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Jinjulas
02-11-2007, 12:36
I wondered, is there any info of the inventor of the lightning claws?
I use them myself for my termies, but I have a hard time to see the tactical use.

Yes, they are powerfull.
Yes, they make the user able to kill alot of enemies.
Yes, they can rip through most armour.

BUT, aren't it silly really? A power sword will do the exact same thing. And you'll more range and a less weapon that has a less chance of being destroyed in battle. Of course the claws are hard, but if you cut through some of the wires you have and (almost) useless weapon..

Anyways, enough trashing claws. Is there any fluff which tells us who first made use of the lightning claws?

Thank you in advance. Both for answering and for not making me feel like an idiot for my first background thread :D

Jinjulas

AbyssRaven
02-11-2007, 12:39
Diffrences is. Sword blade,a xe blade ect is one single cut

When you have 4 small overlaid power fields cutting through you its alot more damage
you can survivve a cut to the ribs, can you survive 4 blades churning your insides?

Megad00mer
02-11-2007, 12:48
I think Lightning Claws are another one of those pesky pieces of technology who's origins were lost during the Dark Age of Technology.

Tonberry
02-11-2007, 12:48
Dunno about who made the first, but I'm willing to guess that Horus was one of the first to use.

Vaulkhar
02-11-2007, 13:02
To quote the old Gilette ad, 'You take one stroke, it takes four...'

Early adopters seem to have been the Raven Guard (Shrike's claws are known to date from the Heresy period) and the various Raptor units.

Chilltouch
02-11-2007, 13:17
It's a set of power weapons that cannot be removed. That's what's so great about it. You can't disarm someone with lightning claws.

Also, they'd be mighty useful for opening up a tank. While you'd have to sink a powersword in and cut a hole open, you'd simply have to shove in the claws and rip aside and you can charge in all you like.

You can also catch weapons between the claws and disarm your foes.
The reroll failed wounds thing exists because of the four slashes instead of one.
And from what I know, Space Marine lightning claws are huge. Probably as long as swords.

And finally...
RULE OF COOL

Chainsworded Codpiece
02-11-2007, 15:34
Diffrences is. Sword blade,a xe blade ect is one single cut

When you have 4 small overlaid power fields cutting through you its alot more damage
you can survivve a cut to the ribs, can you survive 4 blades churning your insides?

Well, really, most fellas CAN'T survive a "cut" to the ribs from a powered blade. It's not like being stabbed with a switchblade or a kitchen knife. In fact, I'd add that even when an Astartes DOES survive a midsection cut form a PS, it's because it really was a glancing cut.

I use the Astartes as an example, but I suppose a tough Ork is a good reference as well...but Joe Average Hominid is likely put into Intensive Care by any powered weapon (at all) that connects the strike along it's edge (at all).

Redundant blades "churning your insides" are moot when up against regular troops.

My guess is, though, the Lightning Claws/Talons might have come into use in defensive actions against Genestealers and 'Gaunts in close quarters/Space Hulks. IIRC, there were possible instances of Crusade-era troops encountering what we now know were outrider sub-'Nid broods.

Granted, Humans didn't know what they were (or how bad things would get)...but the few instances they probably had to clear out Hulks of 'Stealer or 'Nid subtypes convinced them that some kind of fully manipulative, powered-claw unit was needed.

It needed the strike-to-kill ratio near that of a PFist, but also the ability to shear and cut, and needed to be faster on the strike than pFists were. And, as other posters mentioned, it needed to be non-"disarmable".

EDIT: Yeah, what Chilltouch said. Concerning the disarming-of-others/weapon-catching capabilities, I mean. That's one I didn't consider.

badnewsblair
02-11-2007, 15:53
Claws are attached to your fist, unlike a sword. The Lightning Claws are definitely used for in your face, up close and personal horde fighting. Think about it...

You are a Space Marine in Terminator armor. You wade your way into a huge horde of Genestealers or Orks where essentially bodies are just being piled up on each other from all sides.

Do you want a sword where you have to make the physical swing?

Or do you want claws where you can just literally, blindly scrath and well... CLAW your way through the thick of the battle?

The Claws afford you a sort of carelessness and disregard for tactics. If you're in "the stuff", the effort needed to wield a sword properly will ultimately weigh you down.

... and then there's the cool factor.

Rirekon
02-11-2007, 16:01
Claws can be used in a punching action, which is a much more natural movement than trying to stab with a sword, it's also more powerful. They also leave you hands free to manipulate other equipment without sheathing your weapon(s).

