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FeetOfClay
01-11-2007, 17:29
The Rhana Dandra and the birth of Ynnead both result in the end of the Eldar race, so how can you explain both?

IJW
01-11-2007, 17:36
Option 1. They haven't happened yet in the current 40k timeline, so maybe only will will actually happen?
Option 2. Predictions != what is going to actually happen.
Option 3. They are the same event as described from different perspectives.

superknijn
01-11-2007, 17:36
Ynnead is the god that will exist after all Eldar have died. And all Eldar will die in the Rhana Dandra.

FeetOfClay
01-11-2007, 17:45
I never thought of option 3. And ynnead couldnt exist after the Rhana Dandra, because it causes the end of both universes.

LordXaras
01-11-2007, 18:31
Again, that is a matter of perspective and individual interpretation.

If, for example, the barrier separating the Warp from the Material World was broken it would be the end of both universes, meaning that they have ceased to exist as separate entities and are now one.

Iracundus
01-11-2007, 20:47
The Rhana Dandra is not described as a singular moment, but rather as a period of time so multiple events can happen. The events that are predicted by the Eldar to happen are: the Phoenix Lords all finally die fighting against Chaos, and Ynnead awakens. For all we know, the death of the last Phoenix Lord could be the final spark that awakens Ynnead.

The Rhana Dandra is also claimed by the Eldar to be the mutual destruction of the physical universe and the warp. This could occur as a result of Ynnead's awakening and subsequent battle with Slaanesh.

Chaplain Ark
01-11-2007, 21:11
so the Rhana Dandra leads to the awakening of Ynnead, which leads to the end of the universe?

Then my question, WHY IS THE IMPERIUM TRYING TO KILL THEM ALL????!!!?!?!?!?!?
Dont they realize that thier combined powers would be nearly impossible to defeast? Imagine, a land raider with brightlances or a falcon with an extra assault cannon, how can you say no?

del-patch
01-11-2007, 21:21
'ahem>? Xenos? allying with 'em??!!? thats, like, totally against what the emperor told us'- you'd be taken away by the ordos xenos and never seen again, thats why!

would not only the phoenix lords have to die, but all of the eldar? selfish aliens, not doing a mass suicide.

Isn't it just a theory of Elderad anyways? so it could be one of many possible events, besides, who says eldar dead god dudes going to win (I hope not, I'm slaanesh!)

superknijn
01-11-2007, 21:37
so the Rhana Dandra leads to the awakening of Ynnead, which leads to the end of the universe?

Then my question, WHY IS THE IMPERIUM TRYING TO KILL THEM ALL????!!!?!?!?!?!?
Dont they realize that thier combined powers would be nearly impossible to defeast? Imagine, a land raider with brightlances or a falcon with an extra assault cannon, how can you say no?

The Imperium isn't sane, it's more religious than the Vatican, more conservative than France, and even more intolerant than, well, you can probably think of anything intolerant yourself. The Imperium hates Xenos, and anyone who thinks otherwise is themselves a heretic (as religion and loyalty are mixed into some horrid reality). In the Grim Darkness of the Far Future, there is Only War.

Chaplain Ark
01-11-2007, 21:51
why must man be so stupid?

jb85
01-11-2007, 22:12
why must man be so stupid?

The two factions ally when circumstance suit. The Eldar would gladly see the Imperium wiped from the face of the galaxy, so do not think that the hostile feelings are a one way process.

Defcon
01-11-2007, 22:12
The Imperium isn't sane, it's more religious than the Vatican, more conservative than France, and even more intolerant than, well, you can probably think of anything intolerant yourself. The Imperium hates Xenos, and anyone who thinks otherwise is themselves a heretic (as religion and loyalty are mixed into some horrid reality). In the Grim Darkness of the Far Future, there is Only War.

It's kinda cute how everyone always buys into this face. It's patentedly not true. The Imperium of Man are not technophobes so utterly ingraned in their works that nothing ever gets done. The Imperium of Man itself may not be pragmatic, but the people within it are. Many people interact with Xenos races. Not everybody is a heretic, nor is everybody an intolerate shmuck with their head in the ground. In the Grim Darkness of the Far Future, slapping one set of traits on humanity is Only Wrong.

The pestilent 1
01-11-2007, 22:19
It doesn't really matter what average joe blogs on the hive world thinks when the Space marines, Inquisitors and Imperial guard are busy blowing the crap out of every non human (and a fair few humans) in the Universe does it.

jb85
01-11-2007, 22:22
It doesn't really matter what average joe blogs on the hive world thinks when the Space marines, Inquisitors and Imperial guard are busy blowing the crap out of every non human (and a fair few humans) in the Universe does it.

