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Temmy
02-11-2007, 03:34
Lets assume for a moment that the Emperor wins the final struggle with Chaos, and his mind and soul unite, creating a new warp power that guides and protects Homo Sapiens Psychikus

What or who do you think will succeed the Emperor as the ruler of Humanity in the material universe? I have a possibly insane idea on who this could be.

SPOILER FOR FULGRIM
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Any being that suceeds the Emperor would have to be extremely powerful and have a perfect understanding of Chaos. Of all the entities in the human universe, I think only one fits the bill. The Thorians are fundamentally correct. Somewhere out there is a vessel for the physical reincarnation of the Emperor. This vessel would have to be extremely powerful and possessed of a singular knowledge and wisdom concerning Chaos.

This vessel already exists, the only problem is that it is being used by something else, namely a Daemon.

The vessel is Fulgrim.

A primarch is a perfect vessel for the Emperor's power. Fulgrim has something else going for him, namely he shares a mind with a Daemon. He understands Chaos better than any of his brethren who have either fallen to Chaos and are daemons, are dead, or would still remain all too human in their emotions and weaknesses.

Consider the following scenario:

Armageddon is occurring. Now imagine a situation where the Daemon possessing Fulgrim is somehow betrayed and cast out. Fulgrim repossesses his own body. He is no longer a primarch, he has become a super Illuminatus. He combines the powers of a primarch with perfect understanding and immunity to the lures of Chaos.

He sees the corpse upon the throne and knows what he must do. He plunges his sword into the Emperors chest. A moment of communion between father and son occurs. The Emperor pours his memories and knowledge and a fragment of his strength into Fulgrim, wakening long dormant powers in the primarch. Then the Emperor dies, his mind merging with his soul in the warp to complete his apotheosis.

The Adeptus Custodes see what has happened. They present him with the Emperors regalia. Then they drop to their knees, and hail the primarch "Ave Fulgrim!, Ave Fulgrim Imperator!, Ave! Ave!"

Fulgrim takes his father's armour and weapons and leads humanity in its final battle on earth, while the Emperor does battle in the warp. When it is done, Emperor Fulgrim ascends to the throne and leads humanity into its new age, guided and protected by the power of his father in the warp.

Khaine's Messenger
02-11-2007, 04:19
Well, Fulgrim's the only one in a position to become illuminated, so that's a possibility. I doubt he will absorb any fragment of the Emperor's power, though. The idea of a "successor" for the Emperor is rather odd. And I suppose I'm something of a grump when it comes to "new golden ages"....

Apocalypse
02-11-2007, 04:29
Fulgrim is traitor-scum. I've read the book too, as frankly he disgusted me. Suggesting that he have a place within the imperium, is heretical at best. I am perfectly satisfied to have him tortured for eternity, watching everything as an observer-stuck in a dark corner at the back of his mind.

Nazguire
02-11-2007, 04:58
Fulgrim may at this time be a good candidate for Super Illuminatus Level 4, but seeming as he lives on a 'Planet of Pleasure', hasn't been seen for millennia (due to him/his daemon having a great time on said planet) and that he has been squashed, tortured and beaten into the darkest corners of his mind since the Horus Heresy began, I don't think it is too likely that he will.

Plus, even if somehow he did shake off millennia of imprisonment, after causing so much suffering and death for the Imperium and being one of the main reasons the Imperium is like it is now (one of the original traitors, along with Horus, Mortarion and Angron) I don't think even if his hair was golden and standing on end, with his Super Kamehameha x 100 wiping out traitors left right and center, that the Imperium would be too welcoming of him.

If anything it'd cause an even more destructive civil war as the believers fight against the non-believers.

DantesInferno
02-11-2007, 05:13
He sees the corpse upon the throne and knows what he must do. He plunges his sword into the Emperors chest.....

The Adeptus Custodes see what has happened. They present him with the Emperors regalia. Then they drop to their knees, and hail the primarch "Ave Fulgrim!, Ave Fulgrim Imperator!, Ave! Ave!"

I suspect the Custodes, seeing anyone, let alone a Traitor Primarch, standing over the body of the Emperor would be much more inclined to kill the individual, rather than present him with the Emperor's 10 000 year old gear.

Nazguire
02-11-2007, 05:18
I suspect the Custodes, seeing anyone, let alone a Traitor Primarch, standing over the body of the Emperor would be much more inclined to kill the individual, rather than present him with the Emperor's 10 000 year old gear.

Try to kill anyone should be it. Anyone that can kill the Emperor would be quite able to crush the skulls of a few Custodes :)

Other then that, yes, I agree with you :eek:

DantesInferno
02-11-2007, 05:24
Try to kill anyone should be it. Anyone that can kill the Emperor would be quite able to crush the skulls of a few Custodes :)

Other then that, yes, I agree with you :eek:

In fairness, I did say that they'd be "inclined to kill" him, rather than specifying that they actually could...

Ktotwf
02-11-2007, 05:30
Uhh, yeah, lol, I wouldn't bet on ANYONE over a huge group of angry screaming Custodes. Not even a Primarch.

But more than anything, I am tired of all these stories where people can seem to just waltz into the Throne Room uninvited. The Emperor's throne room is the most well protected area in the galaxy, and NO ONE gets in without express written consent from both the Imperium and the NFL.

The_Patriot
02-11-2007, 05:39
Try to kill anyone should be it. Anyone that can kill the Emperor would be quite able to crush the skulls of a few Custodes :)

Other then that, yes, I agree with you :eek:

Given the state of the current fluff, Custodians would have an easy time with a Primarch. Primarchs aren't as bad arsed as they used to be and are roughly half the power of a Custodian is. Thus it would be, 1 Custodes=2 Primarchs=10 Marines. Custodians are now the most powerful of the Emperor's creations.

DantesInferno
02-11-2007, 05:54
Given the state of the current fluff, Custodians would have an easy time with a Primarch. Primarchs aren't as bad arsed as they used to be and are roughly half the power of a Custodian is. Thus it would be, 1 Custodes=2 Primarchs=10 Marines. Custodians are now the most powerful of the Emperor's creations.

Do you have a source for this?

