory I was never censored for flaming or baiting on that thread, in spite of the frequent moderators intervention on it. If you have issues with how they moderate threads on their forum perhaps you should take it up with them (and stick to the the topic of this thread).


I'm not trying to claim superiority, I'm just saying that 10 Ogryns plus two Hellhounds and a squad of Sentinels is hardly a fair fight, but which Sgt. Biffo seems to be using as a measurement for the efficiency of Wyches.

Fair fights are an extremely rare occurrences on the 40k table top. Ensuring you never have to fight a "fair fight" means that you needn't worry about much-lauded units of any type- including, but not limited too, Wytches.

Its about the tactic not the units involved. You can wipe out entire units quickly while taking minimal losses compared to drawn out attrition of skirmishing evenly across your line with no real point of strength.

Your opponent will soon become acutely aware that the middle of their line is rapidly disappearing (though they must still make the distance to attack the rear) and at some point will have to counter it (and the sooner the better) with greater strength; relieving pressure on your own flanks so they can continue laying down cross fire or advance in a pincer move against a fraction of the opponents strength.


And it irks me that he was responding hotly towards posts that weren't even trying to argue.

Instead of taking up a personal grudge match bought over from an old thread, why didn't you just report the post and let the appropriate authorities deal with my posts? If they don't see fit to deal with what you consider to be a problem, you could always just put me your an ignore list.


You sure should win that fight because after all that is about 600 points of guard versus less than 150 points of wyches...
But then the idea is basically flawed. Hellhounds cannot shoot into close combat and have a weapon range of only slightly more than the assault range of wyches.

Hmm... Perhaps I didn't explain the strategy properly. The idea is to drive a wedge into the DE line. The Sentinels and Hellhounds are not there so much to go into the forward attack and to screen the sides of the spear head and give crossfire to the rear gun line.


Sentinels are gunbait, too. It's not as if not every worthwhile gun in the DE army weren't S7 blast or S8...;)

Sorry there are too many double negatives in that for me to follow what you mean. Could you restate it please?


No webway against Guard? Why would you do that? The indirect fire units should not even get a shot at Raiders before the assault due tp the large minimum range.

I find the problem with the WWP is the same as any army that has a large contingent of reserve rolling: Pinning victory on rolling the right numbers at the right time is more akin to gambling than tactics I know, I know... all battles are a gamble: to a certain degree. This is why reconnaissance, technology and intelligence plays such a vital role on the modern (and even historic) battle field in eliminating as many variables as possible.

A similar thing can be said about the infamous table length assaults of Wytches in Raiders. Hoping to roll up a 12" assault on the combat drugs table and 6" for fleet of foot is not exactly a sound basis for tactics (though one could call it the "crossed fingers and happy thoughts" tactic:D)

I also find indirect fire of Basilisks to be quite over rated for exactly the reason you've pointed out. They're great for long range slugging matches, but thats about it. A Leman Russ of almost any type can pack more fire power and be relatively more resilient, making it a far more flexible option for marginally more points.

However the Mortar can be effective (and reasonably cheap) when used en mass.

Hicks
03-11-2007, 16:38
No webway against Guard? Why would you do that? The indirect fire units should not even get a shot at Raiders before the assault due tp the large minimum range.

Deploying the bassies in the corners to target raiders or bikes on the opposite side of the table gets around that problem. However, depending on the terrain setup, this could only work if the IG player gets first turn. Because if the bassies aren't hidden themselves, they will suffer the same fate as any other tank facing the DE first shooting phase----> 30 darklance hits to the face.

Grazzy
03-11-2007, 16:45
DE can beat Guard. Well played DE are always deadly, and are more effective against MEQ's, but they are still quite good against guard if they have WWP and a tiny bit of luck to get them into combat.

catbarf
03-11-2007, 17:14
Fair fights are an extremely rare occurrences on the 40k table top. Ensuring you never have to fight a "fair fight" means that you needn't worry about much-lauded units of any type- including, but not limited too, Wytches.

When you commit a quarter of your army against one unit to ensure that it is not a fair fight, suddenly every other unit in his army benefits from an unfair fight. Once you commit 600pts of troops to the middle, he can waltz all over your flanks- after all, he has just under 2,000pts ready to be committed whereas you have 1400.

