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sainthale1988
01-11-2007, 14:50
Right. there are a lot of threads on how amazing the new high elves are, esp regarding always striking first in combat, some insane caracters, strong magic etc. There has also been some scatered looks at how to combat the latest edition of the 'master race' (as many yanks seem to regard them), however this has been haphazzard and uncoridinated. Thus i am calling this little think tank in an effort to deside some 'anti posh point eared, blue bath robe wearing toff' docrines.

Naturaly the lack of numbers and low T and AS imidiatly draws all are minds to shooting. black poweder esp (S4 -1 AS, ready, present FIRE!) and the ineviatable simply chuck magic missiles at them. but we need more than this! any sugesstions comments bright ideas?

Prince Sairion
01-11-2007, 19:07
If I were planning on killing my own Elves . . . which occasionally I do without planning, I would get to them as quickly as possible.

They attack first every time, but they are still (give or take +1attack here or there) a very similar force. Going toe to toe with any HE unit (except SMs) in a one on one fight is still pretty much the same.

And HE suck at one on one fights.

I'd aim to overpower the flanks and condense them into a brawl. Game over.

Malorian
01-11-2007, 19:13
When it comes to combat HE always goes with large blocks. This means you'll have more units. Use this to your advantage and setup failed charged and counter charges.

In my last game I faced a unit worth 800 points (black guard for DE with super lord), and all I did was bait charge with one unit of saurus and counter assault with two more. Normally I would have been crushed one on one... so that's why you gang up and take away their ranks. This is even more obvious when it comes to their spear blocks.

Also it will be more important to swamp one side. Those big blocks don't move all that fast when they have to turn and help out their buddies getting killed on the other side. This is helped when you have some cheap fast cav, or a small unit that would threaten there flanks if the move without due caution.

Cragspyder
01-11-2007, 21:09
One word: Chariots.

Impact hits go before everything, even 'ASF'. This allows you to brutalize the front rank with some S 5 or 6 attacks (or 4, in the case of poor TK, though they are more likely to get a higher number of hits then other chariots), thus reducing the number of Elves that get to 'strike first'. As with all multi-wound models it will also be difficult to prevent the horses and crew from striking as the Elves will have to kill the whole model to prevent attacks, made even more difficult due to less return attacks. The chariots will need to be supported as usual but I feel they will be a great tool against Speed of Asuryan.

Also, I believe the new High Elves don't have much S 7 options available to them, which makes the chariots more survivable.

They are a great support unit and I think any army with the ability to take one cheaply should do so. So, Tomb Kings, Chaos (Mortals/Beast), Orcs + Goblins, Dark Elves, and High Elves are covered for this support option. A couple of races have the ability to take an expensive chariot-like option (Lizardmen, Vampire Counts) which might come in handy if your army is themed like that. Taking a Stegadon or Black Coach might not be a great choice for other matchups, true... but keep in mind that both of the armies above are usually know for their magical prowess, which gives them another option against ASF.

This leaves Empire, Dwarves, Wood Elves, Skaven, Brettonians and Ogre Kingdoms without chariot options (War Altar/STANK and Bull Charge aside). Of these, the first four have phenomenal shooting phases, and the Brets have 4+ Armour and 5+ Wards versus Swordmasters and even better versus lighter troops (in addition to some cheap shooting if they so wish).

This leaves Ogre Kingdoms screwed for options, as usual :)

Malorian
01-11-2007, 21:19
Don't make my ogres angry...

-ogres can shoot
-ogres can redirect (gnoblars)
-ogres can smash

Kahadras
01-11-2007, 22:06
My plan is fairly simple. Shoot the Dragon with my cannon. Deploy plenty of Pistoliers and run around annoying the heck out of my opponant. HBVG's will deal with any infantry that gets near my battleline. Use my Magic to try to negate or limit his. I'll try to avoid engaging his stuff as much as possible with my block units untill I have a good enough advantage not to have to rely on combat kills to swing the combat in my favour.

Kahadras

Empyrium
02-11-2007, 00:35
How to beat high elves... In all honesty? I'd go and try to make my list as perfectly balanced as possible. It seems counter intuitive, I guess, but hear me out first.