Yet even that is a sweeping generalisation. Eldar and Imperial forces have fought together on many occasions but as I said it only occurs when it suits the purpose of BOTH parties.

Imperialis_Dominatus
01-11-2007, 23:20
In answer to the OP, Ynnead and the Rhana Dandra are not mutually exclusive- quite the opposite. The Rhana Dandra is the end of the Eldar race, the god Ynnead is created by that end.

[SD] Bob Plisskin
01-11-2007, 23:49
Option 4 - it's made up by eldrad to give the rest of his race hope when in fact there is none....

Ktotwf
02-11-2007, 01:18
Bob Plisskin;2055078']Option 4 - it's made up by eldrad to give the rest of his race hope when in fact there is none....


Teh win. :skull:

Kage2020
02-11-2007, 02:47
Technically speaking option 4 would be the only way though, Ktotwf. And that includes humanity and the vaunted power of the Emperor. All things perish. ;)

Personally I've never seen Rhana Dhandra as the end of the Eldar, but rather a new beginning. Boorish, I know, but then again so is prophecy. (As that thrice-damned tablet shows us.) :D

The nature of that beginning is the thing that is up for grabs. After all, in many ways, following through with the traditional "borrowed" mythology of the Eldar, it is reasonable that in death the Eldar will see rebirth (e.g. the whole "celtic" idea of death, reincarnation, and birth).

Thus, as a quick, fun idea: The birth of Ynnaed is heralded with a messiah, an Eldar (no, not the Emperor-as-New Man!) gifted with the powers of the nascent god and who will bring them to their final victory and death. He is a figure to be held in reference and fear, for he is not the hope of a Pyrrhic victory, but of rebirth. For as Ynnaed will be formed of those that have been bound in the Eternal Matrix, so will he free those that were bound in the Fall (the Gods, some spirits, etc.).

In the next cycle, Death is reborn as Life -- Ynnaed gives way to the Phoenix Lord, Asuryan.

Or something like that. :D

Kage

reds8n
02-11-2007, 10:17
so the Rhana Dandra leads to the awakening of Ynnead, which leads to the end of the universe?

Then my question, WHY IS THE IMPERIUM TRYING TO KILL THEM ALL????!!!?!?!?!?!?
Dont they realize that thier combined powers would be nearly impossible to defeast? Imagine, a land raider with brightlances or a falcon with an extra assault cannon, how can you say no?


And of course the majority of the Imperium doesn't know this, and wouldn't believe it anyway.

And the Admech would never stand for their blessed technology being corrupted like that.

Rockerfella
02-11-2007, 10:31
Kage:

I'm specifically interested in the idea that this messiah esque Eldar character (again, not the Emperor) will free those that were bound in the Fall (the Gods, some spirits, etc.), with Yneead giving way to the leadership of the Phoenix King, Asuryan, right? Does that mean (with relation to your idea here) that the other Eldar gods will be reborn in a fashion?

Just a really interesting concept thats all. I'd like to know more.

Cheers!

Iracundus
02-11-2007, 10:35
Option 4 is not an option in the first place because the 3rd Ed. Eldar Codex shows Eldrad in personal private meditation, sensing the slumbering Ynnead, and believing in Ynnead as a valid hope. Whether or not he is mistaken is not relevant. The fact is that he isn't deliberately making it up to fool others.

biggreengribbly
02-11-2007, 13:27
The nature of that beginning is the thing that is up for grabs. After all, in many ways, following through with the traditional "borrowed" mythology of the Eldar, it is reasonable that in death the Eldar will see rebirth (e.g. the whole "celtic" idea of death, reincarnation, and birth).


Didn't Eldar re-encarnate originally anyway, until Khaine's victory over Nightbringer? (granted, as part of the near universally reviled 'War in Heaven' additions)

Bregalad
02-11-2007, 22:06
If I understood the novel Harlequin right, Ynnead's birth is something like the positive version of the birth of Slaanesh: A new God made up of the psychic entities of all "good" Eldar, ending the reign of Chaos. And the Rhana Dandra is either the path to this in general or the ritual to achieve this in special. At the end of the novel, some Harlequins try to do this ritual that could possibly end the 40k universe as we know it.