If it were a fight between two Primarchs and a single member of the Adeptus Custodes, I'd be putting my money on the Primarchs.....

Ktotwf
02-11-2007, 05:56
Custodes are at a level of intermediate power between a Grey Knight and Primarch, at least that has been my interpretation from the various fluff tendencies.

The_Patriot
02-11-2007, 06:05
Do you have a source for this?

If it were a fight between two Primarchs and a single member of the Adeptus Custodes, I'd be putting my money on the Primarchs.....

After reading HH: CV again, I'll amend my statement. The Primarchs are still the most powerful, so here is the adjusted listing. 1 Primarch=2 Custodians=20 Marines. Thus, 1 Custodian still equals 10 Space Marines.

Kveld-Ulf
02-11-2007, 07:15
It's a sound idea, but heretical nonetheless! You see, the Imperium doesn't understand good ideas, they blindly worship. Unfortunately, even if Fulgrim did repent, and did free himself from his inner daemons (ha), I'm pretty sure he wouldn't be given the Rulership of Mankind. His record is a little bad. It's just like tax records, you can change, but they never go away.

reds8n
02-11-2007, 09:59
I suspect the Custodes, seeing anyone, let alone a Traitor Primarch, standing over the body of the Emperor would be much more inclined to kill the individual, rather than present him with the Emperor's 10 000 year old gear.


Especially when said person has a snake body and 4 arms.
Although I must confess a similar idea about Fulgrim returning, almost phoenix like perhaps,has crossed my mind. Couldn't see the ultramarines and their successor chapters being too impressed with the idea though. And it'd be an interesting conversation with the Iron Hands ..." yeah, about Ferrus...err ... you might want to sit down..."

malika
02-11-2007, 11:28
Somebody on this forum, I think it was Brusilov, had an interesting theory about Cypher. The theory believes that Cypher is on his way to Terra to kill the Emperor. Once the Emperor is killed and freed from his prison that is the Golden Throne his soul possesses Cypher. Cypher is basicly the vessel of the Emperor's soul. Chew on that one for a while! :D

DantesInferno
02-11-2007, 11:42
Somebody on this forum, I think it was Brusilov, had an interesting theory about Cypher. The theory believes that Cypher is on his way to Terra to kill the Emperor. Once the Emperor is killed and freed from his prison that is the Golden Throne his soul possesses Cypher. Cypher is basicly the vessel of the Emperor's soul. Chew on that one for a while! :D

It's not really that controversial a theory: Cypher could have come up with the idea if he had talked to any Inquisitors with a Thorian leaning in his 10 000 years of travels...

(Of course, what makes this particular theory noteworthy is that it was produced before the Thorian sourcebook was released!)

AbyssRaven
02-11-2007, 11:51
What about one of the Primarchs like Corax, Leman Russ or one of the many others who decided to suddenly up and leave?

edit: unrelated side note, i wonder if said primarchs paid child support for those 10,000 years, since,t he space mariens are technically their sons..

MorningLightMountain
02-11-2007, 12:28
Given the state of the current fluff, Custodians would have an easy time with a Primarch. Primarchs aren't as bad arsed as they used to be and are roughly half the power of a Custodian is. Thus it would be, 1 Custodes=2 Primarchs=10 Marines. Custodians are now the most powerful of the Emperor's creations.

I think thats sounds like the Custardians are a trifle overpowered :p

Although I'm sure anyone entering the Throne Room would get their just deserts :p

I'm sure upon sight of the Emperor their legs would go to jelly, but the Custardians could definitely whip them :p They'd get creamed!

:angel:

Temmy
02-11-2007, 12:31
But more than anything, I am tired of all these stories where people can seem to just waltz into the Throne Room uninvited. The Emperor's throne room is the most well protected area in the galaxy, and NO ONE gets in without express written consent from both the Imperium and the NFL.

Well, he wouldn't just waltz in..this is armageddon after all. Fulgrim would strive to be among those who assault the Throne room.

AbyssRaven
02-11-2007, 12:37
Where is the fluff about custodians btw?
been out of the loop awhile and always interested in them

Kriegschmidt
02-11-2007, 12:41
I think thats sounds like the Custardians are a trifle overpowered :p

Although I'm sure anyone entering the Throne Room would get their just deserts :p

I'm sure upon sight of the Emperor their legs would go to jelly, but the Custardians could definitely whip them :p They'd get creamed!

:angel:

I'm pudding you on my ignore list.

Infiltraitor
02-11-2007, 12:49
It has crossed my mind that maybe the original Primarch project was just the Emperor's way of researching a new and better form for him to be re-incarnated into when he perished. As I recall for all his massive and god-like mental powers, he was still just a man physically (although I might be wrong on that one.)

As for Fulgrim, he had more than enough chances to turn things around and chose to pass up each one of them, so he got what he deserved.

DantesInferno
02-11-2007, 22:21
Well, he wouldn't just waltz in..this is armageddon after all. Fulgrim would strive to be among those who assault the Throne room.

In that case, there isn't going to be much of humanity left for the newly-reborn Fulgrim/Emperor to lead. You can be damn sure that all the Imperial forces on Terra (and within a few thousand light years) would die to the last man before they let a Traitor Primarch into the Throne Room. So the only way that Fulgrim is going to be able to get in there is at the head of a massive Chaos army (probably one lead by Abaddon or the other Traitor Primarchs). Which makes the new Emperor's chances of leading humanity into a new age of prosperity rather small.

graveaccomplice
02-11-2007, 22:39
An Inquisitor marked as a traitor managed, although I forget his name at this point. He had a squat and an assassin that shaped into a genestealer for henchmen.

Sorry I don't have more details. Even the book glossed over the actual break in. All the book stated was that it took a great deal of time, making use of the over-redundant beuracracy to sneak in. His discussion with the emporer didn't help much either. The book gave the impression of a fractured consciousness that couldn't pull itself together. Too many voices, too many opinions.

Damien 1427
02-11-2007, 23:29
An Inquisitor marked as a traitor managed, although I forget his name at this point. He had a squat and an assassin that shaped into a genestealer for henchmen.