High elves can be tooled up to be nearly completely immune to any given single type or so of attacks, meaning that even your chariots and extreme shooting armies will be quickly rendered useless. However, their major weakness is how expensive they are. Even taking MSU, each choice will still cost upwards of 100 points... and to be truly effective, most will be costing around 250 or so. So we have that 1), high elves are expensive.

Not that they are overpriced, by any means, but they are also specialized. By this, I mean that though HE core and rare choices are good, most of the power seems to reside in the special section. And in this section, we have 9 choices and a maximum (assuming 2000 points) of six choices. Each choice, again, is fairly specialized, with some being all out killing machines, some having insane speed, some being our skirmishers, some being entirely defensive, and some being giant can openers with with a slightly higher resistance to shooting. But the point is that at best, an HE player can 2/3rds of his special choices. take a second unit of anything, and its knocked down to about half. While what he does take will be good at what they are supposed to do, it will leave a decent sized tactical hole in his army that you can take advantage of. So we have 2), HE cant have it all. By taking a balanced list of infantry, calvary, war machines, skirmishers, etc..., you will have a unit or two that may become completely useless (I suggest using them for bait, or points denial), but the rest will cause obscene amounts of casualties on the unprepared HE player.

The same goes with disruptive tactics. Try to have a mix of them (shooting, magic, and psychology), because while the HE can again excel at repelling any one of those, they cant guard perfectly against all three. And, as an added bonus, as one starts to take its toll, the other two also become more effective. Therefore, 3) is that # 2 also applies to more disruptive elements.

I sort of view the new HE as the great equalizer... a specialized HE force will likely beat any other specialized force out there (gunlines, etc), but will in turn easily fall to more balanced lists. The only way for the HE to counter that is to build more balanced lists themselves, in which case games be decided by deployment, strategy, and a little bit of luck, like they are supposed to be.
Thank you for hearing me out, feel free to commence with the rabid tearing apart of my arguement now.

Crazy Harborc
02-11-2007, 03:40
Hit them in the front, flank and or rear on the same turn whenever possible. Stand off and shoot the heck out of them.

HE players have to roll dice just like all of their opponents. The more magic dice rolled, the higher the chances of snake eyes.

As mentioned you will likely have more units than a HE army. It will be easier for cheaper units to outnumber a HE unit. More ranks, a better rank bonus.

A Swordmaster unit hit in the flank will likely have less attacks than the attacking unit. If you hit them with a unit containing a hero, you'll have 5 attacks with any charge bonus you get. Maybe more, if the HE players rolls bad dice.;)

It's a game. It's for fun, not money. It's not a blood sport, it's not for keeps.

Ris
02-11-2007, 12:16
"Always hit" magic weapons make the elves high WS score redundant, leaving them to rely on their low toughness and armour saves to prevent wounds. A character with such a weapon could probably guarentee some victories alone.

Be wary of guardians, bladelords and keepers of the flame. Drop the 2+ armour save on a bladelord and with his WS6 S5 3A hes almost a hero choice in himself. A keeper of the flame although less damaging will be harder to kill than a bladelord on 2+/4+. Position valuable models carefully in the front rank

make swordmasters come to you. control which unit they charge to have lots of stand and shoot shots if possible.

attack lion chariots on the flanks - the lion steeds will not get their attacks

do not charge archers with fast cavalry :p

(btw im a high elf player, 3 editions running)

SilverWarlock
02-11-2007, 14:59
I'll be going with the balanced army idea

as long as your army has some shooting or high manoeuvrability you are completely fine. The only changes I can see to my lists is maybe the addition of a chariot or two to my units, or a better use for spears (10 clanrats with spears are much more of a pain to them than the same without those spears). Really ASF doesnt change much for my lists other than not throwing very light units at archers in the front.

eleveninches
02-11-2007, 15:08
One word: SHOOTING

mav1971
02-11-2007, 15:11
I just like how so many people are worried about High Elves now that they have the strike 1st ability. My plan just like when I faced a warhammer race I never played against before. Make a balanced army and see what works and what doesn't. I might lose some games, but thats how you gain experience. When learned to ride a bike you fell a few times then you eventually learned what to do.

