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Mr. Snazz
05-11-2007, 14:33
My wife and I are newbie players; we were playing a game w/ magic for the first time yesterday. We had one level 1 wizard each.

Casting, I roll two dice (the wizard's single die plus one from the shared pool of two). Dispelling, she rolls three dice (one from her wizard, plus both of her base dispel dice).

Nobody got a single spell off without it being dispelled, the entire game. Two dice vs. Three dice, the odds seem stacked in favor of the defense.

Is this just how it goes when playing small games w/ single lvl 1 wizards, or did we do something wrong?

Alathir
05-11-2007, 14:38
one wizard vs. one wizard, especially if both are lvl 1, will definetly prove a challenge for either mage to overcome the other. It's once you have more mages, two lvl 2's for example that more spells start getting through as you usually have more power dice than the opponent does dispel dice.

For example, if you have two Lvl 2's and she had the same... you would have your two base power dice, and four from the mages, giving you a total of 6. While she would only have 4 to use as defense.

You both played correctly, its just that you didnt really have enough magic for it to make an impact.

Try taking a Lvl 4 mage lord and two Lvl 2 mages and I assure your spells will get through alot more.

Also note, that in 7th magic was toned down quite a bit (a needed change, I might add) and so magic phases can be quite underwhelming unless there is a significant amount of it.

Mr. Snazz
05-11-2007, 14:46
Thanks Alathir, that makes a lot of sense! We'll try it out with two lvl 2's each next time.

Another quick magic question; the spell(s) that a wizard can cast are generated randomly prior to the start of play, correct? So whatever spell(s) you generate, that's what your wizards have for the entire game?

Atrahasis
05-11-2007, 14:49
Correct, once you roll your spell(s) that's what you've got.

Alathir
05-11-2007, 14:51
No problem! Always happy to help out a new player. :D

To answer your other question, yes, all spells are generated prior to the game and each individual mage is restricted to whatever he or she has rolled. No mage is able to 'learn' new spells throughout the game although they can 'forget' them if you happen to roll poorly on the miscast chart :p

Hope that helps and I hope your both enjoy the games!

theunwantedbeing
05-11-2007, 16:50
Remember that you generate a new pool of dice each turn.

W0lf
05-11-2007, 20:50
and that you have to use the wizards base dice.

Oh and to answer the question about magic being hard...

I run a 15 power dice Tzeentch chaos list and when your opponent has 5 dispel dice, believe me.. its not much fun for them, nor hard for me :P

a lvl 1 vs lvl 1 is bound to be little - no magic.

As suggested try 2 lvl 2s each.

One.Fit.Outcast.
06-11-2007, 00:11
for 2000 points my khorne army churns out 7 dispel dice =]
quite easily repelling anything not entirely devoted to the dubious arts of spellcasting. but starting out a fairly small empire army, it's apparent i need some defense, which got me looking at the spells themselves, the lore of death seems very appealing (chaos background, what can i say?) but i still only rate magic as minor part of a battle, presumably from what's said above it used to be a lot more dominant?

Menset
06-11-2007, 07:44
@ Mr. Snazz, magic at the lower levels is quite hard to get your mind around as the dispel dice seem to equal the Power dice, but at higher levels in bigger games that is when it adds a bit of fun to the game. Take the advice of the others and play with more wizards or at least try a lvl4.

@ One.Fit.Outcast, From what I can remember from the haze of my childhood 5th edition magic was a sport, something you mastered, a magic phase went on for what felt like half the game and units seemed to disappear and Characters where silly with there magic......It was watching these battles of will that made me start Warhammer Fantasy.

Kroxigore
06-11-2007, 09:42
The way I see it, magic is a nothing-or-all thing. You either go magic heavy or you let it be completely. Anything inbetween is rather uneffective in most cases. I play lizardmen and I really love the Slann of the 2nd generation. He is just a monster with magic! Also with the 'new' miscast table, ignoring miscasts is really nice!

Arnizipal
06-11-2007, 17:57
Another quick magic question; the spell(s) that a wizard can cast are generated randomly prior to the start of play, correct? So whatever spell(s) you generate, that's what your wizards have for the entire game?
Yes, but remember you can always choose to switch one of the spells you rolled to the first spell from the list (unless you already rolled that one randomly).

So a if a level 2 mage rolls up spell 4 and 5, but you don't like spell 5, you can always switch it for spell 1.
Of course if your mage rolled up 1 and 5, you're stuck with spell 5 regardless. :p

EDIT: on the subject of two level 1 maes facing off: try giving them a bound item. It's a free spell that's cast at a set power level and makes your level one mage twice as efficient.

Finnigan2004
07-11-2007, 03:49
Unfortunately, the way that magic is structured it can become an all or nothing thing. I once took 8 casting dice to a tournament and got off three spells in four games. If you take more than ten dice to a tournament, it is automatically considered cheesy by some. On the other hand, if you have less than this it is too unreliable to be worth the points. The rate that casting dice and dispel dice are gained (a rate of roughly two to one), the progression becomes somewhat geometric as you add higher levels of casters. Magic can be fun, but you need to spend a great number of points on it to make it effective at all in my opinion.

sainthale1988
07-11-2007, 13:43
i have an empire army and i'm totaly fed up of getting blasted apart by mage armies of doom (dark elves take a bow) thus i have gone for the all warrior priest army thus
I get two basic dispel dice
2 more from my arch lector (who also has magic resistance 2)
3 more from my 3 warrior priests (1 also has magic resistance 1 and another has magic resistance 2)
if i also took the banner of archane warding another unit (the one with the warior priest without magic resistance) would also get 2 more dispel dice.