To be fair, the Draco Trilogy isn't exactly up to date with the fluff. The Squat is a dead give-away.

reds8n
03-11-2007, 13:44
and Draco and co. are guided/helped by the Emperor.

iamkion132
03-11-2007, 23:35
Interesting idea, it would make for a good alternative universe story line to see it all unfold.

Trilbydude@Dragon
23-11-2007, 10:06
Aaaah, but surely the emperor would know about fulgrim? wouldn't he guide HIM, too?

Wazzahamma
23-11-2007, 10:17
2 custodes= 1 primarch? Didn't Horus slaughter half a dozen of them in False Gods?

Gorbad Ironclaw
23-11-2007, 10:43
To be fair, the Draco Trilogy isn't exactly up to date with the fluff. The Squat is a dead give-away.


And even for it's time, it is, IMO, rather questionable. Personally I see it more as a sort of alternate version of 40k.

It's certainly exploring the wilds of 40k.

The_Patriot
23-11-2007, 11:34
2 custodes= 1 primarch? Didn't Horus slaughter half a dozen of them in False Gods?

It was all in his mind is how I view that part of the book. His mind imagined how tough the Custodes were and the warp gave it substance. It doesn't indicate that it was true concerning how strong the Custodes are.

Grindgodgrind
23-11-2007, 11:49
What about one of the Primarchs like Corax, Leman Russ or one of the many others who decided to suddenly up and leave?

From what I understand, one of the criteria to be an Illuminatus is to have been possessed by a daemon and fought them off. Thus making said person immune to the lure of chaos.

Commander Dante
23-11-2007, 14:22
The return of any Primarch would cause confusion and civil war everywhere. Also considering in terms of a legitmate new ruler it would be one of the returning loyalist primarchs. If Leman Russ suddenly came home, by Birth?right it would go to him....that is a scary and dark future for the imperium.....

Sarke
23-11-2007, 14:48
What about Magnus? Wouldn't he be able to leade the Empire through the darkness of the warp.

Commander Dante
23-11-2007, 14:50
Magnus was never possesed, and he was the Primarch that was most betrayed by the emperor he has no motivation or inclination to save the imperium.

Sarke
23-11-2007, 14:58
Except the possibility of redemption in the eyes of his father, the Emperor.

Warpcrafter
23-11-2007, 15:35
The dominion of chaos is inevitable. One day a black crusade will make it to "Holy Terra" and they will have a great big parade through the streets with the so-called emperor's corpse on a stick for their standard.:skull:

StanMcKim
23-11-2007, 15:46
I think the Cypher theory is the better one here.
1. The name. A cypher is a key. To what? Unlocking the Emperor's prison within his own flesh.
2. Why does Cypher help Chaos? Because he wants them to invade Earth. Its the only way for him to get in. No member of the Imperium would ever let him set foot naer the throne room. But, if it were breached, he could get in and do what needed to be done.
3. Why does Cypher help the Imperium? Because deep down he is a loyalist. He sees the bigger picture and understands the sacrifices he has to make, but thats no reason for others to suffer.
-Stan

Commander Dante
23-11-2007, 15:49
Except the possibility of redemption in the eyes of his father, the Emperor.

Why would Magnus seek redemption? The Emperor forbade him from useing his powers, and then sends Leman Russ (the primarch that probably gave him nooogies till his scalp bled) to capture him and return to terra. For all Magnus knows it was the Emperor himself that gave Russ the order to sack Prospero and even he did find out the truth that it was Horus that sent the orders it was too late he already found Tzeentch who saved him and his legion from oblivion. Tzeench offered something the Emperor never could: ulimited knowledge and the power to wield it. Magnus is content as Jabba the Hut after eating his stripper.

FlashGordon
23-11-2007, 23:25
Fulgrim has gawdamn four arms and a snake body! No human would ever let itself be led by such a mutant. lol

Mort
24-11-2007, 07:20
I really have doubts that it would be possible for fulgrims body to live without the demon in it. I mean,its totally different from its original form,and full of warp magic and stuff,so think it would just come apart without a demon in it.

Fulgrim himself must be mad beyond anything after 10k years of possesion and beeing witness of the imperiums demise.

He wont make a good emperor,i think. even if he isnt insane and can live without the demon in him,well, mutants and the imperium,wasnt there somthing?

Captain Gawain
24-11-2007, 08:15
In the end of 'Fulgrim', as the daemon that possesses him is gazing at the painting of the fallen primarch, I was left with the impression that at least part of Fulgrim's soul was trapped in the painting; forever to gaze upon the carnage of his legions first willful sacrifice.

Perhaps, if this small piece of his "essence" can be freed, perhaps by an astartes destroying the picture, or even a lowly guardsman seeing the pain in the primarchs face reaching up to touch it, that small portion of Fulgrim can "ride" another. Not as a posessing spirit, but as a guiding force, one that can lend a small amount of his power to his new "vessel".

A redemptive quest by proxy...I like the idea of a traitor primarch attempting to redeem himself, and this is an interesting idea...kudos for thinking it up!

fracas
24-11-2007, 15:20
interesting hypothesis
it premis that only the once possessed can truly know and thus fight chaos
however, this still leaves the problem of being able to act beyond the physical shell of the vessel.
what the emperor needs to do is to be released completely from his physical shell and exist as a pure warp entity, then he would not only understand the warp, he would also be one of the greater(greatest) of the warp entities.

StanMcKim
25-11-2007, 01:53
Perhaps, if this small piece of his "essence" can be freed, perhaps by an astartes destroying the picture, or even a lowly guardsman seeing the pain in the primarchs face reaching up to touch it, that small portion of Fulgrim can "ride" another. Not as a posessing spirit, but as a guiding force, one that can lend a small amount of his power to his new "vessel".


The whole painting thing is straight out of The Picture of Dorian Grey, by Oscar Wilde. In it, the character Dorian Grey keeps the picture locked up because it contains his soul; the portrait grows old and ugly as Dorian does more horrible things while his body stays as young and vibrant as when the painting was originally done.



