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The_Dragon_Rising
02-11-2007, 16:05
Without spoiling the new codex, blah deh blah de blah, ie dont upset the mods- Does anyone else think that the Warboss could become obselete in the new Ork Codex?

Personally I think that even with T5 it isnt going to make much a difference, assuming around 6 attacks on a charge, without the choppa, he is going to have to use a PK to be able to get through saves in combat. However as an independant char striking last with a 4+ save you are likely to survive only a couple of rounds a combat so thats going to be around 8 kills for a model costing, i would assume 100points. Alternativly taking mega armour means you survive longer in combat but if its still slow then getting to the next brawl could be a problem. The option to take nobz as troops could be useful but im not sure how much i would use it at anything less than 2k.

Other choices in the codex could be better IMO.
A Warpead/Weirdboy is another option. Being an ork i doubt they'll be a slouch in CC but worse than the other choices is expected. However with psychic powers they will be able to kill things before combat is joined, or possibly buff other boyz, this means that for- i would expect- less points that the boss you get an HQ also to kill around 8 models but also to be a boost for other units. Ld 7/8 could be a problem but if they can use the mob rule (ie numbers as ld) then this could quite often be 10.

A Big Mek i can see being the popular choice simply because of the SAG and if rumors are true then an ap2 pie plate is likely to be a powerful option. With the SAG i would expect that this is another HQ that could equal the warboss for kills. The mek also would be better than the boss at support though. With meks toolz it could fix vehicles, with a KFF it could give a cover save, they are rumored to make a Deff Dread to be take as a troop and again i would expect them not to be a slouch in combat.

Out of the rumored 3 "basic" choices it appears, to me, that the Boss is the worst choice and if characters follow the way of the previous codex characters then they will be quite powerful and worthy choices.

So i ask for your thoughts. Warboss obselete?

cerealkiller195
02-11-2007, 16:11
Warboss will not become obsolete ork players just have different choices on the direction of their army. I think most people will run a bike boss to try and get at stationary units with a toughness of 6 it's quite hard to wound him.

Also mek w/ SAG needs to be protected far more than the other two choices, because it is the one that has to stay in deployment/not move for the most part. While the boss and wyrdboy usually are in the front of advances. Besides lootas there aren't that many stationary ork units

The_Dragon_Rising
02-11-2007, 16:24
Also mek w/ SAG needs to be protected far more than the other two choices, because it is the one that has to stay in deployment/not move for the most part. While the boss and wyrdboy usually are in the front of advances. Besides lootas there aren't that many stationary ork units

Well unless they send vehicles or jump troopers to hunt him specifically, in doing so taking them out the game for 2 turns or so, then the IC status should protect him, simply becuase he wont be the closest target.

The Song of Spears
02-11-2007, 16:26
Well, look at it this way... The way of mega characters has somewhat died with the new chaos dex. Where the best save anyone will get is a putting a HQ in terminator armour.

So if you use your warboss in conjunction with other orks your opponent will have to make a hard choice = attack warboss and hope you score three wound and the warboss fails alll three invulnerable saves, and then get smashed and likely instakilled by a nob with a powerklaw, or attack the orks and let a str warboss insta kill you with his 6 PK attacks.

and also keep in mind a warboss with mega armour is only 100 points, not bad for a model that cant be instakilled by a powerfist, and is in terminator armour with 6 str 10 power klaw attacks on the charge. Or he is only 75 points with a 4+/5+ save and 6 str 8 attacks on the charge at init 5... still instakilling most IC's if they fail only 1 save...

Jon_Irenicus
02-11-2007, 16:42
The Warboss is pretty cool, cheap as a bottle stopper and hard as a nail.

I'd take a Mek, if not only to see the awesome destructive power of the Shokk Attack Gun on a squad of termies! The Weirdboy is odd enough, and too close to feral orks for my liking, so I think I'll stick with these two. The other choice, the Painboss, also allows for an interesting army but it really depends on how you want your army to look and feel.

Kriegsherr
02-11-2007, 16:50
Well, look at it this way... The way of mega characters has somewhat died with the new chaos dex. Where the nest save anyone will get is a putting a HQ in terminator armour.


This is a very important thing so many people tend to overlook when bitching about the new WB not being up to the challenge.

Once every codex is redone in the DA/CSM Fashion, there will be not much super-characters left. And I really expect that the Ork WB ends up somewhere at the top of the ladder.