However as others have already... it's cool ;)

Imperialis_Dominatus
02-11-2007, 16:11
Not only is it cool, it's bad ass. It's Wolverine meets Space Marines (any flavor).

Ditto to other things said above too.

TrooperTino
02-11-2007, 16:23
I allways thought the power generator in Power Fists/Lightning Claw is bigger/better compared to the power output of a simple Powersword. Theres more space for a bigger generator in the armoured gauntlet, which is nearly as big as a mans chest...

Chaplain Dionitas
02-11-2007, 17:45
Dunno about who made the first, but I'm willing to guess that Horus was one of the first to use.

They were around back then as the The Big E had one as well. Rather nasty looking at that

Brother Enok
02-11-2007, 19:06
Also, if you make a single cut it can be stitched and healed. If you make four parallel cuts the skin between the outer wounds can't be sticthed together and dies, creating a massive gaping invitation for infection and blood loss.
This, and the many things mentioned above add a great physical and psycological advantage to the astartes, whom base most thier warefare on blazae "IN YOUR FACE" tactics.

My therory anyway :p

IJW
02-11-2007, 19:49
And finally...
RULE OF COOL
That, and being able to have Terminators in Space Hulk that didn't keel over when a 'Stealer so much as breathed on them... ;)

Interestingly, the first model to get what is now a Lightning Claw was the old Harlequin High Warlock:

http://www.azurevision.co.uk/warseer/harlequin-shadowseer.jpg

jfrazell
02-11-2007, 20:13
Not only is it cool, it's bad ass. It's Wolverine meets Space Marines (any flavor).

Ditto to other things said above too.

Ditto your ditto. The Rule of Cool makes them uber.

Visionary
02-11-2007, 20:24
Lightning claws, imagine cutting yourself with a craft knife:

"Ah! Blood!"

Now imagine that times 4:

"Ah! More blood!"

Now add a gazillion trillion volts (as stated in a random book im sure):

"My blood! It's evapourated! Oh no it's condensing ah!!! raining blood!"

Now you see why lightning claws are so good ;)

Imperialis_Dominatus
02-11-2007, 20:34
Lightning claws, imagine cutting yourself with a craft knife:

"Ah! Blood!"

Now imagine that times 4:

"Ah! More blood!"

Now add a gazillion trillion volts (as stated in a random book im sure):

"My blood! It's evapourated! Oh no it's condensing ah!!! raining blood!"

Now you see why lightning claws are so good ;)

Best explanation ever. Reminds me of a Blood Mage from Warcraft (you know, that game from Bl*zz*rd ;)).

"My blood cries out for the vengeance of my people's blood, which can only be repaid with twice as much blood, or maybe three times as much blood! Like if you went to hell, and it was full of blood, and that blood was on fire, and it was raining blood, and maybe that would be enough blood!... er, but probably not..."

Lord_Crull
02-11-2007, 20:44
Lightning claws are just plain cool.

graveaccomplice
02-11-2007, 21:17
I dunno. Previous experiments with multiple blades have proven... less than successful. The redundant blades snagged more often than did damage. That, and precision tends to kill more reliably than mass damage. Massive damage DOES have the effect of prolonging suffering though...

Rirekon
02-11-2007, 21:30
Sorry what? Massive damage is much more likely to cause death than a precision hit, that's why armour piercing bullets aren't used against unarmoured targets, they leave too neat a hole. It's the physical trauma of having significant amounts of flesh removed that does the killing, there are very few places in the human body where a single incision will cause instant death.

graveaccomplice
02-11-2007, 21:53
Sorry what? Massive damage is much more likely to cause death than a precision hit, that's why armour piercing bullets aren't used against unarmoured targets, they leave too neat a hole. It's the physical trauma of having significant amounts of flesh removed that does the killing, there are very few places in the human body where a single incision will cause instant death.

-Throat
-Armpits
-Inner Thigh (femorial Arteries)

While not instant, death is within seconds.

Organs are held in the abdominal cavity by less than an inch of muscle. Disenbowelment kills faster (marginally) than crushed organs.

Ask yourself what methods butchers used to quickly kill the animals. Most use a bullet to the head or a knife to the throat. Even chickens are killed by snapping the neck instead of smashing it into the ground repeatedly.