*SPOILER of Wilde's Novel*

















In the end Dorian destroys the painting, which kills him. If this holds true for Fulgrim, destroying the painting would certainly free him but it would also kill him. It is very probable that destroying the painting would be the only way to kill the possessed Fulgrim.
We also have to keep in mind that Fulgrim wasn't possessed until the very end. Disturbed and influenced by the Daemon, yes, but not fully possessed. He did what he did of his own will. He is essentially a "Darth Vader", someone who knows that they have become evil but is too late to really mend their ways. If Fulgrim is ever freed he would have to die. Anything else just wouldn't seem right.
Thats my two cents!
-Stan

Londinium
06-12-2007, 20:14
Fulgrim may at this time be a good candidate for Super Illuminatus Level 4, but seeming as he lives on a 'Planet of Pleasure', hasn't been seen for millennia (due to him/his daemon having a great time on said planet) and that he has been squashed, tortured and beaten into the darkest corners of his mind since the Horus Heresy began, I don't think it is too likely that he will.

Plus, even if somehow he did shake off millennia of imprisonment, after causing so much suffering and death for the Imperium and being one of the main reasons the Imperium is like it is now (one of the original traitors, along with Horus, Mortarion and Angron) I don't think even if his hair was golden and standing on end, with his Super Kamehameha x 100 wiping out traitors left right and center, that the Imperium would be too welcoming of him.

If anything it'd cause an even more destructive civil war as the believers fight against the non-believers.

Any Primarch returning would cause a massive civil war in the Imperium, even if they were loyalists, far too many people (High Lords, Ecclesiarchy for starters) have vested interests in keeping the status quo to hand over all their power to some Primarch who has in their mind abandoned the Imperium for 10k yrs.

As an aside, I personally don't believe that Fulgrim was trapped in the painting, I think that was just the Daemon messing with him and he'd return Fulgrim to his body in time, the Daemon stated to Horus that he'd enjoy torturing Fulgrim immensely, I doubt he'd give up this possibility of immense pleasure immediately after Isstvan V before he's even reached the tip of the pleasure iceberg, Fulgrim's still in his body a mute witness to the terror portrayed in his name in my opinion.

I reckon his body could hold together if the daemon was exorcised considering it's widely rumoured that some warp power was used in the creation of the Primarches, in fact I wouldn't be surprised to see it revert to normal over time as the daemonic influence dissapated, it's got to be remembered that Primarches aren't humans, they are essentially the human version of Greater Daemons, Warseer members has a habit of toning down the way they are portrayed far too much for whatever reason, like when people complained about Fulgrim killing an Avatar, which was nonsense as the way the Primarches are portrayed they are the equals of Avatars.

Regardless it aint going to happen, in the very unlikely event that Fulgrim is freed and isn't as mad as a badger the Imperium would never have him back, at best he'd just be a rogue force campaigning for the Imperium but never accepted, and only tolerated during times of crisis.

Ahrimanator
24-01-2008, 11:16
Interesting stuff. What makes Fulgrim so special though?
Lets go through the Primarchs and evaluate their candidacy-
Horus- Dead.
Mortarion- Some Plague Planet in the Warp worshipping Nurgle- NO!
Fulgrim- Possessed by a daemon, been in the Eye of Terror for 10,000 years- NO!
Lorgar- Need I say more? First to worship the Chaos Gods- NO!
Angron- Big Gribbly Daemon Prince- NO!
Alpharius- Now there's an interesting one- Will have to wait for the new "Legion" book
Peturabo- Hmm. Going to say no due to the "Iron Cage" thing and the killing of Imperial Fists
Magnus- Daemon Primarch of Tzeentch in the Eye of Terror- NO!
Konrad Kurze- Dead.

Roboute Guilliman- In stasis after Alpharius nearly killed him, much like the emperor...- Hmm. Will have to wait for the ultramarines book
Rogal Dorn- Disappeared into the warp while chasing stuff
Vulkan- Killed on Isstvan V? or did he make it? Salamanders book, please.
Jaghtai Khan- Disappeared into the warp while chasing stuff... seems popular
Corax- Disappeared (into the Ravenspire?) after saying "Nevermore"
Lion'El Johnson- Trapped in the centre of the Tower of Angels, being kept alive by the Watchers.
Ferrus Manus- Killed by Fulgrim.
Sanguinius- Killed By Horus
Leman Russ- Disappeared into the warp while chasing stuff. Okay this is getting silly now.

I think we need all the Horus heresy books first before we can decide, but Guilliman looks the strongest imperial candidate, having written the codex astartes, or Johnson, having achieved the most victories of any remaining primarch. If there is a traitor candidate (oxymoron, anybody?) then i'm going to go for alpharius as he's the only one who seems, mislead, by horus more than any ill-will towards the emperor.

Any comments, corrections and opinions are very welcome (if not necessary lol)

Kriegschmidt
24-01-2008, 11:37
I think we need all the Horus heresy books first before we can decide, but Guilliman looks the strongest imperial candidate, having written the codex astartes....

Having Guilliman as the Emperor would be like having Richard Branson as prime minister :eek:

Kage2020
24-01-2008, 13:06
And even for it's time, it is, IMO, rather questionable. Personally I see it more as a sort of alternate version of 40k.
Maybe. I certainly don't see it that way. In fact, it's one of the few - perhaps the only - series that actually explores significant happenings in the 40k universe, or addresses some of the core concepts. Even the best of the modern Inquisitor-based novels don't have that kind of grand sweep.

As to Cypher? Heck, the Arthurian overtones are practically shouting out...

Kage

Commander Dante
24-01-2008, 15:27
Interesting stuff. What makes Fulgrim so special though?
Lets go through the Primarchs and evaluate their candidacy-
Horus- Dead.
Mortarion- Some Plague Planet in the Warp worshipping Nurgle- NO!
Fulgrim- Possessed by a daemon, been in the Eye of Terror for 10,000 years- NO!
Lorgar- Need I say more? First to worship the Chaos Gods- NO!
Angron- Big Gribbly Daemon Prince- NO!
Alpharius- Now there's an interesting one- Will have to wait for the new "Legion" book
Peturabo- Hmm. Going to say no due to the "Iron Cage" thing and the killing of Imperial Fists
Magnus- Daemon Primarch of Tzeentch in the Eye of Terror- NO!
Konrad Kurze- Dead.

