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View Full Version : In light of the HH series: the two 'lost chapters'



leonmallett
03-11-2007, 20:28
I am sorry if this has been raised before, but now that GW are filling in the blanks around the Horus Heresy as it were, in the form of numerous novels, should GW finally 'bite the bullet' and identify the two 'missing' Legions of the original twenty? I ask this, as to not do so whilst clearly delineating the rest of the Horus Heresy seems to be a simple conceit and nothing more. It is strange to apply detail at the level of the novels, and yet try and maintain an air of mystery around these two chapters. Thoughts?


I ask this having just embarked on the first volume - so if my question is answeredin the series, then please forgive me.

Maidel
03-11-2007, 20:31
nothing so far in the first 6 appart from a passing referance to the 11 legion (and I mean in a dream unconfirmed stuff)

Takitron
03-11-2007, 20:33
right, there is nothing at all except one small part in the 2nd book. Even in that scene, its clear that it isnt ment to be real. thats as unspoilery as I can get it.

Mechanicus
03-11-2007, 20:46
Actually, in the Lightning Tower, a short story for Games Day, there was a mention. Talking about twenty plinths on Terra featuring the Primarchs:

The Second and Eleventh plinths had been vacant for a long time. No one ever spoke of those two absent brothers. Their seperate tragedies had seemed like aberrations. Had they, in fact, been warnings that no one had heeded? Make of it as you will.

jb85
03-11-2007, 23:36
The background for the two lost legions should never be filled in, part of the fun is leavng certain aspects shrouded in mystery and leaving our imaginations to fill in the blanks.

Kandarin
03-11-2007, 23:38
They're there for the fans' benefit. As long as they're unidentified, players can say that their custom Space Marine/CSM force is descended from a First Founding legion wthout using one of the canon legions.

Maidel
03-11-2007, 23:58
The background for the two lost legions should never be filled in, part of the fun is leavng certain aspects shrouded in mystery and leaving our imaginations to fill in the blanks.

What you say is true, however I cant for a moment think that the HH books wont touch on them more.

Unless they are going to pull the 'it happened long before the HH' card and then not be forced to talk about them.

sabreu
04-11-2007, 00:15
Actually, if you think about it, that quote from lightning tower makes all hopes of having your DIY chapter descended or actually one of those two legions obsolete.

jb85
04-11-2007, 00:53
I've never read the Lightning Tower story, does anyone have a link/source for it. The quoted bit actually suggests to me that the Emperor had found the two Primarchs and they had been corrupted in some shape or form. Might explain why they were expunged from the records, there had maybe been treachery by some of the Primarchs much earlier than we originally thought and a cover up was organised as it wasn’t public knowledge that Chaos existed.

AbyssRaven
04-11-2007, 02:43
Actually, if you think about it, that quote from lightning tower makes all hopes of having your DIY chapter descended or actually one of those two legions obsolete.

Not really. Just means that they have to be more creative about ho they right their own fluff

TheMartyr451
04-11-2007, 05:32
Besides the little bit in False Gods, there isn't much.


I always liked to think that the Legion of the Damned was one of the missing legions, but GW had to make the fluff say it was the Fire Hawks returned from being lost in the warp.(lame if you ask me, since they are called LEGION...)

I will still think they are a missing legion, because all the fluff states is they MIGHT be the Fire Hawks, atleast from everything I Have read about the Legion of the Damned.

Wazzahamma
04-11-2007, 05:45
For an overview of what The Lightning Tower has to say about the two primarchs, check out: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Primarch

[SD] Bob Plisskin
04-11-2007, 09:00
I dont see why we need two legions that don't 'exist' so you can say hey, my guys are form that legion, with all the foundings and stuff it's pretty easy to make a spin-off chapter and incorporate the traits you want!

My marines are a ultra-secretive chapter based on the exorcists.

Lord Fatwa
04-11-2007, 12:38
Didn't Dan Abnett say in an interview at a recent Games Day that Alan Merritt had given him permission to cover this stuff specifically in Legion, the next book in the series? I'm pretty sure I remember reading that somewhere... So it would seem that the answer will be forthcoming, as much as I'm sure most of us would prefer it not to be...

We should set up a poll or something to see what clever clogs can guess it... ;)

leonmallett
04-11-2007, 15:13
In my mind, keeping the mystery makes sense if they weren't doing an in-depth depiction across numerous novels. Since the books will clearly depict other events of the Heresy, then the idea of maintaining that mystery is a pretty silly device if the chapters were in existannce at the time. The novels aren't written from a perspective of 'known Imperial records', so why bother to maintain the conceit? If you think about the depiction of the Luna Wolves in the first novel, much is clearly defined. To then not apply that same standard to other elements of the larger story, such as the two 'missing' legions then becomes nothing more than a storytelling conceit or device at best.