He who is doom
02-11-2007, 21:54
when you rip a chunk out of someone with four power blades it usually kills them for they just had a chunk of them ripped out. it does not matter if its precises or not, it kills nothing more. it kills by ripping out a chunk out of sombody. get what i am at.


p.s. the original use was for cutting bread in sliced patterns. this is a joke

graveaccomplice
02-11-2007, 22:08
Never mind

graveaccomplice
02-11-2007, 22:13
when you rip a chunk out of someone with four power blades it usually kills them for they just had a chunk of them ripped out. it does not matter if its precises or not, it kills nothing more. it kills by ripping out a chunk out of sombody. get what i am at.


p.s. the original use was for cutting bread in sliced patterns. this is a joke



It's a power weapon slicing cleanly. It's not ripping out a chunk of anything. If your flailing and hoping to hit something vital, your not anymore likely to do so with 3 more blades. A skilled fighter will be just as able to hit something vital with one.

To be honest, the lightning claws were probably invented to kill marines. The multiple blades are more likely to take out more of their redundancy systems. A strike to the chest has better odds of taking out both hearts at once. Same with the lungs. I also see it overloading or forcing a marines body to unduely expend energy for their healing/scarring abilities. Against most critters the extra blades aren't that neccesary.

Only GW knows for sure.

Tehkonrad
02-11-2007, 23:57
rule of cool and of course the fact that without you wouldn't have nearly as awesome looking minis

Chilltouch
03-11-2007, 00:26
Yeah, but what's more likely to put you out of battle? A bullet to the arm or four bullets to the arm?

What's more likely to kill you? A bullet to the heart or four bullets to the heart?

Imperialis_Dominatus
03-11-2007, 00:34
What's more dangerous? A Space Marine with trained to fight effectively with a power sword or a Space Marine trained to fight with Lightning Claws effectively? I.E. with finesse. Not a rhetorical question, I know little about actual hand to hand when it comes to weaponry.

Burnthem
03-11-2007, 00:44
Lightning Claws are just one of those things where the Rule of Cool reigns supreme, so dont get too caught up trying to justify thier appearance or function :)

saying that though, i certainly wouldnt want to be on the recieving end of them!

jhon
03-11-2007, 03:05
one big blade vs few smell blade ...
longer reach vs faster action ...


sword vs claws ....

Devil-Tears
03-11-2007, 03:06
To quote the old Gilette ad, 'You take one stroke, it takes four...'

Sigged! :p

Also, on the fluff of lightning claws, using a lightning claw would technically be a lot faster. Sure, one swing takes about the same time as a sword, but when your in close, moving just your forearms takes a lot less time than raising and swinging your sword.

Biomass Denial
03-11-2007, 10:06
Also you cant stand two people shoulder to shoulder and give them broadswords and tell them to swing them whereas claws can be used shoulder to shoulder just stabbing.

Quentin
03-11-2007, 11:01
... whereas claws can be used shoulder to shoulder just stabbing.

LOL I just imagined a couple of Blood Angel's Lightning Claw Termies plodding along on a battlefield poking hapless Guardsmen to death in a bored fashion.

graveaccomplice
03-11-2007, 11:42
What's more dangerous? A Space Marine with trained to fight effectively with a power sword or a Space Marine trained to fight with Lightning Claws effectively? I.E. with finesse. Not a rhetorical question, I know little about actual hand to hand when it comes to weaponry.

Can't really say. We've avoided multi-bladed weapons for a number of reasons. More blades to snag in bone or armor, more metal needed to make the weapon, the minor addition to damage didn't outweight the disadvantages of added bulk and akward balance, having extra bits didn't aid much in armor piercing, etc.

The small blades will have less reach. You'll have to be more aggressive to use them against anything with range on you. The sword would have the greater reach and power. F=ma, and working part of the blade (the outer third) covers more distance in roughly the same time. The larger blade will also have better leverage and armor penetration. You can get your whole body into two-handed techniques as opposed to one hand behind the claws. It isn't too different from daggers vs swords.

Most of this is moot, as both are power weapons. All the swords advantages get negated by the claws energy fields. The sword user could still get reach and a bit more 'umph', but the game system abstracts those advantages away.


I still stick with my theory that it's originally a marine killer (or just thrown in to look cool). The added damage wouldn't be nessecary for any other race.



Yeah, but what's more likely to put you out of battle? A bullet to the arm or four bullets to the arm?

What's more likely to kill you? A bullet to the heart or four bullets to the heart?


If you've put a bullet in an arm or heart, why are you wasting 3 more? Remember the proverb about shooting dead horses?



Also you cant stand two people shoulder to shoulder and give them broadswords and tell them to swing them whereas claws can be used shoulder to shoulder just stabbing.

Broadswords could also be used for stabbing instead of slashing. It's how they most often penetrated armor. Broadsword users generally WERE shoulder to shoulder in various press combats, although spears and lighter blades tended to do better.

