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hippo2112
02-11-2007, 12:24
This might be a dumb question, but it's been driving me a little bit crazy lately.

A dwarf organ gun fires during the shooting phase. Later on in the shooting phase the Anvil of doom strikes the rune for a free move and wants to choose the organ gun.

I believe the dwarf rule just says that you can't move a gyrocopter with that rune, I don't think there is anything about war machines.

So can a warmachine shoot and then move?

mav1971
02-11-2007, 14:03
You can't move and then shoot with a war machine. But I don't see why you can't do the reverse because of the magical ability of the anvil.

M_M
02-11-2007, 14:18
does the dwarf book state for the anvil "at the start of the phase"?
if not I can't see why but I would guess it will miss its next turn of shooting due to moving

Atrahasis
02-11-2007, 14:22
I would guess it will miss its next turn of shooting due to movingThen you would guess wrong - "movement" doesn't pass from one turn to another - units with Move or Shoot weapons can even Stand and Shoot in the other player's turn after moving in their own.

Avian
02-11-2007, 14:24
does the dwarf book state for the anvil "at the start of the phase"?
No, so you can for example shoot at a unit with cannons and bolt throwers, and then use the Anvil to charge them as well. :(

Doc Havoc
03-11-2007, 04:09
Per the Anvil rules p. 31:


Units that move in this way may not shoot in the Shooting phase. Units which rallied earlier in the turn may not make this move.

Sorry, you can't shoot and move with the anvil in the same shooting phase.

DeathlessDraich
03-11-2007, 11:53
Per the Anvil rules p. 31:
Sorry, you can't shoot and move with the anvil in the same shooting phase.

True, but the others sequenced it the other way round.

The Anvil is used in the shooting phase which is not necessarily the *start* of the shooting phase.

If Oath and Honour is used on a unit *after* it has shot, then it will enable that unit to move.

Move or shoot: "may not fire his weapon if he has moved at all *during that turn*
or Warmachines "may not be fired in a turn when ...have moved" - as Atahasis stated.

ZomboCom
04-11-2007, 20:27
Units moved by it may not shoot in the shooting phase. The order it is done doesn't matter.

If it has already shot and is then anvilled it will be breaking the above rule, so cannot be done.

I repeat, the order does not matter.

Atrahasis
04-11-2007, 22:33
Such an interpretation requires a prescience that the rules do not support.

The cause is "being moved" and the effect is "cannot shoot". Effect cannot precede cause.

Muzzle
05-11-2007, 00:43
Pg 31 Dwarf Rulebook:

"Units that move in this way may not shoot in the Shooting phase."

How is this even open for argument? If you shoot, you cannot be moved with the anvil, if you are moved with the anvil, you cannot shoot. There is no conflict of effect proceeding cause, sheesh people, stop making things so hard.

;)

Atrahasis
05-11-2007, 00:51
Compare that with:

"Units that that move in this way may not shoot in the Shooting phase, and vice versa"

Note that the actual rule does not establish that units that shoot cannot be moved by the anvil, only that units moved by the anvil cannot [subsequently] shoot.

There is a definite order to cause and effect implicit in the rule.

Baindread
05-11-2007, 00:59
The "intent" of this rule is probably that you shouldn't be able to cast the rune on a unit of thunderers, turn them around and then shoot. Or move an Organ gun into LOS and then shoot. But since the anvil rules are so crappily written, GW just have themselves to blame. If they would have thought about it more than 30 seconds they would have written in the anvil rules that runes are always used at the beginning of the shooting phase. By the letter of the rule there is nothing stopping you from moving a unit that has already fired that turn.

Muzzle
05-11-2007, 01:01
I would probably agree with you if the shooting phase was broken up in discreet units, however, it is not. Cannot shoot in the shooting PHASE. The WHOLE phase, if it shot, or will shoot, it don't move.

Edit to reply to Bain as well:

You all are confusing me greatly lol. It implicitly says the target of that rune cannot shoot in the shooting phase. Let's say that again: The SHOOTING PHASE hehe. Someone please show me where anything that happens before an action in the same phase, is not part of that phase??

DeathlessDraich
05-11-2007, 08:16
Muzzle, you have not considered what actually happens in a game.
Consider 2 Dwarven units - The Anvil and a unit of quarrellers.