Kage2020
02-11-2007, 22:08
I'm specifically interested in the idea that this messiah esque Eldar character (again, not the Emperor) will free those that were bound in the Fall (the Gods, some spirits, etc.), with Yneead giving way to the leadership of the Phoenix King, Asuryan, right?
Well, for me, the messiah paves the way for Ynnaed, but at the same time destroys the Webway. With the birth of Ynnaed, the messiah leads the mortal Eldar against the Realms of Chaos to break free the essence of the dead Gods and become more him (or it) self.

And then, yes, Death gives way to Life, Ynnaed to Asuryan. Except, for me, Ynnaed becomes Asuryan. He has, after all, acquires the 'god spark' from the Eldar of the Infinity Circuit, and that is the seed of the rebirth of the Eldar in the god realm.

Eldar mythology didn't get the what wrong, merely the when. ;)


Does that mean (with relation to your idea here) that the other Eldar gods will be reborn in a fashion?
Freed or reborn, yes. Depends on the mythology. ;)


Option 4 is not an option in the first place because the 3rd Ed. Eldar Codex shows Eldrad in personal private meditation, sensing the slumbering Ynnead, and believing in Ynnead as a valid hope. Whether or not he is mistaken is not relevant. The fact is that he isn't deliberately making it up to fool others.
Still doesn't make it an invalid option, Iracundus. There is nothing to say that Eldrad was not lying to himself, or otherwise filling himself with false hope. Not that I believe that, you understanding...


Didn't Eldar re-encarnate originally anyway, until Khaine's victory over Nightbringer?
If you believe that myth. I don't see a reason to. GW seems to rely far too much on the idea of "genetic memory" carrying on for, in this case millions of years, even when it's hard enough to swallow over a handful of millennia. :D

Of course, that's just me.

Kage

Tehkonrad
03-11-2007, 00:25
nah i think that the khaine V nightbringer and war in heaven additions are pretty cool but of course thats just me

Kage2020
03-11-2007, 00:48
For me it's not the visual imagery, or even the mythology, just the idea that it stopped reincarnation... somehow. Oogah-boogah! :eyebrows:

That's another one of the reasons that I mentioned my personal take about it, above. :D

Kage

Ktotwf
03-11-2007, 00:56
Ynnead = The Emperor. :p

Kage2020
03-11-2007, 01:21
And I'm sure that some conspiracy theorists agree with you. And others, still, will say, "Emperor = C'tan".

Kage

Imperialis_Dominatus
03-11-2007, 07:43
And they all must be purged with fire and sword.:angel:

Rockerfella
03-11-2007, 12:04
Well, for me, the messiah paves the way for Ynnaed, but at the same time destroys the Webway. With the birth of Ynnaed, the messiah leads the mortal Eldar against the Realms of Chaos to break free the essence of the dead Gods and become more him (or it) self.

So, Yneeads real and only role here is to free the old Gods, so that they can sally forth to do battle with the forces of chaos once again?


And then, yes, Death gives way to Life, Ynnaed to Asuryan. Except, for me, Ynnaed becomes Asuryan. He has, after all, acquires the 'god spark' from the Eldar of the Infinity Circuit, and that is the seed of the rebirth of the Eldar in the god realm. So, in this respect, does the greater, noble essence of Asuryan encompass and 'possess' Yneead, or is Yneeads birth simply the catalyst, the kick start to the rebirth, and or freedom of the greater Eldar pantheon?



Freed or reborn, yes. Depends on the mythology. ;) I getcha! ;)

Kage2020
03-11-2007, 14:13
So, Yneeads real and only role here is to free the old Gods, so that they can sally forth to do battle with the forces of chaos once again?
No, Ynnead serves his function. The freeing of the old Gods - bound in "the Greatest Secret" - does not necessary restore them, but merely places them outside of the bondage of Slaanesh, an imprisonment that had already been weakened by the arebennian over the (tens/hundreds/whatever of) millennia before this.

Do the old gods do battle? Hmmn. I'm tempted to say not. Rather they rekindle the divine spark in the Eldar but then go to lick their wounds and dream of what it was to be themselves.


So, in this respect, does the greater, noble essence of Asuryan encompass and 'possess' Yneead, or is Yneeads birth simply the catalyst, the kick start to the rebirth, and or freedom of the greater Eldar pantheon?
Ynnead is Asuryan, for me anyway. He is the aspect of life at its end, which is to say he is death. Ynnaed is then burned in his own death and becomes Asuryan. So, no, no possession.

It's just idle speculation about an event in the distant future.

Kage

Rockerfella
03-11-2007, 14:30
No, Ynnead serves his function. The freeing of the old Gods - bound in "the Greatest Secret" - does not necessary restore them, but merely places them outside of the bondage of Slaanesh, an imprisonment that had already been weakened by the arebennian over the (tens/hundreds/whatever of) millennia before this. Ok. So, at least they are able, and capable to act freely for the first time in however many thousands of years.

