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Benji550
06-11-2007, 20:52
This is a tournament list. Need help.

General of the Empire 159
Sword of Sigismund
Armor of Meteoric Iron
Pistol

Captain of the Empire 138
Battle Standard Bearer
Griffon Standard
Full Plate Armor

Battle Wizard 150
Level 2
Power Stone
Dispel Scroll
Biting Blade

2 x (20) Spearmen 270
Shields
Full Command
Detachment: (10) Handgunners
Detachment: (10) Free Company Fighters

(10) Huntsmen 105
Marksman

(20) Greatswords 380
Full Command
War Banner
Detachment: (10) Handgunners
Detachment: (10) Free Company Fighters

(10) Knights of the White Wolf 320
Inner Circle
Full Command
War Banner

Great Cannon 100

Hellblaster Volley Gun 110

Total: 2002

brambleten
06-11-2007, 21:07
can Empre wizards take more than 50pts of magic items, or are dispell scrolls, powerstones and biting blades less for the empire than they are for the rest of us?

Kahadras
06-11-2007, 21:11
Your two points over. That's the first problem. Next problem is lack of magic. Get another battle wizard and another dispel magic scroll to boost your magic defence. Switch the spearmen for swordsmen as they're well worth the extra point. Drop the size of the Greatsword unit at the moment it just has a big 'shoot me for loads of VP!' banner over it. Drop the knights down to five or six. Paying tons of points is not worth the extra rank and again it will attract far too much attention.

I'd also look at getting some Pistoliers to act as light cavalry. They can march block, drive off flanking/skirmishing units, bait units and generaly be annoying. That should be plenty to think about for now.

Oh yeah and drop biting blade from your wizard. It's a waste of points.


or are dispell scrolls, powerstones and biting blades less for the empire than they are for the rest of us?


Yes they are. It adds up to 50 points overall.

Kahadras

brambleten
06-11-2007, 21:17
Yes they are. It adds up to 50 points overall.

Kahadras

thanks for clearing that up, Kahadras

Benji550
11-11-2007, 01:19
Redid the list with less Knights, more magic, and an Engineer for the Hellblaster. I kept the pistol because the list is exactly 2000 points and there isn't anything else for equal points.

General of the Empire 159
Sword of Sigismund
Armor of Meteoric Iron
Pistol

2 x Battle Wizard 145
Level 2
Power Stone
Dispel Scroll

Master Engineer 85
Hochland Long Rifle

2 x (20) Spearmen 270
Shields
Full Command
Detachment: (10) Handgunners
Detachment: (10) Free Company Fighters

(10) Huntsmen 105
Marksman

(20) Greatswords 390
Full Command
Standard of Arcane Warding
Detachment: (10) Crossbowmen
Detachment: (10) Free Company Fighters

(6) Knights of the White Wolf 221
Inner Circle
Full Command
War Banner

Great Cannon 100

Hellblaster Volley Gun 110

Total: 2000

Wreckage
11-11-2007, 02:31
85pts to increase the helblaster +1BS is poor points usage. For just 25 points beyond the engineer you can get a whole 'nother Helblaster!

I never leave home without two cannon. YMMV

I have been tremendously pleased with 3x3 'brick' detachments... try it out! Also, I find 5 handgunner detachments just right. (better dispersal of fire, less reliance on hills, less eggs in one basket, etc.)

Parent units of Spears are awesome at 25 models.

I like my Greatswords 7 wide with a warrior priest for lots of attacks with hatred.

Benji550
11-11-2007, 03:27
I absolutely agree that I might as well purchase another Hellblaster. However, I could move the Engineer to the Great Cannon. I feel thet getting a second Cannon would be worth the points. Since I have a Mortar and all the bits to make it a Cannon is it worth the conversion or is the Mortar realy useless. Back when I played with it is seemed ok but didn't have the bang that the Cannon does. If I include a Cannon I will remove the Engineer and a single knight, buy the cannon and be left with an extra 11 points.