Does it add to the mythos? I'd say not. Yes it provides two 'futureproof' allowances for two founding Legions, which could be loyalists, heretics, or compromised in some unrelated manner either before or after the Horus Heresy, but otherwise the mystery adds nothing, and losing the mystery could be a real boon for the fluff-hungry fans.

The pestilent 1
04-11-2007, 15:36
Actually as I recall there was a passing reference to all Twenty Primarchs being found, but we'd pretty much guessed that already.

Savant
04-11-2007, 15:44
They're both female chapters. That's why they were written out of history.

Brother Lazarus
04-11-2007, 16:12
Slightly OT, but the Legion of the Damned have, since their introduction in 2nd ed, been considered to "possibly" be the lost Fire Hawks chapter.

LordXaras
04-11-2007, 19:29
Slightly OT, but the Legion of the Damned have, since their introduction in 2nd ed, been considered to "possibly" be the lost Fire Hawks chapter.
Very off-topic, I'd say, since the Fire Hawks were not one of the Two Legions.

The pestilent 1
04-11-2007, 19:50
They're both female chapters. That's why they were written out of history.

They are specifically referred to as Brothers in the passage I mentioned, by the Lion.

So no, no silly Proto SOB nonsense.

Maidel
04-11-2007, 19:53
They are specifically referred to as Brothers in the passage I mentioned, by the Lion.

So no, no silly Proto SOB nonsense.

Now now - we have to be very careful in this day and age of political correctness.

Obviously in this case BROTHER means 'sibling' as otherwise it would be sexist -and therefore they could be female :D:D:D

MadDoc
04-11-2007, 20:51
Now now - we have to be very careful in this day and age of political correctness.

Obviously in this case BROTHER means 'sibling' as otherwise it would be sexist -and therefore they could be female :D:D:D

A couple of points -
One: Don't be facetious, its neither clever nor necessary in this instance.
Two: Brother is used as a declarative masculine Pronoun in the referenced text and so he (Rogal Dorn in The Lightning Tower, which I have sitting right here next to me) is clearly referring to males, two of his male siblings or brothers to be exact.

N.B. Brother does indeed mean sibling, specifically (and exclusively) a male sibling.

Now if anybody wants to jump down my throat and bemoan my pedantry, go right ahead, it won't alter the fact that its all true. :p

Maidel
04-11-2007, 21:28
A couple of points -
One: Don't be facetious, its neither clever nor necessary in this instance.

Jeeze - grow a sense of humour

MrBigMr
04-11-2007, 21:31
The background for the two lost legions should never be filled in, part of the fun is leavng certain aspects shrouded in mystery and leaving our imaginations to fill in the blanks.
That's what God did, and look what happened to that great idea. I just love it when GW makes it ok for us to do all sorts of stuff and use the blank spots in the fluff to cover it. Then all the fluff nutsies are all like "there's no fluff for that" and "that's not possible" and "that's a stupid idea with no imagination."


They are specifically referred to as Brothers in the passage I mentioned, by the Lion.

So no, no silly Proto SOB nonsense.
Like I said above...
Thanks GW for pimpin' my fluff.


(lame if you ask me, since they are called LEGION...)
I believe there are other chapters out there as well, that are named legion. And if that's lame, what about the Thousand Sons. There sure as hell was more than a thousand of them.

MadDoc
05-11-2007, 01:44
Jeeze - grow a sense of humour

I have one, but that was neither funny nor constructive.

Scragglefoot
05-11-2007, 10:59
What if one of the primarchs landed on a craftworld, daemon world, necron crypt world, ork world, on a planet in the path of a tyranid fleet or is being protected by the tau or victemised by the dark eldar.

i personaly find it wierd that (as far as i know) all the primarachs were found on human planets.

maybe thats the twist one of the missing was found on a ork planet where he had learnt the ways of orks and become the mightist warlord. then the emp arived the primarch (lets call him smasha) saw the power of the emp and went with him leavin his tribe behind him but when he was given a legion he taught them the ork ways using ork tatics but missed his original tribe. smasha leaves the emp heads back to his tribe where he startsa a massive waaaagh alot of his legion following him and join his tribe they carve a bloody path through countless solar systems till they are ground to a hault by a massive space marine force. alot of the loyal legions take massive losses (hence thousand sons being such a small legion) smasha is distroyed along with almost all his legion the emp deletes them from record as it would cause panic if it was known a primarch was raised by orks.

the story is intergangable with most aliens (not nids or necrons thou)

what do people think?

