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RavenMorpheus
06-11-2007, 01:57
Ok so I just had a look at the xmas gift guide we in the UK got as a freebie with this months WD.

And on the page with the army cases there is a line that says something along the lines of "perfect for all your toy soldiers".

Since when did GW sell "toy soldiers"? :wtf:

I've always thought they were miniature figures, "toy soldiers" are what 5 year olds play with.

Is this a sign of who GW are really aiming the game at these days, 5 year olds?

The Dude
06-11-2007, 02:19
I don't want to sound like I actually care, but that really is a poor marketing strategy. It will indeed alienate those hobbyists who abhor the "toy soldiers" label.

Cap'n Facebeard
06-11-2007, 04:07
Man, let it go. We're nerds. Embrace it.

RavenMorpheus
06-11-2007, 04:18
Well I would let it go if the difference of the GW hobby was that "toy soldiers" are what the even more nerdy historical gamers play with or the 5 year olds with their tacky plastic army men and we play with the slightly less nerdy "miniatures".

I think GW really needs to work out who it's aiming such copy at. Maybe we should have multiple versions of WD and it's associated leaflets, one for the LotR fans, one for the 5 year olds and one for the rest of us.

Hellebore
06-11-2007, 04:25
Every talk I went to from GW studio staff at Games Day had them using the term 'Toy Soldiers' (Gordon Davidson and Gav Thorpe I believe) and I think Jervis uses the term in his standard bearer articles.

They use it a lot, perhaps because they don't care to make it sound more impressive than it is...

Hellebore

The Dude
06-11-2007, 04:28
Well I would let it go if the difference of the GW hobby was that "toy soldiers" are what the even more nerdy historical gamers play with or the 5 year olds with their tacky plastic army men and we play with the slightly less nerdy "miniatures".

This is what I was talking about. By using the word "toy" you feel belittled and ashamed of your hobby.

Replace the word "toy" with, say "replica" or "miniature" or even "finely crafted scale representations of fantasy/sci-fi" and you wouldn't have a problem, would you?

It's people with this attitude who Games Workshop risk driving away by using this terminology outside the context of a light hearted Standard Bearer article where it's is clearly used as self depreciating comedy.

I don't really care, so long as they don't call them Dolls :p.

Edit: Hellebore's got the idea. Those of us who are secure in ourselves don't need to "butch" it up and can handle calling them what they are. Toys.

RavenMorpheus
06-11-2007, 04:32
This is what I was talking about. By using the word "toy" you feel belittled and ashamed of your hobby.

Replace the word "toy" with, say "replica" or "miniature" or even "finely crafted scale representations of fantasy/sci-fi" and you wouldn't have a problem, would you?

It's people with this attitude who Games Workshop risk driving away by using this terminology outside the context of a light hearted Standard Bearer article where it's is clearly used as self depreciating comedy.

Agreed, mostly...

In my experience everytime anyone hears the phrase "toy soldier" it screams nerdy historical gaming to them and quite frankly I don't think that helps to recruit new people into the hobby.




I don't really care, so long as they don't call them Dolls :p.


Action figures :p

The Dude
06-11-2007, 04:35
In my experience everytime anyone hears the phrase "toy soldier" it screams nerdy historical gaming to them and quite frankly I don't think that helps to recruit new people into the hobby.

But what makes historical games any more "Nerdy" than GW games?

RavenMorpheus
06-11-2007, 04:41
But what makes historical games any more "Nerdy" than GW games?

Got me there, can't actually describe it at the mo but I'll have a go anyway...

I guess it's the fact that historical gaming is traditionally perceived to be for the older gamer whereas the GW hobby seems to be perceived as more for the younger gamer.

But when you start saying "toy soldiers" it conjures up images of Arnold Rimmer and his army of napoleonic soldiers (or whatever they were), you see a child playing with them like any child does with a toy, not using them in the way we in the GW hobby do.

Obviously I'm only going by the stereotypes as perceived by the majority of the public but then if the majority of the public didn't perceive gamers in the way they do the stereotypes wouldn't exist...

The Dude
06-11-2007, 05:03
Got me there, can't actually describe it at the mo but I'll have a go anyway...

I guess it's the fact that historical gaming is traditionally perceived to be for the older gamer whereas the GW hobby seems to be perceived as more for the younger gamer.

