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View Full Version : Is a Daemonic Mount worth it?



mistformsquirrel
06-11-2007, 10:19
Hi all. I was thinking about something recently...

While I originally wasn't sure I'd like the idea of using my Chaos Lord mounted, because I thought it would look silly; I had an idea that has made it work out a bit better; and I think I now have an excellent way of modeling her up.

However now I find myself questioning if I should stick to the normal Chaos Steed, or if I should spring the extra 26 points for a Daemonic Mount.

Are they any good? I like that it has 2 Str 5 attacks; that means my Lord is hitting like a freight train in close combat (more than she already was I mean), and its got a higher WS as well. On the flipside, it can be killed, leaving my lord stuck on foot, and I'll have to wring some points out of my list for the upgrade from a regular Chaos Steed; something I'm not 100% sure I want to do...

There's also a third option - she's Tzeentch marked, so she could take a Disc... however I'm a little leary of that, because doesn't it make her kind of a missile magnet? I may have misunderstood the rules there, so I'm not 100% sure. It has some advantages for sure with her spellcasting; and a 15" move is pretty darn spiffy in some respects... I have some ideas if I were to go with a disc as well, and its not really against my concept, its just one of those things "I'm not sure of" I guess.

So should I stick with just using a Barded Steed? Or should I spring the extra points for something a bit bigger?

The only reason I'm wondering is because I intend to do the model for her soon; and I need to make that decision before I get started!

Briohmar
06-11-2007, 20:04
That's an interesting querry. I really don't know for sure what is best in a Tzeentch force. I find that in my chaos army, an exalted champion on barded steed is usually enough to get the job done, but for Tzeentch, you may want that added edge. With the Daemonic mount, or the disk, you get the added bonus of not giving in to fear, so not a bad thing. the base size is bigger, which can be a drawback, unless you arm with the Berserker sword, then you get lots of lovely additional attacks, again this is a good thing. You have already mentioned the drawback of being a missile magnet, and the thing about this that you haven't weighed in with yet is also the loss of the additional save. The daemonic steed only gives you a +1 to armor, where the barded steed gives two, and the disk gives no additional protection. These are just some of the things you have to consider in your decision.

L192837465
06-11-2007, 22:01
deamoni steeds = nowhere near as good as you think. that 26 points is for +1a, +1s, +1w, and +1ws for a -1as trade off. thats nice. the steed can be killed. that sucks. the steed also has a 5+ as. thats horrible. even if its deamonic, it'll be the first thing targeted by any decen troops to get 2 quick kills for combat res. AND you're knight unit will now be slowed to a crawl. lame.

idk, i've seen people make great use of them, but then again, i make great use of a dragon. its really good, btw.

theunwantedbeing
06-11-2007, 22:08
Assuming you keep the thing safe from harm in a unit it does make the rider really rather difficult to actually kill.
Giving the guy riding it items to make proper use of the larger base helps as well.
You can always hide him in a unit if you need to anyway.

mistformsquirrel
06-11-2007, 23:53
Hmm... good points all around >.<;;

I think for now I'll stick with the Barded steed, simply because its straightforward, and I have a LOT of learning left to do; best not to get *too* complex yet. Cides, I'll probably want to re-do my character models later anyway just for the sake of making sure they look nice >.<

Axis
07-11-2007, 00:13
I don't know if its possible (since i don't think you've modelled him yet...) but you could try each out in a few games and see which one you like best.

MarcoPollo
07-11-2007, 02:04
I think using a demonic steed can really help the psychology of tzeetch marked characters and units, as well as units like marauders or marauder horsemen. Being able to stick a demonic mount in those units really helps with the psychology.

For me I justify the points very easily. In a marauder block with light armor, and shield you are paying 7 points a piece. If you place your demonic steed you are reducing the number of marauders that you have to pay for by 3. That's 21 pts. So you are only paying 29 pts for the effect of having a fear causing model in your unit.

Either way, it is used to support my marauder block. But, it is much more versatile than a regular Helm of Many eyes character as I can jump him out of the unit and sneak him into a knight unit, dragon ogre unit, or minotaur unit to give the punch needed to break a unit head on. Also, the beserker sword adds atleast two attacks from being on the demonic steed and that can really beef up your attacks. You may even decide to charge out on your own against certain types of shock troops. With a super high weapon skill, you can earn alot of extra attacks against most ogre class shock troops.

