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Mahatma
01-11-2007, 22:38
Firstly I'd like to thank Allah for giving me Warmaster. I'm a little irritated that I spent 100 on Warhammer in the last month and time painting my Dwarfs, when they are now destined for ebay in exchange for this deal. Such a beauty of a game, I've been like a little child at christman today thinking about putting a whole army on the table and not the meagre 100 men I could buy in a 2000 point Warhammer game.

Tomorrow I've got my gaming club and I'm going to be smooth talking everyone who plays WHFB into having a look at WM. It could sure do with the exposure and imo WM trumps WHFB in the most inportant battle: which can thrown the most units onto the table. Then with a little bit of Mighty Empires my Caliphate of Araby will consume the whole Old World hehehehehe.

Well where to start? I'm hyped and have many questions.

About WM, which would I be better off starting, regular WM or the WMAncient or both? I guess it would be down to how many people I could recruit to the cause and which system helps me in that.

Painting. Could I dip my miniatures to speed paint them or would it look a little poor on the tabletop? I'm not a big fan of painting, I'd consider myself more of a master tactician more suited to pulling off stunningly choreographed battle maneuvours.

What are the major differences between the tactics of WM and WHFB? I've read the rulebook on specialist games and I've noticed how you can combine units together into battalions. Love that concept! So if a line of 3 missile troops with a line or two of infantry behind the most common or best tactic in most cases?

Why are cavalry so good? I've heard that they are very important in the game and can sometimes win the day by themselves. I know they get +1 *something* on the charge aswell as being well armoured but that doesn't seem so gamebreaking to me. It might well be there speed and ability to hit flanks then.

How do Araby play in the game? I've taken a liking to them already and have drawn up a 2000 point list which I'll type at the end. I see them as similar to wood elves in whfb somewhat, because they have fast magic carpets to harass the enemy along with desert and camel raiders, then some rather mediocre infantry in spearmen and standard bowmen. So I see my army as trying to weaken the enemy with massed bow fire and some magic before they hit the center of my lines.

Elephants. Now these do look very nice on paper with 5 attacks and 4 hits. Then they rampage and do horrific damage to my own guys. How should I wield these brutes? Send them out ahead to do as much damage as possible or out on the flanks where they can't rampage through my infantry line?

Why do GW sell 3 Araby characters with 2 riding camels when, afaik, the only mounts available to my general and heros are magic carpets or elephants. And djinn, can I ride these as transport? 90 points does seem a lot for 2/2 attacks and +1 to the curse spell.

Does anyone know if the WMA book includes a turkish army which makes use of Janissary infantry and hashishin? I could be able to use some Araby models as arabic infantry in WMA if I wanted to.

Does anyone else think that skirmishers would be a useful addition to the game? Not with the WHFB scount rule, but a modified version like 40k's infiltrate so that you could deploy a small unit 20cm ahead of your lines to take up a key position. I can't remember reading about this in historical battles but it makes sense to do so.

Yours truly, a WHFB to WM convert.

My rough list. 1905 points at the moment.
General
Wizard with flying carpet
Wizard with flying carpet

8 Spearmen
4 Bowmen
2 Guards
2 Knights
2 Desert Riders
2 Magic Carpets
2 Elephants

dax
02-11-2007, 00:07
>About WM, which would I be better off starting, regular WM or the WMAncient or both? I guess it would be down to how many people I could recruit to the cause and which system helps me in that.

It depends on the setting you prefer if you like fantasy go warmaster if you prefer real world use ancients. The Ancients rules are basically the same they are just a refinement of the warmaster rules the biggest difference is cavalry are based width wise not lenght but I'll go into that in more detail later. The armylists are slightly different points wise as well but ancients does give you generic army entries in the appendix to create your own armies.

>Painting. Could I dip my miniatures to speed paint them or would it look a little poor on the tabletop? I'm not a big fan of painting, I'd consider myself more of a master tactician more suited to pulling off stunningly choreographed battle maneuvours.