But when you start saying "toy soldiers" it conjures up images of Arnold Rimmer and his army of napoleonic soldiers (or whatever they were), you see a child playing with them like any child does with a toy, not using them in the way we in the GW hobby do.
Obviously I'm only going by the stereotypes as perceived by the majority of the public but then if the majority of the public didn't perceive gamers in the way they do the stereotypes wouldn't exist...

Okay, first off, I'm not trying to be mean here. I mean the fiollowing with the greatest respect, and of course I have absolutely NO insight into your personality beyond what appears on this forum. However...

This really sounds a bit like you trying to separate yourself from the stereotype. You are in fact splitting the stereotype into what you perceive as the good bit that you fit into, (younger GW gamers) and the bad bit that people are “really” talking about when they make those comments (older historical gamers).

In the end, we will and do receive our fair share of the criticism heaped on all gamers, be they historical, Fantasy / sci-fi, or role playing. If people could accept that and not care, as I have learned to do, It wouldn’t really matter that much.

The very fact that many of the devs use the term “toy soldiers” says to me that they are trying to teach gamers not to take the whole thing too seriously. They’re toys. Toys are for having fun with. Go have fun ;)

Nephilim of Sin
06-11-2007, 05:08
I am actually with RavenMorpheus on this one here. When I see "toy soldier" I think first 1; Historical and 2; Lil' green army men. The things we can buy a boatload of for a dollar. The things that most kids destroyed while playing with. I can see the horror now of an eight year old kid getting a baneblade for Christmas and loading it up with firecrackers.

I guess the thing is I do not see "toy" anywhere there. I don't call a chess piece my "toy" king, no matter how detailed it is (and I still have me some, ahem, action figures too!). It does seem to belittle the hobby a bit. Those remote car models? Toys. The smaller car models? Models or minis. RC Airplane kits? Toys. Smaller scale, non-functioning kits? Models. That is one major reason why I am put off by prepaints; they resemble toys. I honestly can see how this could give people the wrong impression about the hobby, and make it seem more geared towards a younger crowd. On that note, when did things change? I know here in the states there were warning labels saying "Not intended for Children under the age of 12".

mistformsquirrel
06-11-2007, 05:56
I actually like the "Toy Soldiers" label; I'll explain why though.

The thing is, I see some people getting *WAY* too worked up over this hobby. I don't mean merely 'passionate' about it; I think the majority of us who would go as far as to go to an internet website and post endlessly about it are nothing if not at least passionate about our hobby...

But just like the Star Wars nerds that think they can, in fact, use the Force - there are some people who refuse to understand what Warhammer is.

Warhammer is a game. A game with a cool backstory, detailed miniatures, and a whole lot of creativity applied by the player - but a game nonetheless.

I have actually seen people verbally battered because they "Go against everything Warhammer stands for" - note: I'm not even speaking on my pet topic of female Marines either; I'm just speaking in-general.

I think "Toy Soldiers" as a label reminds us - this is not something to take as holy writ, this is not something that should own your life and your perceptions on the world - its a game with cool miniatures; but distilled to its essence, it really is nothing but playing toy soldiers. The toys are just more elaborate and expensive.

This is of course my opinion on the matter, and I can understand someone feeling that its a jab at their own credibility; but at least for myself, I see it primarily as a way of making sure people realize it is not the be-all-end-all of life; its just a fun thing to do.

The pestilent 1
06-11-2007, 10:50
I don't want to sound like I actually care, but that really is a poor marketing strategy. It will indeed alienate those hobbyists who abhor the "toy soldiers" label.

So RavenMorpheus then?

Cos. well. I'm a geek and I damn well play with my toy soldiers.

Ofaloaf
06-11-2007, 11:19
Hey, I've been known to just grab a couple of IG soldiers and make explosion sounds with my mouth as I make then fight each other. It's just as fun as determining the points value of a just-defeated squad of grots!

Hywel
06-11-2007, 11:20
Yes, let's not beat around the bush here - we do play with toy soldiers.

There's no need to be embarrased by it; I'm actually quite proud that I still have a remnant of my childhood to indulge in. Most people can see there is a degree of artistry and intelligence involved in the hobby, "a rose by any other name" if you will.