1) The Dwarf player decides to shoot with the quarrellers first. Can he do so? Unquestionably, yes.
2) After he has shot with the quarrellers, can he use Oath and Honour without restriction? Unquestionably, yes. Can he 'target' the quarrellers (who have shot)? Again yes.

If the Anvil was meant to be used in the way you stated the rules would have been phrased as:
1) "The Anvil must be used at the start of the Shooting phase"
Or
2) "The Anvil cannot be used on a unit that has already shot"

There are other precedents in the game that indicate this can be done:
Comparing this with Tomb Kings, the Incantation of Urgency can be cast after the Incantation of Smiting (shooting) on the SSC.


Baindread: All speculation of 'intent' is futile as we are not mind readers. However I do agree that the Anvil rules are lacking in clarity.

Rytter
05-11-2007, 09:48
Lets say you shoot whit your unit and afterwards move it with the anvil. Did you then abide to this sentence/rule:

"Unit that moves in this way may not shoot in the shooting phase."

1) You have moved your unit.
2) You have shot with your unit

Conclusion: You have moved the unit AND shot with it in the same phase, thus breaking the above rule, which clearly states you are not allowed to do so.
In order to abide the rule, you must therefore either shoot or move it - never both. The sequence has no impact upon this.

Muzzle
05-11-2007, 20:14
Exactly my point Rytter.

Deathless Draich, I have a question. In your example there, where the quarrellers fire, and then are targeted by the Anvil. Do both happen in the same shooting phase? The anvil rules clearly state the unit targeted cannot shoot in the shooting PHASE. The whole phase. If you agree that they both happen in the same shooting phase, there is no argument. Whichever comes first, the quarrellers firing, or the rune going off, is irrelevant. They both happen in the same phase. Now, perhaps the argument is that they happen in different
distinct portions of the phase, and I would like to read where it says that. The words "Shooting Phase" seem clear to me to indicate the whole phase, but perhaps I am mistaken somewhere?

W0lf
05-11-2007, 20:42
No.

I shoot my weapon.

I chose to move it

"Unit that moves in this way may not shoot in the shooting phase."

So i move and cant shoot, but it dosnt matter ive already shot.

its not...
1. shoot,
2. anvil,
3. move,
4. erase step 1 because i couldnt do step 3 then step 1 (which i didnt)

Swap 1 and 3 and your breaking the rule. the current way around you have broken no rule.

Its a loop hole but its 100% backed by RAW.

Muzzle
05-11-2007, 22:02
And still, my point and question are avoided. Is the firing of the quarrellers or whatever
and the anvil movement happening in the same PHASE or not? How many definitions for
Shooting Phase are there? You agree that it says "Unit that moves in this way may
not shoot in the shooting phase." Wolf, Bain, Atra, someone, PLEASE define phase for
me then? As you all are stating it, anything that happens in the phase BEFORE the anvil
is used, is NOT part of the same shooting phase... how can this be?

Atrahasis
05-11-2007, 23:17
Yes, it is the same phase.

No, it doesn't make any difference that it is the same phase.

OK, wizards that are not on the table cannot attempt to cast spells in the magic phase.

So, by your logic, a wizard who casts a spell and leaves the table (perhaps by inducing a magical charge and charging off the table edge) cannot cast any spells and so disappears in a green puff of existential angst.

ORDER IS IMPORTANT. The anvil does not specify that units that have shot cannot be moved, only that those that have moved cannot shoot.

Muzzle
05-11-2007, 23:25
You're right, a mage that casts a spell that takes he/she off
the table cannot cast anymore spells... lol

I fail to see the relevance, but I am happy to humor you.

So, by YOUR logic, having fired quarrellers BEFORE you use the
anvil, is a different phase. That is all I need to know.

I will continue to play by the rules however, which seem to be
pretty clear in stating that anything that happens in the shooting
phase, happened in the shooting phase...

rofl


No, it doesn't make any difference that it is the same phase.

This is going to come in very handy though, so perhaps I will play
your way, just think of all the hth rules you could flaunt with this.

You say order is important, but it being in the same phase is not...
That is some convoluted thinking my friend. So, if the rule said:

"Unit that moves in this way may not have shot in the shooting phase."