In fact, he has no reason to support his center. A simple tactic is to let you send the majority of your army straight for the middle, while he wipes out your flanks. Oops, you just got caught in a pincer.


Sorry there are too many double negatives in that for me to follow what you mean. Could you restate it please?

Every worthwhile gun in the DE armory will kill Sentinels, Chimeras, and Hellhounds by virtue of being S7 or S8.


A similar thing can be said about the infamous table length assaults of Wytches in Raiders. Hoping to roll up a 12" assault on the combat drugs table and 6" for fleet of foot is not exactly a sound basis for tactics (though one could call it the "crossed fingers and happy thoughts" tactic)

Nobody is counting on rolling sixes. They're taking the averages, showing them that most of the time they WILL be able to get straight into a combat- just like how you are using the averages to tell you that 600pts of Guard can beat 150pts of Wyches.

Bloodknight
03-11-2007, 22:58
That's what I wanted to say. Nobody else fields as disgustingly many S7 and S8 guns (and all S8 have the lance rule).

the1stpip
04-11-2007, 00:55
So the Dark Eldar have a lot of High Str weapons.

If you try to use DE like a Space Marine army, no matter how many Dark Lances you may have, you are still going to lose.

They require a little finesse than other armies. A well commanded force can beat any army, a poorly led army will beat itself.

But this is the same as any other army. I have enjoyed a lot of success against various opponents, and I am sure there are non DE players who have enjoyed success against Dark Eldar.

The original post was the biggest pile of doggy doings I have read in some time.

sabreu
04-11-2007, 02:40
Oh god, Dark Eldar have scarred the bejesus out of me everytime I've seen them. This is mostly because of how trashed I got the first time, not knowing what they can do. Somehow this is has created a subconscious feeling of impending doom that no other army can muster in me...

Sgt Biffo
04-11-2007, 02:46
In fact, he has no reason to support his center. A simple tactic is to let you send the majority of your army straight for the middle, while he wipes out your flanks. Oops, you just got caught in a pincer.

Perhaps... Though its yet to happen. Ensuring that the gun line is outside the average Raider rush range (just over 20" I believe Vaktathi was saying) makes the spearhead a lure for nice quick assault, and also allows time for all the Auto Cannons and Heavy Bolters in the flanks to have a crack at them if not.

What I find happens a lot is not so much a DE hoard descending on the IG like a fat kid on a cup cake, but a fragmented, entangled attack that has reached no where in any strength and who's gun line is constantly being pinned by Mortar fire.

Send a strong spear head out into the wreckage of an over extended, pinned and (those who survived tow rolls to be hit and a 5+ armour save) badly entangled Raider rush and its a turkey shoot.

If you get the first turn it becomes even more dire. And lets face it the Raider rush tactic relies heavily (though not entirely) on getting into C-C in the first phase of the first turn. Again this is more gambling than tactics.


Every worthwhile gun in the DE armory will kill Sentinels, Chimeras, and Hellhounds by virtue of being S7 or S8.

I've found Sentinels fall more often to Splinter Cannons.

Chimera's and Hellhounds go down about as fast as Leman Russ or even Landraiders to Dark Lances, but are far cheaper and about as effective (though a Hellhound is move effective against lightly armoured troops in cover). S7 can cut the mustard but you need a few hits for it to be effective.

Still it don't take a Sentinel long to make its points up.

One well placed Inferno Cannon burst will punch a big hole in any Eldar line (even if they have a 2+ cover save like Rangers), and will get 2 hits on an open topped Raider. Lets not forget about the Heavy Bolter.


Nobody is counting on rolling sixes. They're taking the averages, showing them that most of the time they WILL be able to get straight into a combat- just like how you are using the averages to tell you that 600pts of Guard can beat 150pts of Wyches.

=>


Before you say you'll shoot them down before they do it might be worth reminding you that they have a potentiona 42 inches of charge!!!

