View Full Version : Reincarnating the Emperor, application to my Fluff.

04-11-2007, 05:20
Sorry for the crappy title - it's hard to fit the whole concept up there.

So once again its time for a round of "Oh dear Emperor, he's at it again!"

Also known as "The squirrel had an idea... *gulp*".

This however is unlike so many of my "question" threads - because rather I'm posing something a bit... different.

A warning: This thread will involve some discussion of my female Marines - HOWEVER; I had an idea that may, rather bizarrely, make them more plausible.

Thus I ask two things of people in this thread:

1) Try to keep an open mind. I'm trying to satisfy my own army creation desire *while* respecting fluff - a difficult matter. I think I may have succeeded; but I'll let everyone else be the judge of that.

2) However, while I am asking for opinions, I would request that people refrain from just being vitriolic and nasty. Basically, if you still think the idea is impossible/silly, and can't be bothered to be civil about it - go elsewhere. I'm not saying "Agree with me or be silent!" - That would be a fairly useless thread wouldn't it? Rather I'm just looking for opinions on the way I'm going about this, as I am not yet wholly satisfied with it myself. I don't want abuse; I want constructive and well thought out opinions.

Ok, now that that boring crap is out of the way <,< on to the fun stuff!

Here is my thought:

First and foremost - there is an Inquisitorial philosophy; that of the Thorians, that believes the Emperor may in fact be granted a new body and re-incarnated.

The idea itself does not rely on these Inquisitors - as it has nothing to do with the Inquisition. Rather - it has to do with the idea of the Emperor being reincarnated.

The crux of this idea, is that 4 millenia ago (M37 if anyone wants to keep track) a powerful psyker, of Alpha+ level rose to power on a world outside the Imperium. The world on which this individual was born would be located north of the Tau Empire, separated by it from Ultramar and its surrounding regions.

This individual has visions - like most psykers; however this person's visions center around a man that they have never known. The Emperor of Mankind. They do not know who this individual is or why they are seeing him, but for a decade they find themselves rapt on a regular basis by memories and thoughts of this incredibly powerful being.

The idea here - is that this individual (I haven't decided *anything* about them) - would, after a long enough exposure to this, come to not only know who the Emperor was, but also begin to believe that they are the Emperor, reincarnated. Essentially, they psychically acquire His memories.

The question of if they actually ARE the Emperor Reincarnate isn't really important, however. This individual uses their knowledge and abilities to ascend to the highest heights of their society, learning the secrets of technology and - starting a Great Crusade of their own on the Eastern Fringe.

They don't get far however - warp storms encircle the area much as they did during the Age of Strife; so while they are able to conquer nearby worlds in their own system, they cannot leave so soon.

This individual then, believing themselves the reincarnation of the Emperor, finds time to experiment with things, and decides to attempt to correct the flaws inherent in the original Primarch project. This time, there will be only 2 Primarchs, and neither will be of the epic level of power of the original 20. Further, the Legions put under their command will be relatively small. While this individual has no understanding of the Codex Astartes (as that came after the Heresy), they do have the understanding that it was a mistake to entrust such forces to the Primarchs in the first place.

To further improve the level of control over his experiments - the ?Emperor? (The best way I can come up with of saying it) implants specific memories into each of the Primarchs.

Each believes themselves to have been one of the Lost Legions - this Emperor Reincarnate knows the truth of those legions - but does not tell these two new pseudo-Primarchs. Instead, the ?Emperor? crafts false memories of 10,000 years of time separated from the ?Emperor?. Each is taught that they have actually ruled a sector of space for nearly 10,000 years, since the Horus Heresy, and that they were given explicit instructions to wait for the ?Emperor? to come find them once more.

All of these memories are untrue; but the two faux Primarchs believe them as they are built into their brains.

The Primarchs in question would of course be the two mentioned in my Index Astartes: Red Guard.

I've not worked the concept out to completion mind you - thats part of why I'm posting it. Its a BIG idea, even if this individual is a false Emperor.

