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View Full Version : Frenzied Horses, Kroxigor Charging Through Skinks, Annoyance of Nettlings



One.Fit.Outcast.
06-11-2007, 00:45
The 3 major points that get on my nerves playing warhammer:-
1. Khornate horses in accordance with the new rules in my opinion should now definately be frenzied, as the new rules says that if the rider has frenzy it is transferred to the whole model. However in the chaos army book it says "REMEMBER that mounts do not gain an extra attack if the rider has frenzy", clearly referring to the old rules.
2. By some interpretations, apparently kroxigor can't only charge a measly 12", if they are behind a unit of skinks then they get to charge 12" from the front of the unit of skinks.. I haven't read this myself but two lizardmen players I know are in debate over whether that is just for standing and shooting or not (which would make much more sense to me)
3. Annoyance of nettlings. A very annoying magic item, but what happens if something always hits on 2s, when that makes you always hit on only 6s?

Any solutions/comments would be much appreciated =]

Cragspyder
06-11-2007, 02:11
As far as number 2 goes, I can tell you that the Kroxigors must still make the full charge distance from their original location to the charged unit, to a max of 12'' as normal. The sentence that mentions that "the distance is measured from the point where the Kroxigors emerge from a screening Skink unit" refers to the distance required for a successful stand + shoot reaction by the chargee.

As in, if the Kroxigors are within 1/2 their charge distance from the charged unit when they emerge from the screening Skink unit, the charged unit may not stand + shoot, even if the Kroxigors have moved more then half their charge distance in total.

Whichever Lizardman player is arguing they get extra charge distance is wrong. I thought it was quite clear in the rules when I read it.

Alathir
06-11-2007, 04:21
1. Khornate horses do not get the frenzy bonus, it clearly states this in GW's errata.

2. I don't know much about Lizardmen, cant help you here.

3. In these instances... it is usually best to roll off on which takes precedence.

Kroxigore
06-11-2007, 09:54
I agree with Alathir, especially on the third point. I think, it's just fair, that Khornate horses do not gain an extra attack, just because Khorne armies would be pretty overpowered then (that would let a khornate Knight have a total of 4 attacks, which is too hard for its points cost imo).
The guys, that are arguing that Kroxigor thing are wrong. I have the armybook here and its states explicitely, that 'to find out, wether the charged unit can stand and shoot, measure the distance from the front of the skink screen' (this is translated from German, so it's not the exact wording). So these guys are just trying to 'interpret' the rules for their own benefit.
Hope that helps.

Skyldig
06-11-2007, 11:24
Well, rules are rules. I also think Khorne steeds should get frenzy, as as you said, it explicitly says so in the rules. And NOT the "RAW"/"loophole" kind of text either, but a common sense perspective.

But hey, GW got and screwed it up you know in a hastened bad errata. Of course it SHOULD be that OLDER armybooks OVERWRITE the NEW rulebook. That's just natural ;)

When chaos new book comes out, knight steeds will get an additional attack anyway as they're supposed to with the NEW rules. Oh, and beastherds will finally get ranks.

tanglethorn
06-11-2007, 12:14
Out of curiosity what makes one think that Beastment will suddenly rank up? They have their own special rules that give them limted ranks anyway.

Kroxigore
06-11-2007, 15:40
Well, rules are rules. I also think Khorne steeds should get frenzy, as as you said, it explicitly says so in the rules. And NOT the "RAW"/"loophole" kind of text either, but a common sense perspective.

But hey, GW got and screwed it up you know in a hastened bad errata. Of course it SHOULD be that OLDER armybooks OVERWRITE the NEW rulebook. That's just natural ;)

When chaos new book comes out, knight steeds will get an additional attack anyway as they're supposed to with the NEW rules. Oh, and beastherds will finally get ranks.

Well, the rule about Khornate Knights is not in the errata, it's in the army book. So it's not an interpretation of a rule, that makes the difference, it actually the rule itself. I personally agree on the thing said about ranking with beast herds, I think, it's a bit stupid, that beast herds should rank in ranks of four and thus get no advantage of ranking. Anyways, GW didn't change any rules, when the new rulebook came out, which I don't appreciate, but at least, they were consequent with that.

theunwantedbeing
06-11-2007, 16:54
1. They should be frenzied, thats the logical conclusion. But the rules say otherwiose and we follow the rules no matter how silly they are.
I mean high elves strike first....cant really bother even considering the whole "logic" argument when things like that are allowed to happen.

2. The 12" charge range stands as the maximum limit regardless of how many units of skinks the kroxigor wish to charge through. You measure from the starting position to their maximum range. You only measure from the skinks for the purposes of things like stand and shoot.

3. Roll for it I guess. It is just for challenges only of course, dont allow yourself to get conned into believing its all the time.

Chicago Slim
06-11-2007, 19:39
On the first point: Quit your whining. Army books take precedent over BRB, end of story. This is a sensible ruling, and prevents the need to constantly flip open books to compare copyright dates to see which is the "newer" book. (I say this as a beastman player, who has, exactly once, had my beast herd rank up four-wide. It really doesn't come up often.)

On the second point: Yeah, like everyone else said.

On the third point: I'm not sure it's well-defined in the rules, how to handle directly contradictory texts like this ("needs a 6" vs. "needs a 2"). What I typically propose to my opponent is that we throw them both out, and revert to the normal rules for hitting-- mostly, I prefer this because it's more predictable than rolling every turn to see which item "wins out", though the roll-off suits me well enough, so long as it's done every turn (one roll the first time it comes up is a bit too dicey for my tastes...)

