PDA

View Full Version : Space Marine height?



BigEaZyE
06-11-2007, 02:45
Okay... a couple times reading the various forums on here I've seen most people refer to space marines as being about 7 feet tall...

I'm interested in knowing where people get that height, as I distinctly remember reading from a number of GW background sources that they are close to 3 metres in height... which is closer to 10 feet... I always put them at about 9-9 1/2...


Can anyone clear that up?

Noserenda
06-11-2007, 02:56
I run with roughly 7ft naked cruising to 8ft Fully kitted.

schoon
06-11-2007, 04:34
Most reasonable sources put Space Marines at roughly 7.5 feet (2.5 meters) in height, and the Primarchs at 8-9-ish (since it varied for each one...)

Nazguire
06-11-2007, 04:53
Most reasonable sources put Space Marines at roughly 7.5 feet (2.5 meters) in height, and the Primarchs at 8-9-ish (since it varied for each one...)

Unless you were Magnus who was so tall he shat albatross. I'd put Magnus at probably close to ten foot. Same with Mortarion, just obviously not as thick or heavily muscled as Magnus.

Kage2020
06-11-2007, 04:55
I don't know about reasonable, since that's a complete judgement call, but I personally put Marines at about 7'3"-7'4". In their armour? 8'. Jes Goodwin's scaled image was too appealing, despite the fact that he missed out 1'. ;)

As to Primarchs, since they were mentioned? I'd put them at just a bit taller than Marines. None of this 9-10' tall business. Again, though, it's a personal thing.

Kage

Nazguire
06-11-2007, 04:57
I don't know about reasonable, since that's a complete judgement call, but I personally put Marines at about 7'3"-7'4". In their armour? 8'. Jes Goodwin's scaled image was too appealing, despite the fact that he missed out 1'. ;)

Kage

8 feet tall Marines makes no sense, apart from cool factor. I know the background supports it but apart from making them super tough and strong (only with the additional organs and implants of course, otherwise they wouldn't live past 40) it just makes them a mega jumbo target on the battlefield.:eyebrows:

Argastes
06-11-2007, 05:26
Yeah, eight or nine foot Marines are completely ludicrous. They wouldn't be able to fit into buildings or vehicles. Seven to seven and a half feet is more like it. The armor probably wouldn't add more than three inches of height, either. All it's going to add is the thickness of the helmet, and the thickness of the soles of the boots. Since Marines aren't walking around in platform shoes, and their helmets seem to conform fairly closely to their head shape (no high crests, etc.), it seems a little unreasonable to say that they'd be seven feet naked but eight feet in their armor. Although I suppose if you measured to the top of the backpack unit, that might add a few more inches.

I've also never heard this "close to three meters tall" thing in any GW fluff, and I'm a pretty avid reader of fluff from 2nd Edition to the current day. Maybe it comes from BL books, which I generally don't read... if that's the case, the OP should be advised that many of the BL authors don't bother to think it through before ascribing ridiculously oversized proportions to whatever it is they're describing. Maybe they don't realize just how huge "only" 7 feet is, especially on someone with a Marine's physique; who knows. Personally, I think it betrays a childish, or maybe almost fetishistic, over-enthusiasm for hugeness; I think the "huger = more uber" mentality is kind of silly and immature. 7 feet is plenty huge enough, and if you go much bigger, you start to run into problems reconciling that immense size with some other things the fluff tells us about Marines and their equipment, their ability to fit through doors, and so on.

Nazguire
06-11-2007, 05:33
Yeah, eight or nine foot Marines are completely ludicrous. They wouldn't be able to fit into buildings or vehicles. Seven to seven and a half feet is more like it. The armor probably wouldn't add more than three inches of height, either. All it's going to add is the thickness of the helmet, and the thickness of the soles of the boots. Since Marines aren't walking around in platform shoes, and their helmets seem to conform fairly closely to their head shape (no high crests, etc.), it seems a little unreasonable to say that they'd be seven feet naked but eight feet in their armor. Although I suppose if you measured to the top of the backpack unit, that might add a few more inches.