Things I have yet to figure out:

What happens to the ?Emperor? - I've got several possible thoughts on this - one of which is that the ?Emperor? would simply leave after the tyranid infestation of Sera Pernum's legion; and the titanic battle between the two legions. In this scenario, the ?Emperor? would doubt that there was anything they could do to bring humanity under control; and would instead decide that they would be best behind the scenes. In this case they meld back into their original society, carefully manipulating the events in the region, even to the present day. Before they leave, the ?Emperor? would psychically wipe the people of the region (keep in mind, we're talking 2 or 3 planets most likely), and psychically implant false memories akin to those of the Primarchs. Thus the people will obey the Primarch as though that individual had been ruling them all along. The Primarch themselves would be given instructions that the time was not yet right, and that the ?Emperor? would return yet again.

Other ideas are a second "Horus Heresy" like event - not something I'm keen on... it also eliminates part of my reason for getting to fight; as if there was a second "Golden Throne" it'd be rather silly to go all the way to Terra to try to free the ?Emperor? if he's right there next to you. I'm also not keen on it because it'd be... well... boring imho. Even if its a false Emperor, its still... just... bleh.


Sorry that's such a long read, and less-than-perfectly spelled out. This is something bouncing around in my head, not something I've been writing on for awhile; so it doesn't have much polish.

I want thoughts, opinions, etc...

The only thing I ask is that we keep this civil and keep the flaming to a minimum.

I will now duck and cover.


Hive Mind 33
04-11-2007, 06:13
The emperor is still the most powerful psyker. So getting his memories from him and getting though all the wards and other protection, only The emperor Himself and Mangus could do that. Plus you have Tzeentch who already whats going on and can if he wants screw up or destroy everything.

04-11-2007, 06:24
Well, this is based on the view of the Thorian Inquisitors that the Emperor can take command of a new and powerful-enough body to somehow become reincarnated.

So its not so much a matter of "picking his brain" (and thus actively seeking his memories) - but rather having the Emperor's memories find *you*. In this case the question is:

A) The Emperor really is dead, and has found a new body.

or B) This individual has been given the memories through some cosmic force; either the Emperor's own will cast across the cosmos, or possibly a god (funny you mention Tzeentch...) just screwing with someone.

Tzeentchian involvement is actually a definite possibility... course I kinda want to keep the "truth" a little vague. I want it to be a situation of "Are they are or aren't they?" ya know?

Good points all around mind; just trying to clarify my thoughts a bit.

Hive Mind 33
04-11-2007, 06:43
he emperor is still alive, shielding the imperium form the warp. There is nothing
that states he is dead. Also Tzeentch would have to be able to get into the
emperors mind, Remember this is the same man who scared them all off. Also
Tzeentch would notice that it would not hurt the imperium any bit. Getting Near
Terra would be impossible, the only ones who have gotten close after the HH were the crons. And running into the good ol Ultramarines, and whatever other Chapter by them would result in a Beating. and Once word reaches Terra of someone calling himself the Emperor, and making female marines and such would not last long. Assassins, Grey Knights, Sisters of Battle, maybe a few AC. And Crusade forces of other Chapters and Guards. Plus the Tau who want to keep in good relations with the Imperium will fight against them. The only place to escape would be the Malestorm i believe.

04-11-2007, 06:50
Nothing has ever said the Emperor is necessarily 'alive' either <^.~> Remember, he's sometimes referred to as the Corpse-God or Carrion-Lord of humanity.

As for Tzeentch - Tzeentch plots for plotting's sake remember? Tzeentch is not the Thousand Sons; nor does he necessarily care about the Imperium. Tzeentch is Hope, Change, Mutation, and Magic - Tzeentch is as much a concept as a thing. So its not a matter of Tzeentch breaking into the Emperor's Sanctum and taking his mind - but rather simply compiling all the knowledge Tzeentch has of the Emperor's history, and transferring it to some other mortal "Just because". Remember too, that Tzeentch often has multiple plans going at once, sometimes contradictory plans!

As you said - Tzeentch sees everything, or at least, most everything.

You're correct on the other part though mind you. The story here is more about building up to the Crusade - the Crusade itself is meant for 2 reasons:

1) It explains why these people are out fighting in the galaxy at large (Ie: Why the heck I'm using them in games of 40k)

2) Its a sort of hopeless quest. Its a nigh-impossible goal, yet one that seems just.

That said - its *possible* that someone calling themselves the Emperor could; if the properly manifest the correct attributes - claim their place on Terra. But doing so... I agree, would be nigh unto impossible. But like I said - this "Maybe Emperor" is more backstory element.