Sure, he has no PW-Equiv or somesuch, but there are not many characters that get S8 with I5 on the charge... besides the Abbadabadooo-don of course. And with the only characters left with a 2+ save being the Phoenix Lords, SM and CSM in Termi Armour and pimped Tyrants, and all other being 3+ and worse, its not that bad.

Also now other armies also wont get the whole list of CC Upgrades... no more re-rolling to-hit rolls for chaos and DA characters comes to mind... So expect every army to have some standard choices every army gets and some special choices, while other choices being left out (in the case of the orks the PW fall into the last category, sad but o so true)

Eldanar
02-11-2007, 16:59
The warboss presumably is going to allow the entire army to Waaagh!

That alone makes him an indispensable choice for the Ork army as a whole.

malisteen
02-11-2007, 17:10
The problem with the I-1 power claw isn't that the warboss will die easier (at least, not against troops - you'll want to keep him out of the reach of monsterous creatures and the like, though that hasn't changed from before).

The problem is that unless the boss is running on his own he'll never get to attack.

Think about it. Most of the time an IC only gets in base with 1, maybe 2 enemy models. So his retinue will attack before him, most likely killing a couple models. The enemy just has to pull those casualties from those in base with the warboss and he won't get to attack at all that round.

Hopefully the PC won't be the only way for a warboss to get through troop armor.

The Song of Spears
02-11-2007, 17:21
So give him a str 7 regular weapon, does everyone have to carry a power weapon? These are orks after all...

Vault-Dweller
02-11-2007, 17:37
Thr powerclaw offers some flexibility, you can use it as an additional handweapon if you want, and there are lots of situations when you can use a s 10 poweclaw backed up with t5. The choppa was never that good for independent characters anyway.

Dribble Joy
02-11-2007, 17:48
and also keep in mind a warboss with mega armour is only 100 points, not bad for a model that cant be instakilled by a powerfist, and is in terminator armour with 6 str 10 power klaw attacks on the charge.
Mega armour is SAP, and he can't take an additional weapon. So that's 4 attacks, charge or not, or 5 with a squig.


Or he is only 75 points with a 4+/5+ save and 6 str 8 attacks on the charge at init 5... still instakilling most IC's if they fail only 1 save...

95 actually, unless you use grotsnik for the cheaper cybork body. The big choopa is two-handed so for 6 attacks you need a squig.

The Song of Spears
02-11-2007, 18:32
Mega armour is SAP, and he can't take an additional weapon. So that's 4 attacks, charge or not, or 5 with a squig.



95 actually, unless you use grotsnik for the cheaper cybork body. The big choopa is two-handed so for 6 attacks you need a squig.

Yeah i assumed they had the slugga always, but it looks like they loose it with MA and the uge choppa is two hanged... oh well, they are still dirt cheap for how much punishment they can dish out if you don't kill them...

Latro_
02-11-2007, 18:44
On a bike, PK, cybork, attack squig
4+ save, 4+ cover 5+ inv in combat.

T6 cant be inst killed by much.

Fighting last is not a problem.
By himself on a bike he can turbo and hide wherever he likes and pick assaults against normal units...

Hits combat, marines need 6's to wound him then 4+ save. He then hits back with 7 s10 attacks. + any deffgun shots when he came in.

Then factor in big tank hunting

150ish pts, He's horrible.

bosstroll
02-11-2007, 19:07
On a bike, PK, cybork, attack squig
4+ save, 4+ cover 5+ inv in combat.

T6 cant be inst killed by much.

Fighting last is not a problem.
By himself on a bike he can turbo and hide wherever he likes and pick assaults against normal units...

Hits combat, marines need 6's to wound him then 4+ save. He then hits back with 7 s10 attacks. + any deffgun shots when he came in.

Then factor in big tank hunting

150ish pts, He's horrible.

My brothers old (as in 1993ish) warboss on cyboar is going to roam the battlefields again....
Granted, a warbike these days will never be as nasty as a cyboar back then, but still ;)

And he has 13 more boarboys to go with the big guy :(


And you should really take a warboss anyway, its fluffy and hes ded'ard :skull:

Dribble Joy
02-11-2007, 19:12
oh well, they are still dirt cheap for how much punishment they can dish out if you don't kill them...

Indeed, 6 attacks, 3 hits vs most characters, 2.5 wounds, good chance of a 3+ save beakie commander going squish.

An MA boss is still pretty good with 5 attacks, with T5 even an MC-LC commander charging with FC is very unlikely to kill him (6 attacks, 3.5 hits, 2.6 wounds, 1.75 taken), then the WB gets 2.5 hits, 2.08 wounds and 1.04 unsaved, so statistically an MA boss (not even charging) will kill virtually any normal char except a libby.
Even an MC-PF commander (which would only be str 9 with FC) gets 2.2 wounds on him but wouldn't instakill.