I'm not real sure how he got that figure (12"Raider move+ 3" disembark+ 6" Fleet+ 12" Assault+ 9" ? maybe he's including deployment zone?), but the average charge being 21" is fairly easy to avoid such problems in setup. You just don't use all the deployment area your given. This makes a first turn assault lucky as opposed to certain.

And if the luck doesn't turn up and you haven't shot and are sitting a little more than half a foot away from rapid fire weapons or heaven forbid an assault from Ogryns I believe this earns you the moniker of "Retard" according to some points of veiw on this thread.

Sometimes screening troops can work to hold and then have a counter punch if you like to fight defensively. I've found a Command Squad with a Commissar and Preacher good against Tyranids in this role.


Oh god, Dark Eldar have scarred the bejesus out of me everytime I've seen them. This is mostly because of how trashed I got the first time, not knowing what they can do. Somehow this is has created a subconscious feeling of impending doom that no other army can muster in me...

Yeah you can get a bit gun shy from a good thrashing. I had a similar experience with Tyranids against my World Eaters army.

sabreu
04-11-2007, 02:49
Yeah you can get a bit gun shy from a good thrashing. I had a similar experience with Tyranids against my World Eaters army.

:p Yeah, I guess it just boils down to whose the first to utterly embarass you with a massacred result!

Sgt Biffo
04-11-2007, 03:06
:p Yeah, I guess it just boils down to whose the first to utterly embarass you with a massacred result!

A good friend an I have avowed never to play IG vs BT ever again because it seems to go either way each time we play, so we never get a good fight.

Chem-Dog
04-11-2007, 03:35
As an IG player I have to say we have a slightly difficult time of it (not moaning, honest :)) we're the only army who get no save against 99% of weapons in the game (the other 0.1% are in our own armoury!) whilst 99% of units we face get a save against our basic weapon. As far as 40K is concerned Guardsmen can't even hope to commit suicide with any level of reliability (unless they're holding a Plasmagun ;))



With regard to the DE list, it's about the oldest unamended list in the game, they need a little tweaking BUT I cant see how the legion of raider mounted warriors would have too much trouble.

FabulousRex
04-11-2007, 03:43
I simply think that your experiences with are with an inexperienced DE player. To whit:

-Backing up out of 1st turn assault range means you are horribly bunched up, and any single assault unit that reaches you will bounce from unit to unit. You'll never get your mythical Rapid Fire out because you'll be so close that you can't stop the Wyches from bouncing up into your lines.

-Relying on 1 turn of Bassie fire to win the game is the most common crutch of a bad IG player that I've ever seen. Unless you are fielding enough to knock out -all- of his skimmers, you won't get to fire them more than once. And guess what, you can only get 3. DE can easily field 7-8 raiders with good assault troops.

-And by far the biggest mental mistake you seem to be making is the assumption that a DE army will consist of 2-3 Raiders loaded with assault troops at 1000+pts. This ain't the Marines, son. A well-timed attack from your flanks that minimize incoming fire is the hallmark of the DE. IG have it particularly bad because their firepower is static, direct-fire, and encased in fleshy bits.

Sgt Biffo
04-11-2007, 10:26
First of all I'm going to assume this is for me...


I simply think that your experiences with are with an inexperienced DE player.

Players. Tournaments, clubs and social.


-Backing up out of 1st turn assault range means you are horribly bunched up, and any single assault unit that reaches you will bounce from unit to unit.

Bunching up is an old tactic I learn from an old Ork opponent. I called the "Brick and Left hook" tactic. Modified for Guard its more like the "Brick and Sucker Punch" tactic. Bunch up and have smaller area to defend, can concentrate fire power and have a hard hitting close range strike to counter any assault.


You'll never get your mythical Rapid Fire out because you'll be so close that you can't stop the Wyches from bouncing up into your lines.

Just did it today (though with CSM's). The only bouncing was the burning Raider. The Wytches (there isn't many who can survive 4+to hit with re-rolls for automatic wounds and a 6+ armour save) didn't do anything except lie there entangled and cop it sweet.


-Relying on 1 turn of Bassie fire to win the game is the most common crutch of a bad IG player that I've ever seen. Unless you are fielding enough to knock out -all- of his skimmers, you won't get to fire them more than once. And guess what, you can only get 3. DE can easily field 7-8 raiders with good assault troops.