Scragglefoot

sabreu
05-11-2007, 11:23
One of the Primarchs a...a...Digga!? That idea is good for a quick laugh!

Personally, I wish they hadn't retconned the links 40k had with Fantasy. I think Sigmar could have made a great Primarch.

THE CHIEF
05-11-2007, 11:49
One of the Primarchs a...a...Digga!? That idea is good for a quick laugh!

Personally, I wish they hadn't retconned the links 40k had with Fantasy. I think Sigmar could have made a great Primarch.

I agree to a point, Sigmar would have made a great Primarch - but the issue here is that there are two legions that for one reason or another have been deleted from record - this means that at one point there were two Primarchs at their helm and they were out taking part in the Great Crusade. If Sigmar was a Primarch, he would never have been found by the Emperor. (or would he...? Fantasy knowledge is sketchy with THE CHIEF!)

It doesn't make much sense to me that there are 20 plinths with 18 statues of the Primarchs on them - if even the traitor Primarchs are still standing there, what the hell did the other two do that was so bad?! (In my opinion the only reason for removing them is as a punishment for doing something bad, so presumably they did something worse than devoting themselves to Chaos (!) :eek:)

Would be cool to have a bit more info from the HH novels IMO, even if it's just snippets of info and passing references that deepen/expand upon the mystery...

Sideros Peltarion
05-11-2007, 12:07
I agree to a point, Sigmar would have made a great Primarch - but the issue here is that there are two legions that for one reason or another have been deleted from record - this means that at one point there were two Primarchs at their helm and they were out taking part in the Great Crusade. If Sigmar was a Primarch, he would never have been found by the Emperor. (or would he...? Fantasy knowledge is sketchy with THE CHIEF!)

It doesn't make much sense to me that there are 20 plinths with 18 statues of the Primarchs on them - if even the traitor Primarchs are still standing there, what the hell did the other two do that was so bad?! (In my opinion the only reason for removing them is as a punishment for doing something bad, so presumably they did something worse than devoting themselves to Chaos (!) :eek:)

Would be cool to have a bit more info from the HH novels IMO, even if it's just snippets of info and passing references that deepen/expand upon the mystery...

Actually Sigmar could have been found by the Emperor as after some point in his reign he left the Empire and never came back. It might be that he could have gone to find his father who had arrived somewhere in the Warhammer World. Wouldn't have been the only one to leave to go and find him would he? Didn't Ferrus Mannus do the same, or was that another one? The only difference there being that Sigmar didn't return.

Scragglefoot
05-11-2007, 12:31
[QUOTE=THE CHIEF;2064380] It doesn't make much sense to me that there are 20 plinths with 18 statues of the Primarchs on them - if even the traitor Primarchs are still standing there, what the hell did the other two do that was so bad?! (In my opinion the only reason for removing them is as a punishment for doing something bad, so presumably they did something worse than devoting themselves to Chaos (!) :eek:) QUOTE]


that is the million dollor question what is worse then turning against your brothers and slaying them?

thats why i think it could be an alien threat letting the enemy know your secrets

or it could be as it says "too different incidents" (words to that effect anywho) they cant both have been deleted at the same time maybe they did turn to chaos at different times.

the reason the traitor legions wern't deleted was the only person who could delete a primarch was unable to talk after his fight with Horus and he had more importent things to talk about in the period he could talk (like converting the throne to keep him alive)

Scragglefoot

Tarsus
05-11-2007, 15:16
Maybe the plinths were built before the primarchs were found so no statue was ever placed there to be taken down.

Mechanicus
05-11-2007, 15:34
I refer you all to here (http://forum.blpublishing.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=177&PN=1) for a compilation of available information about the missing Legions, their Primarchs, and an all round investigation into the Great Crusade Era in a search for possibilities. Worth reading even if it seems a bit long for you; even a skim read gives a lot of information.

As to why the Traitor Legions aren't deleted - look at the Index Astartes: Renegades. Traitor Chapters that are destroyed are erased from the archives, but surviving ones aren't. Mainly because people still need to know about them if they encounter them. ;)

burning crome
05-11-2007, 15:53
I'm sure GW will pull them out of the hat when they run off of ideas. I sort of like the idea that they where sent out side to milky way or are in waiting for the day of judgement (think king arthur) But then I think that the emperor really die and his sprit became maal the fifth chaos god so I wouldn’t take me to seriously.

LordXaras
05-11-2007, 16:08
Curse you, Mechanicus! I was going to post that link!

It is an awesome resource.

Tyron
05-11-2007, 16:54
Or maybe their abilities were far greater then the other Primarchs the Emperor had to hide them to prevent jealousy among them.