If their collective power is taken from Slaanesh, does that mean the lord of pleasure becomes less poweful as a result?


Do the old gods do battle? Hmmn. I'm tempted to say not. Rather they rekindle the divine spark in the Eldar but then go to lick their wounds and dream of what it was to be themselves. How does someone like Cegorach fit into this? Would he (having been active, relatively speaking) since after the fall, want to just wander off, free of his ties to the webway? OR, would he be more pro-active in terms of chaos etc?

Another thought: With the Old Pantheon relieved of their ties to slaanesh, would they now be aware of the return of the C'tan, and if so, would that not spur them into some kind of action, on some level?



Ynnead is Asuryan, for me anyway. He is the aspect of life at its end, which is to say he is death. Ynnaed is then burned in his own death and becomes Asuryan. So, no, no possession. I see. :)


It's just idle speculation about an event in the distant future. Yah, I worked this part out. :p I just like it thats all, and personally like to waffle and discuss/speculate on this type of subject.

;)

Iracundus
03-11-2007, 14:40
The novel Harlequin by Ian Watson has nothing to do with Ynnead as that novel was written long before Ynnead was introduced into the Eldar background. The Illuminati and the Star Child were discussed in that book but there was no Ynnead.


Ynnead, being generated in essentially self contained psychic environments scattered across the galaxy (the Craftworlds), could very well rupture the boundary between warp and realspace across the galaxy with his birth (or at least cause lots of little miniature warp/realspaceo verlaps). Another point of interest is whether Ynnead's personality and psyche will be substantially different from that of the ancient Eldar gods or of Cergorach given that he is the only Eldar god to be formed from the souls of Path walking Eldar.

Kage2020
03-11-2007, 14:42
Indeed with reference to the Webway. That's one of the reasons that I have the Webway being destroyed with the final birth of Ynnead... ;)

(And, incidentally, Ynnead is formed from the Eternal Marix and the Laughing God.)


Ok. So, at least they are able, and capable to act freely for the first time in however many thousands of years.
Well, they are able, though whether they are capable is another matter. Perhaps towards the end of the End Times, after they've recovered from the taint of Slaanesh, since slaves will bear the marks of bondage for long after they are freed.


If their collective power is taken from Slaanesh, does that mean the lord of pleasure becomes less poweful as a result?
That's the general idea, yes. And Ynnead will do battle with the Beast and, with his final death, rend the very essence of Slaanesh and free the souls of Slaanesh. (Of course, Ynnead is hardly going to be able to utterly destroy the concepts that Slaanesh encompasses. I do not personally believe that you could ever defeat Chaos without first defeating your own subconsciousness.)


How does someone like Cegorach fit into this?
For me, as above, he is Ynnead, or a part of him.


Another thought: With the Old Pantheon relieved of their ties to slaanesh, would they now be aware of the return of the C'tan, and if so, would that not spur them into some kind of action, on some level?
The birth of Ynnead would already have kicked the C'tan in the twig and giggle-berries.


I see.
It's the whole "celtic" angle. I'm sure if you wanted you could have Asuryan off out and about licking his own wounds. I just find it less fun and "mythologically appealing."


I just like it thats all, and personally like to waffle and discuss/speculate on this type of subject.
I very rarely both with much of the conspiracy theory that jumps up with the 40k universe, but interpreting the Eldar mythology for someone that loves that race? It's kind of a necessity to make (personal) sense of all that nonsense. ;)

Kage

Rockerfella
03-11-2007, 15:00
Indeed with reference to the Webway. That's one of the reasons that I have the Webway being destroyed with the final birth of Ynnead... ;) Ahaaa! You sly ole so and so! I see. Well, that would make sense in the grad scheme of things. So, Ynnead wakes up, the webway goes ta taa, and Cegorach goes hip to hip with the God of the dead. Good stuff.


Well, they are able, though whether they are capable is another matter. Perhaps towards the end of the End Times, after they've recovered from the taint of Slaanesh, since slaves will bear the marks of bondage for long after they are freed. Absolutely, but would they not, on some level at least, be a touch on the, shall we say, vengeful and somewhat angry side too?



