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Cal9ar
02-11-2007, 11:24
Well......what is it?

Chilltouch
02-11-2007, 11:26
It's a powerful artefact that detonates and forms what it essentially a miniature blackhole that collapses after a period of time, removing everything that it consumes absolutely - from what I know.

Some say it creates a warp portal, but I think it's more likely that it's a worm-hole at least.

[SD] Bob Plisskin
02-11-2007, 11:47
Arent they from 2nd edition? Somebody might have a wargear card. I got the chaos and Eldar dexes but don't think it's in them...

Tonberry
02-11-2007, 12:44
From wikipedia:
Vortex grenade
The Vortex grenade is a type of specialized grenade used by a few, select characters in the Warhammer 40,000 universe. Backgroundwise, the grenade opens a "hole" to the Warp, destroying any troops in its area of effect. Under the first and second edition of the game, the grenade's effect was persistent; the vortex that it created would randomly move across the battlefield while the game continued. The grenade was completely taken out of the game in the third edition of Warhammer 40,000. However, it was reintroduced in Warhammer 40,000 Apocalypse expansion., where it is an unpredictable weapon that destroys anything that it comes into contact with, and drifts randomly after activation.

MrBigMr
02-11-2007, 13:02
A vortex 'destroys' only when it comes to TT. In fluff it gets sucked into the warp more or less damaged. I don't see how a titan would fit through a small hole intact, but a person sized item could make it.

talos935
02-11-2007, 13:10
A vortex 'destroys' only when it comes to TT. In fluff it gets sucked into the warp more or less damaged. I don't see how a titan would fit through a small hole intact, but a person sized item could make it.


How well does a titan stand when it's missing half it's leg?

Also the other argument is that one part of it is in the worm hole the res of it is sucked/dragged through the portal

biggreengribbly
02-11-2007, 13:13
I don't see how a titan would fit through a small hole intact, but a person sized item could make it.

Did you never see the scene from Alien: Ressurection with the weird pinky alien getting sucked through a Bullet hole? :D

ctsteel
02-11-2007, 17:31
if it is effectively a straight conduit to the warp, makes you wonder why legions of daemons don't pour forth when one is used on a battlefield (all that death and bloodlust must draw their attention, particularly if chaos is involved)

de Selby
02-11-2007, 17:42
I can't remember, so maybe somene with a canon fluff reference in front of them can fill me in. Is it specifically stated that the vortex leads to the warp, or just to 'another' dimension? I'm curious because the apoc book talks about necrons having access to additional extra 'dimensions' other than the warp. The vortex grenade has always been pretty special and I thought it might connect up with this idea...

?

Mr_Rose
02-11-2007, 19:13
Right, the original vortex grenades were miracles of archaeotech, essentially a really tiny warp drive (as in the thing that pulls ships into the warp) with a limited power supply. The warp-portal opened by the grenade would then suck anything within the field bodily into the warp, assuming it was small/light enough to fit. Anything larger than the template merely had a perfectly circular hole cut into it as the section inside the field was transposed, leaving the rest behind, much like the time-bubbles the Terminators used to get to the past in the movies.

Of course, it stands to reason that anything sucked into the warp would survive there as normal for space debris, excepting that unprotected sentient minds would be shredded by daemons pretty much instantly, however, in terms of the tabletop, whatever was hit was pretty much destroyed.

As for the Apocalypse VORTEX GRENADE! and the sundry aliens that now have access to it:
Eldar are all about warp-technology; it's a D-grenade, similar in principle to D-cannon and wraith-cannon.
The Tau have been experimenting with warp technology a lot and they have developed this destructive but unpredictable offshoot almost by accident.
Orks have a similar affinity for warp tech to the Eldar, which is natural given their common origins, and so the right Mek accidentally getting hit on the head at the right time, especially when there's a weirdboy about, could easily build one instead of a Shokk Attack Gun.
Necrons on the other hand, don't do the warp. Not at all ever, so they have phase-pulse generators instead; any object within the field simply phases out of this existence, only to return in the exact same spot a week later. Since the planet they were standing on when they phased out will doubtless have moved on since then, this is seldom conducive to a long and happy life.

RexTalon
02-11-2007, 19:34
I already explained this pretty well in an earlier thread.

Listen,
I think everyone here has to realize that the vortex grenade isn't just a portal. If it were, a chaos army would take one and just open it up on the battlefield for instant reinforcements.

First of all, Original Poster, did the vortex template completely cover your "webway gate". I doubt that it did. To see what would happen, fill a glass with your favorite beverage and put a straw in it. The end of the straw is the vortex "gateway" and the liquid is real space. Now give it a suck... Your mouth, the warp, is full of real space. The real space is not in the same arrangement as it was when it was in the glass. It's been twisted and bent, so that it would fit into the straw, and your mouth. A very few of the particles are still in the same arrangement, but it's a very small amount.

Your webway gate is now in pieces on the other side. It's nowhere NEAR functional.