Ris
02-11-2007, 16:03
pack a few dispel scrolls for that scary moment when the HE player announces "casting bears anger on the bladelord/keeper of the flame/guardian" O_o

Briohmar
02-11-2007, 16:13
Yeah well, the concern is more than just that, every unit got a points reduction, including the ridiculously underpriced silver helms. The mages can now give units a 4+ ward save (so much for shooting them.) Empire knights, Chaos Chosen knights, Bretonnian knights, Iron Breakers, and chariots are now the only viable options against HE. You need at least a 3+ armor save to get a chance at attacking back, even on your own charge, add to that, the still amazingly underpriced magical items that even unit champs (WTF?) can take, they now only need two cores in a 2000 point list, and can take 6 (count them 6) special choices. Basically, HE now violate the majority of Warhammer rules. There really isn't much sense in trying to fight them fairly, since they don't obey the rules themselves, so I say go with the absolute cheesiest builds you can. Adam Troke obviously doesn't believe in non-comp score tournaments, or he wouldn't have made such an abusable list.
On tournament comp scores, I hope every organiser out there docks points for not taking three cores, and even more for taking more than 4 specials, and a 0 is definitely in order for an army that shows up with two dragons.

theunwantedbeing
02-11-2007, 16:15
Just take an army built around killing his stuff.
Then when he starts using a more reasonable force tone down your list.

scarvet
02-11-2007, 16:29
Yet....if your opponent is dump enough to let you grab the initiative of the battle.
Wood elves and Bretonnian will do ok, Orc will be relying on mass block of themself(not goblins), and steam tank will be more shinier than the elve; Dwarf just have to be Dwarfs; all other army just pray to the dice god.

Ris
02-11-2007, 16:43
Yeah well, the concern is more than just that, every unit got a points reduction, including the ridiculously underpriced silver helms. The mages can now give units a 4+ ward save (so much for shooting them.) Empire knights, Chaos Chosen knights, Bretonnian knights, Iron Breakers, and chariots are now the only viable options against HE. You need at least a 3+ armor save to get a chance at attacking back, even on your own charge, add to that, the still amazingly underpriced magical items that even unit champs (WTF?) can take, they now only need two cores in a 2000 point list, and can take 6 (count them 6) special choices. Basically, HE now violate the majority of Warhammer rules. There really isn't much sense in trying to fight them fairly, since they don't obey the rules themselves, so I say go with the absolute cheesiest builds you can. Adam Troke obviously doesn't believe in non-comp score tournaments, or he wouldn't have made such an abusable list.
On tournament comp scores, I hope every organiser out there docks points for not taking three cores, and even more for taking more than 4 specials, and a 0 is definitely in order for an army that shows up with two dragons.

where do i start with this...

- Not every unit got a points reduction, a handful of special units actually increased in cost including the likes of swordmasters

- Mages do not get a spell to give units a 4+ ward. Pheonix Guard have a built-in 4+ ward...mages can give a single unit a 5+ ward until the start of the next turn...

- Champions for dragon princes, white lions, swordmasters and pheonix guard could all take 25 points of magic items in the last edition too

- The army may have 6 special choices, but count how many special units this has to be divided between - the bulk of the army. If HE generals could only choose four from the range available it could lead to tactical inflexibility and difficulty in themeing and army. Perhaps even worse, units like Silver Helms that you find underpriced (though goodness knows why...they are not that good) would become core choices to balance the list out.

Theres more...but i think thats enough. Please get the facts right before stressing out ok? :)

Briohmar
02-11-2007, 17:52
where do i start with this...

- Not every unit got a points reduction, a handful of special units actually increased in cost including the likes of swordmasters

- Mages do not get a spell to give units a 4+ ward. Pheonix Guard have a built-in 4+ ward...mages can give a single unit a 5+ ward until the start of the next turn...

