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FalseAngel
03-11-2007, 19:14
OK, so I've been kinda out of the loop for a while because I shifted more towards Privateer Press's game systems, but the new Chapter Council and new Chaos figs have got me coming back to buy some more GW goodness to paint.

Now, I'm kind of a background nut, so looking at the WD page on this new Chapter Council I noticed something was amiss... Captain Sicarius is supposed to be the Captain of the 2nd company, but here in the Council is some other Captain of the 2nd company who looks nothing like Sicarius (he already has a model after all).

While I understand the Chapter Council is supposed to be a 'generic' SM unit, and not a Ultra Marine only thing, the 3rd Company Captain model has Captain Ardius's heraldry on his shoulder pad. Also the weapons that the Captains bear in the Council are apparently symbols of office? If that's so, then why did Sicarius previously have Lightning Claws when he's an Ultra Marine, someone who should be rather strict about Codex procedure?

I can't confirm any of the other model's heraldry, so I can't tell if the Master of the Watch is supposed to be Sicarius's new form or what. Is this a retcon, a mistake, or did Sicarius get killed/promoted in the global campaign that I missed?

Anyway, thanks for any insight into the matter, I much appreciate it. It can be a hassle catching up on minor tweaks sometimes when you take time off from the hobby.

jb85
03-11-2007, 19:27
I was under the impression that the Chapter Council represented the captains of the 3rd, 4th, 5th and 10th companies.

FalseAngel
03-11-2007, 19:35
I was under the impression that the Chapter Council represented the captains of the 3rd, 4th, 5th and 10th companies.

Says in WD "Captain of the 2nd Company, Master of the Watch" under the guy with axe and shield. The others are the 3rd (Master of the Arsenal), 4th (Master of the Fleet) and of course 10th (Master of Recruits, duh haha)

EDIT: Also, the 5th Captain already is listed as holding the title "Master of Marches"

Arkley
03-11-2007, 19:37
Sicarius was the 5th Co Captain he was the Master of the Marches.... It is possible that even with his promotion to the 2nd after Agemmon was promoted to the 1st, he has kept that title and his replacement became the Master of the Watch.

We could aslo consider Agemmon might still be the Regent of Ultramr and the Master of the Watch.

Also Captain Adrius is dead :(... He died fighting Tau iirc, his replacement is Captain Fabian.

FalseAngel
03-11-2007, 19:40
Sicarius is listed as the 2nd Company Captain in the SM codex... Captain Galenus is the 5th.

EDIT: May have misread your post... but still Galenus is listed as the Master of Marches, and Sicarius is the Captain of the 2nd in the SM codex. I have in my lap right here and I'm triple checking myself.

Also that definitely IS Ardias's Heraldry on that model... I wonder why if he's dead and is even listing in the Codex as being the 3rd's Captain... Probably typical GW handiwork here...

EDIT2: I'm not trying to be a jerk or anything, I'm just typing what is says, unless the new Codex is THAT out of date... it just doesn't add up.

Arkley
03-11-2007, 19:46
Sicarius is listed as the 2nd Company Captain in the SM codex... Captain Galenus is the 5th.

Yes I am aware of that...

But due to stuff happening...

Captain Invictus was killed at the Polar Fortress, Captain Agemmon (2nd Co Captain was promoted to the 1st Co).

Captain Agemmon was the Master of the Watch. He is now the Regent of Ultramar and possibly still the Master of the Watch.

Captain Sicarius was the 5th Co Captain, and Master of the Marches, he was promoted to the 2nd Co after Agemmon got promoted to the 1st Co....

FalseAngel
03-11-2007, 19:48
Agemman can't be the master of the watch, it says clearly the 2nd Captian, Master of the Watch. Also there's no white markings of the 1st on him. Each Captain's number is listed clearly in WD under each model and the codex definitively states that Galenus is Master of Marches.

Arkley
03-11-2007, 20:06
Well we can look at another case... Captain Uriel Ventris, is/was the Master of the Fleet, he gave over the title to Lord Admiral Lazlo Tiberius...

All I know is as follows...

1 Captain Invictus - Regent of Ultramar
2 Captain Agemmon - Master of the Watch
3 Captain Adrias - Master of the Arsenal
4 Captain Idaeus - Master of the Fleet
5 Captain Galenus - Master of the Marches...

Thats from the year 745 41.

As it stands now... ie 999 41.