Roboute Guilliman- In stasis after Alpharius nearly killed him, much like the emperor...- Hmm. Will have to wait for the ultramarines book
Rogal Dorn- Disappeared into the warp while chasing stuff
Vulkan- Killed on Isstvan V? or did he make it? Salamanders book, please.
Jaghtai Khan- Disappeared into the warp while chasing stuff... seems popular
Corax- Disappeared (into the Ravenspire?) after saying "Nevermore"
Lion'El Johnson- Trapped in the centre of the Tower of Angels, being kept alive by the Watchers.
Ferrus Manus- Killed by Fulgrim.
Sanguinius- Killed By Horus
Leman Russ- Disappeared into the warp while chasing stuff. Okay this is getting silly now.



Any comments, corrections and opinions are very welcome (if not necessary lol)

Guilliman was almost killed by Fulgrim not Alpharius.
Alpharius was rumoroed to be killed by Guilliman.
Jaghatai Khan dissapeared in the Webway chasing dark Eldar not the warp.
Corax and Leman Russ are both reported to have gone into the Eye Of Terror.
According to older Fluff Rogal Dorn was dead and his skeleton was on the Phallanx or Terra, newer Fluff says it is only his hand.
Lion El Johnson is in stasis or imprisoned if you want to go with the traitor theory in the Rock, i have no idea what the tower of angels is.

Wolf Scout Ewan
24-01-2008, 20:17
One thing we must consider is that normal humans bodies cannot hold the power of a deamon for long without it breaking the body apart.

Poor Fulgrim was possessed long before he realised. The conduit was that sword given to him, the only reason why the deamon didnt get total control of him straight away. The deamon slowly ate away at Fulgrims resolve, appealed to his pride.

So, Fulgrim is still in there, being taunted by that Deamon. The poor thing is going to be nuttier than a box of frogs.

The Anarchist
24-01-2008, 21:22
just like to drop a little persnal thought in on this thread, whilst all theories about possible "sucsesors" to the Emperor is bit weird. however for anyone thinking about Fulgrim; he betrayed his brothers, killed his most loved brother, destroyed the empire he spent centuries building and thousands of his sons lives in doing so.... and gods know what else. Do you actualy think he's still going to be completly sane???

Also has a weirder side note, all the Big E was is a stupidly powerfull Pskyer, so if a Psyker with enough came power came along whats to stop him pretending to be the Emperor? he coudl esily give off a godly aura, fool all but the best and those he could jsut kill, only area he might lack is the technological knowledge....but if he's clever might be able to get away with it.

SPARTAN1ON1
24-01-2008, 21:35
i believe its a shame that fulgrim is trapped in the daemon hes loyal and would be a great asset to the imperium of man but his chances of reaching terra alive are slim hed probably be blown out of space by defense lasers plus he wud have to get rid of the daemone essence whcih wud be pretty hard if u ask me

Rockerfella
24-01-2008, 22:03
i believe its a shame that fulgrim is trapped in the daemon hes loyal and would be a great asset to the imperium of man but his chances of reaching terra alive are slim hed probably be blown out of space by defense lasers plus he wud have to get rid of the daemone essence whcih wud be pretty hard if u ask me

Howdy SPARTAN, welcome to Warseer.

Indeed, Fulgrim would somehow have to get into the palace in order to complete the OP's statement. Worse than that, however, he would somehow have to get into the SOL system without being detected etc. Thats going to be really tough i'd imagine.

From what i've gathered on other threads, the Custodes really 'are all that', and with that being the case, Primarch or not, Mr Custode and his buddies are going to beat you to death with your own health bar. Not good.

So, fulgrim would somehow have to defeat the deamon that possesses him, something that he can't do on his own, otherwise he'd have alreay done it. So, its a tough one.

For me? I like the Cypher idea. Although i've still no idea or clue who he is or even his story. I just like it. So there.

Ghost Of Caliban
25-01-2008, 02:15
Alot of stuff gets bandied about by Cyper, and he is a very good unexplored charactor, one of my favourites.
Now remembering that in decent of angels Cypher is NOT a name, it is a title, your name and your past life ceases to exist so you can better serve the traditions of the order(not neccesarily the Dark Angels) and uphold the laws of Caliban...
Other rumours include that he has the Lion sword on his back, that he has the other half of a C'tan phase sword on his back and is trying to unite and create as many new Dark Angels as he can (see Angels of darkness)
In every chaos codex untill the latest release he has been seen as an evil power, escaping death and the deathwing with the help of the chaos gods that saved him all those years ago on Caliban...my question is what if it is not the gods of the warp that save him but the god of mankind.
He could be the "key" to unlocking the heresy of Jonson, gaining the forgiveness of the fallen in the emp eyes and also with the sword he carries C'tan or no be able to free the emperor...after that anything could happen....

Francis29
25-01-2008, 08:09
i don't think that cypher is trying to get to the emporer. if he can escape the deathwing he can get anywhere. he hasn't got to the throne room yet as far as we know.

Ahrimanator
25-01-2008, 10:00
I agree, cypher can use the warp teleport jobbie, but then again this might be blocked by the emperor's magical powers of GET OUT!

Commander Dante, thanks for the corrections. Truly my fluff knowledge pales in comparision to yours!

And Kriegschmidt- Having Beardy as Prime Minister is a great idea! Monster Raving Looney Party, away!

Brother-Captain De Angele
25-01-2008, 10:19
Lets assume for a moment that the Emperor wins the final struggle with Chaos, and his mind and soul unite, creating a new warp power that guides and protects Homo Sapiens Psychikus

What or who do you think will succeed the Emperor as the ruler of Humanity in the material universe? I have a possibly insane idea on who this could be.

SPOILER FOR FULGRIM
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Any being that suceeds the Emperor would have to be extremely powerful and have a perfect understanding of Chaos. Of all the entities in the human universe, I think only one fits the bill. The Thorians are fundamentally correct. Somewhere out there is a vessel for the physical reincarnation of the Emperor. This vessel would have to be extremely powerful and possessed of a singular knowledge and wisdom concerning Chaos.

This vessel already exists, the only problem is that it is being used by something else, namely a Daemon.