No I don't think dipping would work at this scale never tried it though. You planned to do Araby which is easy to paint anyway. Undercoat black, Drybrush everthing codex grey and then a lighter drybrush with frotress grey, Paint the skin areas tallarn flesh don't try darker flesh tones with warmaster figures you need to go a few shades lighter than normal to make it look right. Paint the turbans and slashes Blood Red leave the balck undercoat in the recesses, paint the weapons chainmail wash the whole thing with thinned black ink for shading Retouch the red and flesh if necessary and your done.

Have a look at my painting guide here:

http://forum.specialist-games.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=12819

>What are the major differences between the tactics of WM and WHFB? I've read the rulebook on specialist games and I've noticed how you can combine units together into battalions. Love that concept! So if a line of 3 missile troops with a line or two of infantry behind the most common or best tactic in most cases?

Warmaster is all about command its more tactical. You need to place the commanders in the right place to issue orders. The more orders you issue and the further away a unit is the harder it is to command. If you cant command your army cant do anything the only exception is where an enemy unit is within 20cm units can use their own initative and don't need commands to act. Brigades can contain up to 4 units you can issue one order and the entire brigade will follow that order (or not) rather than commanding everything separately. You could place 2 archer units in front of 2 infantry units but remember the infantry can only support form this position the archers msut do the fighting. I tend to just group missile units together and Infantry units together I don't mix them. Also never mix infantry and cavalry in a brigade as they must end their movement still in contact so they can only move 20cm wasting the cavalry's extra 10cm.

>Why are cavalry so good? I've heard that they are very important in the game and can sometimes win the day by themselves. I know they get +1 *something* on the charge aswell as being well armoured but that doesn't seem so gamebreaking to me. It might well be there speed and ability to hit flanks then.

They get +1 Attack per stand for charging an enemy in the open but so do Infantry. They can move 30cm per command so with 2 or 3 commands if they work you can cross a table. But what makes cavalry so good is they are based on the short edge so their Attacks are confined to a smaller area 2 units of cavalry side buy side take up the same space as 1 unit (3 stands) of Infantry so that would be 24 attacks from the cavalry (Knights) on the charge against 1 Infantry unit and the 1 Infanrty unit can only make 9 back against 2 units.You can also make contact corner to corner so if you charge a unit of infantry in the side all 3 cavalry stands can fight (12 Attacks) but only 1 infantry stand can fight back (3 Attacks). This is basically known as rolling up from the flank so long as the cavalry unit wins the fight and destroys the infantry unit they can advance into the side of the next unit unit in range and continue to destroy their way across the line

>How do Araby play in the game? I've taken a liking to them already and have drawn up a 2000 point list which I'll type at the end. I see them as similar to wood elves in whfb somewhat, because they have fast magic carpets to harass the enemy along with desert and camel raiders, then some rather mediocre infantry in spearmen and standard bowmen. So I see my army as trying to weaken the enemy with massed bow fire and some magic before they hit the center of my lines.

Araby are a good balanced army that should be played cavalry heavy if cavalry are king best to exploit it. Magic carpets are a bit to good for their points

>Elephants. Now these do look very nice on paper with 5 attacks and 4 hits. Then they rampage and do horrific damage to my own guys. How should I wield this brutes? Sent them out ahead to do as much damage as possible or out on the flanks where they can't rampage through my infantry line?

Yeah basically keep of to the flanks and out of range of your own troops if your facing an army with missile weapons if they are if the middle of your troops a clever enmey commander will concentrate all his fire on the elephants in the hope a confusing them and sending them rampaging through your own troops. Remember you cannot brigade elephants with cavalry units.

>Why do GW sell 3 Araby characters with 2 riding camels when, afaik, the only mounts available to my general and heros are magic carpets or elephants. And djinn, can I ride these as transport? 90 points does seem a lot for 2/2 attacks and +1 to the curse spell.

Camels are like horses in other armies they have no rules they are just there for show. Character pieces are just that show pieces. The only specific mounts you have to show are the ones with rules - carpets and elephants. The Djinn allows the character to fly meaning he can move 100cm rather than 60cm which is handier for seting up commands. +2 comabt and +2 shooting attacks are worth 40 points alone but the wizard must join a unit to use these basically adding to the units attacks. The Djinn also causes terror which means units joined by the Djinn also cause terror any enemy fighting them lose 1 attack per turn. Finally the Djinn makes a 6+ spell that forces enemy units to re-roll armour saves into a 5+ spell making it easier to cast. Only take a Djinn in games over 2000 points not below.