Wreckage
11-11-2007, 03:46
Mortars suck big time. Even against a prime opponent, like Elves, the cannon is better. And when you fight Dwarfs you can blast their war machines real easy. Cannon are just simply more versatile, and more accurate. The power is awesome too. you can go from destroying a war machine one turn to popping a dragon the next, to smashing a bunch of infantrymen after that.

The reason for two cannon is that its pretty easy to hide from one cannon, but two cannon its nearly impossible, and having two offsets their slight unpredictability with misfires.

Benji550
11-11-2007, 04:10
So far my strategy is to keep the army compact and close so that the generals Ld is going to as many of the units as is possible (seeing as generals of the Empire are not the most powerful lords in the world and the only benifit in taking them is the Ld). Keep the Handgunners right in front of the parent units and when they get charged and break or flee the enemy will overrunn into the parent. The Freecompany detachment will then counter-charge into the charging enemy. The advantages are that this tactic can be used when there is little space or when you are trying to keep the units close together for a leadership benifit. Furthermore, the overrun means that the combat will be fought during the next turn and be fought in initiative order. I like it becase you are not creating as large gaps between the units as you are when every unit has a detachment on both sides. The smaller gap is better for spreading leadership and because those large gaps are the places where enemy heavy cavalry will charge, break through and cause havok.

Rodman49
11-11-2007, 04:52
Mortars suck big time. Even against a prime opponent, like Elves, the cannon is better.

Wait, what? Doesn't a mortar direct shot hit like 15-20 models? We're talking 7-10 wounds, with 6-8 kills man! I know it only hits one/third the time but elves are 10 pts each which means one direct shot just about pays for itself.

Khorghan
11-11-2007, 06:19
I kept the pistol because the list is exactly 2000 points and there isn't anything else for equal points.

And because pistols are cool;)

Wreckage
11-11-2007, 14:20
Wait, what? Doesn't a mortar direct shot hit like 15-20 models? We're talking 7-10 wounds, with 6-8 kills man! I know it only hits one/third the time but elves are 10 pts each which means one direct shot just about pays for itself.

The opportunity costs of a mortar are too high. It's a waste of a precious special slot, and Empire need to make maximum use of all 4, theres just better choices out there.

But you do argue my point quite well... a Mortar at it's best kills 6-8 models, where Cannon would kill 3-4 infantry(which is far easier to do because of it's accuracy.) The real strength of the Cannon is when you run into other opponents like dwarfs, ogres, brettonians, etc. But even against Elves theres usually great targets, like knights, war machines, monsters that are juicy targets that will also "pay for the Cannon"

Benji550
11-11-2007, 15:28
I realized that I have a Goblin Hewer lying around and it would be the perfect war machine to fill the gap. It works best against large units of low toughness infantry (3 or less is ideal) and has a high enough armor save modifier to make it an ideal choice. It will excell at killing the same units as a mortar does but with higher accuracy and rate of sucess.


And because pistols are cool;)

And yes, pistols are cool.

Wreckage
11-11-2007, 16:56
Yes, the Hewer is ridiculously effective at mowing down low T, low armor infantry.

scarletsquig
11-11-2007, 17:38
The Freecompany detachment will then counter-charge into the charging enemy. The advantages are that this tactic can be used when there is little space or when you are trying to keep the units close together for a leadership benifit. Furthermore, the overrun means that the combat will be fought during the next turn and be fought in initiative order. I like it becase you are not creating as large gaps between the units as you are when every unit has a detachment on both sides. The smaller gap is better for spreading leadership and because those large gaps are the places where enemy heavy cavalry will charge, break through and cause havok.
Great strategy, it's good to see someone who knows how to use detachments. :)



Your two points over. That's the first problem. Next problem is lack of magic. Get another battle wizard and another dispel magic scroll to boost your magic defence.

Disagree, waste of points which are better spent on cheap models to soak up the spells. A few units of Free Company go a long way (and are really annoying!).

In my experience, one level 1 wizard with a rod of power is plenty for defense. He can usually store 3 power dice, leaving you with a healthy 6 dispel dice most of the time.




General of the Empire 159
Sword of Sigismund
Armor of Meteoric Iron
Pistol

Excellent.