I've also never heard this "close to three meters tall" thing in any GW fluff, and I'm a pretty avid reader of fluff from 2nd Edition to the current day. Maybe it comes from BL books, which I generally don't read... if that's the case, the OP should be advised that many of the BL authors don't bother to think it through before ascribing ridiculously oversized proportions to whatever it is they're describing. Maybe they don't realize just how huge "only" 7 feet is, especially on someone with a Marine's physique; who knows. Personally, I think it betrays a childish, or maybe almost fetishistic, over-enthusiasm for hugeness; I think the "huger = more uber" mentality is kind of silly and immature. 7 feet is plenty huge enough, and if you go much bigger, you start to run into problems reconciling that immense size with some other things the fluff tells us about Marines and their equipment, their ability to fit through doors, and so on.

Marines don't have a problem with doors.:p

Kage2020
06-11-2007, 05:47
8 feet tall Marines makes no sense, apart from cool factor.
How much in the 40k universe makes sense beyond "Rule of Cool"?


...it just makes them a mega jumbo target on the battlefield.:eyebrows:
Let's just face it, the ridiculously sized swords would do that even if the Marines didn't show up?

Kage

Hive Mind 33
06-11-2007, 07:14
the place i play at has one of the life sized space marines I think its about 7.5-8 foot tall range.

Imperialis_Dominatus
06-11-2007, 07:51
Marines don't have a problem with doors.:p

To paraphrase a joke about the mighty CN:

"Marines have no doors in their Chapter Keeps, just walls that they walk through."

Deadnight
06-11-2007, 12:33
average marine is 7ft tall...

some with be 7 foot 4, and some will be 6 foot 6....

in and around 7ft ,and add a few inches for the armour but unless he's wearing high heels or disco stu's boots, he ain't gonna be 8 foot tall from his armour!

Spoik
06-11-2007, 12:46
Gah!

Space marines are about 7' tall.

They have always been about 7' tall.

Claims to the contrary tend to be based on the rather bizarre phenomenon of 'height creep' that has been affecting descriptions of marines for years.

It's hard to get a good idea of how a marine compares to a man in 28mm scale because the proportions are, for various reasons, not very accurate. Instead, look at Jes Goodwin's scale drawing, as mentioned, or the Artemis model in the Inquisitor range, which was actually scaled down from it. That gives a great idea of how big a marine is next to a man, and 7' tall is plenty.

Making them any bigger is just silly. I mean, how much would a 9' marine weigh?

Supremearchmarshal
06-11-2007, 12:47
7ft tall on average, though it would also depend on their geneseed and probably their homeworld. A tall marine in terminator armour could be 8ft tall, though.

Primarchs are much taller - for example, Sanguinius wrestled a Bloodthirster Lord and broke its back on his knee, suggesting he was at least 10ft tall.

Sergeant Uriel Ventris
06-11-2007, 13:00
7ft tall on average, though it would also depend on their geneseed and probably their homeworld. A tall marine in terminator armour could be 8ft tall, though.

Primarchs are much taller - for example, Sanguinius wrestled a Bloodthirster Lord and broke its back on his knee, suggesting he was at least 10ft tall.

Maybe it was a stunty Bloodthirster. Why would you assume that Bloodthirsters all are the same height?

TheLionReturns
06-11-2007, 13:12
There often seems to be an attempt to avoid definitive statements such as specific heights in the fluff. Giving general descriptions such as very large help keep a certain mythical/legendary feel to the universe rather than something more bland and factual IMHO. Definitive statements stop our natural tendency to magnify and exaggerate to make the subject matter cooler/more impressive. Also the more specific you get the more open you are to people saying "but how would they?/that can't work etc". That said I have always worked on the principle that a man comes up to a Space Marines shoulder, and a Space Marine comes up to a Primarchs shoulder. Of course there was great variation in the size and shape of the Primarchs so this is a very general statement. Thinking of it like this is all I need to form an adequate mental picture.

Spacewolves vs Thousandsons
06-11-2007, 16:08
id have to agree with the 2.5 meters as the general height for a marine, as to in armor u are talking standard marine armor and not terinator class right cause terminator armor probably adds at least 1/2 a foot to the marines height over that of normal armor

Permanganate
06-11-2007, 16:38
There's a very good drawing of a Space Marine on p49 of Imperial Armor V3: The Taros Campaign. He's drawn more 'realistically' than normal, being noticeably tall but without the bulk that usually goes with it on SM models. Once you've thought about it, all your SMs will look chubby. They've been driving around in their Rhinos too much. Save 50 points and make them double-time it.


id have to agree with the 2.5 meters as the general height for a marine...