That would clear it all up? Even though it is still talking about the
same phase? Although now the argument will be that they can
shoot AFTER the movement. **sigh**

I still don't understand how if order is important, the fact that the
quarrellers have already shot is not important? The words shooting
phase are clear, period. Anything that involves shooting, before
or after the anvil is the SHOOTING PHASE. I am done arguing with
you all though.

Good games and good opponents to you all.

Atrahasis
05-11-2007, 23:35
You're right, a mage that casts a spell that takes he/she off
the table cannot cast anymore spells... lol

I fail to see the relevance, but I am happy to humor you.

The relevance is that a mage that is not on the table cannot cast any spells in the magic PHASE.

They've cast a spell but they aren't on the table. That, according to you, is against the rules.


So, by YOUR logic, having fired quarrellers BEFORE you use the
anvil, is a different phase. That is all I need to know.No, it is not a different phase, I have even expressly said it is the same phase.

(Insert ellipsis and abbreviations to taste)

Muzzle
05-11-2007, 23:42
So a mage that casts a spell that takes him off the table, can
still cast more spells in the same magic phase, good to know. I will
definitely be using this!

Atrahasis
05-11-2007, 23:56
So a mage that casts a spell that takes him off the table, can
still cast more spells in the same magic phase, good to know. I will
definitely be using this!

That's not what I said. Either you're an idiot or you're being deliberately obtuse.

Muzzle
06-11-2007, 00:04
That's not what I said. Either you're an idiot or you're being deliberately obtuse.

Exactly what you did to me. I am glad you appreciated it as much as I did.

schapi
06-11-2007, 12:40
Bickering aside...;) I completely agree with Muzzle.

The quote is clear and it seems like we have a bunch of dwarf players who want to have their cake and eat it too!

Just becuase you break down the shooting phase into "before the anvil" and "after the anvil" does not mean anything. The rules of the anvil do NOT specificy the order. All it says is this on pg 31. "Units that move in this way may not shoot in the shooting phase".

I challenge any dwarf player to give me one example of a unit that can fire outside of the shooting phase, becuase that is what you would have to do boys and girls!

I usually do not feel compelled to respond to rules questions, but this one is so clear I had to say something.

Atrahasis
06-11-2007, 12:42
Any missile unit (not war machine) can fire outside the shooting phase.

"may not shoot" is in no way a phrase that can be applied to the past tense. The rule does not in any way limit the past actions of a unit.

schapi
06-11-2007, 13:25
Atrahasis, you have me VERY confused!

Please explain to me HOW a missile unit in a dwarf army can fire outside of the shooting phase?

Atrahasis
06-11-2007, 14:12
Stand and Shoot.

schapi
06-11-2007, 14:49
Yea but that is in your opponents turn.
How on earth would you use the Anvil in conjuction with it?

Remember, the point of the thread is that some people are saying that they can both move AND shoot in the shooting phase because of the anvil.

Atrahasis
06-11-2007, 15:08
I know what the point of the thread is.

You simply asked how a unit could shoot outside the shooting phase.

The fact remains that while the rule disallows a unit that has been moved by the anvil from shooting, the reverse is not true.

Kroxigore
06-11-2007, 15:25
Compare that with:

"Units that that move in this way may not shoot in the Shooting phase, and vice versa"

Note that the actual rule does not establish that units that shoot cannot be moved by the anvil, only that units moved by the anvil cannot [subsequently] shoot.

There is a definite order to cause and effect implicit in the rule.

Sorry, if this has already been said, but there is a mistake in that argument. The expression vice versa makes it quite clear, that units that shoot in the shooting phase may not move, so the consequence of that is that there is no moving and shooting, no matter, what order!

Atrahasis
06-11-2007, 15:44
The expression vice versa makes it quite clear,I added "and vice versa" to show that the actual rule (that lacks that clause) does not prevent shooting-then-moving.

Please read what is written before responding.

DeathlessDraich
06-11-2007, 16:01
"Unit that moves in this way may not shoot in the shooting phase."

Conclusion: You have moved the unit AND shot with it in the same phase, thus breaking the above rule, which clearly states you are not allowed to do so.
In order to abide the rule, you must therefore either shoot or move it - never both. The sequence has no impact upon this.

Yes, I understand your point.

It is a rule which is inadequate and necessitates some form of interpretation.
More below**


Deathless Draich, I have a question. In your example ..., the quarrellers firing, or the rune going off, ...both happen in the same phase.