Using them for when the time is right...right after he fought Horus.

Lavadude360
05-11-2007, 17:36
Can't remember who said this but here's to them;

"In GW headquarters theres a box on the wall which says smash in case of imminent bankrupt-cy. Inside are the 2 missing legions and molds for pre-heresy marines."

It's true you know.

Perhaps the other 2 primarchs were sent outside the galaxy to conquer in the name of the emeroro and were never seen again.

fracas
05-11-2007, 18:05
i also would like confirmation about this "the Lightning Tower"

Mechanicus
05-11-2007, 18:38
Well, it was on sale here (http://www.blacklibrary.com/product.asp?prod=60049981013&type=Book), but is now sold out. There are only 1500 copies to be distributed, and about a thousand of those are now gone (UK GD and online store), but 500 are to be sold at the US Games Days, IIRC.

starlight
19-06-2008, 20:51
As to why the Traitor Legions aren't deleted - look at the Index Astartes: Renegades. Traitor Chapters that are destroyed are erased from the archives, but surviving ones aren't. Mainly because people still need to know about them if they encounter them. ;)

Been saying this for years...literally *years*, yet it always seems to get glossed over. :( The information is littered throughout GW's books for well over the last ten years that I know of...

The *missing* Legions didn't have to do anything *worse* than the Traitor Legions, they just had to have been eradicated before the Heresy...

Sorry if the simple answer is the most likely, but there it is...when the Traitor Legions are eradicated, they will be erased from record and eventually memory.

chaos0xomega
19-06-2008, 21:48
Can't remember who said this but here's to them;

"In GW headquarters theres a box on the wall which says smash in case of imminent bankrupt-cy. Inside are the 2 missing legions and molds for pre-heresy marines."

It's true you know.

Perhaps the other 2 primarchs were sent outside the galaxy to conquer in the name of the emeroro and were never seen again.

I would like to believe you... so very much...

I think its silly if the HH series DOESN'T account for the two legions. How can you go about ignoring such a major part of the background, especially considering that most fluff sources suggest that these two legions did indeed take part.

Also, most/all the background about the HH I have read says that Horus took "fully half the legions and led them in rebellion against the emperor" (I'm paraphrasing slightly, but not the "fully half the legions" part) while "the other half joined the emperor" (again slightly paraphrased). This suggests one of two things: One legion joined the Emperor and the other Horus OR both legions were destroyed/missing/what-have-you before the Heresy took part, otherwise Horus would not have been able to take "fully half the legions" under his control (if the emperor had the other half).

Wazzahamma
19-06-2008, 23:38
Well, the Lightning Tower tells us that the missing legions are already out of commission and "not talked about" by the time of the Heresy, so there is no reason for the HH series to address their fate directly, though I would expect more hints along the way.

And I agree with Starlight. Whatever happened to legions II and XI, the reason they are fully deleted is because they have been effectively and utterly removed from the playing field.

DoomedFuture
19-06-2008, 23:48
I heard somewhere long ago that:

The two primarchs were killed during thr great crusade, and the surviving marines from the shattered legions were integrated into the Sons of Horus, as he was the warmaster, and could do what he wanted with those marines.

This explains why the Black Legion has no qualms about accepting members of other legions into the fold, they've done it before.

Of course, I don't like this, because I prefer the missing legions a total mystery.

Brother Siccarius
20-06-2008, 00:02
I would like to believe you... so very much...

I think its silly if the HH series DOESN'T account for the two legions. How can you go about ignoring such a major part of the background, especially considering that most fluff sources suggest that these two legions did indeed take part.

Also, most/all the background about the HH I have read says that Horus took "fully half the legions and led them in rebellion against the emperor" (I'm paraphrasing slightly, but not the "fully half the legions" part) while "the other half joined the emperor" (again slightly paraphrased). This suggests one of two things: One legion joined the Emperor and the other Horus OR both legions were destroyed/missing/what-have-you before the Heresy took part, otherwise Horus would not have been able to take "fully half the legions" under his control (if the emperor had the other half).

Look, the two missing legions really aren't that big in the fluff. From Horus's brief thoughts during his vision in the emperor's laboratory in the HH series, they were more than likely lost at some point, for some reason, before the heresy. Especially as they weren't mentioned by any of the other Primarchs in the books or during war councils.

They aren't that big of an impact because they apparently didn't accomplish much to get their names in the records, annals, or histories.

chaos0xomega
20-06-2008, 00:03
I'd prefer to think that the two lost legions were more than just run-of-the-mill traitors that were utterly destroyed. Especially considering that the lightning tower quote paints a picture that their actions went above and beyond those of the other traitor legions.