That's very tall; ~8.2ft (and the average male height today is 6.0ft at the most even in First World countries!). By that height, it's becoming a disadvantage instead of a advantage, because of the cube-square rule; your limbs are flimsier, you have a lot more area to armor and the added weight makes the problem even worse, etc.

Rirekon
06-11-2007, 16:47
I like the comments about 8' marines being impractical on the battlefield, you think Titans are practical? There's a reason tanks are designed to have as low a profile as possible ;)

Rule of Cool, make 'em as tall as you want and run with it :D

Argastes
06-11-2007, 16:47
That's very tall; ~8.2ft (and the average male height today is 6.0ft at the most even in First World countries!). By that height, it's becoming a disadvantage instead of a advantage, because of the cube-square rule; your limbs are flimsier, you have a lot more area to armor and the added weight makes the problem even worse, etc.

Good point. When you start pushing a Marine's height up too much, his physical proportions have to change in strange ways; there's a reason an elephants legs are thicker in proportion to it's body than an insects legs are.

Revlid
06-11-2007, 16:52
Without armour, a Human comes up to a Space Marine's shoulder, and a Space Marine comes up to a Primarch's shoulder. Unless that Primarch is Magnus.

Burnthem
06-11-2007, 17:34
Does anyone have a link to the aforementioned pic of the Marine in the IA: Taros book?

Cheers :)

Askari
06-11-2007, 17:39
I always thought Space Marines were in the 7'0-7'6 range, brining them up to 7'6-8'0 in full Power Armour w/ backpack.

Primarchs, of course, varied, I assume most were just slightly taller than Space Marines, but the likes of Magnus, in the images, seems to stand at nearly twice the height of Terminators, hence perhaps 10-12ft tall.

Kage2020
06-11-2007, 23:44
I've just realised that I was suggesting that armour adds over half-a-foot. Yowzers. Think, Kage, think! ;)


Instead, look at Jes Goodwin's scale drawing...
Aye, but he consciously put that "8'" there. Does that mean he cannot count, or something else?


Making them any bigger is just silly. I mean, how much would a 9' marine weigh?
Depends on whether you correct for "heroic proportions," as some people do. (You know that I'm talking about you, Phil. ;))

Seriously, though, and again, this is the 40k universe. Silly, out of whack imagery kind of comes with the territory.

Erm, not that I believe it, though. :D

Kage

OnlyInDeath
06-11-2007, 23:56
7 feet tall doesn't seem large enough to fit the "OMGZORZ!" reaction most normal people seem to have upon seeing Marines.

When I see a person who is 7 ft tall, I think "Man, he is tall!" but it doesn't all the sudden put me in complete awe of the person.

Then again, your average Space Marine probably is about as thick as a bear, and kitted up with the best armor and weapons the imperium can provide.

Imperialis_Dominatus
07-11-2007, 00:10
7 feet tall doesn't seem large enough to fit the "OMGZORZ!" reaction most normal people seem to have upon seeing Marines.

When I see a person who is 7 ft tall, I think "Man, he is tall!" but it doesn't all the sudden put me in complete awe of the person.

Then again, your average Space Marine probably is about as thick as a bear, and kitted up with the best armor and weapons the imperium can provide.

Your last paragraph says it all. A Space Marine is not just tall, he's big. Think Barrett from FF7 or something. Plus power armor, being essentially like wearing a tank, bulks his form out a bit. Then there's the Angels of Death mythos that surrounds them and accompanies them in the eyes of a regular human. 7' tall is fine, especially when you get that many big people together... I mean, imagine seeing a squad of those big mofos.

Argastes
07-11-2007, 00:19
7 feet tall doesn't seem large enough to fit the "OMGZORZ!" reaction most normal people seem to have upon seeing Marines.

When I see a person who is 7 ft tall, I think "Man, he is tall!" but it doesn't all the sudden put me in complete awe of the person.

Then again, your average Space Marine probably is about as thick as a bear, and kitted up with the best armor and weapons the imperium can provide.

I'm 6'3" and I've stood close to a few people who were 7' or a little taller, and I can safely say that they were shockingly tall. I dunno if I'd say I was "in complete awe" of them, but they really were astonishingly big. I don't think simply saying "Man, he is tall" really does a 7'+ person justice.