1 Captain Agemmon - Regent of Ultramar
2 Captain Sicarius - Master of the Watch or possibly Master of the Marches
3 Captain Fabian - Master of the Arsenal
4 Captain Ventris/Learchus - None as the title is with Tiberius :).
5 Captain Sicarius - Master of the Marches or possibly Master of the Watch.

I doubt that the Codex would say the captain will automatically have the title...

Best example is Ventris with Tiberius, he gave it to the more experianced guy.


But lets face it GW are never consistant :)...

What I have written above I think is 100% current for the Ultramarines...

FalseAngel
03-11-2007, 20:19
I'm thinking it's just GW's inconsistency here... I know that the codex doesn't say that "these captains get these titles" but it really does specifically state that Galenus is the Master of Marches in the art section with the Heraldry for the captains, don't ask me why, prolly just cuz he has little other fluff for his section to be filled with :P

Thanks for bearing with me on this though, Arkley.

EDIT: As a side note, when did Ardias die, third sphere expansion of the tau (since that happened after that SM codex which lists him as Captain of the 3rd, so that must be outdated info now)

devolutionary
03-11-2007, 20:21
It could be set at any time, at any battle, at any event. Also remember that all generic marines are painted up in Ultramarine colours as the benchmark or base case of Space Marines. This is not an Ultramarine unit, it is a Space Marine unit with Ultramarines as an example because that is what they use for the model for all generic Space Marines. It may be that he changes equipment as needed, or that it's before he got all munched up and scarred. GWs timeline is flexible and the models are really just as elastic with continuity. It's not that much of a drama ;)

Mechanicus
03-11-2007, 20:24
Do we have evidence of Fabian being around in the late 990's, because it's possible to explain this as a new Captain with the same name, especially since Fire Warrior (set in the 990's) had Captain Ardias.

Either that, or, as above, they could be from a different time.

FalseAngel
03-11-2007, 20:25
It could be set at any time, at any battle, at any event. Also remember that all generic marines are painted up in Ultramarine colours as the benchmark or base case of Space Marines. This is not an Ultramarine unit, it is a Space Marine unit with Ultramarines as an example because that is what they use for the model for all generic Space Marines. It may be that he changes equipment as needed, or that it's before he got all munched up and scarred. GWs timeline is flexible and the models are really just as elastic with continuity. It's not that much of a drama ;)

This is also something I thought it might be, since 40k is a setting, not a story. We've already hit a dead end pretty much for the story. And I stated in my OP that I knew it was a generic unit, but at the same time it was supposed to be a Codex unit and it even was painted with at least one NAMED captain's Heraldry... Not to mention, come on, Ultra Marines are GW's favorite child for crying out loud, almost everything actually has more to do with them than any other chapter.

Arkley
03-11-2007, 20:31
I'm thinking it's just GW's inconsistency here... I know that the codex doesn't say that "these captains get these titles" but it really does specifically state that Galenus is the Master of Marches in the art section with the Heraldry for the captains, don't ask me why, prolly just cuz he has little other fluff for his section to be filled with :P

I agree Galenus is probably the Master of the Marches :).



Thanks for bearing with me on this though, Arkley.

Not a problem mate... I am jsut a little passionate about my Ultras :)



EDIT: As a side note, when did Ardias die, third sphere expansion of the tau (since that happened after that SM codex which lists him as Captain of the 3rd, so that must be outdated info now)

I am trying to find that piece a fluff again... I remember it due to the irony... He thought with the Tau vs Chaos and later died fighting the Tau, damn I wish I could remember where I read it.


Do we have evidence of Fabian being around in the late 990's, because it's possible to explain this as a new Captain with the same name, especially since Fire Warrior (set in the 990's) had Captain Ardias.

Either that, or, as above, they could be from a different time.

See my reply to FlaseAngel. :)

devolutionary
03-11-2007, 20:33
This is also something I thought it might be, since 40k is a setting, not a story.

Doesn't mean there's not a time line. Because it is a setting, it therefore is more flexible then a rigid story.


but at the same time it was supposed to be a Codex unit and it even was painted with at least one NAMED captain's Heraldry

I don't see how that effects the identity crisis that seems to be prevalent in this conversation though.

Not to mention, come on, Ultra Marines are GW's favorite child for crying out loud, almost everything actually has more to do with them than any other chapter.[/quote]

Again, what does the Ultramarines current position of the base case for all Marines (since they are generic. Using DAs, SWs, etc. would not work because of that, you couldn't have DAs as Codex Space Marines and then work from there) have to do with what you are sighting as a continuity/consistency error in what you agree is a setting, not a story?

