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Mad Doc Grotsnik
01-11-2007, 23:40
I'm sure I've brought this up before, but I couldn't find it, so here goes again.

Something that struck me when I was at work today, is just how much of an advantage I have in Warhammer, thanks to my large collection for my precious Dark Elves. This train of thought was kicked off by my opinion about the new High Elf book. If GW are intending to introduce a special rule for each army, then the variety in our games will go up, which provided you can work your way round each new challenge, can only be a good thing. But perhaps, this is skewed by the size of my collection...

Most games I play are around the 2,000 point mark, and I am fortunate enough to have had the resources to amass some 4,500 points worth of models. Clearly, this gives me quite a lot of options when it comes to army style and composition. If I take the whole thing with me, the only units I'm guaranteed to use every game are my Repeater Crossbowmen. Everything else is interchangeable.

The greatest thing though, is that when playing 2,000, where most of my regular opponents would be fielding a large chunk of their collection, I'm using around half. What I've found is, that I tend to be in command of a much more cohesive force, as I have the luxury of engineering synergy into my list. Someone who has 2,200 points worth to choose from, however, won't have quite the same option.

This is why I tend to write all comer lists when I go for a pick up game down the shop. My army will either sink or swim based on my abilities, rather than my opponents lack of options. It might sound a little aloof, but I don't get the WAAC mentality, and I guess what I'm asking, is does the exploitation of a larger collection to field a more suitable force count as WAAC? Or is it only fair?

mistformsquirrel
02-11-2007, 00:10
I don't think its wrong. You have more models - you paid for them; and you aren't breaking any rules in the game (ie: not fielding more than your share of points) - you've every right to use what you've got!

I mean heck - I've got 2000pts of Chaos on the dot - I have literally *no* options yet (I intend to get some; but this is my starting force) - nevertheless, if someone else has 10,000pts to pick from, and shows up with 4 or 5 different lists in the same number of games, I'm not going to complain.

Heck, it'd be more interesting for both of us, since my list has to remain static.

Err, basically - I don't see how it could be WAAC just because you have a larger collection.

Aflo
02-11-2007, 00:16
I prefer to stick to the same force in more or less all of my games. Some times I'll try out a completely new tactic or set up and my armies are constantly evolving to some extent, but I like to be confident that my armies and my leadership can best a wide spectrum of players and armies, without javing to tailor my force to them.

This is sort of a pride thing for me I suppose, but I would have few qualms about someone tailoring a (non 'cheesy') list with the intention of beating mine. Makes the challenge and game all the more interesting - and the victory sweeter :)

pox
02-11-2007, 00:59
I'm with you on general builds. I have a ton of miniatures in order to field whatever I'm in the mood for, not to destroy or tailor my army to my opponents. with your average army, even if you just own one of every unit, its around 3,000 points at least. I like having everything for an army, just to get a feel of all of it. I start with a large core force, then add what looks fun.

And on a slightly off topic thought on large armys, they only impress me when there painted. you can only smack-talk about your 6,000 point force if its painted.

Bloodknight
02-11-2007, 01:31
I've got 8K of Dogs of War (painted *g*), if that isn't flexibility I don't know what is ;). I can basically field whatever my mood wants me to. Tomb Kings - well, 4000 points (painted *g*). I've got everything twice or thrice, so see above. And yes, it matters. A guy with no options will probably have less fun, especially if he's not playing the "ideal build" for his army and therefore might be unable to change to a better list (ie lose less) unless he spends some serious money in a short time. Can be a bit of a downer.

lokigod
02-11-2007, 01:49
well i have about 4k of painted demons for fantasy with another 1000 point chunk in the finishing phase :) Also 2 k in tombkings painted:)......... Also have painted 3 of my friends armys for cash! This is all in a 3 year period, so about 14k in points painted in 3 years!

I love being able to play what ever god or mix of gods I feel like playing that week. It also helps me not get hung up on any certain combo to win a game. Although when I first started I had 1500 points and it got kind of tedious playing that list over and over!

theunwantedbeing
02-11-2007, 01:55
Having more models doesnt make you a better general.
Being able to take the best army to beat your opponent doesnt make you a good general, you simply picked the best army to face the guy so you "should" beat him.

If you dont have loads of cash to buy loads of models or are new to the hobby then depending on your initial choice of army and troops you may have a steeper learning curve. Doesnt really make it any less fun to use the same army over and over untill you finally win.

Lose 1000 times, win once. That win feels way better than winning 1000 times and losing only once.