OK, I forgot adamantine mantles, but the price of an MC-FC, mantled, FC char is dirty, and when the redux comes along a lot of their toys will hopefully get dumped.

Killgore
02-11-2007, 19:18
The warboss presumably is going to allow the entire army to Waaagh!

That alone makes him an indispensable choice for the Ork army as a whole.

the most important point!

plus hes rather handy in a scrap and cant be instakilled by those annoying spacemarine powerfists

AyatollahofRockinRolla
02-11-2007, 19:39
I won't be using one. I've settled on a Big Mek/Warp 'ead combo. I like the rumoured reroll that the warp 'ead gets on the power chart.

Easy E
02-11-2007, 19:40
And you should really take a warboss anyway, its fluffy and hes ded'ard :skull:

I thought this was the most important point. ;)

Although I plan on using the Big Mek for my Stompa Tribe. DeffDred for the win!

Latro_
02-11-2007, 19:43
the most important point!

plus hes rather handy in a scrap and cant be instakilled by those annoying spacemarine powerfists


rumour has it waaghh is just a general rule, you dont actually need a warboss to invoke it

Dribble Joy
02-11-2007, 19:44
Although I plan on using the Big Mek for my Stompa Tribe. DeffDred for the win!
Take two! Then your troops are filled with dreads and then you can take three more (or 9 Kans).
Add some MANs and you have a very stompy list.

And yes, the Waaagh! rules doesn't need a WB.

Bloodknight
02-11-2007, 19:55
Yep, Waaagh is a general rule. But still, a Warboss is quite impressive with a big choppa and a Squig. And yes, the time of super characters seems to be over. Yesterday I had for example my Chaos lord of Nurgle with daemon weapon duke it out against a space Marine Captain over4 combat turns. He got the better save and Lightning Claws, I got a few more attacks, but as these were at S4 wounding was quite hard. The WB would have probably squished one of them on the charge. And he'd be cheaper by a big margin.

Latro_
02-11-2007, 20:00
Mad doc grotsnik is gonna be very common I think, esp with GW's shift in the inclusion of special characters.

Any unit he joins becomes fearless and has feel no pain!... i mean HELLO!!! that unit of 30 shoota boyz just became alot lot lot harder!

Plus he's power klawed up and his stats are no too shabby, and hes fairly cheap.

Dribble Joy
02-11-2007, 20:04
Erm... grotsnik is roughly the cost of 11 beakies.....

Also, one for the FAQ. A nobs mob can take a Waaagh! banner, which is +1 WS, which may or may not also affect any characters joined to it, at WS6 the WB would be quite comfortable going up to even chaos lords with daemon weapons.

superknijn
02-11-2007, 20:12
It won't differ that much. WS is one of the least important stats, really; nice to have if you have it, but nopt really all that necessary.

How about a Warboss on a warbike with Cybork body, slugga and power klaw?
4 S10 attacks, and 5of them on the charge, ignoring armour saves. Ideally against the opponents Hq's, I'd say. You only have a 4+ save, but most HQ's have power weapons, and you still have T5(6) with a 5+ Invlunerable save.

Dribble Joy
02-11-2007, 20:14
Having you opponent hitting you on threes is a lot different from hitting you on 4s. If you're WS 6 then that pesky spikey lord is having a lot harder time of it. Hitting that beakie commander on 3s allways helps too.

And a WB on a bike can have 7 attacks on the charge, slugga, PK and squig.

Brother Siccarius
02-11-2007, 20:47
The problem with the I-1 power claw isn't that the warboss will die easier (at least, not against troops - you'll want to keep him out of the reach of monsterous creatures and the like, though that hasn't changed from before).

The problem is that unless the boss is running on his own he'll never get to attack.

Think about it. Most of the time an IC only gets in base with 1, maybe 2 enemy models. So his retinue will attack before him, most likely killing a couple models. The enemy just has to pull those casualties from those in base with the warboss and he won't get to attack at all that round.

Hopefully the PC won't be the only way for a warboss to get through troop armor.

Simple answer, a model gets to decide what it's attacking with in close combat.

Say you're going up against a guardsmen squad. You want the warboss to be attacking some time before your enemy gets to remove the models from combat with him. That's actually quite simple to do really and is actually an easier choice since we lost the choppa. Tool your warboss with the PK and a slugga. Slugga counts as a close combat weapon in close combat, PK counts as a power fist in close combat, you get to choose which weapon you use in close combat as your main weapon. So you use the slugga in close combat as your main weapon and the PK just becomes an additional close combat weapon.