- Champions for dragon princes, white lions, swordmasters and pheonix guard could all take 25 points of magic items in the last edition too

- The army may have 6 special choices, but count how many special units this has to be divided between - the bulk of the army

Theres more...but i think thats enough. Please get the facts right before stressing out ok? :)

OK, its a 5+ ws. Did sword masters lose killing blow? Silver helms got a 2 point cut, Spearmen got a 2 point cut, both gained ASF. Did spearmen lose fight in 3 ranks? Did magic item points costs go up? Did the banner of ridiculous magic dice get axed? As for the bulk of the army, guess what, the bulk of an army should be its core, hence the name. Are repeater bolt throwers still 2 for 1 rare? In essence, all the things HE players whined about last edition were erased, but none of the things that made them strong in the previous edition. I think that the problem here is just like the Skaven book, they let the HE guy build the army. Against HE now, in my chaos army, my marauders are all but obsolete, as are my daemons, my beast herds, my non-chosen warriors, and my bestigors. In my empire army, my infantry, complete with flank charging detachments are obsolete, as there's no way they can stand up to 20 attacks at superior WS on charging, and 12 on being charged. In my orc and goblin army, well, the best I can hope for is a 3+ save, (and that on my Boar boys who went up in cost so that they are now over-priced, where the under-priced HE cav of the previous edition went down in cost)so basically the entire greenskin army is useless against them, except boar and wolf chariots (which lost their 2 for 1 status as specials.) My Dark elf army, is pointless to bring to the table anymore. The HE book does one thing to most players, encourages a new arms race. Against HE, the best choice is an all Khorne Knight army, an All Tzeentch Knight and chariot army, a dwarven gunline, an empire gunline, a Skaven SAD army, a Bretonnian RAF, I can go on if you'd like.
I am not whining, I am incensed that players who play for the fun of the game with pleasant, balanced armies are now obsolete. And that tactics are obsolete against the HE, as any ***** can now take an HE army and win without trying against any but the most obnoxious army builds.

Ris
02-11-2007, 18:10
- swordmasters never had killing blow
- the bulk of the army is special choices as this is supposed to be an army with an elite feel to it
- RBT are NOT still 2-for-1 in rare. In this sense if you want 2 RBTs, you will be paying double the points. While we are at it great eagles are not longer 2-for-1 either...
- The honnors system was scrapped, so now not every mage in a HE armylist has the ability to choose what spells they want...this was quite a hefty bonus in the last edition

yet again a fraction of the things wrong with your post. This will be my 3rd edition as high elves and I dont want this to sound bad but anyone who is called this list undefeatable is not a skilled player...its far from invincible

you need to sit down and read the new armybook (more so you can actually see what rules they have...rather than jumping to false conclusions) and think about where the strengths and weaknesses of each army are

Heretic Burner
02-11-2007, 19:42
Cheat. It really is your best chance.

Clearly chariots are not the way to go. Any HE player will know immediately to field at least 2 cannons. Besides being of great value against large targets they smash chariots completely. Even players that don't field cannons simply have faster units than your chariots. Chariots that don't get the charge are finished.

Cavalry are a way to go - if you are playing Brets. Most other cavalry are absolutely crushed by what you are going to see played by most HE players. When even Khorne knights can be mowed down you know there is a problem in fielding most other cavalry against them. Especially with HE cannons.

Shooting? Certainly. If you plays Dwarfs or Empire. Otherwise you are simply not going to have enough firepower by the time the extremely fast HE army is on you. Sadly HE have very decent leadership.

Magic? No. HE may very well be the best army in the game against magic. A true defensive powerhouse. Any points spent on magic are likely a waste and should be avoided.

Since HE have so many special/rare choices which are extremely effective as MSU they can field a tremendous number of effective units so flanking won't be easy. Fast cavalry should be left at home.

Really your only chance is to cheat or smash them on comp scores. Neither are very sporting, true, but then again your are playing HE so sporting went out the window already.

sainthale1988
02-11-2007, 20:09
you both have valid points but i must point out to the non elf player that not all tactics agains he are obsolite. i still think that the empire 'envelopment' technechie using the detachment rule is still valid (HE lose on combat resolution just like everyone else) thier magic is NO WAY as good as it was in the previous edition. i think the balance idea and bredth of tactics rather than depth will be the key.....till they tone them down in the next edition ;)