Philip S
07-11-2007, 01:44
I think marine are about 7'6" once they complete scout training.

However I do not think it is their size (height and mass) that makes them so very intimidating to regular humans in 40k, or their armour, or weapons. It their personalities, the 'legal' power, their barely controlled pscho 'give us a reason to shoot you in the face **** and your whole family!' vibe, their good links with the big players in the Imperium, and the fact they can not only kill your and everyone you know, but they could actually destroy your whole planet and everyone on it.

Reason enough to be polite.

Oh, and they're 7'6", dressed in super advanced power armour, wielding weapons that similar to a super Mk 19 automatic grenade launcher (only rocket) are super inhuman strong and can shrug of stub gun shot to the face.

Come on. You want to get in the cage with that?

Philip

Argastes
07-11-2007, 05:39
their barely controlled pscho 'give us a reason to shoot you in the face **** and your whole family!' vibe.

:wtf: Maybe the Flesh Tearers, or Marines Malevolent....

I've seen similar statements on Warseer a lot and I just don't understand it. Where are people getting this idea that the average Marine is a barely-restrained maniac, or a psychopathic killing machine, or whatever? They're soldiers. Exceptionally well-disciplined soldiers.

OnlyInDeath
07-11-2007, 05:55
There is a real debate on the nature of the Space Marines. Ultimately they aren't "just soldiers", they are trained warrior-monks completely and wholly dedicated to the service of a Psychic dictator who has been incapacitated for one hundred centuries.

They may be well trained, but they will still kill you and everyone you know if they think it is what will best serve the Emperor.

Argastes
07-11-2007, 12:43
There is a real debate on the nature of the Space Marines. Ultimately they aren't "just soldiers", they are trained warrior-monks completely and wholly dedicated to the service of a Psychic dictator who has been incapacitated for one hundred centuries.

They may be well trained, but they will still kill you and everyone you know if they think it is what will best serve the Emperor.

Yeah I agree. What I disagree with is the suggestion that they're just itching for an excuse to do so. That they have a "give us a reason to shoot you in the face **** and your whole family" vibe. And furthermore, I disagree that "killing you and everyone you know" (assuming you are an Imperial citizen who isn't a Chaos cultist or armed rebel) would be a course of action that most Marines would generally think would best serve the Emperor in the first place. Massacre and pogrom against ordinary citizens are certainly tactics employed by the Imperium, but the Space Marines are usually not the ones who carry them out, and in fact often oppose them when they are employed by the Inquisition and similar groups.

Askari
07-11-2007, 13:07
I don't doubt that they are barely-restrained Psychopaths, especially after reading False Gods. But they wouldn't consciously just kill an Imperial Citizen for no real reason, it's just that if they were told to do so, they would rip them limb from limb =)

Philip S
07-11-2007, 13:26
Yeah I agree. What I disagree with is the suggestion that they're just itching for an excuse to do so. That they have a "give us a reason to shoot you in the face **** and your whole family" vibe. And furthermore, I disagree that "killing you and everyone you know" (assuming you are an Imperial citizen who isn't a Chaos cultist or armed rebel) would be a course of action that most Marines would generally think would best serve the Emperor in the first place.
Oh don’t get me wrong, if you are righteous citizen you have nothing to fear in 40K (well generally, or perhaps in this specific case :P).

I think marines are actively looking for those who are traitors, those who are chaos cultist and rebels. They are always on their guard and looking out for the traitor in their midst. Think of it this way: if full marines, neigh, full Primarchs with super human resistance can go all ‘Horus’ what chance does a regular human have to resist the lure of chaos? (None! rhetorical question!)

So what are the excuses they are looking for?

Any sign, no matter how small, that a person has doubts (every notice all those saying about doubt strewn though the background material). If a person even suggests that the Imperium may be a bit harsh, or perhaps a wee bit evil, or whispers it may not be in their best interests to maintain an alliance with the Imperium, and you are going to see fireworks. I think even suggesting that a democracy is a good idea to vote in Imperial officials to replace the ‘nobility’ would get you killed (that would really set them off).