The vessel is Fulgrim.

A primarch is a perfect vessel for the Emperor's power. Fulgrim has something else going for him, namely he shares a mind with a Daemon. He understands Chaos better than any of his brethren who have either fallen to Chaos and are daemons, are dead, or would still remain all too human in their emotions and weaknesses.

Consider the following scenario:

Armageddon is occurring. Now imagine a situation where the Daemon possessing Fulgrim is somehow betrayed and cast out. Fulgrim repossesses his own body. He is no longer a primarch, he has become a super Illuminatus. He combines the powers of a primarch with perfect understanding and immunity to the lures of Chaos.

He sees the corpse upon the throne and knows what he must do. He plunges his sword into the Emperors chest. A moment of communion between father and son occurs. The Emperor pours his memories and knowledge and a fragment of his strength into Fulgrim, wakening long dormant powers in the primarch. Then the Emperor dies, his mind merging with his soul in the warp to complete his apotheosis.

The Adeptus Custodes see what has happened. They present him with the Emperors regalia. Then they drop to their knees, and hail the primarch "Ave Fulgrim!, Ave Fulgrim Imperator!, Ave! Ave!"

Fulgrim takes his father's armour and weapons and leads humanity in its final battle on earth, while the Emperor does battle in the warp. When it is done, Emperor Fulgrim ascends to the throne and leads humanity into its new age, guided and protected by the power of his father in the warp.

dude have you seen fulgrim lately? he's ****ed up man he would still look like a daemon prince even if he was emperor and either slannesh offered alot more than humanity/the emperor ever could. here is what fulgrim currently looks like would you worship him as your god emperor?
http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/mediawiki/images/2/2f/Fulgrim.jpg

warflag
26-01-2008, 00:33
Im also completely with the cypher idea. Cypher is not only a number, it also is defined as a process. It describes an energy transfer. He therefore might not be the vessel, but the catalyst for the exchange. If he is gathering new dark angels, than maybe he creates an army that opens a way to terra, and afterwards maybe protects it in the transfer process. There is fluff saying that a secret organisation knows something about this process, and is coordinating the happenings. My question is, what happend to the other two primarchs. It appears to me that they or their whereabouts are playing a role in this story. As to my understanding the emperor gave away something in creating the primarchs, these two or some of the remnants of their chapters are needed to complete the reincarnation. I have absolutely no idea why the inquisition should delete all records of these two chapters, when horus has already commited the most malicious treachery possible. There must be a reason. And probably those who did it have not deleted it for reasons of heresy, but to hide a secret that would, if known, endanger the reincarnation.

Any ideas to that?

This would also explain, why cypher has not yet entered terra (apart from the webway being blocked). Its possibly a question of timing. Some elements seem to be missing up till now.

aximand
26-01-2008, 02:34
Well the Imperium is not the way it used to be pre-heresy.
I think anyone who would claim the Throne would not be accepted by the powers that actually rule Terra-be it state ,religion ,the army ,and following the displeasure of the easily controlled people.A civil war would erupt that would ultimately destroy the Imperium.(and the Eldar gals would be so happy with themselves-LOL).
And have you ever considered that the powers that rule Terra hide the records of the 2 missing Primarchs not to protect the forthcoming incarnation ,but to prevent it!!!
Just some food,cheers!

DantesInferno
26-01-2008, 02:44
My question is, what happend to the other two primarchs. It appears to me that they or their whereabouts are playing a role in this story. As to my understanding the emperor gave away something in creating the primarchs, these two or some of the remnants of their chapters are needed to complete the reincarnation. I have absolutely no idea why the inquisition should delete all records of these two chapters, when horus has already commited the most malicious treachery possible. There must be a reason. And probably those who did it have not deleted it for reasons of heresy, but to hide a secret that would, if known, endanger the reincarnation.

Any ideas to that?

There's a major flaw to that theory: records of the missing Legions weren't deleted by the Inquisition after the Heresy, they were deleted by the Emperor before the Heresy.

aximand
26-01-2008, 02:53
@DantesInferno:
Are you sure this is canon?
I mean there is not even a slightest fragment of what happened to them?
And why would the Emperor actually care to delete all files on them?
AAArgh ,me 'ead!

DantesInferno
26-01-2008, 03:22
@DantesInferno:
Are you sure this is canon?
I mean there is not even a slightest fragment of what happened to them?
And why would the Emperor actually care to delete all files on them?
AAArgh ,me 'ead!

Well, to quote from reds8n's summary of the BL short story The Lightning Tower:


The next scene is Dorn pondering this as he strolls through the palace, which is as ever busy and full of people. He considers various Primarchs and whether he is afraid of them. His walk takes him to the Investiary, a 2 kilometer wide Amphitheatre open to the night sky. Here are TWENTY plinths with statues on. " THE SECOND AND ELEVENTH PLINTHS HAD BEEN VACANT FOR A LONG TIME. NO ONE EVER SPOKE OF THOSE TWO ABSENT BROTHERS. THEIR SEPARATE TRAGEDIES HAD SEEMED LIKE ABERRATIONS. HAD THEY, IN FACT, BEEN WARNINGS THAT NO ONE HAD HEEDED?"

(found <here> (http://warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=104972)).

So according to that, the second and eleventh Primarchs have been "deleted" for a substantial amount of time before the Heresy, and only the Emperor would have the authority for that. It's also far more plausible that the Legions' records be deleted before, rather than after the Heresy.

As for why? Here are some possibilities:
a) The Legions were defeated in battle and the Primarchs either killed there or executed for their failure.
b) The Primarchs and their Legions had irredeemable genetic flaws, so that they had to be put down. The Emperor obviously wouldn't want it to be widely known that the Astartes were prone to widespread genetic failure while they were out there conquering an empire in his name.
c) The Primarchs grew up on Chaos-worshipping worlds, or were drawn to the worship of Chaos early in the Great Crusade. They and their Legions were killed and records deleted to hush up the threat of Chaos.

And I'm sure there are plenty more alternatives people can dream up. That's just to get you started.

sabreu
26-01-2008, 03:54
Funnily, everyone always assumes they must have done something horrendous. In all probability, the emperor probably expunged their records as a post mortem honour. If they were destroyed and their primarchs killed, something not heard of at that time, might have warrant great sorrow, regret, and tragedy. Enough for them to honoured in such a way.