They aren't that big of an impact because they apparently didn't accomplish much to get their names in the records, annals, or histories.

Lightning Tower suggests that they did more than enough to get into the records, in fact so much more that it was deemed more important that noone ever learn of their history.

Hellebore
20-06-2008, 03:32
I agree with Leon Mallett. The 2nd and the 11th legions are part of the story surrounding the horus heresy. Leaving them out serves no purpose except to add a sense of forced mystery to events being described in great detail.

It would be like describing the attack of the tyranids on Ichar IV and then not saying which space marine chapter(s) were involved (the ultramarines mainly). Or Macharius' crusade and not revealing his generals or armies.

You can't just pick and choose. If you are going to describe something, you can't just leave large holes in it. Well, you CAN but it just looks tacky and forced.

Hellebore

starlight
20-06-2008, 03:54
I disagree. The two missing/lost Legions were well gone by the time of the Heresy (as confirmed recently). In the massive upheavals going on during the Heresy, it is not out of the realm of possibility that something which is already well into history would escape all but passing mention. Remember, there is no mystery to the Primarchs, they *know* what happened. The mystery (and therefore the attraction) only exists to us, to them it is simply another piece of knowledge amongst all the things they know leading up to their present day. They don't see the last 10,000 years, as they haven't happened yet.


Always remember to look at a story from the perspective of your characters, not your own...:)

chaos0xomega
20-06-2008, 04:17
Thats all fine and dandy, but the Primarchs were BROTHERS (in the most literal sense of the term). You would think that they would mention, at least in passing, the going-ons of the other brothers. I mean, if your bro was shot and killed in Iraq, wouldn't you at least go "Oh damn, that sucks for Jeff, he was a good kid?"

But I guess then GW characters are rather unemotional and don't really give a damn about anything thats happening around them, so its perfectly reasonable that from the characters perspective they'd just ignore that :rolleyes:

starlight
20-06-2008, 04:24
Depending on how long in the past for them, perhaps not. Maybe the passing references in the BL books are passing because 50+ years have passed and all that is left is a twinge of regret, rather than raw grief...?

Hellebore
20-06-2008, 04:45
It wasn't very long in the past. The Crusade only went for 200 years. Some of the primarchs were around for that long, others not so much. They weren't all found at once. I believe Alpharius was found last. How much time was left in the crusade when he was found? 40 years, 20? The recollections of Horus suggest that YEARS went by between primarch discoveries.

The Marines in the HH series liked to talk about their brothers from different legions. They fought side by side. That Luna Wolf whatshisname that was an original Terran had been with the legion for the entire campaign. He would have most likely at least met marines from one of the two missing legions.

They talked about the tragedy of the planet Murder a lot, so there is no reason that those who were present with the 2nd and 11th wouldn't recall the same things.

Unless they kept both legions completely seperate from the rest of the crusade there would be hundreds of marines with knowledge of their loss.

Losing a primarch is a pretty massive thing. They lost TWO before the heresy ever began. Sanguinius wept for the loss of a few hundred blood angels. What would be the reaction to the loss of tens of thousands and two primarchs?

It's actually MORE important to those during the Heresy era than it is to those in the 41st millennium because it was so recent.

I would expect a day every year taken as morning for the loss of brothers. I mean, that's TEN percent of the fighting strength of the space marine legions gone.

No one forgets something like that, especially if it's within living memory (like it would be for the primarchs, emperor and many marines).

Hellebore

starlight
20-06-2008, 04:50
The point is that they are purported to have done something so terrible (at least to date) that every record of their existence has been erased, and that everyone is *trying* to forget them (in modern militaries, it would be similar to not speaking of those who have brought shame upon the regiment).

Chem-Dog
20-06-2008, 05:27
For an overview of what The Lightning Tower has to say about the two primarchs, check out: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Primarch


...the White Consuls Chapter is referenced as having a Primarch...

By Dan Abnett who was, largely ignorant of the intricasies of Marine Organisation and History at the time, I think even he's said that. Personally I'd like to think "Primarch" is an honorific title. But this is all a little OT.


Thats all fine and dandy, but the Primarchs were BROTHERS (in the most literal sense of the term). You would think that they would mention, at least in passing, the going-ons of the other brothers. I mean, if your bro was shot and killed in Iraq, wouldn't you at least go "Oh damn, that sucks for Jeff, he was a good kid?"

But if your Brother had, for instance, Tried to kill a large number of your friends and family OR turned their back on what you view as yours (and theirs) sacred appointed task, you might not be so inclined to speak of them.

As a parallel, I can bet you that Edward VIII and Charles Edward, Duke of Saxe-Coburg and Gotha are two names that are seldom heard in the royal estates of England, despite the fact they've been dead for over 30 years.