>Does anyone know if the WMA book includes a turkish army which makes use of Janissary infantry and hashishin? I could be able to use some Araby models as arabic infantry in WMA if I wanted to.

The Ancients armies supplemant has a Arab - conquest of Islam armylist
The units are warriors, Archers, Skirmishers (unique to WMA), Cavalry, Bedouins, Mounted Skirmishers, Camels. Unit btypes in WMA tend to be a bit more general in their descriptions so most of the aaby army fits these. A Medievil supplement is due next year which willincule Ottoman Turks.

>Does anyone else think that skirmishers would be a useful addition to the game? Not with the WHFB scount rule, but a modified version like 40k's infiltrate so that you could deploy a small unit 20cm ahead of your lines to take up a key position. I can't remember reading about this in historical battles but it makes sense to do so.

Warmaster Ancients uses Skirmishers. They are quite complicated and are better left out of Warmaster.Basically they get full move regardles of formation, can ssee and shoot all around, can evade in opposing players turn, support from side only, move through otherwise impassable terrian

>My rough list. 1905 points at the moment.
General
Wizard with flying carpet
Wizard with flying carpet

8 Spearmen
4 Bowmen
2 Guards
2 Knights
2 Desert Riders
2 Magic Carpets
2 Elephants[/QUOTE]

My list for Araby

4 Spearmen - 1 Brigade
4 Bowmen - 1 Brigade
2 Guards - 1 Brigaded with elephant, if the elephants stampede its only 2 units and they'll provide some needed support

Only take the minimum Infantry required this is cavalry heavy army so use it that way.

2 Knights - 1 Brigade
3 Camels - 1 Brigade
3 Desert Riders - 1 Brigade
2 Carpets - 1 Brigade
1 Elephants - with guards

1 General
2 Heroes
1 Wizard

2000 points

7 Brigades

you don't have enough heroes no hero should have to command more than 2 brigades the general can get away with 3. Don't rely on wizards to command they have low command at 7 and can only command to a maximun of 20cm.

put the wizrd with the guards and elephants on a flank an lt him command them only then the others have 2 brigades each


Hope that helps any more questions ask away.

Mahatma
02-11-2007, 17:45
Thanks for the detailed answers Daz. I get what you mean about me needing more heros, my lines will be stretched all over and the command of only my general will not be enough to maintain order. I was thinking of putting a hero on a flying carpet if possible and sending him off with my two carpet units with another hero with my cavalry. Or something like that anyway.

About guards, would they be better used as a brigade with other guards so they benefit from the 'always ld10' rule when commanded by my general? Mixing them in with my spearmen and bowmen would mean they lose that rule.

As for cavalry being overpowered, what is the best way to deal with them short of a pike wall? I don't want to use too many cav units because i fear it would make the game slightly boring so I'll stick with the infantry wall with cav and carpet support.

azraelezekiel
02-11-2007, 18:10
As for cavalry being overpowered, what is the best way to deal with them short of a pike wall? I don't want to use too many cav units because i fear it would make the game slightly boring so I'll stick with the infantry wall with cav and carpet support.
I thought this when I started playing.:mad:
After a few games (all losses) I decided to conform and max out my cavalry/chariot units for my High Elves, not lost with them since.
Same with my Tomb Kings, just maxed out the chariots though :)

dax
02-11-2007, 18:18
>I was thinking of putting a hero on a flying carpet if possible and sending him off with my two carpet units with another hero with my cavalry. Or something like that anyway.

I think your getting to tied up with whole idea of the magic carpets all it does is change your movement from 60cm to 100cm. Only take a carpet mount if you have a spare 10 points left don't sacrifice something else just to have that carpet. Remember flyers - the carpets get a free home back move towards the nearest character so keeping them in command range isn't to difficult. Carpets shouldn't be put into direct combat anyway fly in harass the enemy with shooting and fly off again they should only see combat in a supporting roll.

>About guards, would they be better used as a brigade with other guards so they benefit from the 'always ld10' rule when commanded by my general? Mixing them in with my spearmen and bowmen would mean they lose that rule.

