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View Full Version : Could the HH fluff actually match the standard fluff?



Iuris
09-09-2005, 10:13
OK, I just read the little bits of fluff on sabretooth.com, and, er, I kind of liked it.

The main grievance with it seems to be the bit about the webway.

While the storyline about a demonic assault through the webway is a new addition, it is not really impossible. Gateways to the Webway seem to be rather common throughout the galaxy and the presence of one on Terra is not really impossible. With the Emperor present on the planet for a period of about 40000 years at the time, its discovery, study and potential opening is not impossible. If so, Horus might have been aware of its existence, and with the majority of the Adeptus Mechanicus on Mars rebelling, a sabotage of the safety measures, allowing a demonic incursion is not impossible.

We all know of the golden throne as it is, a life preserving system for the Emperor, built from the stasis coccoon used to preserve the Emperor's body. However, all emperors have thrones, and it would not be unusual for the emperor's throne to be named the golden throne even before the "ascension". In fact, it would be far more likely that an original throne name would serve as the inspirational name for later arcane machinery that would have the emperor as its centerpiece, nor would it be unusual that a device that enhanced/channeled the emperor's psychic might be named thus. Possible purposes would include the startup or the focusing of the astronomican, the device for astropath conversion and similar. In the event of a demonic incursion, it would not be unusual for such a device to be used to attempt to close the webway gate.

We all know the story of the final confrontation between the Emperor and Horus. The emperor's body was shattered, so he was placed into a stasis field. As the body was ravaged beyond repair, it would not be unexpected to use the existing machine, as above, to strenghten/conserve his soul.

Any thoughts?

Kage2020
09-09-2005, 14:43
The contradiction is more in the Webway 'fluff' than anything else. While not impossible to have one or more Webway portals on Terra - likely even - to have it conveniently being filled with 'Chaos' doesn't necessarily play out. Admittedly it was a time of stress for the eldar, but throwing open the gates of the Webway? Hmmn...

For me it just seems a rather obvious way of getting a 'summer campaign' out of it. One that has a lot of hand-waving and no progression in the story, overall.

But, heck, what do I know.

Kage

FieronThor
09-09-2005, 17:32
I liked it as well, however there were bits like Ferrus Mannus being decapitated and the style in which the fluff was written which were disappointing.

Nazguire
10-09-2005, 12:10
I liked it as well, however there were bits like Ferrus Mannus being decapitated and the style in which the fluff was written which were disappointing.

A lot of it matches, or closely matches the current background. However, bits like the aforementioned are not welcome, as they take out the mysteries and intrigue of the Horus Heresy. I'm all for expanded background on the Heresy, but if it irons out ALL the kinks in it, I have no time for it.

At the moment I am unsure about the battle of Prospero. Before, it said that the Space Wolves utterly annihilated the Thousand Sons, as they were not even aware that the SW's were in orbit, as they were too busy studying. Nowadays, it is "casualties were high on both sides" and "to their credit, the Thousand Sons reacted quickly". Also, the Sisters of Silence and Legio Custodes were also there. Which I dislike. It takes glory out of one of the most influential battles the Space Wolves fought and won in, and just makes it the standard HH background of "Legio Custodes/Sisters of Silence are unbeatable, due to 'bling bling armour' and/or psychic blankness' "

gLOBS
10-09-2005, 13:31
Well thinking in fluff terms with a webay or two being on terra, it seems a much easier route to get to the Emperor for Cypher if he were to ever figure out how to get in and navigate.

Kage2020
10-09-2005, 15:09
Indeed, as pointed out on the other thread. It seems too obvious a method. The word 'fudged' could be used. :D

Kage

FieronThor
10-09-2005, 15:13
Actually the bit bout the SW not defeating the 1k Sons on their own was a bit I liked. I just found highly improbably that even with superior numbers the Thousand Sons could of got so badly beaten as they had been. Surely there would of been impressive defenses around Prospero and Tirza (Prospero's capital)

sulla
10-09-2005, 19:26
Yeah, traditionally assault forces needed to outnumber defenders by about 3 to 1, especially if the goal was elimination of the beseiged (planetbound) foe. Less if you were trying to just force an accord with them buit I doubt that was the emperor's intention...And since the TS would have planetside allies from the local population and terrain on their side, the idea of the wolves being able to destroy them on their own was always a bit... optimistic.

FieronThor
10-09-2005, 23:29
Nicely put. However I always thought as well tha the Thousand Sons purposefully llowed the SW to attack in order to have some sort of vindication for their betrayal, but were slightly taken aback by the ferocity of the Wolves' attack

Delicious Soy
11-09-2005, 01:50
Actually the bit bout the SW not defeating the 1k Sons on their own was a bit I liked. I just found highly improbably that even with superior numbers the Thousand Sons could of got so badly beaten as they had been. Surely there would of been impressive defenses around Prospero and Tirza (Prospero's capital)
Most of those defences were largely unattended when the space wolves arrived. Russ took control of them with ease and blew the crap out of Prospero before launching his assault. At least thats the traditional (and proper) story. HH fluff is not only contravening previous writings, its doing it in a very poor way. It might've been accepted a lot warmer if it retained some of the character of the older writings.