The currently major sticking point is Sicarius right? There are already two incarnations of him (one in the Codex, one from Cities of Death), so a third isn't a major leap.

I'm just trying to understand why this is such an issue, because it just seems somewhat irrelevant for what is an example unit painted in recognised example colours.

Progena
03-11-2007, 20:37
You can just replace the Master of the Watch model with the Captain Sicarius model. There's no recuired wargear for any of the Masters, they just use the standard Commander entry in C:SM. The Masters of the Chapter entry is 200 pts. + models. You can equip all your Masters with Terminator armor if you want to. The wargear on the Master models are mainly symbolic of their standing within the Chapter. Perhaps Siccarius preferred weapon is a pair of Lightning Claws, but he fields the symbols of his office on more formal occations (as it's less likely that they'll get lost if he dies)?

Lexicanum's prolly pretty up to date on who's who in the UM.

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Ultramarines

If you want to keep it fluffy and also use both the Masters of the Chapter and the Battle Company Datasheets you should paint up the 5th Company, kinda hard to justify having two Siccariuses on the field for example.

EDIT: Commander entry, not Captain... soz

Arkley
03-11-2007, 20:41
Captain Ardias of the Ultramarines Third Company, led the Third Company against the Tau but later negotiated a cease fire with them when Governor Severus aligned himself with the daemon Tarkh'ax and the Word Bearers.
Ardias over rid the communications of a Tau Fire Warrior named La'Kais and guided him against the Word Bearers and subsequently helped Kais by holding of Tarkh'ax until Kais destroyed the daemon.
Sadly and ironically Captain Ardias was later killed battling the Tau in the Joran retaliation during the Damocles Crusade in 745.M41.

Captain Ardias led the Third Company, but died in battle in the Damocles Crusade. Fabian was confirmed as the successor on the Battle of Macragge against Hive Fleet Behemoth.

I remember Fabian becasue is was him and Severus the Dreadnought that wasted the Nid Tyrant.... Plasma Pistol to the Tyrants mush :).

Ivan Stupidor
03-11-2007, 20:48
Also the weapons that the Captains bear in the Council are apparently symbols of office? If that's so, then why did Sicarius previously have Lightning Claws when he's an Ultra Marine, someone who should be rather strict about Codex procedure?


When acting as Master of the Whatever (like when he's in a Chapter Council, or when he's presiding over a ceremony that calls for his official presence), a Captain will carry his ceremonial weapons and other symbols of his office. When he's acting as Company Captain, he is free to choose his weapons to suit his personal tastes and the mission needs. Thus when Sicarius is acting as Master of the Watch (or Marches), he will carry the ceremonial weapons. Otherwise, he's free to strap on his favourite claws and go stab things.

FalseAngel
03-11-2007, 20:50
Doesn't mean there's not a time line. Because it is a setting, it therefore is more flexible then a rigid story.

I don't see how that effects the identity crisis that seems to be prevalent in this conversation though.

Again, what does the Ultramarines current position of the base case for all Marines (since they are generic. Using DAs, SWs, etc. would not work because of that, you couldn't have DAs as Codex Space Marines and then work from there) have to do with what you are sighting as a continuity/consistency error in what you agree is a setting, not a story?

The currently major sticking point is Sicarius right? There are already two incarnations of him (one in the Codex, one from Cities of Death), so a third isn't a major leap.

I'm just trying to understand why this is such an issue, because it just seems somewhat irrelevant for what is an example unit painted in recognised example colours.

Perhaps I should have been more specific, I meant it is no longer a CONTINUOUS story, since we have hit the end (eye of terror), thus it is a setting (my major comparison is Warmachine/Hordes from Privateer Press, which each new book is a new chapter in an on going story)

However, most new units are current, and Sicarius was 2nd Captain at the time Ardias was 3rd. Ardias is in that unit, without a dout, OR Fabian has kept the former Captains heraldry, which changes nothing because as far as I know Sicarius is still Captain of the 2nd. Sicarius already has a model, and a recent one at that, where he does not have such weapons and his face looks nothing like that of this new model. From what I can tell these are supposed to be fairly current models with a current color scheme (Ardias's death to the Tau seems to be very recent)

What I wanted to know was if this was a typical GW mistake, or if Sicarius had died and been replaced. Sicarius is know to be a rather rough and scarred captain, and this new "2nd Captain" doesn't match that. So is this supposed to be Sicarius? (Like I said, these models without a doubt have UM flavor all over them, and they were painted to match that.)