Lord Fatwa
06-11-2007, 11:33
I'm a geek and I damn well play with my toy soldiers.

This...


Hey, I've been known to just grab a couple of IG soldiers and make explosion sounds with my mouth as I make then fight each other.

And this...


I'm actually quite proud that I still have a remnant of my childhood to indulge in.

And this...

I work at an indie retailer that sells GW products, and I find the easiest way to explain it to people who have no idea what they are is to describe it as "Grown up toy soldiers". Because this is exactly what it is.

What Games Workshop sells is essentially all the games we played when we were little, with fake cardboard guns or action figures or whatever, just with a higher production standard, because now we've got proper objective rules instead of cries of "I shot you first!", and a proper, well-constructed narrative in place of "Let's kill all the baddies". And that is a core part of the reason why we enjoy it so much. It's escapism, just on a tabletop with miniatures rather than inside my killersweet couch-cushion base... ;)

schoolcormorant
06-11-2007, 12:06
erm.. Is this something to really worry about? Call them patty if it makes you happy :)

SC

de Selby
06-11-2007, 12:26
I'd much rather tell people I collect toy soldiers, then expand about how I actually collect, build, convert and paint armies of sci-fi warriors, aliens and giant robots, than tell people I am a warhammer 40 000 miniature figurine collector only for them to say "wot, toy soldiers?"

The pestilent 1
06-11-2007, 12:42
But just like the Star Wars nerds that think they can, in fact, use the Force - there are some people who refuse to understand what Warhammer is.


I'd kill to be able to use the Force / Warp.
... and I'd kill if I could use the Force / Warp.

Probably something Freudian there.

Bombot
06-11-2007, 14:00
I'd much rather tell people I collect toy soldiers, then expand about how I actually collect, build, convert and paint armies of sci-fi warriors, aliens and giant robots, than tell people I am a warhammer 40 000 miniature figurine collector only for them to say "wot, toy soldiers?"

Quite. Taking it too seriously only makes it worse.

I guess to the pure painters the figures don't really represent toy soldiers, but they do to anyone who actually games with them.

snurl
06-11-2007, 16:14
I guess to the pure painters the figures don't really represent toy soldiers, but they do to anyone who actually games with them.

Bingo! That sums it all up right there.

Stella Cadente
06-11-2007, 16:53
does it matter what there called?

we know were geeks with no friends or life
everyone else knows were geeks with no friends or life
so it makes no difference what there called

Gen.Steiner
06-11-2007, 17:57
Games workshop have always sold toy soldiers! :p

They're toys, to have fun with, and play with, and they are representations of soldiers.

Therefore, they are toy soldiers! :D

Crube
06-11-2007, 18:32
GW have always marketed high quality miniature models (or whatever). What they have always sold are toy soldiers. Most GW staff refer to them as such.

I have always collected and painted toy soldiers ;)

Zink
06-11-2007, 18:33
My friends call all our toys "toys". My motorbike was a fun toy, my first pickup too. Some people think that's wierd but in our opinion anything that you play with is a toy. Some people seem to feel the need to express things as seriously as possible as if to mask the fact they get pleasure out of it. Relax, enjoy life and play with all the toys of all varieties that you can. You be happier than worrying about exact meanings.

Bombot
06-11-2007, 19:06
Some people think that's wierd but in our opinion anything that you play with is a toy.

With apologies to any female gamers but..."boys and their toys", as they say. The expression doesn't stop holding true when you hit 18!

RavenMorpheus
06-11-2007, 19:15
does it matter what there called?

we know were geeks with no friends or life
everyone else knows were geeks with no friends or life
so it makes no difference what there called

Speaking about only yourself I hope :D

*takes "I must make sense for a change pill"*

I'd rather refer to the hobby as a glorified version of chess that we make our own pieces for, and I frequently do when explaining it to my mates, it sums it up better than "toy soldiers" and they don't go "u wot, you play with toy soldiers".

