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FatOlaf
04-11-2007, 13:30
Building rules in 7th state that 'buildings are impassable to all models except for infantry'

Skaven army book states that a) Jezzail units are skirmishers, all normal skirmisher rules apply
b) treat them exactly like cavalry models, this means that they have US2 and get a 6+ basic armour phase (to represent the fact that there are effectively two models to kill, simliar to cavalry models)
this paragraph also goes on to say that they can not be picked out by missle fire as they are the same size as the other skaven around them.

So basically are they cavalry in terms of not getting into buildings?
Logic dictates no but 6th ed rules vs 7th brings up a possible problem?
Thoughts?

Atrahasis
04-11-2007, 13:51
"The only difference from normal cavalry is that they cannot be singled out..."

If that's the only difference, then they can't enter buildings, because that would be another difference.

FatOlaf
04-11-2007, 14:02
The only other difference surely is that there is no giant horse...
Cant believe that two rats on foot carrying a gun are not considered infantry...

Crube
04-11-2007, 14:03
I read the rules here as they are skirmishing cavalry, with the exception that thay cant be picked out by shooting, so I would say no they can't

Dont particularly agree with it, but hey...

FatOlaf
04-11-2007, 14:14
No i think it is a case of badly written 6th Ed rules meets simplified 7th rules with the typical lack of GW logic.
Looking at the rules for weapon teams later in the book, it seems to be slightly better written and can be seen as though they are similar to cavalry in terms of US and AS.

7th Ed states cavalry as being riders mounted on horses or four legged creatues mounted on a cav base.
However infantry rules merely states that they bare normally mounted on 20/25 0r 40 mm bases.
However it looks like it is a House rule job or a long wait till next skaven book....

Ganymede
04-11-2007, 14:53
Q. It states in the book that some Skaven units are treated exactly like cavalry. Does that mean that the Screaming Bell can affect them as it does cavalry? Does it mean that spells which affect cavalry units affect these Skaven units in the same way?

A. No. They are not affected by spells that affect cavalry because these spells generally speak of targetting the mounts (ie, scaring horses).

I think this particular FAQ is helpful in enlightening this situation. Here, we learn that when GW says "treated exactly as cavalry," they don't really mean it. Could the same rationalle that allows weapon teams and jezzails to be exempt from abilities that target cavalry extend to other situations? Could we allow jezzails into a building on the basis that the building rules are designed as such to prevent mounts from entering?

FatOlaf
04-11-2007, 15:02
I think that has raised a very good point, we know the main point of cavalry not getting into a building is the horse, A jezzail does not contain a horse just a large rifle.
That FAQ has proved very interesting Ganymede, thanks!

DeathlessDraich
04-11-2007, 16:02
Fat Olaf, as a Skaven player I've interpreted that Jezzails, Ratling guns etc cannot enter buildings. I think there's enough in the rules to justify this.
I will request skavenguy13 to add to this thread.

logan054
04-11-2007, 16:16
I would have to say no they cant,then again im abit dubious about ogre size creatures entering building as well, i think what this kinda thing calls for house rules discussed before the start of any battle.

ZomboCom
04-11-2007, 21:23
The house rules are rather daft. A Dragon Ogre or Salamander can fit in a house, but two rats carrying a rifle can't.

I guess they have some three stooges style issues trynig to walk through the door holding the rifle sideways.

Atrahasis
04-11-2007, 23:29
Well, even if they could get in (and I wouldn't be averse to allowing it) only 2 would be able to shoot per level anyway.

Slacker
05-11-2007, 06:29
I personally wouldn't have a problem with it. Well, rules-wise anyway. Jezzails fortified in a building scares me on a game level.

Griefbringer
05-11-2007, 12:18
I guess they have some three stooges style issues trynig to walk through the door holding the rifle sideways.

Considering that we are talking about skaven, this sounds pretty much possible.