Yes, they do and I am sure everyone here is aware of that.
I understand your point of view perfectly as I understand the opposite point of view.
Whichever view is chosen has to be consistent and viable.
**See below



The quote is clear and it seems like we have a bunch of dwarf players who want to have their cake and eat it too!


Hello and welcome schapi.

1) No, we are not all Dwarf players at this forum :D. I personally play with nearly all 15 armies at one time or another.

2) The rule being discussed is not clear enough, otherwise this discussion would not exist.

**
1) Your interpretation/s, is that a unit that shoots cannot be subjected to Oath and Honour in the same shooting phase.
For your interpretation to be precise, the written rule has to be modified to:
"Unit that moves in this way may not shoot (or have shot) in the shooting phase."

2) My interpretation is that a unit that shoots can still then be subjected to Oath and Honour.
For my interpretation to be precise, the written rule has to be modified to:
"Unit that moves in this way may not (then) shoot in the shooting phase."

3) A third interpretation would be, Units subjected to Oath and Honour cannot shoot in *all* Shooting phases:
This is justified interpretation because "*the* Shooting phase" could be correctly interpreted as *not* being *this* shooting phase but a generalised reference to *the* Shooting phase.
Fortunately, no one is advocating this view.

The choice of interpretation, (1),(2) or (3) must be workable, viable and consistent with all rules.

(3) can be discarded because there are rules elsewhere in which 'the' really means 'this'
(1) should be discarded because it requires prescience as Atrahasis stated. If it is adopted for the reasons given, then the interpretation of other similar rules must also follow that same line of reasoning to be workable and consistent.

E.g. Consider Doom and Darkness
Its rules state that "For the *duration of that turn* the affected unit will suffer -3 to any Ld based test"

Apply the same reasoning you have chosen for Oath and Honour to this,[below] and I am sure you'll agree the rules for D&D will be unworkable.

[A unit that wishes to charge a Fear causer suffers -3 to its Ld during the Movement phase?? but the spell has yet to be cast?? and may not be?]

schapi
06-11-2007, 16:37
Well.. There is only going to be two ways that this goes down.

1) You shoot with a dwarf unit. Then you move them with the anvil.

2) You move them with the anvil. Then you shoot them.

In BOTH situations, the unit counts as shooting in the Shooting Phase, right?
Therefore it is not allowed.

If anyone here can give me a single scenario where a dwarf player can fire a unit in their turn and not break the rule: "A unit that moves in this way not fire in the shootng phase".

Both situations have the unit firing in the shooting phase.

No I suppose you could interpret the rule differently, if you added words to it. But I am not going to. You are saying the rules should be worded like this "A unit that moves in this way not fire in the shooting phase, unless it has already fired". Hate to break it to ya.. but that is not what it says.

Atrahasis
06-11-2007, 16:44
No, that is not what it says. Neither does it say "Units that have shot in the shooting phase may not move in this way."

"May not shoot" without any further qualification can refer only to future actions.

If I paint my house red I may not attend Housing Association Dinners this year.

If I have already been to a Housing Association dinner this year, does some cosmic force prevent me from painting my house red?

AFoolProofPlan
09-11-2007, 07:36
I'm gonna have to go with Atrahasis on this one.
"Unit that moves in this way may not shoot in the shooting phase."
That just says you can't shoot once you have moved. Nothing about moving after shooting.

"In BOTH situations, the unit counts as shooting in the Shooting Phase, right?
Therefore it is not allowed."
I think that's a moot point. There are lots of special rules that overrides other rules.
Relentless comes to mind for some reasons....
So I don't see how Anvil overriding this rule should be different from anything else.

Artemis
09-11-2007, 07:53
If it says "may not shoot" it clearly refers to a restriction coming into effect from the moment the unit has been moved by the anvil. Until this happens, that restriction is not in effect on the unit. Imagine a note saying "May not shoot". Place it on the unit when using the anvil. Not before. Then remove the note when the shooting phase ends.There is no note saying "May not be moved by the anvil" that comes into effect if a dwarf unit shoots. The purpose of the rule is that a dwarf player cannot move a unit and then fire with it, thus gaining a better firing position. He may, however, move a unit with the anvil after it has shot.