Nazguire
11-09-2005, 05:52
Most of those defences were largely unattended when the space wolves arrived. Russ took control of them with ease and blew the crap out of Prospero before launching his assault. At least thats the traditional (and proper) story. HH fluff is not only contravening previous writings, its doing it in a very poor way. It might've been accepted a lot warmer if it retained some of the character of the older writings.

As I said before, that version is much more preferable as it fits in more with the whole "Tzeentch deceived Magnus" plot line. After all, that was the reason that the Space Wolves managed such a victory according to the Index Astartes.

FieronThor
11-09-2005, 13:47
Hadn't thought of it like that before. However what I would not understand is why would Tzeentch want most of the Thousand Sons destroyed by the Space Wolves. I'm pretty sure he could of used some other scheme to get the 1k Sos over to Chaos.

Xisor
11-09-2005, 17:56
Hadn't thought of it like that before. However what I would not understand is why would Tzeentch want most of the Thousand Sons destroyed by the Space Wolves. I'm pretty sure he could of used some other scheme to get the 1k Sos over to Chaos.

Indeed surely allowing Magnus and the 1Ksons to see the full power of their sorcerous ways unleashed against the SWs and *beating* them would have been a far more useful way to gain the service of the legion...

All that said, I must concur with the beginnings of the thread, I've found the the fluff, if somewhat poorly written, to at it's heart still be quite endearing. The current stuff on the Assault of Terra seems to be sticking fairly close to the original stuff, and the 'Beyond the Golden Throne' part, even though I was struck sideways with it, is very appealing in my eyes. It seems to add a bit of credibility and continuity to things. The Emp still being top dog, researching into the webway, Magnus ballsing things up with his sorcerous/daemonic message/warning, the whole shebang exploding, daemons pouring forth etc. In fact, during the 'Assault' stories, it now mentions the Emperor knowing he must abandon the defence of the throne to confront Horus...I wonder how it'll pan out? How is the decision made, what are the effects etc etc?

Xisor

FieronThor
11-09-2005, 22:02
Most of the later parts of the Sabretooth fluff is pretty much exactly much the same as the original fluff. However with this bit about the webway means that they will have to clarify how the webway does not become besieged by daemons after the Emperor is injured.

Delicious Soy
12-09-2005, 01:10
Indeed surely allowing Magnus and the 1Ksons to see the full power of their sorcerous ways unleashed against the SWs and *beating* them would have been a far more useful way to gain the service of the legion...Not really. If Magnus used sorcery and defeated the Wolves, he would've simply been vidicated and wouldn't have turned to embrace chaos wholeheartedly. Like the Death Guard, pushing the Thousands Sons into a no win other than chaos was the only way to get Magnus to submit to the will odf Tzeentch, before Prospero he had set out to control the powers of the warp, only a disaster of the magnitude of Russ' assault could have turned him to submission.

Nazguire
12-09-2005, 06:15
However, Magnus still doesn't accept that he serves Tzeentch, rather they are allies, so its not submission, more like a son rebelling against his father.

FieronThor
12-09-2005, 18:21
But since Magnus is a Daemon Price, andall of them have true names, then surely Magnus knows his master is Tzeentch.

Nazguire
14-09-2005, 10:11
But since Magnus is a Daemon Price, andall of them have true names, then surely Magnus knows his master is Tzeentch.


Oh he may know, but doesn't mean he accepts it. Just as Ahriman would deep down know that Tzeentch controls him, but he does not accept it, no way in Hell.

Wiseman
14-09-2005, 10:32
But wouldnt Magnus's true name be Magnus as he was a mortal elevated to daemon status, or would he gain a daemonic name instead?

Nazguire
14-09-2005, 10:46
But wouldnt Magnus's true name be Magnus as he was a mortal elevated to daemon status, or would he gain a daemonic name instead?


Probably, but he may prefer to be called Magnus, or the Games Workshop background designers don't wish to constantly write a one hundred syllable name every paragraph. :D

Brusilov
14-09-2005, 12:47
The presence of the Custodes and especially the Sisters of Silence on Prospero make a lot of sense. If the Emperor wanted to punish Magnus he would send his personal guards, to leave no doubt in Magnus' mind how angry he is at him for betraying his trust and breaking his solemn oath not to continue studying sorcery. And the presence of the Sisters of Silence make perfect sense too. After all, who would you call if you were fighting a Legion of Space Marines with the highest rate of psykers in the Imperium, people who are immune to it, obviously.

As to the Webway thingie, it makes sense the Emperor would be looking for alternative means to travel the galaxy, not as dangerous as the warp. The thing is, it's not supposed to be the bloody Golden Throne. That device is supposed to only be constructed much later and serve a complete different purpose (although you could argue that the Emperor's mind would be needed to keep the portal closed, but I disagree with that. If Eldar can seal portals, the Emperor or even the Imperium at large could have found a way).