Imagine what would happen with a skaven warpfire thrower inside a building - they would probably end up having trouble aiming the thing out of the window, managing to instead scorch the insides of the house and themselves! :evilgrin:

skavenguy13
05-11-2007, 17:05
From the different arguments here I conclude that a true rules lawyer and/or annoying and/or "win at all cost" player will tell you you can't, and he'd be right because the FAQ is not complete enough to mention buildings.

However, 99% players should let you do it because it's pretty stupid and with that FAQ it's very clear it was simply overlooked.

RavenBloodwind
05-11-2007, 17:13
This actually came up in a game I played yesterday with WE vs Skaven. I let him put his jezails in a building. Seemed logical. I did ask the 'are they cav' question and we kind of decided, as others have, that while maybe technically they can't enter the building we should let them.

Since they were one of 2 units in the skaven 3k army left at the end of the game it wasn't critical.

L192837465
05-11-2007, 18:18
as stated earilier: jezzales have a 6+ save to account for 2 rats on 1 base. they act as skirmishers in all other aspects.

can skirmishers enter a building? and if yes, then yes, jezzails can enter a building.

Atrahasis
05-11-2007, 18:21
as stated earilier: jezzales have a 6+ save to account for 2 rats on 1 base. they act as skirmishers in all other aspects.

can skirmishers enter a building? and if yes, then yes, jezzails can enter a building.

Skirmishers cannot enter buildings unless they are infantry. Jezzails are treated as cavalry, and so they cannot be treated as infantry.

logan054
05-11-2007, 21:16
@L192837465 - so peg knights can enter buildings as they are skirmishers? no i think not..

FatOlaf
07-11-2007, 11:34
Well, even if they could get in (and I wouldn't be averse to allowing it) only 2 would be able to shoot per level anyway.

Agreed and my units are only 5 strong going into a 3 level tower, so no problems there with them all shooting


I personally wouldn't have a problem with it. Well, rules-wise anyway. Jezzails fortified in a building scares me on a game level.

And that's what scares my opponents, even thought in our current battles (border patrol) my skaven have gone undefeated mainly down to a good balance between my warlock, ratling, jezzails and fat units. The one battle where my jezzail were in a tower, they hit virtually nothing all games.


From the different arguments here I conclude that a true rules lawyer and/or annoying and/or "win at all cost" player will tell you you can't, and he'd be right because the FAQ is not complete enough to mention buildings.

However, 99% players should let you do it because it's pretty stupid and with that FAQ it's very clear it was simply overlooked.

I agree Skavenguy, it's only the RAW killjoys that are going to object, but6 such a shame that there is another 7th Ed 'nerf' for our beloved ratties...:(

DeathlessDraich
08-11-2007, 09:23
The alternative to not allowing Jezzails enter a building is better than you think Fat Olaf.

Instead of a -3 to being shot at, they cannot even be targeted!

1) They are small enough obviously to enter a building but the rules forbid entrance for all cavalry units.
Jezzails’ rules – “treat them *exactly* as cavalry except...” .

2) If you disallow Jezzails from entering buildings because of this rule, then you must also accept that they cannot be shot at when there are Skaven units around them - "they cannot be singled out by enemy shooters"

A rule I've never used but is certainly valid.

ZeroTwentythree
08-11-2007, 18:53
2) If you disallow Jezzails from entering buildings because of this rule, then you must also accept that they cannot be shot at when there are Skaven units around them - "they cannot be singled out by enemy shooters"

A rule I've never used but is certainly valid.



IIRC, the "rule" part only says that can't be targeted. The "because they are the same size" is only an explanation why the rule is in place ("fluff".)

But no, I've never seen anyone try to use that, but now that you have reminded me, I will use it as leverage now, since I've been playing with jezzails that can not enter buildings. I can't wait for the game in which I get to say, "Well, OK, I guess they can't enter the building because that's RAW. But if that's the case, I guess they can't be shot at all..."

Don't have the book in front of me, but if consensus is that jezzails should be allowed in buildings (not RAW) then would that mean ratlings and WFT are allowed as well?

DeathlessDraich
09-11-2007, 08:56
The same rules appear in the Weapons team section except the 'cannot be targeted' bit is modified to being the same as targeting characters - so no leverage there.