Burnthem
03-11-2007, 11:57
Most of this is moot, as both are power weapons. All the swords advantages get negated by the claws energy fields. The sword user could still get reach and a bit more 'umph', but the game system abstracts those advantages away.


Exactly, you could hit someone with a wet paper bag and it wouldnt do a thing, stick a power field on it and you can knock down walls :D Ok, slight exaggeration, but you get the point, as graveaccomplice said, the problems of snagging and getting caught up in armor/clothes/internal organs doesnt matter when its a power weapon.

Rirekon
03-11-2007, 13:35
Broadswords could also be used for stabbing instead of slashing. It's how they most often penetrated armor. Broadsword users generally WERE shoulder to shoulder in various press combat, althoughs spears and lighter blades tended to do better.

Assuming that broadsword is being used to refer to greatswords, then they most definitely were not stabbing weapons. They were used as a bludgeoning weapon that killed through blunt force trauma.

Eisen
03-11-2007, 13:45
Assuming that broadsword is being used to refer to greatswords, then they most definitely were not stabbing weapons. They were used as a bludgeoning weapon that killed through blunt force trauma.

Usually "broadsword" refers to an edged blade, sometimes sharpened at the tip, between two and a half and three and a half feet of blade length long... in short, most definitely not a greatsword. Areas where confusion occur include the Scots claymore - which has been described as both a two-handed weapon and a basket-hilted broadsword - and argument over the difference between "broadsword" and "longsword."

Brother Enok
03-11-2007, 13:50
Damn, Eisen beat me too it. I think alot of the confusion comes fro RPGs were the creators don't know how to classify weapons. Longsword, Warsword, Bastard sword, soldiers sword and greatsword can be interchangable, but could also be used to refer to diffrent weapons. For example my 36" "short sword" is also the length of Arming swords of other eras and nations. A sword of 36" with a double blade could aslo be called a warsword, another name for the longer 48" to 50" double bladed, tappered end sword known as the Bastard sword. It gets very confusing.

FlashGordon
03-11-2007, 19:23
One word: Intimidation.

Maidel
03-11-2007, 20:30
My take on Lightning claws is similar to the inital use of terminators - close quater fighting - eg space hulks, assulting bunkers etc.

long Swords (not long-swords - i mean any swords of a great length) are not suited to enclosed combat - you cant swing a sword in a passage way (as any first edition DnD player will know!) However - power claws/ lightling claws will work much more effectively.

They can be used to punch and a swing with them takes up much less space than a power sword.

all the talk about snagging and why we havent developed real world versions is irrelavent. Space marines are far to strong to 'snag' a any weapon on bone or armour - sure they can snag a weapon on soild walls - and hence the reason why lightning claws are much better than a sword.

There is also much to be said to instinct. One sword takes a long time to master, fighting with two swords takes even longer. The punching instinct is very strong and thus lighting claws are easier to master. Not that this is particularly relavent to a space marine (decades of training and all that) but when something gets up REALLY close (And this happens all the time in the BL fiction) they end up punching it with the hilt of the power sword... Now if they were wearing lighting claws - one dead oponent.

graveaccomplice
03-11-2007, 21:22
My take on Lightning claws is similar to the inital use of terminators - close quater fighting - eg space hulks, assulting bunkers etc.

long Swords (not long-swords - i mean any swords of a great length) are not suited to enclosed combat - you cant swing a sword in a passage way (as any first edition DnD player will know!) However - power claws/ lightling claws will work much more effectively.

Agreed.


all the talk about snagging and why we havent developed real world versions is irrelavent. Space marines are far to strong to 'snag' a any weapon on bone or armour - sure they can snag a weapon on soild walls - and hence the reason why lightning claws are much better than a sword.

Bullets are snagged and bounced around by bone. Their impact is stanger and more concentrated than that of a marine.


There is also much to be said to instinct. One sword takes a long time to master, fighting with two swords takes even longer. The punching instinct is very strong and thus lighting claws are easier to master.

How long do Shodokan karateka, maui thai boxers, and standards boxers spend training? How many boxers still end up breaking their wrists in real fights?


Not that this is particularly relavent to a space marine (decades of training and all that) but when something gets up REALLY close (And this happens all the time in the BL fiction) they end up punching it with the hilt of the power sword... Now if they were wearing lighting claws - one dead oponent.


Again, agreed.

Eisen
03-11-2007, 21:25
How long do Shodokan karateka, maui thai boxers, and standards boxers spend training? How many boxers still end up breaking their wrists in real fights?