True they would loose the command rule if given a brigade order with none guard units. What you can do is brigade them with none guard units for normal commands (moving across the battlefield) and then when you need that command 10 order (charging) issue separate orders to the guard and non-guard units. If you brigaded 2 guards and 2 spearmen you could subdivide into 2 smaller brigades of 2 units at the right moment - you can only do this from the first command in a turn though you cannot split the brigade after issuing a 4 unit brigade command I hope you follow what I'm saying. Also they are only command 10 on the first order per turn not on every command subsequent orders are at the the nromal command plus command modifiers.


[I]>As for cavalry being overpowered, what is the best way to deal with them short of a pike wall? I don't want to use too many cav units because i fear it would make the game slightly boring so I'll stick with the infantry wall with cav and carpet support.[I]

Terrain is good for messing up cavalry don't play on a open batllefield even if you use deserts use oasis, palm trees, tents etc. to stop the cavalry having the run of the battlefield. And protect your flanks if you're going the take a cavalry charge take it head on not the side or rear. The best way to deal with cavalry is charge them before they charge you. Infantry on the charge get 12 attacks or more if supported the cavalry will only have 9 attacks back but they will be better armoured. If you are playing ancients Pikes are an option in some armies and definietly negate the cavalries bonus but then ancients cavalry aren'y as powerful as they are based widthwise. Warmaster doesn't officially have pike units. I think like Azrael has siad the reality is you'll need to take as much cavalry as possible or find an opponent who is also willing to restrict their cavalry numbers.

dax
02-11-2007, 18:45
3 other tips for you.

Command always use your subordinates first your general should be the last one to issue orders. If a subordinate fails a command he cannot command again that turn and you move on to the next one. If the general fails a command the command phase ends even if you have other commanders who have not yet issued commands they lose their commands that turn.

Never commit your general to combat. The general must join a unit to join a comabt if the unit is destroyed any hero attached is also destryed and if your general dies it's game over. For this reason as well don't give your general mounts or comabt magic items. If your general has to fight you've probably lost the game already anyway.

Don't strand your commanders to far from their troops if an enemy unit moves over a commander he must flee to a friendly unit within 20cm or he's destroyed this includes the general. I've seen games end quickly where someone forgot to reposition the general and they just got walked over by an enemy unit an destroyed, commonly known as character hunting something to watch out for flyers are brilliant at this as they can travell up to 100cm and pick off a lone character.

Mahatma
03-11-2007, 18:17
Thanks again. The more I read the more I was to start an Araby army. Maybe soon when I've auctioned my WHFB Dwarfs off on ebay :)

Here's a cross post I made on another forum. I'd appreciate some input as i'm at a crossroads now and my options are either quit warhammer and auction dwarves or continue pilling money into gamesworkshop coffers.

"I'm getting tired of Warhammer for many reasons, the biggest being that I'm not 'feeling' it as a fullscale battle but as only a skirmish. Although I've invested about 120.00 GBP into the game I'd like to cut my losses by selling my miniatures and rulebook on ebay and taking up either WMfantasy or WMA.

Has anyone played both systems who has an opion on the matter?

Warhammer just isn't cutting it for me right now and to drop it would leave my main opponent without a game against me (he can still go down to the local club once a week). This fact is causing me a headache because I would feel responsible for his loss of enjoyment. However I never forced him to play the game, it was he who encouraged me to get back into Warhammer after I sold my last army on ebay."

Lord Raneus
06-11-2007, 20:17
I thought this when I started playing.:mad:
After a few games (all losses) I decided to conform and max out my cavalry/chariot units for my High Elves, not lost with them since.
Same with my Tomb Kings, just maxed out the chariots though :)

When you think about it, though, heavy cavalry were the kings of the medieval battlefield. So it makes fluff sense but makes for a slightly unfair game.

Also, I'm considering starting Araby as well, because I like the look of the models and like the whole concept of Warmaster, so thank you for all the advice for budding Araby players.:)

djcasyun
09-11-2007, 15:12
Dax, how come so many light cav? I've always wondered how to get my points worth on these-

I can see the camels-with their special rule, nice for manuevering for bow shots, flank changes-

But seems like 3 camels and 3 desert riders is a bit overkill, with their 6+ saves, -esp on top of the magic carpets

How do you use them?

Doug