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BigEaZyE
06-11-2007, 02:48
Hi all...


In the HH series, it's clearly stated that they've done away with religion and belief in gods and such in favor of the imperial truth of science and all that....


That being the case... why exactly do the space marines have chaplains? Those guys being a spiritual advisor?

Seems silly to me.

Noserenda
06-11-2007, 02:57
Spiritual doesent entirely mean Religious...

Think more counsellor/morale officer, whilst keeping an eye out for Psykers, Infractions and badness...

Like a Shiny Hero type Commissar :angel:

Khaine's Messenger
06-11-2007, 03:55
why exactly do the space marines have chaplains?

The office of Chaplain was created as a universal post on the orders of Malcador the Sigillite in order to enforce the ruling of the Emperor on Nikea. That is, the disbanding of the Legions' psyker corps. Other than that, they were pretty much morale officers or official psychologists, as Noserenda pointed out. Mind you, the irony that the post was created in the image of Lorgar's own "chaplains" was lost on no one, especially Lorgar, who had become corrupt by that point....

Gdolkin
06-11-2007, 13:47
It seems to me that the the 'Imperial Truth' creed of the Great Crusade is itself a thinly disguised dogmatism and idolization of the Emperor anyway: even though they studiously avoided words like 'god', 'holy', 'divine' etc. they were still fanatical and dogmatic in their faith in the Emperor and his 'Illumination'.. They would say things like 'The Emperor is above all others, immortal, sublime in His power and vision, manifestly the supreme authority of the galaxy, beyond the understanding or criticism of mere mortals, but not a god, oh dear me no, whatever gave you that idea?' But I digress.. The Chaplains were there to reinforce and enforce 'secular' faith in the absolute supremacy and infallibility of the Emperor and his wisdom and vision while at the same time coming down hard on anyone who said 'He sounds like a God to me..' ..You can see why it all went against His stated desire to not be seen as divine, right? If it looks like a duck, swims like a duck, quacks like a duck, then even extensive DNA testing proving otherwise, the official denial of the existence of ducks, and authoritarian pronouncements that it is not in fact a duck are not going to convince everyone..
"The Emperor says he's not a God."
"Well, he's God, he should know.."
"Errrr.."
My point is that if something occupies a certain logical/conceptual/grammatical/ontological space, such as being an omniscient, omnipotent, immortal infallible being (or at least is percieved as being such), or indeed being a small, beaked, feathered, swimming and quacking creature, then that position in the language and consciousness of the society concerned is what defines it as what it is, to put it crudely. For the Emperor and His Chaplains to be saying "He is not a God, so stop saying He is or face His Divi..(ahem) SECULAR Wrath!" is pissing in the wind and shouldn't fool anybody..
Sorry, went a bit OTT there, bloody semantics and the nature of divinity, where's me toy soldiers? ;)

ryng_sting
06-11-2007, 17:08
The post of Space Marine Chaplain was created to enforce the psyker ban and keep a watchful eye on morale, heresy, corruption etc among their charges. It's probable that the first centrally-trained Commissars were modelled on them, after the heresy.

As an aside, the Imperium didn't succeed in abolishing freedom of worship entirely in any case, much as it wished to.

Noserenda
06-11-2007, 18:01
Yeqah thats the problem, people Want gods :wtf:

DantesInferno
06-11-2007, 21:13
It seems to me that the the 'Imperial Truth' creed of the Great Crusade is itself a thinly disguised dogmatism and idolization of the Emperor anyway: even though they studiously avoided words like 'god', 'holy', 'divine' etc. they were still fanatical and dogmatic in their faith in the Emperor and his 'Illumination'.. They would say things like 'The Emperor is above all others, immortal, sublime in His power and vision, manifestly the supreme authority of the galaxy, beyond the understanding or criticism of mere mortals, but not a god, oh dear me no, whatever gave you that idea?' But I digress.. The Chaplains were there to reinforce and enforce 'secular' faith in the absolute supremacy and infallibility of the Emperor and his wisdom and vision while at the same time coming down hard on anyone who said 'He sounds like a God to me..' ..You can see why it all went against His stated desire to not be seen as divine, right? If it looks like a duck, swims like a duck, quacks like a duck, then even extensive DNA testing proving otherwise, the official denial of the existence of ducks, and authoritarian pronouncements that it is not in fact a duck are not going to convince everyone..
"The Emperor says he's not a God."
"Well, he's God, he should know.."
"Errrr.."
My point is that if something occupies a certain logical/conceptual/grammatical/ontological space, such as being an omniscient, omnipotent, immortal infallible being (or at least is percieved as being such), or indeed being a small, beaked, feathered, swimming and quacking creature, then that position in the language and consciousness of the society concerned is what defines it as what it is, to put it crudely. For the Emperor and His Chaplains to be saying "He is not a God, so stop saying He is or face His Divi..(ahem) SECULAR Wrath!" is pissing in the wind and shouldn't fool anybody..
Sorry, went a bit OTT there, bloody semantics and the nature of divinity, where's me toy soldiers? ;)

Indeed! To quote Monty Python:
Brian: I'm not the Messiah! Will you please listen? I am not the Messiah, do you understand? Honestly!
Girl: Only the true Messiah denies His divinity.
Brian: What? Well, what sort of chance does that give me? All right! I am the Messiah!
Followers: He is! He is the Messiah!
Brian: Now, **** off!
[silence]
Arthur: How shall we **** off, O Lord?

Imperialis_Dominatus
06-11-2007, 23:26
Indeed! To quote Monty Python:
Brian: I'm not the Messiah! Will you please listen? I am not the Messiah, do you understand? Honestly!
Girl: Only the true Messiah denies His divinity.
Brian: What? Well, what sort of chance does that give me? All right! I am the Messiah!
Followers: He is! He is the Messiah!
Brian: Now, **** off!
[silence]
Arthur: How shall we **** off, O Lord?

By turning to Chaos. Thus you get the Word Bearers.

Lastie
07-11-2007, 08:02
By turning to Chaos. Thus you get the Word Bearers.

Chaos: Official sponsors of Parental Deification Rejection Anonymous.

Gdolkin
07-11-2007, 09:55
To add to my earlier rant, it also seems to me that the Astartes and citizens of the Crusade-era Imperium accepted the institutional atheism of Imperial Truth not out of rational reflection or scientific evidence (I'm aware that the latter and many would say the former have no bearing on the existence or otherwise of Gods, but stay with me) but 'because the big shiny all-powerful all-knowing Emperor says so'.. Ironic, and doubly ironic as Gods DO exist in 30k/40k.. Aside from that, i'm prepared to believe ryng-sting that the Chaplain's original official function was to be sort of like Commisars and be more for rooting out unsanstioned psykery and contra-Imperial Truth ideas and sentiments, than 'preaching' the emphatically non-divine divinity of the Emperor.. what larks eh?

Kriegstreiber
07-11-2007, 10:38
Harr harr ...
"I`m Brain!"
"No, I am Brian!"
After the HH novels so far I don*t believe that every compliant civilization would abandon its own religious traditions and gods in total. But we don*t know the the average of peaceful acts of compliance.
Well ... you might say, how peaceful is compliance with about 10.000 killerbred warmongers in orbit. As for the chaplains I honestly agree with Ms Ryng_Styng.