Briohmar
02-11-2007, 22:51
I imagine that you are correct in this Saint Hale. I have been playing Warhammer since the very beginnings of the game. I just really don't like the way things are shaping up. Its funny that the only people that say the rule is fair are the HE players themselves. These are the same people that whined that their spearmen were worthless because they could only get five more attacks than anybody else But I digress again, sorry. The detachment charge could be a good thing, but only with a unit of swordsmen with a detachment of swordsmen. This is why I say this. Halberds only have a 6+ sv in cc, spearmen a 5+, and free company are just there to die. The swordsmen have a 50 50 shot at surviving and not becoming shish-ke-baby on the spears of the elves. The flanking force also has to be well armored, or they just become extra combat resolution rather than an assist to the fight. As for standard tactics, frontal charge with anything but a heavily armored unit is pretty much pointless, and a flanking attack with anything but a heavily armored force is suicide. That means, and this is thinking like the professional tactician that I am, I have to work in even more core heavy cavalry. Lets face it, light horse will die in droves, their only strength is in their speed of horse, which they don't even get, as elven heavy cav moves as fast as most light cav. If I send five marauder horse into the flank of an elven spearmen unit, they will be hit two to three times, and likely wounded once or twice (at least the way my dice roll) That leaves me three attacks, of which I hit two, and wound one (plus potentially one wound from the three horses, but there's a good chance of them saving at least one of those wounds.) My flanking force loses combat by one. if I match that with a frontal charge of standard infantry, there are 13 additional attacks, hitting on 3's, so 9 hits, wounding on 4's so 5 wounds, saving on a 6+ thats four wounds, the elves now have a CR of 7 before I even get to attack back, which is now only with that units champion, hitting on a 4, thats 1 hit, wounding on a 4, thats at best 1 wound, and saving on a 5+. At this point, I can't even count on outnumber for my CR, as it is very close. On a dual charge, the best I can hope to achieve is parity, or even winning by one (which is likely not enough to break them) and thats with a 20 man infantry unit and a five horseman flanking force, which is considerably more points than the HE spearmen invested. This is just for the spearmen, I haven't even looked into the mathhammer for SM's, but it really is pretty nasty. Against white lions, I may have a chance, but not Phoenix guard who will save half more with their ward save, if my paltry LD7 infantry can even muster enough courage to charge them.
Here is my disclaimer, I am doing guestimate math here, from the head calculating likely chances for success of a charge, just as I would in the middle of a game. I am not using an abacus, calculator or super computer, so my numbers may not be perfect. But in the heat of a game, they would be enough to stop me from charging, which in the end is what it really boils down to.

Ahrimanator
02-11-2007, 23:17
The weakness of the HE force is the armour saves. Add that to low numbers, high cost and combat strengths in those shiny new special choices and every shot counts.
"But phoenix guard have a 4+ ward save!" True, but a 5 + armour save model hit by a handgun won't get it, so a thunderer (about 12 pts i think shooting an advancing phoenix guard has 2/3 x 2/3 x 1/2 = 2/9 chance. Twenty models on a hill in two ranks then get about 13 hist, 9 wounds, 5 kills. That's a rank. Or 10 kills against swordmasters. :)
Next, what is so strong about the special units? The charoits are very fighty, but just as easy to cannonball. The infantry i covered already. The cavalry, well most armies have the chance to take anti cavalry stuff (the pipes of doom, the screaming bell, the artillery piece in the flank etc.) The dragon mages i think are, however, a bit harsh.

NB, i am collecting (hopefully) a HE army soon because my last army was skaven and everyone bitched and moaned and said "You didn't really beat me, that army is broken." So now i pick high elves, and they're broken too? NO. they aren't. Ogre Kingdoms suffer the same problems as high elves. Often outnumbered. Supprisingly ineffective shooting. Close combat potential that is often not realised. In the hands of a good general, the new HE will be devastating. So is every other army. Except Dwarfs. Short little idiots. GET SOME REAL MAGIC ITEMS! ;)

Prince Facestab
02-11-2007, 23:57
It should also be noted that the white dwarf comment about silver helms being two points cheaper is in error. They are two points cheaper... if you don't give them heavy armor.

So a fully upgraded 7th edition silver helm costs the same as a fully upgraded 6th edition silver helm.