Toy Soldiers iirc involves no rules, no tactical thoughts just bashing two pieces of plastic together and making ridiculous sounds. And yes we've all done it but really, advertising the hobby as "toy soldiers" just makes the perception of the hobby by the general public even worse imo

The Guy
06-11-2007, 19:37
IMO toy soldier sounds just as nerdy as miniature. It's just that miniature makes it sound more professional.
And anyway I define toys as something that can be moved without breaking. Like action man :p

RavenMorpheus
06-11-2007, 19:43
IMO toy soldier sounds just as nerdy as miniature. It's just that miniature makes it sound more professional.
And anyway I define toys as something that can be moved without breaking. Like action man :p

Action Man (GI Joe for those of us in the US) breaks if you drop him out of a 4th story window and the parachute doesn't open, I learnt the hard way that Action Man is not Superman and cannot fly :D

When I was 10 anyway (and now I'm 30) :(

Point there being is that at the age of 10 you don't mind playing with toy soldiers or Action Man, but when your getting on a bit like I am you'd like to think you can enjoy a hobby without the company marketing it making the ridicule even worse by calling it something like "toy soldiers" thus implying your involved in a hobby primarily aimed at 10 year olds or 5 year olds as I said in my OP when it's really open to everyone of all ages.

Crazy Harborc
06-11-2007, 20:59
I got over my feelings of insecurity LONG ago. Considering who some of the people of the 20th/21st Century were who were wargamers...They played with toy soldiers, why not me?

If it gives you a warm glow to call them replicas, military miniatures, items used for tactical studies....Hey, that is just fine.;)

der_lex
06-11-2007, 21:31
Agreed. If you're over 16 and still worried about your image, you're doing something wrong. And if you have to make an effort to rationalize your hobbies to your friends, you simply need better friends. :D

nurgle_boy
06-11-2007, 22:08
I often refer to the hobby as any of the following-
'Toy soldiers'- "why arent you coming out tonight?" "no cash, spent it all on toy soldiers"
'New toys'- "yay! money! that means new toys for me!" or refering to them as "my toys"

I also describe the gaming as 'Chess with dice'- "you mean theres a game for all of this, how does that work?" "oh, basically you need to think chess with dice, but more complicated"

In all honesty, they are toys for older people in the same way that lonely old women horde stuffed toys. I dont care what it is called to be honest...

Gaebriel
06-11-2007, 23:01
I remember two years ago GW wrote in their Corporate brochure they "produce the best toy soldiers in the world" - Looking at the current brochure, they replaced the toy with model (soldier).

But in essence they are toy soldiers - as much as we want to think of them any other way, I think any model that is not designed for display only is a toy - and even those (usually 54mm+) display models are not entirely adult either... But well, model railways is collecting toys as well, though a bit closer to general acceptance - more like a quirk than a social stigma. GW didn't help by plastifying it's range, as pewter casting was a good deal more adult than army men a couple of decades ago (though still not as accepted as model railways, methinks)...


...
In my experience everytime anyone hears the phrase "toy soldier" it screams nerdy historical gaming to them and quite frankly I don't think that helps to recruit new people into the hobby.
...
Technically I'd rather know a disturbing number of details about the development of Roman armies between the 6th and the 1st Century BC than the same disturbing number of details about the three expansion spheres of the fictional Tau Empire - has a lot of more real world application as well...

Honestly, both is geeky, as geeky seems to be defined by having a disturbing insight into something aside the mainstream.

Zink
07-11-2007, 00:04
Technically I'd rather know a disturbing number of details about the development of Roman armies between the 6th and the 1st Century BC than the same disturbing number of details about the three expansion spheres of the fictional Tau Empire - has a lot of more real world application as well...

Honestly, both is geeky, as geeky seems to be defined by having a disturbing insight into something aside the mainstream.

I think I have to agree with this. Geeky is knowing way too many details about fictional settings. Cultured is knowing way too many deatils about historical settings;) Where do I fall? I remember coming out of the theater with my friends after watching fellowship of the rings and we were saying,"good show but that's not how it really happened!":rolleyes:

I'm a 33 year old father of 2 and now my kids are giving me a reason to play with any many of toys and not feel embarassed about it. Not that I gave a damn in the first place. My 21 year old nephew(jock extrodanairre) said "cool now I can buy your kids cool toys and play with them myself".

The Dude
07-11-2007, 01:11
So RavenMorpheus then?

I didn't say nuffink! ;)

RavenMorpheus
07-11-2007, 01:23
So RavenMorpheus then?I didn't say nuffink! ;)

Ha missed that first time round :p, and no it will not alienate me, but like I said previously I don't think it helps attract new gamers either.