Baltar
26-01-2008, 03:54
The very fact that Dorn thinks that their tragedies may have been a warning seems to indicate that their downfalls were related to Chaos or demonic activity in some subtle way.

BTW, the Lightning Tower is really good and answers A LOT of questions.

sabreu
26-01-2008, 04:14
Why is every threat, tragedy, imminent evil the work of Chaos related?

Baltar
26-01-2008, 04:17
Why is every threat, tragedy, imminent evil the work of Chaos related?

Have you heard of the Tyranids, Necrons, Orks?

sabreu
26-01-2008, 04:18
Necrons are evil, but tyranids are just monsters looking for food (horror) and Orks are just the barbarians at the gate (waaagh!)

Baltar
26-01-2008, 04:22
The Tyranids are evil on an intergalactic scale. Its hive fleets are like fingernails stretching across the universe

sabreu
26-01-2008, 04:25
So was humanity spreading through the stars by the logic. :p

logosloki
26-01-2008, 05:46
I just put down the two missing primarchs as an honour by GW to two legions that were demoted to chapters: Valedictors and I think crimson fists.

Funny about the whole fulgrim as the successor thing, I was just thinking of how to write that up into the background section earlier today but gave up once I couldn't think up the wording.

I think that fulgrim could do it, an illuminatus at that level could probabely repair their body first.

As for custodes, I put them on a power level on par with the grey knight, not above them, as I don't think they get out much, so while they'll have possibly un-paralleled tatical training and simulation, they need actual battle training. Actually I think the mentor legion could beat them, but they be special

sabreu
26-01-2008, 05:58
Is it really the custodes that are so bad ****, or the fact that to get to them you have to get through Terra's ungodly defenses, or if you were allowed to step foot on the planet it wouldn't be backed by more than a handful of your buddies?

logosloki
26-01-2008, 06:15
Is it really the custodes that are so bad ****, or the fact that to get to them you have to get through Terra's ungodly defenses, or if you were allowed to step foot on the planet it wouldn't be backed by more than a handful of your buddies?

This is also true, even if the custodes were slighty below marines in terms of power (note I put them at grey knight strength) the fact that you would either be on a full scale assault, or more than likely, on your own surrounded by them that you would lose

The_Patriot
26-01-2008, 11:38
I just put down the two missing primarchs as an honour by GW to two legions that were demoted to chapters: Valedictors and I think crimson fists.

Funny about the whole fulgrim as the successor thing, I was just thinking of how to write that up into the background section earlier today but gave up once I couldn't think up the wording.

I think that fulgrim could do it, an illuminatus at that level could probabely repair their body first.

As for custodes, I put them on a power level on par with the grey knight, not above them, as I don't think they get out much, so while they'll have possibly un-paralleled tatical training and simulation, they need actual battle training. Actually I think the mentor legion could beat them, but they be special

Except that the background states that the Custodes are more powerful then Space Marines and they are fighting below the palace in the webway to keep it clear of chaos incursions. They've been doing the job with Sisters of Silence ever since Magnus blew out the psychic wards.

Critias
26-01-2008, 12:43
Is it really the custodes that are so bad ****, or the fact that to get to them you have to get through Terra's ungodly defenses, or if you were allowed to step foot on the planet it wouldn't be backed by more than a handful of your buddies?
Both, really.

Ahrimanator
26-01-2008, 15:11
The missing legions I once found some fluff on-
Legion II is either the Iron Hearts (with a named Primarch, Rubineck) from "Hell in a Bottle" in the Black Library Analogy "Enter The Maelstrom", or The Valedictors, who saw action on the Eastern Fringe against Orks, Eldar, and traitors during the Heresy.
Legion XI- Horus apparently goes back in time and cracks the incubation capsule of Primarch XI before the Primarchs are scattered to the warp (the effect this has on the primarch is inconclusive). Before doing this, he puts his hand on XI's capsule and feels "the untapped glories that might have lain ahead for what grew within, but knowing that they would never come to pass". So it seems like he's dead.

I have spoken to a GW manager, who says "There's no fluff for the missing legions, and they're there so that people can create their own. Any BL stuff is just that, the writers creating their own."
Seeing as how Horus *killed?* the XI Primarch or somehow prevented him from being born/fathering a legion, seems like a similar thing is going to happen to the II legion.

For the record, my money's on the fantasy and 4Ok worlds originally being interchangeable, then the gap closing (like the parallel universes from doctor who), and Sigmar being one, and Belakor being the other, the first primarch to fall to chaos.

Commander Dante
26-01-2008, 16:53
I think one of the Primarchs had attempted to assasinate Emperor, as in personaly try and kill him. The Primarch may have been just overly ambitious and hoping to sieze control of the Imperium. Most Primarchs were top dog on thier planet/system wide empire, They must have felt some sort of resentment or jelousy taking orders from someone else. I can Imagine one of the missing Primarch's being a glutonous terrible ruler similiar to Nero or Caligula. They would have been a stain on the Empire.

Johnnyfrej
28-01-2008, 00:12
Fulgrim is traitor-scum. I've read the book too, as frankly he disgusted me. Suggesting that he have a place within the imperium, is heretical at best. I am perfectly satisfied to have him tortured for eternity, watching everything as an observer-stuck in a dark corner at the back of his mind.
You make the Emperor proud.

-Private Jon

Colonel Marbi Chora
10-04-2008, 18:37
Also has a weirder side note, all the Big E was is a stupidly powerfull Pskyer, so if a Psyker with enough came power came along whats to stop him pretending to be the Emperor? he coudl esily give off a godly aura, fool all but the best and those he could jsut kill, only area he might lack is the technological knowledge....but if he's clever might be able to get away with it.

It's not that. The most high level psyker known to the imperium was the God Emperor- the highest that can be attained now is Alpha-plus, still very powerful, but they can still be killed. In the Eisenhorn Trilogy there is an example of an Alpha-plus psyker, Esarhaddon. Compared to the emperor, he is very weak.