There are some things you just can’t say to a marine. And, unlike our military in our world, when dealing with ‘insurgents’ marines whack everybody. Even knowing a ‘rebel’ can get you killed, living in the same street (your should have been vigilant and alerted the authorities of your suspicions), or town puts you on the list.

Marines take rebellion very seriously, and they watch for it all the time.

Now, I don’t know about you, but a person watching from a merest hint of rebellion, and instantly upon seeing it, is prepared to ‘cut out the cancer’ with mass genocide and flatten a town or city in the process is a psycho.

Well that’s my view, more Rogue Trader era marines I say!

Philip

Supremearchmarshal
07-11-2007, 14:06
Maybe it was a stunty Bloodthirster. Why would you assume that Bloodthirsters all are the same height?

Hm... a midget leading Khorne's greatest servants? Wouldn't he you know... make them look silly? Though I remember a RT game when my marines were attacked by a hideously fat, 5ft tall, bull-hybrid khornate daemon prince...


Marines take rebellion very seriously, and they watch for it all the time.

Now, I donít know about you, but a person watching from a merest hint of rebellion, and instantly upon seeing it, is prepared to Ďcut out the cancerí with mass genocide and flatten a town or city in the process is a psycho.

Well thatís my view, more Rogue Trader era marines I say!

Philip

Well some marines wouldn't think twice about flattening a city to purge a single heretic, but most to marines protecting humanity is a sacred duty and would likely refuse to do so unless there's absolutely no alternative. And even then there's the story of Deathwing...

Philip S
07-11-2007, 14:17
Well some marines wouldn't think twice about flattening a city to purge a single heretic, but most to marines protecting humanity is a sacred duty and would likely refuse to do so unless there's absolutely no alternative. And even then there's the story of Deathwing...
You have to put it back into context, and remember I said 'can' get you killed.

If it's a lone secret and separate cult of anti-social misfits then yes I agree with you: the marines will hunt them specifically and leave the rest of the community.

However, if it a a regular member of society, or tribe, or large institution, or government, says something rebellious, and they seem to have support at a grass roots level - guess what?

BANG!

Context is everything in these multi-layered scenarios.

Philip

GavT
07-11-2007, 14:23
Space Marines are, on average, about seven feet tall. As mentioned, Jes mislabelled his outline so that it starts at 1' rather than 0, and that's caused no end of problems since! Some Space Marines have been known to grow bigger (there's a legendary Wolf Guard Marine whose name escapes me at the moment, for example).

They are tall, but the remarkable thing, standing next to that full-size drawing, was how broad a Space Marine would be. It's that sheer mass that is imposing as much as their height. Having met a 6' 10" professional wrestler a couple of years ago, I can tell you that he was huge and intimidating enough, so the size of a Space Marine isn't that much of a stretch for me after that!

Cheers,

GAV

Philip S
07-11-2007, 14:55
Space Marines are, on average, about seven feet tall. As mentioned,
I thought that was the minimum?

Philip

Green-is-best
07-11-2007, 18:18
I'm 6'3" and I've stood close to a few people who were 7' or a little taller, and I can safely say that they were shockingly tall. I dunno if I'd say I was "in complete awe" of them, but they really were astonishingly big. I don't think simply saying "Man, he is tall" really does a 7'+ person justice.

Definitely. If somebody says they saw a person who is 7+ feet tall and just thought "man, he is tall" I tend to think they probably saw someone who was 6'6" and just assumed they were 7' tall. I'm 5'10", average hieght for an American male of my age group, and I've met a couple of 7' plus bball players and I can tell you they look like they could be a different subspecies of humans. Homo Sapiens Tallus or something.

7' is big enough so that you can't fit through doors, get in most cars, buy clothes from a regular store, fit in an airplane bathroom, and so on. Basically, all of human society is designed around the idea that most people aren't going to be much taller than about 6'5"ish.

Green Shoes
07-11-2007, 18:41
Bam!
http://www.chine-informations.com/images/upload2/yao_ming.jpg

Just add twice the girth and mass and you end up with a slightly taller than average Space Marine.

Cheesolith
07-11-2007, 18:43
Marines are supposed to be 7' in full armor(and the backpack is taller then the marine). Anything larger just won't fit into vehicles/doors.

Primarchs i would estimate arround 7'5'' with magnus being abit bigger.