This is what I was talking about. By using the word "toy" you feel belittled and ashamed of your hobby.

Again no, I don't feel belittled or ashamed but I do feel that by calling the models "toy soldiers" GW themselves are belittling the hobby itself.

devolutionary
07-11-2007, 01:28
I'm all about the Man Barbies. I don't see the issue here, they're toys and they're soldiers. No worries eh?

Dren Krelar
07-11-2007, 02:24
The truth is they somewhere between toys and models. Toys are something you play with and have fun with. Models are meant to be put together and then sit on a shelf and look impressive.

I tend to descibe my hobby to my friends as buiding and painting models for a sci-fi game that I play. I do get some wierd looks now and then, but since most of my friends are sci-fi geeks like me they really don't have a problem with the fact that I "play with toy soldiers". But that is usually because I don't have a problem with any of their geeky interests like making costumes of comic book characters to wear to conventions or playing magic or D&D or any of a dozen other things they do that are equally nerdy.

The Dude
07-11-2007, 02:29
Ha missed that first time round :p, and no it will not alienate me, but like I said previously I don't think it helps attract new gamers either.

Having actually seen the publication in question myself now (stupid Australian release dates ;)), I would argue that the document in question isn’t intended to attract new gamers. It’s for little jimmy to give to mum with big red circles around stuff.


Again no, I don't feel belittled or ashamed but I do feel that by calling the models "toy soldiers" GW themselves are belittling the hobby itself.

I suppose this goes back to the point many people are making that if you feel the term “toy soldiers” belittles either yourself or the hobby in general, you may possibly be taking the hobby a bit too seriously.

I get your point about chess pieces, and if people want to call their miniatures “game pieces”, that’s cool with me, but you shouldn’t feel the term “toy soldiers” used in the context of what I perceive as a parent oriented gift ideas brochure in any way belittles the hobby as a whole.

Adept
07-11-2007, 05:17
Ok so I just had a look at the xmas gift guide we in the UK got as a freebie with this months WD.

And on the page with the army cases there is a line that says something along the lines of "perfect for all your toy soldiers".

Since when did GW sell "toy soldiers"? :wtf:

It's a humorous tongue-in-cheek jab at ourselves. We can call our figs whatever we want, but at the end of the day they really are just toy soldiers. It's like a rifle case company adding the line 'perfect for all your pea shooters!'

If the jibe offends, then perhaps you are taking your hobby too seriously.

Gen.Steiner
07-11-2007, 07:18
Toy Soldiers iirc involves no rules, no tactical thoughts just bashing two pieces of plastic together and making ridiculous sounds.

Oi! That's not true at all. I played wargames with Lego ironclads aged 3, and created a super-basic rules set for my TIMPO plastic napoleonics aged 5 (toss a coin per figure, if it's heads then they've hit and the immediately opposite (or nearest) enemy figure is killed)... both of those, for example, are toy soldier games.

Wargaming is a GAME, which is another word for a TOY, and as such the pieces we use are TOY SOLDIERS. :p You can dress it up however you like, but at the end of the monkey, a 6mm high Space Marine or a 42mm tall Welsh Guardsman share one thing in common - they're both toy soldiers.

Sir_Lunchalot
07-11-2007, 16:07
I'm with the General. We're geeks, who play a game with toy soldiers. Yes we build and paint our own models, occasionally with a great degree of skill and talent, granted, but inthe end they are toys.

I mean really what seems worse. A grown man who is still able to play a game, or a grown man who is afraid to admit he plays a game and calls his toys "finely crafted hand painted miniatures of various sci-fi and fantasy soldiers"?

Zink
07-11-2007, 18:19
I like that last statement and think it's worth repeating! Consider yourself sigged.

Gen.Steiner
07-11-2007, 20:13
I mean really what seems worse. A grown man who is still able to play a game, or a grown man who is afraid to admit he plays a game and calls his toys "finely crafted hand painted miniatures of various sci-fi and fantasy soldiers"?