Quite a few more than wear reinforced power armor, or for that matter, any kind of bracing system on the joint in question, I suspect.

Brother Siccarius
03-11-2007, 21:59
It's a power weapon slicing cleanly. It's not ripping out a chunk of anything. If your flailing and hoping to hit something vital, your not anymore likely to do so with 3 more blades. A skilled fighter will be just as able to hit something vital with one.

To be honest, the lightning claws were probably invented to kill marines. The multiple blades are more likely to take out more of their redundancy systems. A strike to the chest has better odds of taking out both hearts at once. Same with the lungs. I also see it overloading or forcing a marines body to unduely expend energy for their healing/scarring abilities. Against most critters the extra blades aren't that neccesary.

Only GW knows for sure.

The thing is that you have to stop looking at it as just a power weapon.

The normal power axe or sword is rather unweildy and requires a good amount of getting used to, and even then it can be hard to fight against a lot of enemies or close quarters because you need room for the swing and return swings of the weapon.

With the Lightning Claws they extend from the back of your gauntlet, effectively making it as easy to fight with as fighting with your fist. Even if you miss with the punch, the enemy might still not jump out of reach of the claws. It's a much more instinctual weapon than a sword or axe as you aren't born with either of those, but your natural defence and offence is with your fists and body. It's easier to fight multiple close enemies, hordes, or in close quarters as it only needs as much space to be effective as your body takes up naturally. Multiple blade simply make it that much more likely to hit a vital part or multiple vital areas with a single swing making a kill that much easier. Combine that with the fact that each direct hit of the blades is combined with a punch that can shatter a normal man's bones even without the extra armored gauntlet, and it's a pretty effective weapon.

A closer example of this kind of weaponry is the push dagger or Katar.

Also note that unlike a power sword, axe, halberd, ect. it's exceedingly hard or impossible to disarm without knocking out the opponent or cutting off the hand.

brother alinski
03-11-2007, 22:02
BUT, aren't it silly really? A power sword will do the exact same thing. And you'll more range and a less weapon that has a less chance of being destroyed in battle. Of course the claws are hard, but if you cut through some of the wires you have and (almost) useless weapon..


fast attacks, theres a reason birds have talons and cats have claws (similer ideals) if your moving fast and want to take something down 4 blades are better than 1. thats why the raven guard use them a lot use them a lot.

graveaccomplice
03-11-2007, 23:44
fast attacks, theres a reason birds have talons and cats have claws (similer ideals) if your moving fast and want to take something down 4 blades are better than 1. thats why the raven guard use them a lot use them a lot.

The claws and talons are used for gripping and grappelling in your examples. Kills are made with beak and teeth, unless the cat starts racking with rear claws in the grappel. There's even footage of a lioness choking out a prey animal by clamping its mouth over the critters muzzle.

Stranger
03-11-2007, 23:47
If you've put a bullet in an arm or heart, why are you wasting 3 more? Remember the proverb about shooting dead horses?

In the grim darkness of the 40th millenium there's no overkill. There's just "Open fire" and "I need to reload".

The fact that lightning claws are often given to marines in terminator suits might have something to do with their existence as well. First and foremost, being designed for tight spaces, they'd be limited to sstabs, and really narrow swings, and as much training as they might have, swinging a couple-feet metal rod under theese circumstances is not the easiest thing to do. Plus, with the bulk of them, I'd imagine they'd be pretty limiting as far as arm movement goes. A simple scratching motion seems better-suited for them... And they seem to have reinforced elbow servos, which further strenghten the swings, while those of a sword would be hindered by the wrist support of the armor...

graveaccomplice
03-11-2007, 23:49
The normal power axe or sword is rather unweildy and requires a good amount of getting used to, and even then it can be hard to fight against a lot of enemies or close quarters because you need room for the swing and return swings of the weapon.

It can't be any more unwieldy to marines than a typical sword or axe to a human.


With the Lightning Claws they extend from the back of your gauntlet, effectively making it as easy to fight with as fighting with your fist. Even if you miss with the punch, the enemy might still not jump out of reach of the claws. It's a much more instinctual weapon than a sword or axe as you aren't born with either of those, but your natural defence and offence is with your fists and body. It's easier to fight multiple close enemies, hordes, or in close quarters as it only needs as much space to be effective as your body takes up naturally. Multiple blade simply make it that much more likely to hit a vital part or multiple vital areas with a single swing making a kill that much easier. Combine that with the fact that each direct hit of the blades is combined with a punch that can shatter a normal man's bones even without the extra armored gauntlet, and it's a pretty effective weapon.