I totally agree with you and have said so here:


I also find indirect fire of Basilisks to be quite over rated for exactly the reason you've pointed out. They're great for long range slugging matches, but thats about it. A Leman Russ of almost any type can pack more fire power and be relatively more resilient, making it a far more flexible option for marginally more points.


-And by far the biggest mental mistake you seem to be making is the assumption that a DE army will consist of 2-3 Raiders loaded with assault troops at 1000+pts. This ain't the Marines, son. A well-timed attack from your flanks that minimize incoming fire is the hallmark of the DE. IG have it particularly bad because their firepower is static, direct-fire, and encased in fleshy bits.

Talk about assumptions.:D Thats pretty much all this point is. Read the other posts of mine on the thread about how to deal with DE close quarters, viable indirect support and utilization of mobile armoured fire power for the answer as I'd pretty much be double posting if I summarized it here.

I also find being calling some one in their mid 30's "son" is some what condescending.

the1stpip
04-11-2007, 12:23
It's a shame you live on the other side of the world, as I would show you what a real Dark Eldar army is like, rather than the noobs you must be playing.

Not having a codex for a long time is a bonus for the DE. Like other codexes, it hasn't been dummed down (*cough*Chaos*cough*), and are a very nasty list.

True, a lot of units are not very good, but a few (Warriors, Wyches, Incubi, Raiders and Ravagers) are the best out there, and any DE player with an ounce of sense will hide their Raiders behind building and woods (being area terrain, they count as size three, and therefore you cannot shoot anything behind them) during set up, and during their approaches.

It is true, that a lot of Dark Eldar attacks turn up bitty and disorganised, and sometimes it is difficult to do otherwise, due to terrain placement, but do not diss the DE as being a crap army. They are very certainly not.

catbarf
04-11-2007, 12:54
Perhaps... Though its yet to happen.

What I find happens a lot is not so much a DE hoard descending on the IG like a fat kid on a cup cake, but a fragmented, entangled attack that has reached no where in any strength

If you get the first turn it becomes even more dire.

I think you must have inexperienced opponents. These things SHOULD happen and you SHOULD have at least some difficulty against DE.


I'm not real sure how he got that figure (12"Raider move+ 3" disembark+ 6" Fleet+ 12" Assault+ 9" ? maybe he's including deployment zone?), but the average charge being 21" is fairly easy to avoid such problems in setup. You just don't use all the deployment area your given. This makes a first turn assault lucky as opposed to certain.

Not if set up correctly. Besides, through judicial use of cover one can be in combat on turn two without having been shot at all. The point he was making is that you have a POTENTIAL charge of 42". On average you will have 36.5" (Raider move 12" + disembark 3" + fleet 3.5" + charge 6" + deployment zone 12"), which is more than enough to get into melee, especially when you throw in the enemy deployment zone of 12". So, you can threaten enemy units no matter where they are on turn 1. If that doesn't work, you can throw down a webway, let them kill your 40pt Wych squad, and then have your troops start streaming out right in front of his lines. There is no way to keep them out of combat once that happens.


And if the luck doesn't turn up and you haven't shot and are sitting a little more than half a foot away from rapid fire weapons or heaven forbid an assault from Ogryns I believe this earns you the moniker of "Retard" according to some points of veiw on this thread.

Yes. It does. Because it is virtually impossible for this situation to occur unless you're a bad DE player.


Sometimes screening troops can work to hold and then have a counter punch if you like to fight defensively. I've found a Command Squad with a Commissar and Preacher good against Tyranids in this role.

Some people have tried this. When your command squad is 200+ points, it will have a hard time making its points back against things as cheap as Wyches (who are still capable of killing the command squad). Besides, along with Ogryns, Commissars and Preachers are rather overpriced. The best tactic for dealing with melee troops is to let them wipe out your squad, so they're stuck out in the open. Then you blast them with every gun in the army.

Biffo, your experiences seem to be the exception. I think the players in your group need to practice, and then you'll see what a well-commanded DE army can do. Regardless, almost all the people here have disagreed with your opening statement, and I don't think you can argue them into submission.