i magic attack i get
5 prayers (effectivly bound spells)
1 war altar law of light spell (bound)
ring of fire (bound)
and ring of volrans (sorry wrong spelling but a one use bound magic item)
so i can though a lot of anoying magic back at my enemy

they are also relatively good CC caracters who inspire hatred in all enamies and have leadership 8 :D

howzat?

pcgamer72
07-11-2007, 18:43
If y'all are playing considerably small point games, you might try even one level 2. At level 2, not only do you generate an extra power dice, but you also know an extra spell. So, you will have 4 dice to use over 2 spells. This means that you can use 2 dice for each spell or possibly 3 dice for 1 (since your wizard is lvl 2) and 1 dice for the second spell if you are using a lore with a low-cast spell such as Beasts with Bear's Anger.

Right now with your level 1 wizard, you are missing out on using a power dice each turn unless you are taking a Spell Familiar or something like that.

Fox_13
09-11-2007, 10:57
i have an empire army and i'm totaly fed up of getting blasted apart by mage armies of doom (dark elves take a bow) thus i have gone for the all warrior priest army thus
I get two basic dispel dice
2 more from my arch lector (who also has magic resistance 2)
3 more from my 3 warrior priests (1 also has magic resistance 1 and another has magic resistance 2)
if i also took the banner of archane warding another unit (the one with the warior priest without magic resistance) would also get 2 more dispel dice.


7 base dispel dice is more than enough to counter magic heavy armies in any game under 3k points even without the magic resistance. As some one who does take a magic heavy army from time to time i would say it would be better to swap out the magic resistance for scrolls if you can so you will be able to stop the spells you need to stop. Its much better to burn a scroll at those 15+ roles than trust to the fates.

Countering magic heavy armies with even more magic does seem to be joining the dark side with the tone of your post. It might be a better tactic to take some scroll caddies to lock down the magic in the first few turns while you take out the magicians.



Getting back to the topic a level 1 wizard is only relay useful as a back up to a more powerful wizard or as a scroll caddie. A level 3 or 4 wizard will give you a much better idea of how magic works.

Nothing is more fun than brining along a Gray Seer on a bell when you are only facing a level 1 skink priest :)

Havock
09-11-2007, 12:25
why two level 1's?

If both had a level 2, more magic would have gotten through. Heck, it would definately be more interesting.

sainthale1988
09-11-2007, 17:10
Countering magic heavy armies with even more magic does seem to be joining the dark side with the tone of your post. It might be a better tactic to take some scroll caddies to lock down the magic in the first few turns while you take out the magicians.
:)

i just like warrior priests, fluff wise and hatred confering wise, also i've run into a rash of tzeentch and dark elf mage armies of doom

Khorneflakes
10-11-2007, 01:29
you could always try and kill off the enemy mage(s) and your spells will go off a lot easier

Mr. Snazz
10-11-2007, 03:20
why two level 1's?

If both had a level 2, more magic would have gotten through. Heck, it would definately be more interesting.

Well, we are new players, and were trying to take it slow. Apparently we took it too slow! :D

theunwantedbeing
10-11-2007, 11:37
Heavy magic as in 12+ dice and a bound spell or 3 can be stopped by heavy magical defences and a bit of luck.
A single level 2 with a bound spell vs anotehr level 2 can get 1-3 spells off successfully for relatively few points.
150 for the single level 2 as opposed to more like 7-900 for the heavy magic list.

The main difference is that the heavy magic list can simply kill the opposing magical defences and then have a more powerful effect.
12+ dice and a couple of bound spells tends to make a mockery of 2 dispel dice.

Killing the single opposing level 2 mage means you face 1 less dispel dice.

You can very easily take a level of magic somewhere in the middle.
It's not too difficult to get 9 dice and 6 dispel dice from 2 magic users(level 4 and level 2 plus an item or 2 that adds dice to each pool) and you only need to spend a few hundred managing it(I spend about 550pts).

I really need to kill the enemy mages to get the full effect of my magic phase but thats what I do, failing to manage that is where it seems pointless to take lots of magic if it will all be countered.

That and not realising when you simply have poor luck casting or your opponent gets lucky in dispelling.
A Miscast ending the phase on your first spell attempt really hurts for a heavy magic army. Not really a problem the single level 2 mage faces.

Kroxigore
11-11-2007, 13:48
I personally love terradons. They are my personal dispell scroll :D That hit and run thing makes them really good against mages in units. Just attack them, if you have about four Terradons, you can place them, so that two of them are in contact with the wizard and that's 6 attacks str4 against that poor bloke. The other 6 go against the unit and if you loose CC, you just flee and rally automatically. If you win, perfect!

Mr. Snazz
13-11-2007, 18:31
Right now with your level 1 wizard, you are missing out on using a power dice each turn unless you are taking a Spell Familiar or something like that.

Where are the rules for Familiars? I can't seem to find them in the 7th edition rulebook nor the Hordes of Chaos army book... I might be blind though!

Arnizipal
13-11-2007, 18:37
They are army specific. Only Vampire Counts and Chaos can have them IIRC.
See Hordes of Chaos p52 in your case.

Mr. Snazz
13-11-2007, 18:57
They are army specific. Only Vampire Counts and Chaos can have them IIRC.
See Hordes of Chaos p52 in your case.

Oh man, I AM blind. Right there on page 52. Thanks! :D

Danny76
24-11-2007, 02:39
in my small HoChaos 500 point army i always add a spell familiar to my mage to help in the magic phase