That's the general idea, yes. And Ynnead will do battle with the Beast and, with his final death, rend the very essence of Slaanesh and free the souls of Slaanesh. (Of course, Ynnead is hardly going to be able to utterly destroy the concepts that Slaanesh encompasses. I do not personally believe that you could ever defeat Chaos without first defeating your own subconsciousness.) Hmm. So, at what point here does Ynnead coalesce into Asuryan? Or, are you refering to Ynnead as Asuryan here? *confused*



The birth of Ynnead would already have kicked the C'tan in the twig and giggle-berries. Well, thats not going to please the Cron fanbuoys, although, as stated before, i'm aware this is just idle speculation at best. The thing for me here, is how does this happen? Would the slam dunk on the C'tan occur due to the massive warp explosion/shock wave/tsunami (whatever) from the new gods birth?



It's the whole "celtic" angle. I'm sure if you wanted you could have Asuryan off out and about licking his own wounds. I just find it less fun and "mythologically appealing." Indeed! Personally, in this respect, i'd like to see some of the gods off licking their wounds, whilst others heal and brood, vengeful and bitter, thinking of ways and means to exact some kind of returibution on the hordes of chaos and the C'tan etc etc. I'd like that, but again, i've always been a touch simple when it comes to this type of mythological conversation.



I very rarely both with much of the conspiracy theory that jumps up with the 40k universe, but interpreting the Eldar mythology for someone that loves that race? It's kind of a necessity to make (personal) sense of all that nonsense. ;)

Kage

Yeah, it is. I've spent hours considering the nature of the Eldar gods. Every question i've asked just provokes more. I've spoken to MvS at length about this, and i'm pretty sure i've bored the poor guy to tears. For me its a very very interesting area of the 40k background.

Kage2020
03-11-2007, 16:13
Ynnead wakes up, the webway goes ta taa, and Cegorach goes hip to hip with the God of the dead. Good stuff.
Not strictly. The Laughing God is a part of Ynnead, just as is Asuryan as moderated through the 'divine spark' in the souls of all Eldar as the "Sons of Asur." Asuryan will, in essence, be reborn through death upon the pyre of the Eldar and, in so doing, herald the rebirth of the Eldar themselves.


Absolutely, but would they not, on some level at least, be a touch on the, shall we say, vengeful and somewhat angry side too?
The difference being in whether they can ultimate act or not, but yes one would imagine that they would be angry at their imprisonment. Might actually be the wrong reason for them to join in, but there we go.


Hmm. So, at what point here does Ynnead coalesce into Asuryan? Or, are you refering to Ynnead as Asuryan here? *confused*
In simple terms, Ynnead is the Phoenix Lord, just on the "death" side. When Ynnaed is destroyed, he will be reborn in his own ashes as Asuryan, becoming the first and highest god of the Eldar (who are yet to be born... again).


Well, thats not going to please the Cron fanbuoys...
To be honest, I really don't give a fig what they think. I don't need to satisfy everyone with this process, just deal with the Eldar. This is not the story of the 40k universe, but of the End Times of the Eldar.


Would the slam dunk on the C'tan occur due to the massive warp explosion/shock wave/tsunami (whatever) from the new gods birth?
The warp more readily mixing with the matterium? Yep, that's going to peeve off the C'tan with their "Great Plan."


For me its a very very interesting area of the 40k background.
The conspiracy theories? Each to his own...

Kage

Rockerfella
03-11-2007, 17:30
The difference being in whether they can ultimate act or not, but yes one would imagine that they would be angry at their imprisonment. Might actually be the wrong reason for them to join in, but there we go. Well, can't see the point really, of them being there at all if they're not going to do anything. Seems a tad, impotent and dull, for my tastes at least! :) I'd like sum of em to at least be capable of reaction after so long. Thats just me mind! Of course, this is your idea and i think its brill. I'm just voicing my opinions at this time! :) Their relevance is up to you! lol




To be honest, I really don't give a fig what they think. I don't need to satisfy everyone with this process, just deal with the Eldar. This is not the story of the 40k universe, but of the End Times of the Eldar.



The warp more readily mixing with the matterium? Yep, that's going to peeve off the C'tan with their "Great Plan." Yup. The warp mixing with the materium. Another thing, how are the other chaos gods going to react when Ynnead/Asuryan appears? Will it be a case of 'sit back and see' sort of thing? Or are we going to get into the rather tedious realms of 'well, Ynnead is just another facet of Khorne, nurgle' etc?





The conspiracy theories? Each to his own...

Kage

No Kage, Eldar mythology in general. :)

Kandarin
04-11-2007, 01:04
why must man be so stupid?

It's as much of an Eternal Question in 40K as it is in real life.