And anyways, enough Untouchables, such as the Distaff, could easily negate the horrifying powers of an Alpha-plus Psyker.

Anyways, considering the Emperor's Successor, I have to put my money on Gueilliman. Even though he is in a statis field, and by imperial technology IMPOSSIBLE, he is healing his wounds that he suffered at the hands of the traightor Primarch fulgrim. He's probably going to be the one to rise up from the dead and ascend, if the massive beurocracy of the imperium dosen't bog him down with all that red tape and paperwork.

If not, probably one of the missing primarchs will return. Maybe the second "unknown' Primarch, or one that disappeared into the warp/webway/ eye of terror. I mean, Leman Russ said he WOULD return at "the wolftime", God-Emperor knows when THAT will be.

My opinion said,
CMC

Drachenfell
11-04-2008, 14:59
Wait wait wait.

So you think a Custode is equal to or near to a Primarch in power? Have you people gone mad on exorberant amounts of mountain dew! Is the sugar rush clouding your minds? o.o;

But seriously. ;P Primarches are meant to be demi gods. Sons of the Emperor. Far removed from space marines in terms of power. The Custodes are to a space marines what space marines are to humans. They are not however anywhere near primarches. If they were and 2 custodes is the equivalent in power to a primarch then the heresy would have been very very very short indeed considering the Emperor had a legion of them.

The fight in the Emperor's webway was a short one and they could not hold it which is why the Emperor sealed it beneath the Golden Throne. The custodes are an awesomely powerful fighting force. Certainly the strongest and purest of all marine forces. But they are just marines. Primarches may as well be a seperate race from Marines as Horus's apothecary may tell you.

Terra is so heavily defended partly because it has an entire battlefleet dedicated to it's protection. Also if you think of Luna imagine the deathstar. Because that's pretty much what the Imperium has turned it into. It's just a massive battlestation. Holy Terra is also protected by several palaces including the Imperial Palace which takes up the continent of Europa and has never been breached, has two imperator titans built into the gates, and was constructed by the greatest siege master ever, Dorn. Not to mention it's populated by a legion of custodes, sisters of silence and a number of detachments of other space marine chapters who hold honourary postings at the Imperial palace for their work in the heresy such as the Imperial Fists and Blood Angels.

All of these components make Holy Terra pretty much impregnable. As does the Emperor of Mankind sitting on top of it all.

Emperor's successor? I'd like to think the Emperor is just the end of it. I don't know if I'd like the idea of anyone taking over from him since no one really has the power to be all the things that he is. Though if I was goign to put my money on a successor or someone to govern in his stead I'd have to say all 20 Primarches were probably already intended to do so. Each held a small part of what made the Emperor great. Some were incredible strategists such as Guilleman. Others were great fighters such as Sanguinius and Angron. And Magnus perhaps the second most powerful psyker underneath the Emperor in the galaxy. The Emperor encompassed all sphere's of war and governance and managed to be a powerful enough psyker to keep the Imperium together.

I think perhaps in creating the primarches one of his thoughts for them was that if he died, the 20 of them together would be able to carry on his work. But Fulgrim? I'm not sure. I know he didn't mean to kill Ferrus. But he did side with Horus against the Emperor demon or no. His actions were his own. In that I don't think he should be the Emperor's successor.

Lord Dante
22-04-2008, 13:51
After reading HH: CV again, I'll amend my statement. The Primarchs are still the most powerful, so here is the adjusted listing. 1 Primarch=2 Custodians=20 Marines. Thus, 1 Custodian still equals 10 Space Marines.

ive read all the HH novels and collected visions about 10 times.

At no point is there any basis for how powerfull a Custode is when compared to a Primarch.

The only point of reference would be in HHCV Book 4. Dorn and some Custodes TP aboard Horus's flagship, many of the Custodes get killed but Dorn continues to survive, id assume because hes tougher.

I think its hard to quantify these kind of comparisons.
A custode is better than SM, we know that, by how much? unkown, saying a custode is twice as 'good' would be quite a jump.
is that to suggest a custode can kill twice as fast, take twice as much punishment etc... its not a sensible way of trying to determin things here.

In fluff terms, or from what i understand of GW play on tall tales, id assume that a Primarch is almost indestructable.
you can write stats, and try to quantify these things but in fluff terms, nothing short of another Primarch or an atom bomb is going to put a Primarch down.

Where is, i expect a Primarch would sweep aside a Custode is some flamboyantly scripted fashion.

you want some numbers tho dont you?

ok, my theroy

Emp/Horus > 2 Primarchs
Primarch > 50 SM
Custode > 2 SM

Somthing like that. id expect Custodes to last longer than SM, and for primarchs to rip through 50 SM, in a rage, like they were butter... thats what they are all about, stupidly powerfull super beings. best left to legend...

As for the power of the Emp psychic strength, in the new Legion book theres a wonderfull section where a very powerfull Psy meets the emp, and describes what he felt.
he says that as they shook hands he felt like an ant in the galaxy compared to the Emps psychic mind...

As for Fulgrim - sorry that sounds like fanboi twaddle to me. hes powerfull sure, and stupid enough to fall for a daemons tricks but hes no successor.
The Emp simply doesnt have one, hes supposed to live for ever, hes eternal - nothing but the chaos gods or himself can ever be as powerfull or as important.
the Chaos gods did a bloody good job on removing him tho...

Chaplain Dionitas
22-04-2008, 15:12
****WARNING SPOLIER FOR LEGION AND DESCENT OF ANGELS*****

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I posted a theory regarding Cypher awhile back. After reading Legion, I found it very possible that the cabal could be the driving force behind Cyphers actions. Just look at John Grammaticus and how many times he had died. He possessed a number of different bodie. In all of the fluff regarding Cypher, he always eludes those who are chasing him (Deathwing etc...) Grammaticus did the same. The one time Cypher was captured, he managed to escape. In Legion the Cabal told Alpharius that they needed the Emperor to live. Now that things haven't gone as planned, perhaps they know what will happen if the emperor is slain. I think this is an entirely possible situation.

EDIT: The fact that Cypher is a title and not a name is perfect for the Cabal to use as there is no background for the Lord Cypher once he has taken that duty