Azulthar
20-06-2008, 06:48
I really wouldn't be surprised if the series hardly covered the lost chapters. There's a good chance it isn't directly relevant to the Heresy, though perhaps Horus will see them as examples of the Emperor's tyranny (or something).

But I wouldn't get my hopes up.

Jedi152
20-06-2008, 07:23
For the umpteenth time there are no two 'lost chapters'. There were originally left blank to encourage players to invent their own.

GW are pretty open and honest about their background. There are no secrets, no clues for you to follow to work it out. This isn't the Da Vinci Code.

Carlos
20-06-2008, 07:39
For what its worth, my opponent uses his vast chaos army as one of the lost legions.

The story goes that whilst expanding the southern borders of the imperium some 20 years into the great crusade Janos Arbatel, Primarch of the 'Bleeding Hearts' Legion was led to a small, uninhabited moon by a being known only as 'Mesiyut'. Here he was taken to a single, solitary pool of mercury and inside he saw what was to pass: He saw himself standing over the withered corpse of the emperor, with vast golden machineries surrounding it and masses upon masses of lost souls all looking to him for guidance. Convinced it was some sort of trick Janos tried to escape but a hand called out to him and pulled him in.
When his legion found him all traces of Mesiyut and the pool were gone. Arbatel then mustered his legion, voyaged south to the extreme borders of the galaxy and after destroying all civilian forces who were with them was never seen again. The emperor sent El'Johnson to force Arbatel to report his actions but no trace of him was ever found. The Emperor swore Johnson to secrecy and erased all records of the Bleeding Hearts, fearful that news of a missing/traitorous primarch would alter the stability of his imperium.......

..............Until now. Long thought lost in the warp, somehow the Bleeding Hearts legion has emerged in the present day and invaded the isolated imperial world of Cuprium. Unknown to the imperium, Cuprium is also known as Khalethwe in the eldar tongue and within its surface lies a warp weapon created by the eldar in times long passed to fight the Ctan. Arbatel, and his newly christened 'Arbatel's Lost' legion have been fighting over the world with the eldar craftworld Yarlenesh for over 15 years.

The imperium would have sent a large response but Arbatel is a powerful individual, and not only did he manage to conjure warp storms to block most warp travel and also planted dreams in the head of Abaddon, forcing him to be his unwitting pawn and attack Cadia. This created a large diversion so Arbatel can rule Cuprium, detonate the warp weapon and create a new eye of terror in the south of the galaxy. With 2 points to strike from, chaos would win and the imperium would fall.

Wazzahamma
20-06-2008, 07:45
From the LT, it would appear that Dorn's feelings towards his two missing siblings are a mixture of regret, mystery and shame. It seems that whether or not they rebelled or were destroyed or failed or lost in some way a certain level of distaste is involved in even mentioning them.

And Jedi152, from information over at the BL website, it seems that Abnett and co have decided what happened to the two missing legions. Just that they'll never tell us in full. The best we'll ever get are crumbs here and there to whet our appetites for full meals that they'll never feed us.

ctsteel
20-06-2008, 10:26
From the different references to the two missing legions and their primarchs, I'm of the mind that the primarchs never made it to adulthood and died either just before or just after they were dispersed through the warp.

Horus's vision in the HH novels refers to the tragedy of the 11th primarch and the untapped glories that never eventuated. Dorn's references to his missing brothers in the Lightning Tower, and the two empty plinths with no statue go to supporting the idea that they just never existed, rather than being expunged from the records. The words and feelings used generate a sense of loss rather than abandonment.

The two missing primarchs didn't do something terribly evil and get struck from the records, they were just never found, or tragically died either as a result of being sent into the warp (if the incubation tank failed), or something on their journey/destination managed to kill them while young.

As for why legions were never created from their geneseed, either the geneseed was tragically destroyed or not stored at the time of the theft of the primarchs (since this was all the emperor would have had to work with after the theft), or perhaps these two primarchs were found to be genetically flawed and their geneseed was unstable for use. This would explain the tragedy that was honoured by the empty plinths, and the knowledge that all the other primarchs seem to have had that their missing brothers were lost and never to fulfill their promise.

chaos0xomega
20-06-2008, 10:49
Re: In light of the HH series: the two 'lost chapters'
From the different references to the two missing legions and their primarchs, I'm of the mind that the primarchs never made it to adulthood and died either just before or just after they were dispersed through the warp.

Horus's vision in the HH novels refers to the tragedy of the 11th primarch and the untapped glories that never eventuated. Dorn's references to his missing brothers in the Lightning Tower, and the two empty plinths with no statue go to supporting the idea that they just never existed, rather than being expunged from the records. The words and feelings used generate a sense of loss rather than abandonment.