Maidel
04-11-2007, 01:46
I dont get the whole 'celtic' comparasson, the entire back story is far more hindu than celtic - Rhana Dandra = end of the world - shiva having 'avatars' and bringing the end of the world (universe in this case) and then the whole 'rebirth bits.

Even the words 'rhana dandra' are FAR more hindi in sound than celtic.

Kage2020
04-11-2007, 01:26
Well, can't see the point really, of them being there at all if they're not going to do anything.
Well, I'm personally glad that they take the more "impotent" approach to nuclear weapons. Again, though, I'm mostly throwing ideas out. I just wouldn't want to see some lame-**** approach whereby they do a Rocky and come back to resounding success after they've taken a beating that should have killed them. (I kind of enjoyed the Rocky films, just so you know. Well, some of them anyway.)


Their relevance is up to you!
Of course. It's just the same as when people read through one of the codices. You select what you want and discard the rest as chaff or nonsense.


Another thing, how are the other chaos gods going to react when Ynnead/Asuryan appears?
Again, who cares? I'm not suggesting a complete solution to the Eldar's "End Times," just one for their own problems.

As to Hindu versus 'celtic'? It really depends on what you wish to see. After all, by the same yard-stick I could say that it was more Voudon...

Kage

Maidel
04-11-2007, 01:40
As to Hindu versus 'celtic'? It really depends on what you wish to see. After all, by the same yard-stick I could say that it was more Voudon...

Kage

Not at all - infact your example is even less valid. The haiti words are nothing like that and also there is very little in the way of re-birth in the traditional sense as is found in hindi and celtic belief.

I can agree that there is a distinct amout of celtic sound to the word Ynnead, but the entire death rebirth bit of the world is not a particularly strong celtic belief. They had a belief of individual rebirth (reincarnation which is not a strong idea in the eldar) but they have very little in the way of all ending, world/ universe rebirth - something which is a distinctly hindi idea (or mayan/ olmec/ aztec - but the eldar arent all about sacrifice so the connection isnt valid to them.)

Added to that and GW often attempt to move things away from the norm (elves are always associated with celtic beliefs) I very much doubt eldar mythology is particularly celtic based.

Kage2020
04-11-2007, 04:58
Strangely enough, I knew that you would take it that way. :eyebrows:

In the case above, I was merely referring to the use of the 'divine avatar,' which the Loa are all but a prime example. Hell, if you want to go for that type of thing, it's almost a one-for-one mapping over to the Eldar Mythology. If not "loa," then you can ascribe the generic term "shamanic," but by the sounds of it you're going to know how fairly meaningless that is...

The thing is, as mentioned above, it depends on the flavour and how you wish to mix the ingredients. You have your own bias, which is fair enough. We all have that bias and, further, how we select to assemble that bias. If you feel that a real-world mythological system requires that they have a concept of "apocalypse" to be valid? Well, that's just you. Just as my own approach is "just me."

As to "traditional 'celtic'" belief? That is of course fairly meaningless since it is a fairly romantic construct from the start, quite substantially mixed with "neo-paganism." So, my bad for that, which is one of the reasons that I always put the world 'celtic' in, well, apostrophes. It's a construct. At the same time, referencing, say, the Tain Bo Culaigne and saying that it proves that 'celtic' doesn't fit is just another array of assumption and preference since you can find some neo-pagan belief that does map onto reincarnation.

As to GW? I think you attribute them more originality than the evidence would seem to suggest, even if "Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence."

Again, it's how how you construct things. If anything, forgive my over-bold statement. We can array one mythology after another, and none of them are going to quite fit. As my favourite quote of the moment goes:


Surfaces glitter with intelligible lies; the depths inside blaze with unintelligible truths.
Choose your poison.

Kage

Rockerfella
04-11-2007, 21:07
Well, I'm personally glad that they take the more "impotent" approach to nuclear weapons. Again, though, I'm mostly throwing ideas out. I just wouldn't want to see some lame-**** approach whereby they do a Rocky and come back to resounding success after they've taken a beating that should have killed them. (I kind of enjoyed the Rocky films, just so you know. Well, some of them anyway.) Of course, but my point is that it would be nice (for me at least) if at least one of the gods were capable and able to do something other than just stagger off and collapse in a heap in the corner of the room. Just one being able to at least consider and think about some kind of retribution would peak interest, for me! :) I don't think its lame really, personally, I think its much lamer where you get gods that are, well.....lame. I'd be asking the question 'And the point is?'.



Of course. It's just the same as when people read through one of the codices. You select what you want and discard the rest as chaff or nonsense. Yeah, definately. I know i'm picking your brains here, but i'm just curious about your thoughts on this, nothing more.