EDIT: Oh, and it should be noted that a lot of the magic combos that were really powerful were erased. The banner of sorcery is still there, but there is no channeler, seer is now an arcane item, ring of corin is now a level 3 one use arcane item (in fairness, I do believe that it got 5 points cheaper), and mages went up 5 points to reflect the fact that they strike first. They did get some new nifty tricks, like the... thingy that ends the magic phase, and high magic is a bit better, but I'd say that overall that the HE magic phase got less powerful.

scarvet
03-11-2007, 01:14
Mmm...what about White Lions marching through trees? And what about Sacred Incense(?) that give extra -1? And don't forget they have repeat bolt-throwers in four rares. If you max out/heavy on artillery and range fire power, what army are you having?

And don't overlook the number of evles you can get, since they don't need as much hero in their army compare to other race.
A Mage with lore of beast with any load out is as capable as your Hero plus Wizard under a 1K thanks to ASF. In 2K, all they need is the special Hero to do the fighting and leadership. O, Khroil(?) cane even ride the lion chariot, and double as a flanking force himself as well. If chariot is too slow, take a dragon mage. your cannon crew will flee like ants on fire.

On magic, you are not doing what you do in 6th ed(ues lv2s for battery). Seer staff cost the same as Seer honor, and you mage can't much with it anyway. What the 7th ed HE good at is optimizing the ability of low level/small number of mage, which is much cheaper than any army max out wizard but as good. If you got a magic heavy army, just watch how total level 4~5 keep up with you in offense and screw you with drain magic. It is not as powerful, but don't over look the ability to raise fireball from 5+ to 8+, which makes it not so easy to cast with 2 dice.

smileyface
06-11-2007, 01:30
I have to say, having looked at the relatively consistant rumours, I'm not entirely happy with the new HE direction. I mean, the four rare at 2K basically exists so that you can have a 3/1 split of RBT and eagles instead of 2/2 every time, but it makes the mistake of allowing the HE player to field cannon without losing either his eagles or his RBT. Obviously, as an HE player, I quite like the idea of fielding a cannon, but I think there should have been some limit, because there are some people out there who will abuse this simply out of competitiveness. Further, Dragon princes and swordmasters didn't really need 2A - 2A takes them from 'good but mortal' up to the next level of nasty. Still, that's what happens in a system where basic troops only have one attack - you can't just be a bit better than them, you get a bonus A and you're at least twice as good.

On the other hand, this sort of response doesn't help:


Cheat. It really is your best chance.
...
Really your only chance is to cheat or smash them on comp scores. Neither are very sporting, true, but then again your are playing HE so sporting went out the window already.

What happens if, hypothetically, you run into a HE player who uses the new rules to make the fluffy army - you know, the ranks of spears and archers with other units as backup - the army that didn't work at all last edition because the core infantry were all overpriced? Well, if you cheat and gyp your army up as much as possible, then you'll probably beat him. In which case he'll curse the day he tried to be nice, and then go home and write exactly the sort of list that you fear, with DoW cannons and a ton of 2 attack dragon princes. Of course then next time you play him he'll hand you your head, and you'll come back here and complain that HE are 'broken'.

It's a nasty feedback loop, cheating and trying to abuse systems.

For what it's worth. my advice is to consider what is fundamental to the elf list:
1) They are T3, and usually 5+ save. That means pretty fragile.
2) They are expensive. Even with spears at the rumoured 9 points, they are still going to be over 200 for a full sized block. That's not cheap.

When you tot it up, it looks like a 2K army is three blocks (one small elite block and two spears), one archer/sea guard unit, a couple of RBT, a couple of small cav, maybe a couple of chariots, a couple of foot heroes, and then whatever you want for fun (call it a mage and a dragon mage, because the dragon mage looks like a laugh). That's not a big army. So what do you need? Well, ranged damage is always good against small fragile armies. So if it's possible for you, then a decent shooting/magic component combined with some decent disruption to slow them down should really pay off. Of course, it's possible the HE player could take a lot of cav and engage on turn two, or take a lot of magical ward saves to minimise your shooting damage, so pure gunline is probably a bad plan.