The emperor would be pretty small actualy, or how the hell did he manage to stay in the background for 30000 years? It isn't easy hiding somebody 12 foot tall like he is portrayed most of the time.

Burnthem
07-11-2007, 19:24
I expect the Emperor to bit about 6'3 or maybe 6'6, tall enought to still be 'special' but not so tall as to attract attention.

On a side note, maybe the Emperor wasnt originally all uber-human, maybe it was just his mental powers that were strong, and when he started to reclaim earth and began the space marine/primarch program he beefed himself up, taking himself to primarch standards?

Green-is-best
07-11-2007, 19:37
Bam!
http://www.chine-informations.com/images/upload2/yao_ming.jpg

Just add twice the girth and mass and you end up with a slightly taller than average Space Marine.

A White Scar no less!

Philip S
07-11-2007, 19:53
That's a picture of Yao Ming, he's is 7’6” 310lbs.


Marines are supposed to be 7' in full armor(and the backpack is taller then the marine). Anything larger just won't fit into vehicles/doors.
Bigger doors in 40K, blame the STC.


Primarchs i would estimate arround 7'5'' with magnus being abit bigger.
How would they get in though the doors? That's right: bigger doors! STC buildings have really big doors, like a church or many government buildings.


The emperor would be pretty small actualy, or how the hell did he manage to stay in the background for 30000 years? It isn't easy hiding somebody 12 foot tall like he is portrayed most of the time.
Perhaps he was Zeus (as the Emperor is a thunder and lighting god) or one of the other many thunder gods that roamed the land (in his wandering phase).

People would notice a super powerful Alpha+++ Class Psyker when they see one and quite probably see him as a ‘god’ (in the traditional sense, probably has a beard for a while!).

Right now he may be wandering the Eldar Web Way chatting to Eldar, getting into adventures and generally having great fun exploring the universe as only a ‘god’ can. All the while he is blissfully unconcerned about Earth as he is safe in the knowledge that we are looking after the planet as he instructed, taking care of each other and researching knowledge and science for the betterment of all… oh wait.

Balls.

Daddy an't gonna be happy when he gets home!

Philip

Argastes
07-11-2007, 21:05
;2071911]Bigger doors in 40K, blame the STC.


How would they get in though the doors? That's right: bigger doors! STC buildings have really big doors, like a church or many government buildings.

On any given planet, most or all buildings aren't going to be constructed to STC standards. They'll be local construction, with the blueprints dictated by nothing but common sense and functionality (and maybe local architectural tastes). Maybe 8 or 9 foot Marines could fit into the buildings in an Ogryn community; but nowhere else.


I think marines are actively looking for those who are traitors, those who are chaos cultist and rebels. They are always on their guard and looking out for the traitor in their midst. Think of it this way: if full marines, neigh, full Primarchs with super human resistance can go all ‘Horus’ what chance does a regular human have to resist the lure of chaos? (None! rhetorical question!)

So what are the excuses they are looking for?

Any sign, no matter how small, that a person has doubts (every notice all those saying about doubt strewn though the background material). If a person even suggests that the Imperium may be a bit harsh, or perhaps a wee bit evil, or whispers it may not be in their best interests to maintain an alliance with the Imperium, and you are going to see fireworks. I think even suggesting that a democracy is a good idea to vote in Imperial officials to replace the ‘nobility’ would get you killed (that would really set them off).

There are some things you just can’t say to a marine. And, unlike our military in our world, when dealing with ‘insurgents’ marines whack everybody. Even knowing a ‘rebel’ can get you killed, living in the same street (your should have been vigilant and alerted the authorities of your suspicions), or town puts you on the list.

Marines take rebellion very seriously, and they watch for it all the time.

They may take it very seriously, but they don't "watch for it all the time". Where do you get the idea that Marines are the political police of the Imperium? They are a special-purpose military formation whose distinguishing feature is mobility and whose primary mission is orbital assault. Watching for rebellion is the job of the Adeptus Arbites, the Inquisition, and other organizations. The Space Marine mission is largely unrelated to monitoring the Imperial populace and suppressing political dissent.

And just living in the same town as a rebel will "put you on the list"? Please. It sounds like you're just making stuff up now. Maybe the Inquisition's list. Can you cite any meaningful instances of Marines (who aren't part of one of the extra-ruthless "fringe" chapters) behaving in this way? Massacring towns and conducting political purges? Or any indication at all that they behave in this way?