Khorghan
02-11-2007, 06:34
Does size matter? some girls tell me that the size doesent matter as long as your not a complete whore haha

on a more serious note,

i guess if you bring all your minis around with you, look at the army your up against then pick the models out of your collection that best destroy their army. but thats kind of cheap

Gorbad Ironclaw
02-11-2007, 07:30
Hmm, I suppose that depends on how you got the models in the first place?
I don't know quite how many points I could actually field, since I almost always bring the same army, or slight variations of it; but you can perfectly well have a coherent and well constructed force, even if you don't have many more points than the game level if you put a little forethought and planning into your purchases.

I'm not really getting your point I think, if you have an army that works for you, I don't really see the inherent advantage in having a larger collection. Yes, you might be able to change your army, but unless you are familiar with the army build, it's not going to operate as well as it would if it was your 10th or 20th game with it.



As an aside, what do you mean with the vararity in your games will go up with special rules for each army?

Halelel
02-11-2007, 08:19
I guess I'm the polar opposite of some people, I collect a lot of different armies for variety of playstyles (and the fact that I love some models more than others).

What it means though is that I have less versatility fielding variant types of the same army, but I get to experience the positives and negatives of the armies I use. If that makes any sense, haha.

For instance, I have a 2k Lizardman army that is centered around a Slann and TG unit, which means I always have to use a magic heavy list since I don't have any other models for my Lizzies at the moment. Limiting my use of this specific army (magic only), but if I feel like a game of close combat is in order, I'll take my Ogre 2k army and play it like that.

I feel it makes me a better general playing multiple armies AND it allows me to memorize special rules that others "conveniently" forget, :P

Crube
02-11-2007, 08:32
I tend to never really have a huge amoun of points of a particular army as I am generally swatd by 'shiny-thing syndrom, or will collect an army to a theme. So for me it's nearly always a case of bringing the 2000 points that I own.


I dont necessarily think you're at an advantage having more to chose from. In the old adage, "it's how you use it that counts" ;)

I'm sure we'd both have as much fun in a game, no matter what you brought to the table. I can still play differently with my same old 2000 points in different games, Just cos it's the same list, doesnt mean I'll use the same play style and tactics each time.

Braad
02-11-2007, 08:39
I got 5000 points of greenskins, 1500 waiting for paint and probably several 1000's more waiting to be bought... But those 5000 standing ready really gives lot's of options for different army compositions. Keeps the spirit high, very important I think.
I do have a few that I use often (black orcs, spear chukka's, boyz) but there is none I use in every game. I often try to theme it a bit.

I also like it more not knowing what I'm gonna face. Not all of my regular opponents have that much points-wise, but playing against someone who has a choice in what to field is a bit more exciting.

Prince Sairion
02-11-2007, 09:08
I have approaching 9k of HE, 2/3k dwarfs and 1k of rats, brets, vamps.

If I were to play a 1k game, I'd be happy picking any of those armies, as for the most part Iv'e bought to satisfy an army list, or a tactical option.

Playing a larger game with my HE I think I could easily get carried away with the selection and so would probably get beaten.

Because of the size of that army, there are things in it, that, if fielded at full capacity, would make it a poor army. At 2k, I don't think the choice of models would grant me too much better a chance of beating my 2k dwarf list.

Goldenwolf
02-11-2007, 09:42
I have 8+K of O&G, and 5+K of VC. Being able to alter my army is fun, especially when people bring an army setup to attack what I played the last time.

Curufew
02-11-2007, 09:46
I don't think it really matters because people collect models that they want to use in their armies. It is quite unlike Magic The Gathering whereby a Rich kid with alot of money will pwn the new kid who started it with no money

Warlord Ghazak Gazhkull
02-11-2007, 11:45
Well I have between 15000 and 16 000pts OnG and well I just love the many options I have with my army, I really like the fact that I have some many options to field, altough I don't build anti list, I build balanced armies and well there only a few unit that I always have in my army and that are wolfriders, night goblins and thats it altough sometimes I go with a fully mounted army.

Greetz
G

Guyver OmegaX
02-11-2007, 11:53
I prefer playing against opponents with large collections; it gives a nice element of surprise in their army, rather than thinking "Oh I'm playing this guy, he'll have this, this and this".

I've never had much in the way of options in a Fantasy army; I've sometimes managed to build up 2000 points worth of an army before going on one of my 'breaks' from the hobby, and while I don't feel that I'm at any disadvantage with a set army (partly because I design and build an 'all-comers' army), I would enjoy having choices to make.

EmperorNorton
02-11-2007, 12:23
Since I like having options most of my armies are much larger than they needed to be. I don't think I have an army under 4000 points although I have yet to play a game with more than 2000 points.
As far as I'm concerned playing (or playing against) the same army all the time gets boring really fast.