Don't get me wrong, the chaos steed is a good investment. But, the less psychology tests you have to take (and the more your opponent has to take) the better of you'll be. Of all the dice rolls in the game that have the biggest impact, ld tests are by far the most important. The dice gods don't care whether you are rolling to hit or for a terror test, they will be as fickle as ever. I can handle a couple of bad rolls to hit, but failling a critical ld test can be devastating.

mav1971
07-11-2007, 13:53
I like demonic steeds. I use them on occasion. If your worried about your characters on the disc of tzeentch being missle targets use the magic item that gives you a 3+ ward save against shooting(can't think what its called).

Another favorite tactic is to put a character on a steed of slaanesh in a unit of knights. And if its safe enough and there is a nice juicy target in his 20" charge range I go for it. He also has his unit of knights not far behind him if he does get in trouble.

sulla
07-11-2007, 18:16
A daemonic steed is a good choice for a tzeench character in a unit. This is because it is fear causing and a fear causing model that joins a unit makes that unit immune to fear. Since you will probably want to get your unit into combat at some stage and you don't want to be testing for fear, even at Ld9, that is the main reason d. steeds are a good choice for tzeench armies.

Btw, I'm with you on the disc... seems way too vulnerable and makes the rider a real priority target. I do like this combo though; Tz exhalted on chariot with 3+ward vs shooting and the enchanted item that lets him spy magic items etc from an enemy unit. Give him a halberd and shield too and he's a tough package that can be a threat to any infantry unit singlehandedly. (Frees up your lord so he's not the only threat for your opponent to focus on.)

Darwin_green
07-11-2007, 18:40
how well do they work with Undivided heroes?

Kerill
07-11-2007, 19:12
I think its definitely worthwhile for Tzeentch, the immunity to fear for the unit is a massive boon (as well as your opponents having to take a fear test). Also its very useful for Tzeentch characters against gunlines since you are paying quite a bit for the character and its almost like a 3+ ward save against them being killed. Especially for chaos lords of Tzeentch who are the backbone of your magical defence as well. Finally nothing sucks as much as a unit of chosen knights failing a fear test. Sure your opponent can attack the T5 5+ ward steed in combat instead of your lord but that means your 400+ point lord is safe from attacks and can lay down his hurt when he gets the chance. Even if you lose and break he may still escape which is better than being killed (even a 4+ ward, even if re-rollable will fail sometimes). Also the daemonsteed has a 16" charge so occasionally it can get a long charge of when the knights can't. Also with US4 you can autobreak single characters/war machine crew even if you fluff your attacks. Disks are great but can;t join units, so it depends on what you want your character to accomplish really.

For undivided/slaanesh/Khorne its certainly less worthwhile unless with marauders or marauder cavalry for the fear benefit. For nurgle its probably never worth it.

der_lex
08-11-2007, 00:18
A Disc are worth it in a Tzeentch army if your lord is used as a solo unit, ie as a magic missile-blasting mobile weapons platform. In that case, i'd even call it a must.
The 3+ ward save of the golden eye of Tzeentch (which should be standard equipment for any Lord on a Disc) minimizes the risk of shooting... my opponents have pretty much given up on shooting at the lord, since they never manage to get hits in due to the combination of said ward save and Toughness 5 for the disc (meanest feat: having a Skaven player empty three ratling guns on it in a single turn, and not taking any hits :D).

What the disc does give you is an incredible amount of mobility, and the ability to target just about everything on the battlefield with your spells, because you always have the line of sight of a large target.
For a little more info on using your lord like this, take a look at my article on Tzeentch magic in the Magic 101 thread (just saying that so I don't have to repeat myself ;))

However, if you intend to use the Lord in a unit, I think a simple barded Chaos steed is the best choice. I prefer the armor save and the guarantee of my lord being mounted for the entire game over the extra attack power of the daemonic steed, which tends to die too quickly for my tastes.

theunwantedbeing
08-11-2007, 00:29
They work fine on undivided hero's.
They give your undivided unit immunity to fear.
Plus you just give him the berkserker sword and an enchanted sheild and you have a 2+ armour save and some silly amount of attacks.