Again, who cares? Well, I do. *lol* Which, i'm guessing would mean others do too. Again, i'm just asking your thoughts on how this would play out, how do you feel about this, and what would you have occur (in terms of the chaos gods) if your scenario were to come into fruition!? :)
I'm not suggesting a complete solution to the Eldar's "End Times," just one for their own problems. I know that Kage, I think we're at crossed meanings here. As with the above, I was curious as to how you would personally view the position of the chaos gods. Does that make more sense?

Kage[/QUOTE]

Kage2020
05-11-2007, 01:30
Of course, but my point is that it would be nice (for me at least) if at least one of the gods were capable and able to do something other than just stagger off and collapse in a heap in the corner of the room.
I can definitely see the point that you're getting at Rockerfella. To be honest, though? It really is whatever you want. My own preference...? I cannot make up my mind, to be honest. Part of me would just want Ynnead to take upon their energy, and perhaps even some of their aspects, and for that to be the 'secret' of Asuryan. But there we go.


I'd be asking the question 'And the point is?'.
I tend towards "'fluff' transparent" approaches where possible. In some ways, though, given the above the old Gods would have their vengeance through Ynnead. Basically it's an urber-Exarch premise, at least on first consideration.


Well, I do. *lol* Which, i'm guessing would mean others do too.
Doing what they normally do? Fighting amongst themselves? No idea, generally, and I have no real opinion.

Kage

Rockerfella
05-11-2007, 17:43
I can definitely see the point that you're getting at Rockerfella. To be honest, though? It really is whatever you want. My own preference...? I cannot make up my mind, to be honest. Part of me would just want Ynnead to take upon their energy, and perhaps even some of their aspects, and for that to be the 'secret' of Asuryan. But there we go. And, in doing so would tie nicely with Asuryans whole 'Phoenix King' label! ;)



I tend towards "'fluff' transparent" approaches where possible. In some ways, though, given the above the old Gods would have their vengeance through Ynnead. Basically it's an urber-Exarch premise, at least on first consideration. I getcha. Not totally dissimilar from Slaanesh then, really. Slaanesh glutted on the power of the old pantheon, Ynnead would do the same.



Doing what they normally do? Fighting amongst themselves? No idea, generally, and I have no real opinion. I do, goes like this.

Khorne, seeing that his arch enemy Slaanesh has been deprived of his power by the newborn Ynnead, realises that Ynnead is accomplishing the very thing he himself fought so hard to achieve at Slaanesh's birth. As Slaanesh, and his very essence (but not his 'racial' memory) is overpowered by Ynnead, the other Chaos gods decide that, at this point in time, its best to leave the new born God of the dead well alone. They shuffle off to the local cafe to gossip over the latest happenings, in a very 'Vera Duckworth' type of fashion.

Slaanesh isn't the only casualty of this titanic battle though, and as Ynnead consumes S/his essence, a reaction occurs that calms the new born God of the dead almost as quickly as the explosion that caused his birth. After the fires in the immaterium settle, the oldest god of the warp is reborn from Ynneads ashes and looks out at a galaxy once familiar, but now altogether unfamiliar. Asuryan moves quickly now, and connects again with his 'children', the Eldar. He gives them hope and the divine belief that they can repopulate, even reincarnate without the worry of Slaanesh.

Something like that. *lol*

How that applies to the other gods once they get wind of Asuryan turning up again, i've no idea.

Anyways, i'm just playing with your idea. :p

Cheers!

Kage2020
05-11-2007, 23:26
And, in doing so would tie nicely with Asuryans whole 'Phoenix King' label! ;)
That was the gut reaction, yes. With that said, the "uber-Exarch" premise is quite importance since it allows the Old Gods to become a part of the gestalt consciousness of Ynnead as well as acting as a booster to its power.


I getcha. Not totally dissimilar from Slaanesh then, really. Slaanesh glutted on the power of the old pantheon, Ynnead would do the same.
I would probably select a different word than "glutted," but that's the basic gist of it, yes.