Ethlorien
02-11-2007, 14:21
I've got 2.5k of HE and around 2k of HoC and DE. When it's a 2k army, I can use any of them and usually tweak it around a bit, just for fun (I don't think I've ever played the exact same army twice). If it's a 4k game, then my friends are good enough to let my have an alliance of DE and Hoc. 3k, though, and I'm fishing around the basement for things to add to my HE (okay, this piece of twine is a dragon, these buttons are swordmasters, and that old sock, oh yeah, that's a chariot...). I'm not bothered by the size of some of my friends collections. We play for fun, and I like to see different armies fielded as opposed to knowing exactly what I'm facing before they hit the field.

Duke Raoul
02-11-2007, 15:31
I love having a huge army and if that gives me and advantage over another player then I have never seen it. The people I play win or lose are always happy to play again.

Ymir
02-11-2007, 15:50
Well, even if ones troop selection isn't too large, I've found it still makes quite a difference how you equip your characters. Of course, it gives much more variety to have a wider selection of models, but one can still vary ones tactics even if using the same list over and over. As people have already pointed out: it's just not a question of fielding a unit; but also -how- you use it. For instance; kitting out a character differently generelly encourages you to use it in a whole different way.

So a limited collection of models needn't be -that- limited after all.

(Then, there's always proxying. In my gaming group; we would certainly allow it if someone once or twice would like to try out something new he hasn't got the models for).

skavenguy13
02-11-2007, 19:40
Well, There are variants to this "problem" I beleive, because for different players, say all have just enough models for 2000 points:

-un-experienced players (or those who just don't like t play to win at all) might very well field things that won't necessarily be really competitive, since he bought those models for other reasons than winning (like skaven assassins, because what is better, in theory, than a ninja rat? But in the actual game...)

-more experienced players on a limited budget are most likely to buy stuff that increases their chances of winning. So even though they can only field ONE 2000 point list, you can expect quite a chellenge. The only problem is he's always going to field the same one.

And then there are also those who have plenty of models to choose from. I'm an example of that. I used to field pretty different lists from one game to another. It was pretty fun, But I often barely put up a fight.

And then there are those (like me currently) who take the same core army. I usually field my warlord with weeping blade, 3X25 clanrats, 3X20 slaves, 2X7 night runners with 2 weapons, my unit of 10 jezzails, 2X3 globadiers. Then I have a chunk of points to take what I want. Choices like stormvermins, monk+PCBs, rat-ogres, scouts, tunnelers, etc. So while I have the same core army, I field armies with pretty important troops that are different from a game to another. This makes it funnier than always choosing the same list, while still be able to reuse good strategies because I have the same core. I really like it that way.

So game-wise, I don't think the size of the collection is a big advantage. If you choose really different armies, you'll have trouble finding good strategies and keeping them. Or your army composition can be a bit weak to start with. And if you always keep the same army, your OPPONENTS will find good strategies and keep them, to use against you.

It's all in moderation.

Crazy Harborc
03-11-2007, 01:55
For myself, for my enjoyment, and in part thanks to a long ago opponent, I need to be able to vary my rosters, usually for each game.;) I have and need to use, different armies and different contents for their rosters, game to game.

Years ago an opponent complimented me for his being able to know what was what in my armies because the rosters were the same, game to game. The next time I played him, I had changed the roster, the units I chose, the number of units........What he had wasn't the best to use against what I was using. Both our armies were the same used in the last game we had played. My different choices ran over his.:D

IMHO, opponents should not be able to "know" what minies/models/units and their quanities, that I will place on the field because they saw the army before in previous games.;)

Random
03-11-2007, 20:46
I have a very large amount of Nurgle fantasy items painted up, to a standard that has won me Best Painted and Best Army (based on GWs math, I was 4th for Best Army in Boston a few years ago, one spot shy of getting a little something for it)

It includes 60 PBs. A couple of large blocks of Warriors, chariots, Knights, and the other etc for a chaos army. Plus deamon only units, such as my Herald and PB Cav. I am starting in on my Beasts so that I can have a full sized "Legion" of about 10k points, all GT standard painted.

It all fits neat into a decent sized plastic tub, in their individual foam cases.

For this army I have like 3 "core" armies printed out. Plus lists for larger games, like 3k, 4k, and everything that has paint on it. I also have units prebuilt on laminated index cards, and just mix and match armies on the fly. It adds a nice variation to the game, and the army never gets old of playing. :D

Random

zak
03-11-2007, 23:10
I suppose the biggest advantage is that you can use the various units to find what is best suited to your game play. I have 2-3 of every O+G unit and the same for DE and find that I can use more units of some if I'm playing a certain opponent. Fielding an all Savage Orc army against VC could be considered as an unfair advantage as I took away one of their biggest advantages as I knew what I was facing where he thought I would be running away, in fact I ploughed through the Skeletons and Zombies like a hot knife through butter.