Commissar Bone
09-11-2007, 23:52
Hahaha, I think we're starting to stretch things with this 'cannot be targeted' business. :)

As far as entering buildings goes, I think there's a good amount of leeway to make a case for either side. Personally, I might suggest a compromise with my fellow players and say that Jezzail teams could *deploy* inside a building in their setup area, but not move in/out during the game. I.e. the rats have snuck in and set up their sniper positions, but creating the loopholes and setting up their Jezzails, etc, pretty well keeps them in that spot during the game.

Veldemere
10-11-2007, 00:09
but in a 500 point border patrol where your opponent has 6 jezzails I suspect you would have a similar p.o.v. to me and to say that only a WAAC player would say no, initially you need to understand the house rules on terrain placement (hint: it depends on the proximity of the CD player) and you also need to understand the skaven list has won 100%, maybe some quarter should be given in a 'fun' game to make the whole question moot anyway.

ZeroTwentythree
10-11-2007, 20:39
Hahaha, I think we're starting to stretch things with this 'cannot be targeted' business. :)

As far as entering buildings goes, I think there's a good amount of leeway to make a case for either side. Personally, I might suggest a compromise with my fellow players and say that Jezzail teams could *deploy* inside a building in their setup area, but not move in/out during the game. I.e. the rats have snuck in and set up their sniper positions, but creating the loopholes and setting up their Jezzails, etc, pretty well keeps them in that spot during the game.



That's a fine compromise for a house rule, but that bears less resemblance to the way the rules are written than the "cannot be targeted" which is actually in the book. Not that I think anyone is seriously suggesting that they cannot be targeted. I think the point is that if skaven players are being reasonable and not taking that obvious inconsistency as the way the game is meant to be played, then maybe opponents should be a little understanding in regards to the changes caused by wording and the move from 6th ed. rules to 7th ed. rules.

FatOlaf
11-11-2007, 11:48
I think I might just rely on the common sense of my opponents rather than try the can not be targetted rule (however much fun that it would be to try)

logan054
11-11-2007, 12:11
Hahaha, I think we're starting to stretch things with this 'cannot be targeted' business. :)

As far as entering buildings goes, I think there's a good amount of leeway to make a case for either side. Personally, I might suggest a compromise with my fellow players and say that Jezzail teams could *deploy* inside a building in their setup area, but not move in/out during the game. I.e. the rats have snuck in and set up their sniper positions, but creating the loopholes and setting up their Jezzails, etc, pretty well keeps them in that spot during the game.

again you cant do that as you cant having building in the deployment zone, the only thing im aware of is hills being allowed in the deployment zone, of course if you did deploy them in a building and you saying they enter then they cant leave either and this creates problems when you assault said building anyways, i assume then your saying they are instantly destroyed as they cant leave.

EvC
11-11-2007, 14:26
You can put a building in your zone, but if any of it sticks out the deployment zone, you can't deploy a unit in the building, as then the unit would be closer than 24" to the enemy.

mgchu
17-08-2008, 15:20
Hy, as a player of skaven and daemons armies, I ve found in the new errata of daemons that infantry units can enter building, notwithtanding their unit stregnth (ie beast of nurgle! US 3). unluckily for skaven, it doent say in the army book "treat them as infantry".

maybe GW decided the "cavalry base rule" on purpose not to let them in. But I agree is impractical for jezzails: the guys are rats...long rifle....building, sounds like prohibiting the entrance to a cellar (hey! thay are rats! just joking). the pavise rule equals the heavy coverage rule, so they get the same armor save, only 2 shoot per floor...only the advantages against charges are gained. doesnt seem soooo much terrible.

On the other hand, for rattling and warpfire it may be a little more "wow!"

respect to "may not singled out", I would let use that rule, but for a single miniature (be it rattling, warp or jezzail). but it would not be very practical to deploy 1 jezzail.

cheers

Atrahasis
17-08-2008, 15:26
Threads smell bad after 280 days.