What of combat troops then? Well yes, you will be outclassed by swordmasters in a frontal fight. That doesn't mean you should ditch the combat troops. Spears are still not that scary - they are still only S3 so heavy cav can have fun, and their ASF is irrelevant for most infantry (it was already a bad idea to charge them - you had to wait for them to charge you, when they did they struck first, and in subsequent rounds they struck first due to high I). Frankly, if you can't take the barrage of S3 hits, then you're going to have to charge them in the flank just like you did last edition. If that means risking a block of your own infantry as the bait then bite the bullet and do it. White lions are can openers, so don't chuck your cav at them. However, they are too pricy to have large stastic combat res, so if you chuck some basic infantry with spears at them they should have the edge... but you should have a hundred points to spend somewhere else. Meanwhile the oh-so-scary phoenix guard have fear and a ward save. Wow. So they are hard to break. On the other hand they've got one S4 attack each, so they aren't going to do a lot of damage in return. A block of, say, empire sword or spears in the front will lose combat by a little bit, but will be doing so at 150 points less than the HE player is using, which means you've got 150 points of unit for doing something else (like flanking the PG and breaking them through combat res). On to the scary stuff - swordmasters are truly dangerous, in a way Tolkien would have loved (as long as they have a singsong before going out and decapitating everything in sight), but the fact is they're T3, 5+ save, break like any elite elves. Shoot em, magic em, flank em. The HE player can probably stop you doing at least one of those, but only if he stops you doing all three do you have a real problem*. Next up, silver helms - as they were last time, except that now there's fewer of them. That's easier. Dragon princes - are now firghtening, but seriously expensive. Treat them as you would Saurus cav or grail knights.
Okay, so each potential combat unit here is a problem - but none of them are insurmountable. Don't panic.

On magic, it's like it always was. HE can have good magic. However, as with anything in an expensive army, they can have good magic if they don't mind leaving something else behind. If the HE player takes that shiny new dragon mage or an Archmage then that's 400 points in a pretty fragile model (yes, it's a dragon. The elf riding it has no armour, and if he goes, I'll bet it has to take a Ld test to stay in play). Whichever way you look at it, to have 'pretty scary' magic at a 2K level the HE player needs to dump ~600 points into wizards. How did you deal with that last time? Do the same again, bearing in mind that magic isn't as good in this edition as it was under most of the previous books life.

To sum up, HE look a lot like Eldar. They could potentially do anything (except horde), but due to high point costs they can't do it all at once. Hence, a balanced approach is required. Pick a balanced army: make sure you brought some fast cav for all the dirty tricks you can pull (and I don't mean charging the archers, I mean using the fast cav rules), make sure you've got your firepower and your combat, and your expendable screens (if available), make sure you've got a bit of magic defense. Then don't panic, learn the rules for the enemy, and think carefully about what you've got that can counteract what they've got.

Actually, that's a pretty useful approach against any enemy.

Two notes:

*or of you're Khorne, just keep throwing bodies at them until everything is dead. It's a win for the Blood God either way, because you can't kill someone with a six foot razor sharp sword and not get blood everywhere.

I'll be honest. ASF and cheaper spears is going to be nasty for DE. Then again, things have been pretty bad for DE basically since 6th edition came out. Keep calm, remember your dirty fast cav tricks, and if all else fails bribe the guy that wrote this book to write yours next year. ASF Druchii vs ASF Asur should be a laugh, for Khaine if no-one else.

MalusCalibur
06-11-2007, 02:29
Looking through this thread, I would ignore all those who whine that High Elves will be broken once the new book arrives. It happens with every single new army book, and that trend is never likely to end. People see a new book, with all its new, shiny rules, and because they havn't faced it yet they panic and start whinging that it's unbeatable. Just wait for that wave of 'new book panic' to end and people will turn their whining to the Vampire Counts.
I agree that ASF was not the best solution to the problems with the previous HE book, but there's nothing anyone can do about it now. Those who are complaining could better spend their energies coming up with effective counters.


MalusCalibur

sainthale1988
07-11-2007, 09:58
I think smile face has put the argument most expertly so thanks for that. as far as people complaining that Vampire counts will be broken that would be nice as they are broken in a bad way now!