2 x Battle Wizard 145
Level 2
Power Stone
Dispel Scroll

See above for my opinion on magic, but this part of the list is solid... average amount of magic attack/defense.


Master Engineer 85
Hochland Long Rifle
Bad choice. The BSB in your first list was much better, empire needs those leadership rerolls and combat resolution!

If you're gonna take him, go all the way and get pigeon bombs, they're not as bad as the internet would have you believe. ;)


2 x (20) Spearmen 270
Shields
Full Command

Consider units of 25 and removing the champion if you don't plan on putting a character with the unit.


Detachment: (10) Handgunners
Detachment: (10) Free Company Fighters

(10) Huntsmen 105
Marksman
Looks good, but ditch the marksman


(20) Greatswords 390
Full Command
Standard of Arcane Warding
Detachment: (10) Crossbowmen
Detachment: (10) Free Company Fighters
Good to see crossbowmen in there for some flexibility whenever mass bretonnian/ elf longbows come along.

[quote](6) Knights of the White Wolf 221
Inner Circle
Full Command
War Banner
White wolves are not the optimal choice now that they've lost their cavalry hammer... great weapons for mounted models in 7th edition got nerfed pretty badly. Your choice of standard is good though, can't go wrong with the war banner.


Great Cannon 100

Hellblaster Volley Gun 110

Looks good... I recommend another helblaster if you can find the points. The goblin hewer is even better. :evilgrin:

rexim
11-11-2007, 19:32
An empire lord is the worst lord choise, get an AL is alot better, 2 DD and 2 prayers, same ld and with VHS u dont need to be afraid for killer lords.

I would drop 1 lvl2 and get the other one scroll and wizard staff, and get a mounted BSB with sword of might, in your knights, making them a real hammer unit. U really need to think over your detatchments, taking archers makes sure U donte get out shoot, and can often force the aponent to fight the way you want. I'm not sure how many times i have won a matcht on a 5 man archer detatchment.

Benji550
12-11-2007, 05:03
I added the Goblin-Hewer and got rid of the Master Engineer (seeing as he wasn't doing anything). Furthermore, I was only taking the wizards for magic defence and decided to exchange them with a lvl 1 wizard with the Rod of Power because it, usually, will give me more dispell dice that the two lvl 2 wizards would (kudos scarletsquid). I also put the BSB back into the list and added two spearmen to make up the rest of the points.

General of the Empire 159
Sword of Sigismund
Armor of Meteoric Iron
Pistol

Captain of the Empire 138
Battle Standard
Griffon Standard
Full Plate Armor

Battle Wizard 95
Rod of Power

2 x (21) Spearmen 276
Shields
Full Command
Detachment: (10) Handgunners
Detachment: (10) Free Company Fighters

(10) Huntsmen 105
Marksman

(20) Greatswords 390
Full Command
Standard of Arcane Warding
Detachment: (10) Crossbowmen
Detachment: (10) Free Company Fighters

(6) Knights of the White Wolf 221
Inner Circle
Full Command
War Banner

Great Cannon 100

Hellblaster Volley Gun 110

Malakai Makaisson’s Goblin-Hewer 130

Total: 2000

Rodman49
12-11-2007, 06:22
The opportunity costs of a mortar are too high. It's a waste of a precious special slot, and Empire need to make maximum use of all 4, theres just better choices out there.

But you do argue my point quite well... a Mortar at it's best kills 6-8 models, where Cannon would kill 3-4 infantry(which is far easier to do because of it's accuracy.) The real strength of the Cannon is when you run into other opponents like dwarfs, ogres, brettonians, etc. But even against Elves theres usually great targets, like knights, war machines, monsters that are juicy targets that will also "pay for the Cannon"

That is true that as an Empire player you are always hurting for special slots but . . . 6-8 kills is not bad, that's a panic test and 2 CR knocked off a unit. You're right it won't be as effective against some armies (primarily Dwarfs and Brets) but I think its a lock if you have a significant amount of enemies that field T3 infantry blocks.

Then again I really like to spend all slots on warmachines to create ranged superiority and a defensive position.