My point is, this is the sort of rare and relatively minor thing that you ought to be able to negotiate with a reasonable opponent, reverting to a dice-off if you can't agree to something you both think is more sensible.

Skyldig
07-11-2007, 17:17
Out of curiosity what makes one think that Beastment will suddenly rank up? They have their own special rules that give them limted ranks anyway.

Heh, spirit of the game?

Herds are supposed to get a maximum of 2 ranks, but because of different rulings between the editions, they're stuck with the old one because the beastmen book hasn't been updated from "4 ranks" to "5 ranks" when it recites the rule.

Same goes for Khornate knights. Nowadays Frenzy affects steeds, but since the chaos book recites the old rulebook when reminding people that steeds dont get an additional attack in the 6th edition, they dont get one in 7th either, well, until their army book is updated of course.

In a perfect world, everything would update at once, according with the spirit of the game. But it is far from perfect and until then, some armies must suffer more than others. Ironically this tends to happen to the more "handicapped" armies :rolleyes:;)

Chicago Slim
07-11-2007, 21:27
Skyldig, it's worth noting that Beast Herds will rank up like any other skirmishers (which means they'll be in enough columns to exceed the frontage of their opponents, with as many ranks behind the first rank as needed), with two exceptions: First, if their opponent is less than 50 mm wide, the Herd will rank up with 4 columns. Second, they get up to two points of rank bonus, so long as they have at least 5 members in the second and third ranks of their unit.

This is probably what you meant, but it's not really what you wrote, so I wanted to be sure it was clear... beast herd always get rank bonuses when fighting opponents who are 75 mm wide or more (assuming they have enough models to fill their own back ranks). This can deprive them of rank bonuses when fighting single models, and when flank-charging small units, but usually they rank up (and get rank bonuses) exactly as they did under 6th ed.

Skyldig
08-11-2007, 11:23
Yes, thanks for the correction :)

Fulgrim's-Chosen
30-11-2007, 20:46
It's also worth noting that the Hordes of Chaos book talks SPECIFICALLY about Models with the Mark of Khorne...and says that THOSE models will not convey their Frenzy to the Steed they are riding.

This is important to note since it means that Khorne Knights on Horses don't get to have their Horse Frenzied too (stupidly enough).... BUT.... a Daemonic Legion Chariot of Khorne (crewed by Two Bloodletter Daemons) .... DOES have Frenzy affect all parts of the model.

This is because the rules for that Daemon Chariot state that "Bloodletters are affected by (the) Frenzy (special rule)."

As such...they get their Frenzy bonus attacks AND their Steeds (in this case Juggernauts of Khorne !) also get the bonus Frenzy attacks. This makes a 2-Juggernaut Chariot of Khorne the hardest hitting thing in the game since you get 2 attacks normally from each Juggernaut pulling it... add +1 to each of them from Frenzy... so that's 6 right there...... then add the 4 attacks (1 normal, plus 1 for the Frenzy so 2 per) from the Bloodletter Crewmen... and you have a Total of 10 !!! WS-5, STR-5 attacks from the Chariot....and that doesn't even factor in its D6+1 STR-5 Impact Hits on a Charge...:eek:


This whole thing is possible because Bloodletters don't LITERALLY have the Mark of Khorne as shown in the Hordes of Chaos book (IE-adding dispel dice, etc.) ...they simply are Frenzied as a natural part of being a Bloodletter.


---------------------

Interestingly though.....what do you guys think about a Daemonic Herald of Khorne...also from the Daemonic Legion Army.... who "can be given the Mark of their God"... for the points cost indicated and with the described effects for an Exalted Daemon (see the Hordes of Chaos book under Marks of the Dark Gods section).

You can mount the Daemonic Herald on a Juggernaut if you so choose. If you do...and if you have paid to give him the Mark of Khorne (obviously)...he clearly gets the +1 Bonus Frenzy attack...but would you deny his monstrous Juggernaut Steed the +1 attack bonus ....falling back on the "Well if Mortal Chaos Knights of Khorne can't get their horses to have +1 extra attack...." line of reasoning ?

OR...would you say that the Herald would get his +1 attack (4 total then) and his mounted Juggernaut would also get a +1 attack (3 total then) ? ?

I guess in either case the Herald on Juggernaut is a very hard-hitting unit, but the extra attack is always helpful...so what is your thinking on this ?

the12thronin
30-11-2007, 21:22
When do horses ever get a Mark of Khorne? :) I see the daemon mounts having it since they are Khornate daemons. Not so with the horses.

To the second point, I'm not sure about the Jug since I do not have my book at the moment. If the Jug has the mark or is frenzied, then yep. Otherwise by the rules it wouldn't since the herald follows the same rules. Chalk that one up to three different rulebooks and two versions of the game. :)

*edit*
From looking at the stats of the daemonic mounts, the Jug having 3 attacks looks like it already has the extra attack allotted to it since all the undivided and Slannesh mounts only have 2 and the Disc has 1.

Briohmar
02-12-2007, 10:50
A nice loophole to the frenzy thing is Slaaneshi Knights who become frenzied due to the Slaanesh Spell. They become way better than Khorne then, especially since the mounts get the extra attack (which is at WS4 S4 by the way.) Combine with Rapturous standard and its quite nice (or nasty depending on your mind set.)

Forbiddenknowledge
03-12-2007, 15:19
With regards to Number 3, IIRC the wording for it specifically states that you hit on 6's regardless of any bonus, or magic item. Therefore, 90% of the time, it won't be a problem - netlings wins out (only in challenge, remember).

For the odd occasion where something says "hits on a 2+ regardless" I would say dice for it.