FalseAngel
03-11-2007, 20:55
Captain Ardias of the Ultramarines Third Company, led the Third Company against the Tau but later negotiated a cease fire with them when Governor Severus aligned himself with the daemon Tarkh'ax and the Word Bearers.
Ardias over rid the communications of a Tau Fire Warrior named La'Kais and guided him against the Word Bearers and subsequently helped Kais by holding of Tarkh'ax until Kais destroyed the daemon.
Sadly and ironically Captain Ardias was later killed battling the Tau in the Joran retaliation during the Damocles Crusade in 745.M41.

Captain Ardias led the Third Company, but died in battle in the Damocles Crusade. Fabian was confirmed as the successor on the Battle of Macragge against Hive Fleet Behemoth.

I remember Fabian becasue is was him and Severus the Dreadnought that http://warseer.com/forums/images/smilies/skull.gif
:skull:wasted the Nid Tyrant.... Plasma Pistol to the Tyrants mush :).

Nice stuff, thanks Arkley. Sounds like Fabian has kept up the honour of the "Scourge of the Xenos" Company

Mechanicus
03-11-2007, 20:57
Captain Ardias of the Ultramarines Third Company, led the Third Company against the Tau but later negotiated a cease fire with them when Governor Severus aligned himself with the daemon Tarkh'ax and the Word Bearers.
Ardias over rid the communications of a Tau Fire Warrior named La'Kais and guided him against the Word Bearers and subsequently helped Kais by holding of Tarkh'ax until Kais destroyed the daemon.
Sadly and ironically Captain Ardias was later killed battling the Tau in the Joran retaliation during the Damocles Crusade in 745.M41.

Captain Ardias led the Third Company, but died in battle in the Damocles Crusade. Fabian was confirmed as the successor on the Battle of Macragge against Hive Fleet Behemoth.Sorry to distract from the main topic, but can you quote a source for the connection between Fire Warrior and the First Tyrannic War? I can find this source:

"In 745.M41 Brother Severus participated In the Joran retaliation against the alien Tau Empire, but the expedition proved ill-starred and the 3rd Company's Captain Ardias, was killed shortly before the whole force was withdrawn. Urgent new orders sent the Company back to Macragge to defend it from the advance of Hive Fleet Behemoth.
Of the great battle in space over the beleaguered world little can be said here, but the masterful defence by Marneus Calgar, Lord of the Ultramarines, can be read of in other places. In the aftermath it fell to the 3rd Company, under the newly elected Captain Fabian, to recapture the northern polar defence fortress on Macragge itself, Tyranid swarms had penetrated the orbital defences and overrun the sprawling complex of laser silos and bastions."

Which mentions nothing of the events of Fire Warrior. Is there any source that links the two Ardias'?

And I'd just assume it's the Ardias of the Joran Retaliation and another Captain from before Sicarius was elevated.

Arkley
03-11-2007, 21:11
Sorry to distract from the main topic, but can you quote a source for the connection between Fire Warrior and the First Tyrannic War? I can find this source:

"In 745.M41 Brother Severus participated In the Joran retaliation against the alien Tau Empire, but the expedition proved ill-starred and the 3rd Company's Captain Ardias, was killed shortly before the whole force was withdrawn. Urgent new orders sent the Company back to Macragge to defend it from the advance of Hive Fleet Behemoth.
Of the great battle in space over the beleaguered world little can be said here, but the masterful defence by Marneus Calgar, Lord of the Ultramarines, can be read of in other places. In the aftermath it fell to the 3rd Company, under the newly elected Captain Fabian, to recapture the northern polar defence fortress on Macragge itself, Tyranid swarms had penetrated the orbital defences and overrun the sprawling complex of laser silos and bastions."

Which mentions nothing of the events of Fire Warrior. Is there any source that links the two Ardias'?

And I'd just assume it's the Ardias of the Joran Retaliation and another Captain from before Sicarius was elevated.



Erhh I think you are answering your own question... There is no connection between Firewarrior and Behemoth... the connection is Firewarrior and the Joran Retaliation.

Adrias was Captain till he died in fighting the Tau, Fabian was promoted to Captain before the Battle for Macragge...