Try fighting multiple opponents with your fists. Now try it with weighted fists. Now try it with a longer reach weapon. See which is easier.


A closer example of this kind of weaponry is the push dagger or Katar.

Push daggers and Katar are used for their armor piercing potential, not the ability to fight multiple opponents.


Also note that unlike a power sword, axe, halberd, ect. it's exceedingly hard or impossible to disarm without knocking out the opponent or cutting off the hand.


Agreed.

Maidel
03-11-2007, 23:56
Try fighting multiple opponents with your fists. Now try it with weighted fists. Now try it with a longer reach weapon. See which is easier..

All of these types of comparason are completely irrelavent as you are talking about a fully powered suit - so long as the weight is within the power armoured weight limit - its not an issue.

now - if you are comparing a power sword to a power fist - something that is obviously outiside of the suits capability to support fully - now your comparason fits perfectly.

Brother Siccarius
04-11-2007, 05:26
Try fighting multiple opponents with your fists. Now try it with weighted fists. Now try it with a longer reach weapon. See which is easier.



Push daggers and Katar are used for their armor piercing potential, not the ability to fight multiple opponents.


Which is exactly the point, you need to stop looking at it as a different way of using a power weapon and look at it as an enhanced way of attacking with your fist. Your response makes it seem like you're attacking and aiming with the blades themselves, which isn't the point at all. You're supposed to aim with the fist not the blade. You have the power weapon on the lightning claw for it's armor piercing potential to your otherwise basic fist strikes. When fighting with the Lightning Claws you're not swiping with the claws, you're attacking with the fist, which is why you see people doing uppercuts and punching motions with the Lightning claw in the 40k art and not simply swiping with the claws. You're not trying to hit them with the claws, you're trying to hit them with your fist, it's just an added bonus of the lightning claws that when you hit them with the fist you hit them with the claws as well.

There's really no other current weapon that quite compairs to it other than the push dagger or the katar, and both were used in the same way, not aiming the blade at the enemy, but aiming the fist at the enemy, and the weapon goes with it. It's not the normal aiming with the head of the weapon that goes along with hafted or normal handled weapons, but aiming with the fist instead. The weapon follows your hand strikes, not your hand following the weapon strikes. You're not trying to use the longer reach, the only reach you care about when using a punching weapon is the reach of your arms.

Perhaps it'd be better for you to ignore the blades in order to understand it, instead think of it like a set of brass knucles, they increase the magnitude of the punch, but don't otherwise change how you punch with it. In using a punching weapon like a katar or a push dagger, you don't change the way you punch at all, you just simply punch. Not swipe. You ignore the weapons presence because it doesn't require your concentration to be effective, just for you to connect fist with foe.

brother alinski
04-11-2007, 08:24
The claws and talons are used for gripping and grappelling in your examples. Kills are made with beak and teeth, unless the cat starts racking with rear claws in the grappel. There's even footage of a lioness choking out a prey animal by clamping its mouth over the critters muzzle.

you missed the point the claw wouldant be as effective if it was a singal claw (same with the talon).

The Reason people use Lighting claws is the same reason people use power swords or power axes or storm hammers or a power mace or power fists or power helbards. its a different type of weapon. it has advantages and disadvantages. different style of combat it can be used for punching and slashing (the blades are curved on some). it is symply a weapon that has been developed to fit a style of warfare. exactly the same as a stileto or broad sword or rapier or katana.

Eidolon
04-11-2007, 10:32
BUT, aren't it silly really? A power sword will do the exact same thing. And you'll more range and a less weapon that has a less chance of being destroyed in battle. Of course the claws are hard, but if you cut through some of the wires you have and (almost) useless weapon..


Jinjulas

What isn't silly in 40k? If it were anything remotely realistic, SM's would hardly have any cc units at all. In real life, guns>swords>obscure weapons like clawed fists. But in the realm of 40k, rule of cool reigns supreme.

Burnthem
04-11-2007, 10:40
A sword or Thunder hammer requires skill to wield successfully, lightning claws enable you to fight instinctively, to effectively just brawl with the enemy, safe in the knowledge that almost every blow you make with your fists, whether its a punch, slash or whatever, will cause significant damage.

Personally, if i knew i was going into a hand to hand only fight, i would take lightning claws over any other weapon, but thats just me ;)

graveaccomplice
04-11-2007, 11:30
A sword or Thunder hammer requires skill to wield successfully, lightning claws enable you to fight instinctively, to effectively just brawl with the enemy, safe in the knowledge that almost every blow you make with your fists, whether its a punch, slash or whatever, will cause significant damage.