Precisely! I'm quite happy to refer to my beautifully sculpted, well painted, miniature figurines as toy soldiers, because that's what I use them for. If they just sat on a shelf and looked pretty then they'd be model soldiers. As is... toys! :D

Zink
07-11-2007, 22:33
OK where's my sig? Anybody care to explain to me why it isn't showing up? Or explain to the technically challenged how to properly add a signature.

Mad Doc Grotsnik
07-11-2007, 22:53
This is what I was talking about. By using the word "toy" you feel belittled and ashamed of your hobby.

.

I don't.

Of course, I'd feel silly calling them 'Small Scale Military Option Exploration Facsimiles'

:p

Crazy Harborc
08-11-2007, 01:50
We(I) play with toy soldiers. Then there are the stamp/coin collectors (where are they when I need a stamp or money for a vending machine). Then there's the model railroaders with their basements/spare rooms filled with plastic, wood and metal toys that get knocked onto the floor....parts flying ALL over the floor.:angel: Chess players slapping the heck out of egg timers as they tip over the checkerboards full of fancy checkers called chess pieces.

Oh well, my point is.......um...??...oh yeah...men's toys cost A LOT more than boys toys (accept when they are made by GW:evilgrin:).

Well, time to paint some HEs, spider riders and late roman cavalry. I haff to be very, very carrful wha' gets paint'd wha'!!:eek:

Hellebore
08-11-2007, 02:05
All we are getting into here is the "sanitation engineer" syndrome - creating overly elaborate titles for things because we are insecure about what we REALLY do.

Funnily enough changing words doesn't change truth, no matter how hard you believe it will.

hellebore

The Dude
08-11-2007, 02:23
All we are getting into here is the "sanitation engineer" syndrome - creating overly elaborate titles for things because we are insecure about what we REALLY do.

Funnily enough changing words doesn't change truth, no matter how hard you believe it will.

Quoted for truth.

My job title is "E-Communications Coordinator", and yet my job is essentailly "Website guy and general dogsbody".

Gen.Steiner
08-11-2007, 10:29
My job title is "E-Communications Coordinator".

That seems far too simple to me. How about Modern Distance-Related Electronic Solutions Engineering Consultant?

wingedserpant
08-11-2007, 10:57
Man, let it go. We're nerds. Embrace it.

But we are grown up nerds.

I saw the beginner box sets in a Toymaster store.

I feel dirty like I have a STD or baby blood on my face...

Oh wait I don't.

Gae'Mot
08-11-2007, 13:24
Why be offended by "toy soldiers"?
Warhammer is still a game and the role of the miniatures are still, well... being soldiers.

But then again, we can go into discussion about chesspieces being toys...

The Dude
09-11-2007, 00:04
That seems far too simple to me. How about Modern Distance-Related Electronic Solutions Engineering Consultant?

No that won't work. Putting the word "Engineering" in there would imply they need to pay me more than they do, which is also why I'm a "Coodinator" and not a "Manager" :p

Gen.Steiner
09-11-2007, 09:45
No that won't work. Putting the word "Engineering" in there would imply they need to pay me more than they do, which is also why I'm a "Coodinator" and not a "Manager" :p

Ah, well, in that case... Modern Distance-Related Electronic Solutions Co-ordination Consultant? ;)

Easy E
09-11-2007, 15:01
I don't really care, so long as they don't call them Dolls :p.

I was just at a wine dinner where we all laughed about my penchant for "war dolls".

The Dude
10-11-2007, 23:44
Ah, well, in that case... Modern Distance-Related Electronic Solutions Co-ordination Consultant? ;)

No, consultants get paid even more than engineers :p

Gen.Steiner
11-11-2007, 01:01
No, consultants get paid even more than engineers :p

Hm! A conundrum indeed. Modern Distance-Related Electronic Solutions Co-ordination Lackey, perhaps?

bertcom1
11-11-2007, 01:03
Facilitator might be another good one.

also, relevance to original topic, toys aren't just for children. Adult toys exist.

An adult's toy car is different from a child's toy car, for example.

Adult orientated toy soldiers would therefore also be different from child orientated toy soldiers.

Agrip. Varenus Denter
11-11-2007, 10:21
Toy soldiers = miniature figures, just like dolls = 12" action figures and funny books = comics. We're geeks - deal with it. :)

Easy E
11-11-2007, 11:55
Adult toys exist.

Not in Alabama. They're against the law last I heard.