Now, I don’t know about you, but a person watching from a merest hint of rebellion, and instantly upon seeing it, is prepared to ‘cut out the cancer’ with mass genocide and flatten a town or city in the process is a psycho.

Again, show me a pattern of "mass genocide" by mainstream Marine chapters in GW fluff and I'll consider it.

Philip S
07-11-2007, 22:01
Watching for rebellion is the job of the Adeptus Arbites, the Inquisition, and other organizations. The Space Marine mission is largely unrelated to monitoring the Imperial populace and suppressing political dissent.
I never said marines are there to 'monitor' :confused:

If marines have been called in, then it is already serious. So serious that marines actually had to be called in (now that's really serious!)

It the marine are in a serious situation they are going to be vigilant.

In that powder keg of a situation, I would suggest it is not the best time to say anything that could set the off.

(and if not in a war zone they are on home turf and they are 'monks'. Very intense monks in a warrior type way, totally dedicated to their craft (have you seen a list of their daily rituals?)

Marines are not like us, they are not regular soldiers. We have the IG for that. I'm sure storm troopers are elite and very 'human'.

Philip

Argastes
08-11-2007, 12:35
I never said marines are there to 'monitor' :confused:

Well, you talked about how they are "actively looking" for signs of treason or rebellion, and that they are always looking out for the "traitor in their midst". If you meant something else, you certainly didn't make it clear.


If marines have been called in, then it is already serious. So serious that marines actually had to be called in (now that's really serious!)

It the marine are in a serious situation they are going to be vigilant.

In that powder keg of a situation, I would suggest it is not the best time to say anything that could set the off.

Even in such a situation, "being vigilant" isn't really their job. It's the job of the Inquisitor responsible for investigating the root of the situation, or the Guardsmen responsible for patrolling the occupied towns and weeding out the remaining rebel cells once the overt rebellion has been put down. The Space Marines' job in such a situation is going to be to conduct the initial orbital assault that will "kick in the door" and establish a beach-head (air-head? space-head? landing zone? drop zone?) for a landing by heavier IG forces. They may also participate in some of the initial surface fighting, but they definitely aren't going to stick around in an occupation role and play post-rebellion detective force; they aren't going to be walking the streets and mingling with the planet's civilian populace, so they aren't really going to be in a position where they might be overhearing seditious talk from locals and then punishing them for it.

And even if they were, I'm not questioning their vigilance and devoted; what I'm questioning is that they're always on the edge of "snapping" and unleashing an orgy of indiscriminate destruction because one person said something mildly anti-Imperial to them. They may be vigilant and devoted, but they're also disciplined and professional. I know it's easy to lose sight of that, and fall into the trap of thinking that vigilance and fanaticism are their only predominant traits, because recent GW fluff often over-emphasizes those traits (I guess because that's the best way to elicit an "OMG Marines are the most h4rdc0re ever!!" response in readers who might not be particularly mature or realistically-minded, since disciplined professionalism isn't as "badass" as going nuts on someone with a chainsword). But anyhow, I say again: If you can find me a GW fluff reference to mainstream, non-crazy Marines inflicting genocide on a civilian populace because of what one person said, I'll consider your argument. Until then, I have to say that you're just making stuff up.


(and if not in a war zone they are on home turf and they are 'monks'. Very intense monks in a warrior type way, totally dedicated to their craft (have you seen a list of their daily rituals?)

I have; and it certainly does reveal their superhuman level of dedication; and I certainly never questioned that dedication. But nothing in that list of daily rituals indicates to me that they are barely-restrained psychopaths ready to snap and massacre everyone they can see for the reasons you have suggested. Just the opposite, in fact.

Kage2020
09-11-2007, 00:08
Just one thing to consider in the whole perspective thing when considering Phil's argument is his design agenda. Based upon his wonderful work - yeah, it's cool Phil! - is that he seems to take the imagery as true and make everything shape to that. Thus his Marines seem to assume that the armour is "true" and everything follows on from that.

That's cool.

For me, though? Not going to happen. I make the armour fit the Marine, rather the Marine fit the armour. All this means, though, is that I don't get paid to do the former, while as a fan I do the latter. :D

Kage