Now say you're going up against a tough nut like an MC, tank or termie. You want to have the full force to the fore and you don't think your boyz will be able to kill it. So you have the Warboss use the PK as his combat weapon and the slugga is back to an additional combat weapon.

Pretty much the exact same circumstances as described on page 46 of the main rulebook.

Face it, if your boyz are pulling down enough of the enemy to remove the warboss from combat, then he doesn't need to be using the power klaw, and if you're afraid of the enemy not dieing in proppa' fashion then you need to be using it. As a Speed freek I've been using this combo with my Biker boss for a good few years now.

In my opinion, the warboss will always be king of the ring on the battlefield and will be able to take on his fair share of the enemy. The Mek is a good choice, but will need some backup (just put him in a unit of grots, it works wonders). The Weirdboy is an interesting addition , but that's really all he is is an addition, not really there for the one two punch of a Warboss or a Mek, but he's still a definite go getter.

victorpofa
02-11-2007, 20:56
I am liking the Wazdakka Gutsmek HQ because rumor has it he allows you to field bikes as troops. Dakkawing! = Old Speed Freeks List!! This was the army I was assembling before the new codex was even rumored. Even though the bikes lost a lot I still like this concept. I can use the old bikes for the boyz and the new really awesome ones for the Nobs.

The regular Warboss allows Deffwing armies. Imagine two Mega bosses with 5 mobs of Mega Nobs careening towards you in battlewagons. Scary, eh?

Or use one on a bike with a mob of nob bikers for troops. This will be my alternate HQ for Dakkawing, and maybe my command squad for footslogger Orks.

I hope the December Ork box comes with the Codex!

MuttMan
02-11-2007, 21:14
He can ignore str8 instant kill, requiring 10 to die from it.
He can have a 5+ inv save.
He can have either 2+ save or 4+ with T(6) on bike.
Str8+I5 on the charge or str10 striking last.
Add an attack, and/or some dakka like a kombi skorcha (my fav).

I would say he can take other characters down with ease. Hard to instant kill him with most of the characters out there, fabius bile and plaguelords come to mind when thinking of rivals for this character.

As for the *bonus* this character gives to the army. I could easily say, you can pack 8 battlewagons in one FOC. Orks never had it so good.

Dreadnut armies
Battlewagon armies
Dakka armies
Speed armies
Swamp'em armies

Gotta catch them all! (yeah, I just liked pokemon with orks =p)

superknijn
02-11-2007, 21:18
Having you opponent hitting you on threes is a lot different from hitting you on 4s. If you're WS 6 then that pesky spikey lord is having a lot harder time of it. Hitting that beakie commander on 3s allways helps too.

And a WB on a bike can have 7 attacks on the charge, slugga, PK and squig.

Well, against Chaos Lords it would be, ofcourse, better. You're right there. Although apparently everyone uses Slaaneshi sorcerers these days.
You'd best keep him cheap, and who needs more than 6 S10 armour-piercing attacks anyway?

volair
02-11-2007, 21:49
I just want to mention that the Warboss is indeed obsolete because there is a new special character on a Bike which is superior to a Warboss on a bike for only a little more points. A Warboss on foot is inferior to a Big Mek with Kustom Force Field.

Defcon
02-11-2007, 22:26
I just want to mention that the Warboss is indeed obsolete because there is a new special character on a Bike which is superior to a Warboss on a bike for only a little more points. A Warboss on foot is inferior to a Big Mek with Kustom Force Field.

That's debatable, because of the Strength values of each. Even with his bike's special rule. And besides - what kind of person wants to use a special character every game if you aren't playing in a tournament?

alex03
03-11-2007, 00:03
Look at it this way, a warboss with a powerklaw cant be insta killed by anyone elses charcter who has a powerfist, and can insta kill everyone elses characters, baring demon princes and tyranids. I'd say the warboss is one of the best characters, so who wouldn't take one?

Dribble Joy
03-11-2007, 02:48
you can pack 8 battlewagons in one FOC.
But remember that only three of them can have the killkannon, and the absolute
minimum points cost for that (2 WBs, 5 3 strong nob mobs and the 8 wagons (which will be weaponless)) is the cost of 76 marines. By the time you have bought anyone anything meaningful, you're at 1500 and with 34 models.

sabreu
03-11-2007, 03:23
Can someone point to me the right direction of 8 battlewagons please? I only see the possibility of six, so I'm a little confused or did I miss sum ding spechul?