Sgt Biffo
04-11-2007, 23:06
It's a shame you live on the other side of the world, as I would show you what a real Dark Eldar army is like, rather than the noobs you must be playing.

In deed. If you ever take your army on an antipodean adventure PM me for a game.


Like other codexes, it hasn't been dummed down (*cough*Chaos*cough*), and are a very nasty list.

Him Chos codux not make dum. Chos is's but good!


...but do not diss the DE as being a crap army. They are very certainly not.

No certainly not. I've seen them take the hurtin' stick to many an army, just never the IG.


I think you must have inexperienced opponents. These things SHOULD happen and you SHOULD have at least some difficulty against DE.

Biffo, your experiences seem to be the exception. I think the players in your group need to practice, and then you'll see what a well-commanded DE army can do.

More like people in my state (and a few interstate opponents too).

I do have difficulty against DE, just not with my IG army!?! I guess it must be an exception:confused: (though there have been a few who have agreed with me).


The best tactic for dealing with melee troops is to let them wipe out your squad, so they're stuck out in the open. Then you blast them with every gun in the army.

Perhaps this is ideal. More ideal would be to not let them get there in the first place.

I still maintain that hammering a couple of units into annihilation, with vastly superior force, every round is a valid tactic as I've seen its merits and have seen these merits time and again with several different armies... but I suppose thats for another thread...

catbarf
04-11-2007, 23:30
In deed. If you ever take your army on an antipodean adventure PM me for a game.

Try Vassal.


I still maintain that hammering a couple of units into annihilation, with vastly superior force, every round is a valid tactic as I've seen its merits and have seen these merits time and again with several different armies... but I suppose thats for another thread...

It does work, it just isn't the be-all-end-all. After all, you don't have a vastly superior force- hammering one enemy only gives the others a free ride. I prefer to attack everything right off the bat, and use Torrent Of Fire to pick off leaders and heavy weapon troopers.

Champsguy
05-11-2007, 02:25
Any army can beat any other army. Except Inquisition, they suck.

DE can be very nasty, but there are ways to beat 'em. One nice way to do it is to stay in cover, leave enough space between your squads so that they can't sweep from unit to unit, and have a powerful counter-assault unit ready to go. The problem I've always seen DE have against IG is that there's always another mortar squad somewhere. There's always another heavy weapon squad. There's so much firepower that even if you get six wych squads into HTH, that just means there'll be some dead guardsmen, and shortly following, there'll be six dead wych squads.

Anyone who sings the praises of the DE (i.e., "they're so nasty, if they lose then the player is an idiot") doesn't realize that often, good players can play armies BESIDES the Dark Eldar. DE are usually designed to kill MEQ, and so they have a strong advantage. But it's really scary when a Marine (or IG) force is designed to kill DE.

EDIT: Oh, and the new Ork Dex is gonna slaughter DE. Slaughter.

Sgt Biffo
05-11-2007, 11:58
Try Vassal.

Which part of Australia is he in, 'cause its a damn big place (we've got a mountain range in one state that is wider than the U.S).


...and use Torrent Of Fire to pick off leaders and heavy weapon troopers.

A vastly overlooked rule that is seeing a bit of a renaissance in my social gaming group.


The problem I've always seen DE have against IG is that there's always another mortar squad somewhere. There's always another heavy weapon squad.

There almost no where on an IG line you can't find a good half dozen heavy weapons.

The most trouble I've had with DE wasn't a Raider rush but 3x15 Warrior foot slogger squads with 2x Splinter Cannons + 2xShredders and 2x10 Scourge Squads with 4xSplinter Cannons. They could go toe to toe in fire power with anything infantry (I saw them gun down 5 Terminators in a single round!). The Achilles heel of the army was the guy had all his anti tank stuff on Ravagers so after they went down my Leman Russ could ride rough-shod over them with virtual impunity.

Imperialis_Dominatus
05-11-2007, 12:03
Torrent of fire... in my opinion the squad needs to be fairly shredded in the first place to make it work, or small. I can see it happening on an IG Command Squad with double tap bolters fairly easily, but anything MEQ and it's gonna be tougher. Remember, the ToF must come from a single enemy unit.