Personally, if i knew i was going into a hand to hand only fight, i would take lightning claws over any other weapon, but thats just me ;)


Ummm... no. There's a reason brawlers lose to skilled fighters, even when they possess weapons. Having claws doesn't guarantee any kind of hit. Instincts will not kick in and suddenly make you an effective fighter. You'll be just as dangerous to yourself as to your opponent if you don't train to some degree.

If punching were that instinctive, 90% of all fights wouldn't go to grappling/on the ground almost immediately. Folks who've punched others would not have broken hand or wrist bones in the process of a punch. There's a reason karateka take so much time learning a punches alignment. It takes that long to make it instinctive.

graveaccomplice
04-11-2007, 11:46
you missed the point the claw wouldant be as effective if it was a singal claw (same with the talon).


Your example was flawed. Your claimed that the animals used their claws/talons for fast attacks. Cats do this as an equivalent to a jab. Not specifically to harm, but to get you to move/leave an opening. Birds rarely do that much. Anything with talons grabs and doesn't let go, letting the beak make the kill (note the perigrin falcons tend to use the force of their impact [speed in the triple digits] to kill preu birds). Roosters require artificial spurs to make your fast attack analogy work for them. Their original intend is to land so many smaller wounds that you run away. Anything they want to kill is usually pecked to death (if they can manage).

In either case the claws/talons rarely killed. They were rarely used in extended combats except as non-lethal combats against each other.


Now take into account velociraptors single large claw, or a rhino's single horn. Look at a bull's paired large horns (as opposed to several smaller ones). Compare the lion's canines to their claws. It's the larger weapons that tend to generate the most kills.

Burnthem
04-11-2007, 12:11
Ummm... no. There's a reason brawlers lose to skilled fighters, even when they possess weapons. Having claws doesn't guarantee any kind of hit. Instincts will not kick in and suddenly make you an effective fighter. You'll be just as dangerous to yourself as to your opponent if you don't train to some degree.

If punching were that instinctive, 90% of all fights wouldn't go to grappling/on the ground almost immediately. Folks who've punched others would not have broken hand or wrist bones in the process of a punch. There's a reason karateka take so much time learning a punches alignment. It takes that long to make it instinctive.

Which is why marines train all day every day if thier not actually fighting, if the guard were given lightning claws that would be correct, they would probably do themselves more harm than good, however in the hands of a marine the claws enable the to 'wade in' and not pay to much attention to specific techniques as you would do with a sword.

Besides, skilled fighters have to be VERY skilled to take down an aggressive enough brawler,thats one of the reasons the british army doesn't teach any hand to hand combat other than basic bayonet fighting, its far better to rely on natural fear and aggression to carry you through than some aikido wrist lock or Tae-Kwondo tornado kick, i do both aikido and tae-kwondo, as well as being in a british infantry regiment, so i know what im talking about.

Dont get me wrong, some basic training isnt going to do any harm, its just that sheer natural aggression is the winner in 90% of fights. :)

brother alinski
04-11-2007, 13:29
Your example was flawed. Your claimed that the animals used their claws/talons for fast attacks. Cats do this as an equivalent to a jab. Not specifically to harm, but to get you to move/leave an opening. Birds rarely do that much. Anything with talons grabs and doesn't let go, letting the beak make the kill (note the perigrin falcons tend to use the force of their impact [speed in the triple digits] to kill preu birds). Roosters require artificial spurs to make your fast attack analogy work for them. Their original intend is to land so many smaller wounds that you run away. Anything they want to kill is usually pecked to death (if they can manage).

In either case the claws/talons rarely killed. They were rarely used in extended combats except as non-lethal combats against each other.


Now take into account velociraptors single large claw, or a rhino's single horn. Look at a bull's paired large horns (as opposed to several smaller ones). Compare the lion's canines to their claws. It's the larger weapons that tend to generate the most kills.

You keep missing the point. I never said claws kill, what im saying is claws and talons use the fact that they have 4 or more claws to catch there prey at high speed. if a cats claws was replaced by a bigger singal clawin the middal, or a talons were replaced with a singal large one, it wouldant work as well. if they skimed there prey it they would miss it, but with 4 claws 1 is enouf to pull them off balance so you can get the other 3 in. if u want more proof watch a cat chase a rabbit.