If there were super heavy vehicles at that point, you might imagine them to be small ice cubes. They may get sucked up if they are small enough, but they generally just sustain damage.

Most importantly, the vortex grenade is meant to be a destructive force, not a portal. Imagine your straw has an irregular shape. I'm not talking about a crazy straw, where it has nice curves. I'm talking about, you have chewed up the straw so that it's all bent and twisted and jagged. It may even have holes in it that lead to nowhere. The vortex tear is a rip in reality. Anything that gets sucked in may not even entirely arrive on the other side. It's meant to destroy, so it doesn't just open up a nice, perfectly round portal, with smooth sides, where waitresses waiting on the other side to serve you fruity drinks with umbrellas in them. It's going to tear you molecule from molecule, and not even bother to put you back together on the other side, supposing all of your molecules even make it that far.

IJW
02-11-2007, 20:26
Bob Plisskin;2056107']Arent they from 2nd edition?
1st ed, but most widely used during 2nd ed.


I don't see how a titan would fit through a small hole intact, but a person sized item could make it.
As others have said, it would just suck them in.


Right, the original vortex grenades were miracles of archaeotech, essentially a really tiny warp drive (as in the thing that pulls ships into the warp) with a limited power supply. The warp-portal opened by the grenade would then suck anything within the field bodily into the warp, assuming it was small/light enough to fit.
Well, originally originally there was no mention of the warp at all.
"A vortex shell creates a small disruption in the space/time fabric, a spinning whirlpool of destruction like a tiny black hole."
Rogue Trader, p96

Vaulkhar
02-11-2007, 21:28
As to a titan fitting in, the answer to that is 'one piece at a time'

chromedog
02-11-2007, 21:30
It is, essentially, to borrow from an old cartoon, "Black hole in a can".

It also used to be known as "opening up a can of whup-ass".
Worst thing about it in RT was it doubling in size EVERY turn and chasing you around the board for the rest of the game - only to fizz out after eating THAT expensive unit.

Iracundus
03-11-2007, 15:02
The Vortex grenade is comparable to Eldar examples of similar weapons: Wraithcannon and D-cannon.

Even though the Eldar weapons do generate a hole into the warp, it explains in the description for Wraithguard that often the targets suffer lethal damage just from the trauma from spatial distortion.

The Vortex grenade as described in previous editions isn't just a neat hole that things can step into and out of. It's a wrenching distortion that rips apart stuff even as it sucks the fragments into the warp. Whatever ends up in the warp doesn't do so in one piece. One could assume it is the same from the other end. The Vortex is less of a simple two way hole and more of a grated drain.

Eisen
03-11-2007, 15:07
Another way of looking at it is that it's a connection between a high-pressure area in realspace and a low-pressure area in warpspace - that its detonation sends a shock wave, for lack of a better word, through the Warp, sucking anything on this side in in the wake of said wave.

Personally, I'm inclined to believe that a vortex grenade is a compressed bundle of waycoolite wrapped in a thin fragmenting layer of handwavium.

MrBigMr
04-11-2007, 12:45
How well does a titan stand when it's missing half it's leg?

Did you never see the scene from Alien: Ressurection with the weird pinky alien getting sucked through a Bullet hole? :D

As others have said, it would just suck them in.
Did any of you notice word 'intact' in there? I never said it couldn't suck it in, I'm just saying that in few threads it was said a large enough vortex should be able to take in things more or less whole, so if you detonate a massive vortex bomb over an army, some of the sturdier equipment should make it through in one piece, so you could have Leman Russes drifting in Warp space.


The Vortex grenade is comparable to Eldar examples of similar weapons: Wraithcannon and D-cannon.

Even though the Eldar weapons do generate a hole into the warp, it explains in the description for Wraithguard that often the targets suffer lethal damage just from the trauma from spatial distortion.
I don't know how those thing differ from the Warp Cannon on the Blackstone Fortress, but that thing opens a rift and streams pure Warp energy at the target. So the vortex opens near the Fortress or in the gun itself and the energy is projected from there.


The Vortex grenade as described in previous editions isn't just a neat hole that things can step into and out of. It's a wrenching distortion that rips apart stuff even as it sucks the fragments into the warp. Whatever ends up in the warp doesn't do so in one piece. One could assume it is the same from the other end. The Vortex is less of a simple two way hole and more of a grated drain.
I think it's like a black hole. If you get a big enough one, it should be possible to travel to the center of it rather safely, as the tides aren't as strong as they are with a small hole. So through a big enough vortex, one should be able to transport a small item intact, as long as it's able to take the initial 'blast' and 'ripple effect' and such.

Savant
04-11-2007, 13:46
It's a moot point really. Yes, something could get sucked into the warp intact by a vortex grenade. But a quick look at what happens when a starship's Gellerfield collapses while in the warp tells us why it wouldn't really make much difference - yes it would be intact for the 0.4 seconds it took to be torn to shreds by daemons.