The two missing primarchs didn't do something terribly evil and get struck from the records, they were just never found, or tragically died either as a result of being sent into the warp (if the incubation tank failed), or something on their journey/destination managed to kill them while young.


From the lightning tower:


The Second and Eleventh plinths had been vacant for a long time. No one ever spoke of those two absent brothers. Their seperate tragedies had seemed like aberrations. Had they, in fact, been warnings that no one had heeded?

Clearly the thought that what happened to them was a tragedy and an "abberation," and that the speaker (presumably Dorn) thought they may have been warnings suggest otherwise.

Also, the story suggests (in the quote above) that there were once statues on those plinths that had been removed (hence "vacant for a long time"
).

ctsteel
20-06-2008, 11:00
"Vacant" here could also mean that they had never been populated in the first place, and thus were vacant from the start. The tragedy/aberration could be in reference to a genetic abnormality that rendered the geneseed unusable or made the implanted subjects go mad or such. It's just my conjecture of course but I feel it fits well with the existing references and explains the missing two legions.

edit: The other line of thought that comes to mind from re-reading that passage from the Lightning Tower, is that the two primarchs may have been killed during the crusade when the worlds they lived on refused to submit to the Imperial fleets. Perhaps the tragedy/aberration here that serves as a warning, is that the primarchs refused to acknowledge their father and openly fought against him, or perhaps he wasn't present and they simply fought on until they were killed. From what I've read so far of other primarchs' discovery in the HH books, they seem to have been sensed by the Emperor who made special effort to visit them. Perhaps while he was occupied elsewhere one of the other fleets made war upon the world, and the unknown primarch just kept fighting until he was killed by sheer numbers, or orbital bombardment or such. And the truth wasn't known until it was too late.

However this would imply that the marine legions may have been still viable to be created, so doesn't sit with the fact they don't seem to have ever existed. I can't imagine them being absorbed into another legion, since they would have been roughly equal in size to any of the others (in theory) and their geneseeds would have been from different sources with different traits.

Wazzahamma
20-06-2008, 11:13
You wouldn't use the phrase "vacant for a long time", instead it would be "never filled" or something to that effect.

And Sigismund also suggests removing the traitor primarch statues in kind, suggesting that there had been a removal of II and XI's statues. Which also suggests that they were once in place.

He also muses how all primarchs participated in the Crusade and all believed in its worth at one point in time.

I think you're halfway there though. Combining this evidence with False Gods points to XI's fate being sealed early on in the crusade, perhaps before he'd ever really achieved much.

vlad78
20-06-2008, 11:37
After reading all the previous HH novels, I can think of only one explanation, the missing primarchs fell to chaos even before the Emperor had enough time to reach them or just after. This or they might have shown some great genetic flaw.

Therefore, he had to destroy them utterly and secretly.

The Imperium, at the time of the great crusade, believed in rationality , knowledge and rejected any idea of magical and superstitious power. The Emperor did his best to prevent mankind from learning the truth of the Warp and the ruinous powers.

Finding mutated and corrupted primarchs wasn't an option because it was a proof of the power of the warp and also of the imperfection of the Emperor's work.

That is perhaps why The Emperor had to dismantle the legions made from the missing primarchs genetic material, if the primarchs showed to be imperfect so would their legions.

The only thing that I can hardly make to fall in place, is that, if some primarchs showed to be utter failure or worse before the Heresy, why was it so difficult for the Emperor and the Primarchs having witnessed what happened to be convinced of Horus Treachery? (say Dorn)

vlad

chaos0xomega
20-06-2008, 12:37
Also, if they did become traitors or whatever, when Horus rebelled, wouldn't at least one of the Primarchs or the Emperor have said something along the lines of "Oh no, not like x" where x is the name of lost primarch that rebelled?

Azulthar
20-06-2008, 13:05
I'm going with the the theory that they were already too heavily mutated by the time they were found. I very much doubt there was a mini-Heresy before the Horus one, the signs just aren't there.

pookie
20-06-2008, 14:01
I would expect a day every year taken as morning for the loss of brothers. I mean, that's TEN percent of the fighting strength of the space marine legions gone.


Hellebore


ah, not so ( although it could be ), remeber the Emperors Children were only 300 strong when reunited with Fulgrim.

its possible that the 2 legions were very small and if so, its possible they along with there Primachs could have been annhilated early in the great crusade.

leadlair
21-06-2008, 21:54
Finding mutated and corrupted primarchs wasn't an option because it was a proof of the power of the warp and also of the imperfection of the Emperor's work.

vlad

If that was the case why didn't the emperor destroy Sanguinus? He is pretty obviously mutated. And Magnus supposedly only has one eye..... though that has been debated.