<@-@> Good posts though, it helps to have obstacles to contend with, it makes things more believable the more I have to think about it. Thanks HM33.

Hive Mind 33
04-11-2007, 06:58
but Corpse-God or Carrion-Lord of humanity is not used by the imperium itself. Mostly Chaos Marines/other enemies using it to dishearten the loyalists.

04-11-2007, 07:01
I could swear I heard Imperials use Corpse-God at least once <@.@>; I may have to look that up.

That said - the Emperor's health status has been a debate item for awhile honestly >.< Most people assume he's alive (I actually do myself <,<) but this is as much a thought exercise as anything else; going from the train of thought of Thorian Inquisitors.

If you're curious about them btw, check out the Inquisitor rulebook on the Specialist Games forum; very cool fluff in that thing.

(Damn do I love the Inquisition)

04-11-2007, 10:21
The Emperor is alive. He maintains the astronomicon, and it has not gone dark. Additionally, the Emperor's psychic power maintains the seals to the webway beneath the golden throne, which hasn't broken open to allow chaos to attack terra.

He may be a corpse-god, but he's not "dead" dead- just kind-of dead.

04-11-2007, 10:27
I thought the Astronomican was actually mantained by sacrificed Psykers >.<

I got nothing on the Chaos underneath the golden throne thing though.

But hey <,< Like I said, this doesn't have to be "The Emperor" - it can be an impostor as well. Even if the impostor is ****** crazy enough to believe they really are the God-Emperor of Mankind.

04-11-2007, 10:30
Very interesting. I too am quite a fan of the Inquisition, and I have also read the Thorian sourcebook. I love reading about all the different ideologies amongst the different Thorians.

One of the stated missions of the Inquisition is to seek out what are known as "Divine Avatars" in order to either kill them, control them or study them according to the particular Inquisitors philosophy. Such "Divine Avatars" are what are believed to be individuals that are capable of embodying the mind and soul of the Emperor of Mankind, instigating a Second Coming of the Emperor.

The Magi in particular are Inquisitors whose philosophy is descendant of Moriana, one of the original founding members of the Inquisition who became the most Ultra-Radical. They instead of wishing to suppress such a Divine Avatar, wish to bring it about. Depending on thier own interpretations they want to bring about a Second Coming of the Emperor through various means including dabbling with Chaos, or becoming utterly devout to thier God-Emperor to be blessed with favour, hoping that thet themselves will become Divine Avatars.

I'm sure you probably know all this squirrel, but this is for the benefit of others who might be unfamiliar with the Thorians. :)

I think your idea is perfectly plausible. Powerful psykers and rogue Imperial Commanders have carved out small Empires for themselves and went unnoticed by the Imperium for thousands of years.

The Psyker in question could very well recieve some measure of the Emperors memories psychically. Like picking up Radio signals through space that have been travelling for years and years. He isn't the Real Emperor, he just has the insane belief that he is. The Real Emperor on the Throne need not be dead or alive.

The storms continue the isolation. It's quite possible the Imperium would know absolutely nothing of this entire era. It's a very interesting idea.

Cry of the Wind
04-11-2007, 17:00
While I think I'll always be one of those people that will never like some of your ideas (I will never be convinced of the need for female marines of any kind, nothing against the ladies, it's just that's not what marines were made out to be).

That said I think you've created as good a situation as any for your own fluff to exist. There are all kinds of strange things that can happen out there and while I personally try to stay away from those ideas that are really far out there, I think you've got a good concept going on there. You've left it open enough for multiple explanations of what is going on (much like most 40k fluff) and overall I'd say this is probably the best way to go about your female marine plans.

Just remember that if the Imperium as a whole became aware of you there would probably be a huge response. After all you've created an 'imposter' Emperor and no matter how much the Thorians might object I can't see any other course of action other than a crusade (and while Nids and Tau may eat up resources I'm sure the Inquisition and even the High Lords of Terra would find the troops needed to silence this most blasphemous of heretics.).

04-11-2007, 21:29
Likely so Cry.

And thanks everyone. I know this is a fairly "out here" idea, but I feel it gives me far more freedom, and thus more room to play (the key to having a good time for me <,<) than my original method. It also gives me an excuse to try to field my "primarch" in games of 40k - she's not a real Primarch, but rather a pseudo-Primarch; so very powerful, but not to the degree a real primarch would be.