I just prefer the diversity of different lists I suppose.

Braad
04-11-2007, 02:19
It's not the size that matters, it's how you use it!

...

Sorry, had to say that.

One of my chaos enemies is using the same things all the time, simply because he has little time to make more. And I find it ever more difficult to resist not building an army that will totally annihilate him. Why? To show he really needs to make some time :P It's just not fun playing the same army all over. For both.

Anvilbrow
04-11-2007, 04:31
For me the massive collection I have is a double-edged sword. I play every army currently legal plus several others and have a minimum of 3k for every army, usually quite a bit more.

While this might seem an advantage, being able to field virtually anything I want, ironically, I never field the same list twice except in tournaments. This has the net result of leaving me rarely "knowing" my list.

I wouldn't change a thing though. I like fielding all kinds of funky and characterful combos when I play.

Oh, and for the record, of the 100K plus points I own, around 20k is painted, enough to field more than 4k of Empire, Dwarfs, and Orcs plus around 2k of Dogs of war...

speedygogo
04-11-2007, 06:42
Just ask any girl size doesn't matter. wink. wink.

Cry of the Wind
04-11-2007, 06:53
It really does depend on how you use it. I have no problem with people having large collections of models and mixing it up for a change. The problem lies in making an army that is tooled out to fight a certain other army or player.

If I'm stuck using the same army all the time and you know this and so build a list that exploits all of my weaknesses and lets you have an easier time winning I won't be too happy. If you bring an all comers list but change it all the time that just makes the game more interesting. WAAC attitude can happen with a large collection if it is used only to take advantage of a regular opponent, to me this is even worse than simply creating a 'power gamer' list.

W0lf
04-11-2007, 09:17
Does size matter? some girls tell me that the size doesent matter


It's not the size that matters, it's how you use it!


Just ask any girl size doesn't matter. wink. wink.

Any girl that tells you size dosnt matter just thinks you have a small penis. Test it. Lie and say your small; watch what they say. Then tell them the truth and watch them recant their previous statement :P

anyway ontopic:

I think it less to do with size-of-army and more to do with pts-of-models.

Having 9,000 pts of chaos or 3k of chaos, lizardmen and dwarfs is all the same for variety.

Having a large colelction can give you an advantage should you choose to use it, and to be honest its a perfectly fair advantage. Why shouldnt you use YOUR models that YOU paid for and that YOU want to enjoy. People seem to think that because tournaments are one list only that pick up games should be the same. Out of 5 regular opponents 2 of them change their list everygame. Which do i prefer to play? The varied list obviously.

To answer the Questions, 'Does size (of collection) matter?'

Size of collection only matters to one person, the owner. Obviously then the answer will vary from player to player as is with all opinions. The only really answer to this question is does size of collection matter to you?

I think it dosnt.

I can see why people like large forces to choose from, you can play around, swap and change and you dont have to play the same list over and over. Thats cool.

I dont however agree that it gives you more of a advantage then say a fully ironed out, maxed out, tried and tested then tested some more cheesy list. Playing one 2k list can give you more of a advantage because you can gain near maximum potential from the list.

So the 'unfair advantage' out of the way, why dosnt it matter to me?

Well i found a way around getting bored of playing the same list over and over again. I just go magic heavy.

Magic is by far my favourite phase/part of the game. It also varies from game to game. What spells you roll on what wizards, what army you face and what magic resistance you encounter all chnage the way you play. That is my way of making games fun. I can see the cool advantage of having a large collection, i also understand that i could have a large colelction that is also magic heavy, however id rather have 2 2k armies then one 4k army.

Crazy Harborc
05-11-2007, 03:55
I really, really LIKE having and using lots of armies, units, minies in whichever game system I use.:angel: Um, I HAVE been playing with AND collecting minies over 43 years. (Had toys soldiers for 11 years before that)

Gorbad Ironclaw
05-11-2007, 09:02
IMHO, opponents should not be able to "know" what minies/models/units and their quanities, that I will place on the field because they saw the army before in previous games.;)


Why not? It doesn't bothers me. I almost always use the same list, and certainly the same core list. Occasionally I'll change some of the support elements, but if I do I'll almost always have talked to my mates about it first, so it's a rare game where I have any surprises.

I just takes it as a challenge. Granted, most of us don't actually build armies specifically to counter one another, but if they do, that's fine too. I'll just see how my army does in response to that.