Warp_touched
04-11-2007, 17:35
As its already been said, being able to wade through a big group of orks/ 'Gaunts/ giant brick of cheese just waving your arms whatever way pleases you most would be pretty dayum sweet. Alot easier to wield then some big honkin' sword, and of course;

They're soooooooo coooool!

graveaccomplice
04-11-2007, 18:11
You keep missing the point. I never said claws kill, what im saying is claws and talons use the fact that they have 4 or more claws to catch there prey at high speed. if a cats claws was replaced by a bigger singal clawin the middal, or a talons were replaced with a singal large one, it wouldant work as well. if they skimed there prey it they would miss it, but with 4 claws 1 is enouf to pull them off balance so you can get the other 3 in. if u want more proof watch a cat chase a rabbit.

Your original post stated that 4 blades were better than one for fast attacks, and you sited cats. I statd that the claws were for grappeling and jabs, which you are partially agreeing to now.

Now re-watch the cat chase the rabbit. It catches it with claws (foreclaws usually) and bite/disembowel with rear claws for the kill. The foreclaws do't kill, provide traction. They rarely go deep enough to do more than superficial damage.There is more of them to cover a wider area in this regard.

Look at the tools animals use to kill. Large horns, single stingers, gripping and smashing repeatedly, etc. There's a pattern there.

graveaccomplice
04-11-2007, 18:20
Which is why marines train all day every day if thier not actually fighting, if the guard were given lightning claws that would be correct, they would probably do themselves more harm than good, however in the hands of a marine the claws enable the to 'wade in' and not pay to much attention to specific techniques as you would do with a sword.

Besides, skilled fighters have to be VERY skilled to take down an aggressive enough brawler,thats one of the reasons the british army doesn't teach any hand to hand combat other than basic bayonet fighting, its far better to rely on natural fear and aggression to carry you through than some aikido wrist lock or Tae-Kwondo tornado kick, i do both aikido and tae-kwondo, as well as being in a british infantry regiment, so i know what im talking about.

Dont get me wrong, some basic training isnt going to do any harm, its just that sheer natural aggression is the winner in 90% of fights. :)

A former marine infantryman, spent 5 years in Aikido, and 6 years in Iaido. Looking to get back into the sword within the next year. Currently working as security. While I wouldn't knock your experience, mine tells me that raw aggression only goes so far. A brawler gets deflated very quickly with that wrist lock (yes, I've done it) as well as a kick to the groin or elbow to the face. A shattered knee (easy to accomplish against the rash fighter) works just as well.


We can chalk it up to differing views, but mine says that raw aggression and flailing will just get you killed.

brother alinski
04-11-2007, 18:50
Your original post stated that 4 blades were better than one for fast attacks, and you sited cats. I statd that the claws were for grappeling and jabs, which you are partially agreeing to now.

Now re-watch the cat chase the rabbit. It catches it with claws (foreclaws usually) and bite/disembowel with rear claws for the kill. The foreclaws do't kill, provide traction. They rarely go deep enough to do more than superficial damage.There is more of them to cover a wider area in this regard.

Look at the tools animals use to kill. Large horns, single stingers, gripping and smashing repeatedly, etc. There's a pattern there.

ok i know where we have gone wrong in my original pose i mean they are used for fast attacks. as in running up and pouncing i e one attack multipul times (on different targets). i think you thought i meant they use them to slash there prey to death. not true.

o and btw cats do use them in a teratoryal fight along with there teeth etc so thats another use.

Brother Siccarius
04-11-2007, 19:09
A former marine infantryman, spent 5 years in Aikido, and 6 years in Iaido. Looking to get back into the sword within the next year. Currently working as sucurity. While I would knock your experience, mine terlls me that raw aggression only goes so far. A brawler gets deflated very quickly with that wrist lock (yes, I've done it) as well as a kick to the groin or elbow to the face. A shattered knee (easy to accomplish against the rash fighter) works just as well.


We can chalk it up to differing views, but my says that raw aggression and flailing will just get you killed.

Then perhaps it'd be easier to view the Space Marines as training in various forms of unarmed combat, most likely the style varying from chapter to chapter. Much of which would place emphasis on hard hand and feet attacks rather than softer attacks or holds, something along the lines of Hung Ga or Southern Praying Mantis styles of fighting. Likely more watered down through the millenia with elements of boxing and other fighting styles added in. The chance of breaking the wrist of arm bones while throwing a punch are significantly reduced with the bone strengthening of the Space Marine's genetic enhancements and their Powered armor, which provides most of the strength to the attack as well as taking most of the beating from the fight.

But the basic idea behind the lightning claw is that it enhances the wearers basic fist attacks rather than being the main focus of the attack. You're still attacking with your fist, you just have the lightning claw there to add the extra armor penetration to it.