Wiseman
14-09-2005, 13:41
Probably, but he may prefer to be called Magnus, or the Games Workshop background designers don't wish to constantly write a one hundred syllable name every paragraph. :D
and why not, theres nothing wrong with writing jael'skie'kjasm'etgfd'etsfds'asde'merbahg'sff's's' ka all the time now is there?

Sikkukkut
14-09-2005, 13:46
Oh he may know, but doesn't mean he accepts it. Just as Ahriman would deep down know that Tzeentch controls him, but he does not accept it, no way in Hell.

Actually, my picture of Magnus was that he does accept his fate: remember that when he was about to rip Ahriman a new one (literally), Tzeentch stepped in and told him not to and he gave over without a second thought.

That's what I saw as being the fundamental schism between Magnus and Ahriman, of which the Rubric and Ahriman's exile was just one symptom. Ahriman refuses to accept his own damnation and insists he will be able to master Chaos some day. Magnus has given up on that hope and resigned himself: he's rolled over and let Tzeentch put his boot on his throat.

I have a hard time deciding which of them Tzeentch is laughing the harder at.

Wiseman
14-09-2005, 14:17
I'd say he is laughing at Ahriman more, as he will see him as a minor challenge, which is better then a submissive pet

Xisor
14-09-2005, 15:23
After all, who would you call if you were fighting a Legion of Space Marines with the highest rate of psykers in the Imperium, people who are immune to it, obviously.

My answer would have been "The Ghostbusters!", though in hindsight it does seem a bit silly... :rolleyes:

As to the Magnus/Arhiman debate, I'd also say it's Arhiman that Tzeench focuses on. Magnus is merely an extremely powerful weapon now, like a nuke, Arhiman still requires a bit of 'skill' to use effectively...

Xisor

precinctomega
14-09-2005, 15:48
Well, the HH 3 book seems to indicate that it was Magnus sending a sorcerous warning to the Emperor about the Drop-site Massacres that led to the wards on the Imperial Web-way being broken down and the daemons gaining access. Whether the Emp even got the message is far from clear - he just knew that it was Magnus who had broken the wards.

The relationship between the Golden Throne as life-support machine and the Golden Throne as the control mechanism for the Webway has yet to be established in the canon. It may be that the latter use was intended to be a temporary measure, using incidental capabilities of the Throne to preserve the Emp's life. It would explain why (a) it's so damn huge and (b) how it was all built and ready when the Emp got struck down by Horus.

It seems relatively clear that the Imperial Webway is no longer conventionally useable, being overrun with daemons, although that's not completely definite by any means. Perhaps the wards have been restored (what HAS the Emp been doing with his days these last ten millennia?)? Perhaps mankind's salvation just lies waiting for his to discover? Perhaps that's what Cypher's been trying to do all these years?

In any case, it raises a question about the Eldar webway: if the GT was the control mechanism for the Imperial webway, and assuming (BIG assumption) that the two work the same way, then where's the control mechanism for the Eldar webway? I see only two possible answers: the Black Library or Commorragh. The BL seems logical, but if its Commorragh, it would explain why the CWE haven't taken arms against their Dark Kin to date...

R.

Kage2020
14-09-2005, 22:34
Sorry, this is slightly spammy... Imperial webway?

Kage

Wiseman
15-09-2005, 01:47
Kage i think that with the new HH books they have given the Imperium acess to the webway, though im not entirely sure, if that is the case well its just another piece of butchered fluff

Briareos
15-09-2005, 07:39
I seriously doubt that the Emperor, for all his powers, could create a webway from scratch. He probably just punched his way into the Eldar webway.
Given that the Eldar, with their now (M39-40) limited understanding of the webway tech, are perfectly able to close of portals either through rituals or rune sigils it would be very very strange if the Emperor hadn't been able to close of the Golden Throne portal in 10.000 years.

This whole idea of an imperial webway stinks of gimmicks and "rule of cool". It either needs to be greatly expended (unlikely given the potential contradictions with existing fluff) or nuked into oblivion.

Prepare the nukes...

precinctomega
15-09-2005, 11:05
Look here (http://www.sabertoothgames.com/horus/lore_background30.asp) for the background to the Imperial webway. Click on the "Behind the Golden Throne" links.

This material is written by Marc Gascoigne, apparently.

R.

Briareos
15-09-2005, 12:19
What the HHCCG fluff says is that the forces of the Imperium managed to close the warp portal into the webway once, Magnus busted the seals, and... The Emperor is stuck garding the opened portal. How come it is now no longer possible to create new seals ?

And seriously, what is worse ; the loss of a single planet (be it Terra), or the loss of the guidance of the Emperor ?

Bleh, I'm glad I'm not holding my breath waiting for the GW IP department to produce coherent and thought-out storylines...

Kage : Not really 'Imperial Webway' - more of a portal into the one-and-only-stable-through-the-warp-commonly-used-by-the-Eldar-race webway. As I mentionned, advocating that the Emperor created a whole new webway from scratch in a matter of years on his lonesome is simply ludicrous, as I'm sure you'll agree ;) .