The events in Firewarrior happened before the Joran Retaliation. In which Adrias helped that FireWarrior, then the irony was he was killed by the same Aliens he helped in the past.

The Joran Retaliation was aborted, Adrias was dead, Fabian promoted...

So basically they are one in the same :)

Inquisitor Feldenhaus
03-11-2007, 21:22
Well, there is no set time period, so maybe he is from before or after Sicarus' time.

Arkley
03-11-2007, 21:24
Well, there is no set time period, so maybe he is from before or after Sicarus' time.

Sicarius was Captain of the 5th when Adrias was Captain of the 3rd.

FalseAngel
03-11-2007, 21:46
Sicarius was Captain of the 5th when Adrias was Captain of the 3rd.

You sure? It has Ardias listed as 3rd at the time of Sicarius being 2nd in the Codex. Or did GW just forget about him dying... Not that that's not beyond them.

Arkley
03-11-2007, 22:00
You sure? It has Ardias listed as 3rd at the time of Sicarius being 2nd in the Codex. Or did GW just forget about him dying... Not that that's not beyond them.

Thats the thing... GW forgot :( (Are you looking at the 3rd Edtion Codex with the dispostion of the Ultramarines. Also under the 4th Edition Codex the description of the Ultramarine banners has Adrais still alive but all other fluff points to him being dead, very much like Idaeus :(.

There is alot of promotions in the Ultramarines at the time...

We had the Joran Retaliation followed right away by Hive Fleet Behemoth. In that space of time we lost Adrias, the whole 1st Co.

This being approx 745-750 M41, Adrias is dead before Behemoth as Fabian was newly promoted.

Mechanicus
03-11-2007, 22:24
Erhh I think you are answering your own question... There is no connection between Firewarrior and Behemoth... the connection is Firewarrior and the Joran Retaliation.

Adrias was Captain till he died in fighting the Tau, Fabian was promoted to Captain before the Battle for Macragge...

The events in Firewarrior happened before the Joran Retaliation. In which Adrias helped that FireWarrior, then the irony was he was killed by the same Aliens he helped in the past.

The Joran Retaliation was aborted, Adrias was dead, Fabian promoted...

So basically they are one in the sameBut we've only got reference to the Joran Retaliation there, which was what I meant to say, which was shortly before the First Tyranid Invasion - nothing about the events of Fire Warrior, which was set on Dolumar IV, referencing the Damocles Crusade as two hundred years previously and commenting on Hive Fleet Kraken.

Arkley
03-11-2007, 22:46
But we've only got reference to the Joran Retaliation there, which was what I meant to say, which was shortly before the First Tyranid Invasion - nothing about the events of Fire Warrior, which was set on Dolumar IV, referencing the Damocles Crusade as two hundred years previously and commenting on Hive Fleet Kraken.

Ok the events of Firewarrior featured Captain Adrias of the 3rd Co... (What year did this even take place?).

The Joran Retaliation took place around 740 M41
Behemoth about 745 M41

If Firewarrior took place after 740-744 it is pretty clear GW have left a nice fluff hole :)... But do we even know when it took place?

EDIT - Dolumar IV – 998.M41 (Space Marines, Chaos Space Marines) Nice work GW the hole is there... But its based on a computer game... Adrias is dead :)


The current Captain of the 3rd is Fabian and he has been the Captain for 245 years since the approx death of Adrias.

FalseAngel
03-11-2007, 23:20
Thats the thing... GW forgot :( (Are you looking at the 3rd Edtion Codex with the dispostion of the Ultramarines. Also under the 4th Edition Codex the description of the Ultramarine banners has Adrais still alive but all other fluff points to him being dead, very much like Idaeus :(.

There is alot of promotions in the Ultramarines at the time...

We had the Joran Retaliation followed right away by Hive Fleet Behemoth. In that space of time we lost Adrias, the whole 1st Co.

This being approx 745-750 M41, Adrias is dead before Behemoth as Fabian was newly promoted.

-Sigh- Figures.... thanks for clearing that up. This is part of the reason I started going with Privateer Press, I'm really sick of GW not keeping track of things, there's no excuse, I'm sorry.

But that, coupled with the fairly recent change for Sicarius's position, I think just means these models are "from another time period LOL" :rolleyes:

That excuse gets annoying as hell after a while.

FalseAngel
03-11-2007, 23:23
I don't mean to offend anyone, but I'm closing the thread, the questions I think have been answered. Even though I dislike how it just turned out to be another screw up more or less.