Lavadude360
22-06-2008, 15:09
What if they were scattered beyond this galaxy?

The Imperium is only in the Milky Way so they would still be undiscovered right?

mockier
23-06-2008, 12:21
If that was the case why didn't the emperor destroy Sanguinus? He is pretty obviously mutated. And Magnus supposedly only has one eye..... though that has been debated.

He really only has one eye. See the only model ever made. Epic.

There is another option for why records were deleted. Rather than because they were currupted/mutated it could indicate that they were deliberatly hidden.
Eg for use as a trump card incase Horus Won. Ie they were too far out to have been of help, records deleted to hide their movements/location.

Or they met with some accident, thrust into the future, sucked into another galaxy.

In any case it would be good to know what really happened, maybe when earth is threatened again.

pookie
23-06-2008, 12:42
He really only has one eye. See the only model ever made. Epic.



which shouldnt be taken as Canon, considering that model was of the Daemon Primach - he was also supposed to have copper skin was he not and that Epic mini if i remeber is Blue? ( as a side note - he does only have one eye, although the debate is wether he was Cyclopian or wether he had a normal eye and one socket blanked/missing)

Wazzahamma
23-06-2008, 13:59
He really only has one eye. See the only model ever made. Epic.

Then again, according to False Gods, he had two eyes but one is missing...

Juicebox
23-06-2008, 14:16
I don't really have anything to back this up, but I think it would be awesome if the Eldar, probably Ulthuan, snatched up one of the Primarchs. They could be saving him for a rainy day, like giving him back to the monkeigh when it looks like they might not make it, or they could have murdered him way back when to make sure that he wouldn't fall to chaos (as some farseer predicted he would; this would especially be cool if they did it because to because they forecast that another traitor primarch would have been enough for Horus during the Heresy to actually succeed).

All that said, I think the coolest possibility would be that an Eldar craftworld with a damaged infinity circuit snatched him up and plugged him in for the power needed to keep the thing running. Sure they risked the destruction of the entirety of humanity (ie. trillions of folks) by denying the Emperor more loyalists during the Heresy but, you have to understand, several thousand Eldar could have been lost to Slaneesh. That would be awesome.

Ghost Of Caliban
24-06-2008, 05:11
The background for the two lost legions should never be filled in, part of the fun is leavng certain aspects shrouded in mystery and leaving our imaginations to fill in the blanks.

meh no way. i like to know.
the options are just to varied. maybe they fought each other, maybe opne dissapeared in search of the other. as i've said by the time the heresy happened there is no way they are still around as horus would not have discounted them form his plans loyal OR traitor.

Vaz84
24-06-2008, 05:22
A lot of debating certainly can circle around these two legions, gone traitor, horrible mutations, lost in the warp, etc. Maybe the emperor had tried something different with those two legions genetics and now they are locked deep in the core of Terra as abominations. Maybe they were the only two marine legions to be crushed by the foes of the Imperium.

Drasanil
24-06-2008, 05:56
The answer is rather obvious they fell to Snuggles the Chaos God of Wub and Q-ttzyness, and as such they were not fit for G..W..uh...the Emperor's vision of the Imperium.

The Warmaster
24-06-2008, 08:37
My two cents (despite the fact that my local currency makes that difficult to manage)...

One possible approach to this could be as simple as the fact that, as evidenced by the Imperium's own transition in the aftermath of the Heresy, policies change. The two legions may very well have rebelled just like those during the Horus Heresy, but on a smaller scale. After all, if they had rebelled in an isolated region of space, in the presence of one or more other legions, they could have been wiped out without knowledge spreading, especially if during a campaign in a non-human system. As this was an isolated event, the travesty in question could be easily covered up, and never spoken of again.

However, the Horus Heresy happened on so great a scale that the common Imperial citizen would have learned of it, and quite possibly experienced it (they're still afraid of Marines on Terra, after all). Even though, by the 41st Millennium, knowledge of it amongst Imperial civilians has degraded to little more than wild folklore at best, there was a time when that was not the case.

Plus, with the Horus Heresy, the enemy survived, unlike the two missing Legions (with this being said in the context of my idea being factual - we don't know if they're still out there, do we?), and even the Imperium, with the way it was after the Emperor's ascension, isn't stupid enough to eliminate all records of an enemy that still exists, and is still a threat (the Soul Drinkers could complicate that, but the canonical nature of Ben Counter's novels is disputable at best, considering that BL authors have made mistakes in the past).

There, that's my two cents spent. Excelsior!

- N.