Khorne, seeing that his arch enemy Slaanesh has been deprived of his power by the newborn Ynnead, realises that Ynnead is accomplishing the very thing he himself fought so hard to achieve at Slaanesh's birth.
Of course, one could point out that Khorne got rather miffed when Slaanesh was trying to nab off with Khaine, so when this pesky upstart assimilates Khaines energies - long since out of Khorne's reach - then... Erm. Well, that might mean something. ;)


After the fires in the immaterium settle, the oldest god of the warp is reborn from Ynneads ashes...
Yep, that whole phoenix imagery can be rather tempting, hence my original comments. :D


Anyways, i'm just playing with your idea.
Play away. I believe by default most material on these boards tends towards that whole GNU/Public license anyway. ;)

Kage

Rockerfella
06-11-2007, 15:53
That was the gut reaction, yes. With that said, the "uber-Exarch" premise is quite importance since it allows the Old Gods to become a part of the gestalt consciousness of Ynnead as well as acting as a booster to its power. I guess this could be seen as a loophole for the 'too few dead Eldar souls to power Ynnead enough to enable him to defeat Slaanesh' argument...


I would probably select a different word than "glutted," but that's the basic gist of it, yes. I thought as much ;)



Of course, one could point out that Khorne got rather miffed when Slaanesh was trying to nab off with Khaine, so when this pesky upstart assimilates Khaines energies - long since out of Khorne's reach - then... Erm. Well, that might mean something. Absolutely! This also raises another interesting question: How are the Avatars of Khaine and his split essence represented in Ynneads birth, and transformation to Asuryan? Would Khaine, being Asuryans younger (but still second oldest) brother, still somehow retain some form of personal identity?




Yep, that whole phoenix imagery can be rather tempting, hence my original comments. Yeah, with Asuryan always been referred to as 'the Phoenix king/god', that makes sense to me.



Play away. I believe by default most material on these boards tends towards that whole GNU/Public license anyway.

Kage

Its just good fun, especially when its something that is of interest personally. :)

Kage2020
06-11-2007, 23:37
I guess this could be seen as a loophole for the 'too few dead Eldar souls to power Ynnead enough to enable him to defeat Slaanesh' argument...
That's an interesting take on it, Rockerfella, but wasn't what I was originally thinking. The assimilation of the Old Gods would be more akin to... having a coffee. It doesn't actually wake you from a deep sleep, but it does perk you up once you're awake.

(Well, most people. Coffee always seems to make feel sleepy.)


Absolutely! This also raises another interesting question: How are the Avatars of Khaine and his split essence represented in Ynneads birth, and transformation to Asuryan?
On a functional level, the Avatar is handily connected (sorta) to the Infinity Circuit, so he gets sucked up with the birth of Ynnead.


Would Khaine, being Asuryans younger (but still second oldest) brother, still somehow retain some form of personal identity?
Incidentally, have you ever formalised the relationship into a genealogical chart, Rockerfella? Would be interested if you have/could.

But, yes, the idea is that all the gods would retain their personal identity. It's mythology in action, after all. :D


Yeah, with Asuryan always been referred to as 'the Phoenix king/god', that makes sense to me.
Yeah. It's kind of superficial, but since it agrees with my approach I'm going to pretend that it has hidden depths. ;)


Its just good fun, especially when its something that is of interest personally. :)
Which reminds me that I should really get around to writing this up for the "Eldar Sourcebook," which is my pet project in parallel to the ASP that I never seem to get to spend any time with.

Kage

Rockerfella
07-11-2007, 20:12
That's an interesting take on it, Rockerfella, but wasn't what I was originally thinking. The assimilation of the Old Gods would be more akin to... having a coffee. It doesn't actually wake you from a deep sleep, but it does perk you up once you're awake. Well, that makes sense. Sort of like a 'turbo boost', with the collective knowledge and powers of the old gods open to Ynnead 'on tap', as it were!


(Well, most people. Coffee always seems to make feel sleepy.) Ah, just makes me need the loo lots. I'm guessing its a potent diuretic :p



On a functional level, the Avatar is handily connected (sorta) to the Infinity Circuit, so he gets sucked up with the birth of Ynnead. Righty. In other words, Khaines 'multi' and totally split essence will coalesce with the birth of Ynnead. In that respect, the War God will be himself again, in a way. If the personal identity of each old god remains, i'm guessing khaines influence will make Ynnead either one very very angry chappy, or a very vengeful chap seething with bitterness and a desire to 'do harm'. Or both. :p



Incidentally, have you ever formalised the relationship into a genealogical chart, Rockerfella? Would be interested if you have/could. I haven't Kage, although it is something i've pondered over and thought about. I'll have a pop at it, why not? I'll start simple and work from top down I guess. Knowing Asuryan was the first makes things easier to get started, I think. Will be interesting!


But, yes, the idea is that all the gods would retain their personal identity. It's mythology in action, after all. :D

Which again, ties in nicely with the notion that some of the gods (for me at least) will be thinking about using their renewed power to wreak havoc on their old enemies, and probably their new ones too!