A chaos lord could have the black maul and get 3st5 attacks out of his daemonic steed easily enough(along with 6 st7 attacks from the lord). Pretty damned nasty.(although the dragon is always more fun...mmm frenzied dragon!)

Damonic steeds for non githy character's is often never worth it as the rider is simply at too much risk from being killed, as he is seperately targettable from the mount itself so doesnt benefit from an increased save by riding the thing.

Crown of everlasting conquest to make the mount regenerate perhaps?(again way better with a dragon.....shame it isnt combinable with the black maul!).
Amulet of chaos to take advantage of that larger base.
Gaze of the gods for a 4+ ward save for your daemon and rider.

Just a few idea's.
Note a lot of people probably wont agree with letting you get some of the more "interesting" effects of the items mentioned.

Kerill
08-11-2007, 02:30
Thats because the effects you listed are all illegal in game terms. (well the ward/regen save ones are)

Ender101
22-11-2007, 15:07
I run an Undivided mortal army led by a real heavy hitter on a D. Mount. Enchanted Shield, Blade of Blood, Crown of Everlasting Conquest. That gives 2+ Armor and Regen, and allows him to double his wounds in CC! The extra hitting power of the mount along with the added T are more than worth it in my opinion. ((Just for reference the mount does not benifit from the lord's crown))

The key is to put him with some knights and form a screen with some hounds to protect from shooting.

Just my two cents.

bluebugs
22-11-2007, 18:12
so wait, a daemonic steed can join units of mortals so long as the hero is mortal, but if I say gave him the chalice of the gods, he could only join say units of horrors or other rank and file daemons? correct?

theunwantedbeing
22-11-2007, 18:16
Correctamundo.

Turanos
25-11-2007, 16:19
The daemonic steed only gives you a +1 to armor, where the barded steed gives two, and the disk gives no additional protection. These are just some of the things you have to consider in your decision.

The Daemonic Mount doesn't give you ANY benefit to armour, does it? You don't get the mounted benefit because it's a monstrous steed, and those benefits are worked out differently. Referencing P.59 of the rulebook.

logan054
25-11-2007, 17:06
as far as i know it dosnt give you +1 save, still its a pretty cool thing to use, i think the key here is that when in a unit grants immunity to fear, makes it harder for units to get the charge in, certainly well worth the points now unlike in previous edition.

Chris_Tzeentch
25-11-2007, 23:04
deamoni steeds = nowhere near as good as you think. that 26 points is for +1a, +1s, +1w, and +1ws for a -1as trade off. thats nice. the steed can be killed. that sucks. the steed also has a 5+ as. thats horrible. even if its deamonic, it'll be the first thing targeted by any decen troops to get 2 quick kills for combat res. AND you're knight unit will now be slowed to a crawl. lame.

idk, i've seen people make great use of them, but then again, i make great use of a dragon. its really good, btw.

I have done this myself - killed the steed, and then the unit has to move at infantry pace, so you run them down with little effort.

Tzeentch characters are safer on horses.

Dead Man Walking
26-11-2007, 01:50
I have seen tzee characters used with great efficiency on a disk. I had an opponent who put all his characters on disks and when it came time that one of his units became involved in combat all the disks would go charging into that combat to deliver 3-4 chaos characters with greatweapons and disk attacks to ensure that the unit of warriors won combat. The guy would win league tourneys consistantly (year after year.) as his flying circus coupled with 16 powerdice were hard to deal with.

Chris_Tzeentch
26-11-2007, 12:04
I have seen tzee characters used with great efficiency on a disk. I had an opponent who put all his characters on disks and when it came time that one of his units became involved in combat all the disks would go charging into that combat to deliver 3-4 chaos characters with greatweapons and disk attacks to ensure that the unit of warriors won combat. The guy would win league tourneys consistantly (year after year.) as his flying circus coupled with 16 powerdice were hard to deal with.

What else did he have in his army? How did he prevent individual disks from being picked off with magic or artillery? At least one could make use of the Golden Eye of Tzeentch, but it would be difficult for others to prevent damage from competent gun lines.

Axis
26-11-2007, 21:49
I guess he could position them well or something.