Edit: Never mind, just realized it by reading the above post. >_<

Marius Xerxes
03-11-2007, 03:29
I think if your going to go for the warboss option ya should get Gazgull. He is very good in this new edition and how his personal rules affect the army's Waaagh very, very nicely. I also think a warphead is nice because some of his rules can also have good, entire army affecting powers. The Special character warphead i think everyone would enjoy his unique power he has. It will definatly have people saying "You did WHAT to my character?!"

Brother Siccarius
03-11-2007, 05:42
That's debatable, because of the Strength values of each. Even with his bike's special rule. And besides - what kind of person wants to use a special character every game if you aren't playing in a tournament?

Even more debatable if you want a foot slogging army with the warboss support. instead of a biker army.

Kasonic
03-11-2007, 06:57
The Special character warphead i think everyone would enjoy his unique power he has. It will definatly have people saying "You did WHAT to my character?!"

My favorite part is that they keep the squig. I have a Necron friend who frequently uses C'tan and I can't wait to use Zogwort on him.


I just want to mention that the Warboss is indeed obsolete because there is a new special character on a Bike which is superior to a Warboss on a bike for only a little more points.

It depends.

For 45 points, you get:
-1 I, -1 S, +1 T
-Stikkbombs
-A much better gun and the ability to shoot it while Turbo-boosting

While he's better in most cases, 45 points is a lot if your army list is becoming tight.

fwacho
03-11-2007, 07:39
sounds like this dex is going to be pretty cool. My main concerns is that my 45 grots still play an important part. (I bled converting those models and they are so loyal and hard working for me.) I think my converted storm boy nob will use the specail character's rules for him. (he's modeled with power talons on his feet. you can see it in my gallery)

My war boss will porblay stay on. toguh ness 5 means I can use him more effectivley athan before. I used to run him with my cyborks (who apparently just got meaner) in a truck. Teh real question will be choosing between The Zagstruck character and him as I am most attached to my Pain Boss.

Lord Humungus
03-11-2007, 08:15
Teh real question will be choosing between The Zagstruck character and him as I am most attached to my Pain Boss.


Luckily for you, Zagstrukk doesn't take an HQ slot.

victorpofa
03-11-2007, 14:15
Luckily for you, Zagstrukk doesn't take an HQ slot.

I like this idea. He is a merc for hire so not a leader of your troops. All he cares about is his stormboyz and getting stuck in.

Vishok
03-11-2007, 16:15
My warboss is nastier than his I8 previous incarnation!

Even with lower I and a different Waagh! rule, with a big choppa he's S8 on the charge!!

Normal Initiative!!

and S7 not on the charge!!

No way, no how are warbosses obsolete. That's silly fear-mongering.

Killgore
03-11-2007, 16:56
For 45 points, you get:
-1 I, -1 S, +1 T
-Stikkbombs
-A much better gun and the ability to shoot it while Turbo-boosting

While he's better in most cases, 45 points is a lot if your army list is becoming tight.


most important point is that he allows bikeboyz to count as troop choices, i would love to have a all bike mounted Ork army led by Warboss and the Biker special character :)

new bike models are so lovely

Grazzy
03-11-2007, 16:56
I would take a bike mounted boos to take out small devestator squads and the like single handed. With T6 he may not kill them all but can be sure of stopping several heavy weapons firing every turn.

Vault-Dweller
04-11-2007, 15:29
The reason he is "obsolete" is that all the HQ option are good and you cant get them all. And the special characters are almost too good compared to the regular ones. But there are good reasons to get an warboss. But I will probably go for an bigmek with a shock attack gun. Is it the best option? Who knows? but it looks fun.

Mr_Rose
04-11-2007, 16:14
The reason he is "obsolete" is that all the HQ option are good and you cant get them all. And the special characters are almost too good compared to the regular ones. But there are good reasons to get an warboss. But I will probably go for an bigmek with a shock attack gun. Is it the best option? Who knows? but it looks fun.
You are allowed more than one HQ choice you know...

As for silliness; how about 88 bikes in an army with no special characters?
2x warboss on bike (2)
3x Elite Nob bikers x10 (30)
2x Troop Nob bikers x10 (20)
3x Fast Attack Warbikes x12 (36)
TOTAL: 88 bikes and it only costs around 3,500pts.

...And $Texas, but who's counting?:p

Vault-Dweller
04-11-2007, 17:11
I know that. I didnt want to talk too mutch aboute my army just point out one more nice option.