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OnlyInDeath
07-11-2007, 00:00
I am curious here...most of the time the fluff implies that seeing or fighting demons would tear most people's brain apart...leaving them wimpering wusses.

But the Order of the Hammer has stormtroopers...and thus I can only assume that they are there to lay the smack down on demons and other physical manifestations of Chaos.

Can an average human (average only physically...stormtroopers are clearly the best of the best in terms of human soldiers) really fight a greater demon or demon prince (not win necessarily, but not punk out or have his mind melted?)

Imperialis_Dominatus
07-11-2007, 00:12
Yeah. It just takes a bit more spunk than your average Guardsman. See Death Korps of Krieg fluff. Those mothers know how to fight Daemons.

He who is doom
07-11-2007, 00:13
that is because the ordo stormtroopers are trained to suppress there thoughts and are usually mindwiped. plus they are usually over looked by the daemon.

Argastes
07-11-2007, 00:34
Yep, apparently even normal humans, if sufficiently trained and disciplined and strong-willed and mentally conditioned, can hold themselves together in the face of daemons.

Although, OnlyInDeath, you asked if they could really fight a greater daemon or daemon prince.... bear in mind that there are numerous varieties of lesser daemons, which will probably make up the bulk of most daemonic incursions. Even if inquisitorial stormtroopers would stand little chance against greater daemons or daemon princes, they would still be quite useful. An Ordo Malleus inquisitor could send his stormtroopers against the hordes of lesser daemons, and use his Grey Knights against the greater daemon(s).

Ivan Stupidor
07-11-2007, 00:36
It's certainly possible that they'll put up a good fight - one of the Eisenhorn books has Kasrkin taking on a Daemonhost with knives after all other options have been exhausted - but most of the time, a Greater Daemon-level threat isn't something you face physically without Grey Knights or similar. (There's a bit of fiction in White Dwarf from about the time of the Daemonhunters release which has an Inquisitor acting all badass with his retinue against plague zombies and then a Greater Daemon manifests and the Inquisitor goes "back to the Thunderhawk, lads! We'll nuke it from orbit!") Storm Troopers aren't really there to fight Greater Daemons one (or ten, or twenty...)-on-one; they're there to kill cultists and traitors and lesser Daemons, which they are more than capable of doing.

Alessander
07-11-2007, 01:05
They're expendable. They may survive the fight, but chances are they will either be lobotomized or just killed afterwards.

OnlyInDeath
07-11-2007, 02:16
They're expendable. They may survive the fight, but chances are they will either be lobotomized or just killed afterwards.

Inquisitor stormtroopers are not "expendable". They are the best Human soldiers anywhere in the galaxy...

Decius
07-11-2007, 02:29
Your average human cannot fight a daemon prince or greater daemon. Only a protagonist can do that, and they are by no means average. :D

edit

Inquisitor stormtroopers are not "expendable". They are the best Human soldiers anywhere in the galaxy...

I'm sure they would view themselves as expendable. You don't retire from being a Ordo Malleus Stormtrooper.

OnlyInDeath
07-11-2007, 02:33
I'm sure they would view themselves as expendable. You don't retire from being a Ordo Malleus Stormtrooper.

You don't retire from being a Gray Knight either...that doesn't make them expendable.

When I say "could a Stormtrooper fight a Greater Demon" I don't mean that the Stormtrooper gets a grim look on his face, says, "Lets rumble", and then attacks the Demon with a knife while heavy metal music plays. I mean, he doesn't crap his pants and run away crying.

Eisen
07-11-2007, 02:59
Then yes. Chances are that even a line Guardsman could work up the nerve to fight until the only weapon he had left was a helmet. People will surprise you.

Imperialis_Dominatus
07-11-2007, 06:45
And a Death Korps soldier would tango with a Greater Daemon naked. :D

Shows what no regard for your own life does for you.

Iracundus
07-11-2007, 06:50
Death Korps troopers can still break and flee. Being stoic isn't the same thing as being truly invulnerable and fearless. It may be less common but still happens. The IA Siege of Vraks book even has an entire regiment falling back in abject disarray after heavy enemy fire.

Biomass Denial
07-11-2007, 06:52
I see them as extended amounts of ablative wounds for our inquisitor.

[SD] Bob Plisskin
07-11-2007, 06:58
My personal opinion no way based on anything would be that inq stormies would probably know about what they were facing since knowledge is power (especially with daemons). When being charged at by a greater daemon they probably weigh up whether they can get to somewhere to hide (ie run away) or if their only chance to live is to shoot at the thing; hope for 6s.

Guardsmen would be better - commisar's pistol vs big crunchy teeth.

Personally I'd die a hero but I probably would have done that in some stupidly-heroic way on my 2nd mission or something...

Imperialis_Dominatus
07-11-2007, 07:04
Death Korps troopers can still break and flee. Being stoic isn't the same thing as being truly invulnerable and fearless. It may be less common but still happens. The IA Siege of Vraks book even has an entire regiment falling back in abject disarray after heavy enemy fire.

I know. But I'm just saying, Imperial Guard troopers can fight Daemons too. Never remember saying the Death Korps were absolutely fearless... just more willing to do crazy **** than Joe Guardsman.

Burnthem
07-11-2007, 08:36
There was a story a while back (in WD IIRC) about a Greater Daemon attacking a Krieg tank, and the commander just calmly turning round and blasting the ammunition magazine with his Laspistol, detonating all the shells and vapourising the tank, himself and the Daemon.

As for Inq' Stormies fighting Daemons, i agree that they could hold thier own against lesser specimens, however they might struggle against anything bigger :)

Styles
07-11-2007, 08:43
Someone is needed to wipe out the cultists, mutants etc that are with the daemons in may cases.

Spacewolves vs Thousandsons
07-11-2007, 16:06
Inquisitor stormtroopers are not "expendable". They are the best Human soldiers anywhere in the galaxy...

correction they are expendable its easy to get more soldiers and condition them to the same level as their predecessors, as for the grey knights are not expenable at the least because most of their force is stationed around the eye of terror and only a limited number of grey knights are used to deal with deamons throughout the rest of the imperium

as to humans holding their own against demons lesser demons they should be able to hold their provided they all concentrate fire on the demon, or if they are equiped with say a melta or plasma weapon or a lascannon but even if they are mind wiped they may still go insane from the mere presence of a greater demon espcially one of tzneecth, they would be dead from nurgle before they could even open fire. in regards to most large scale demon appearances especially those where greater demons are present grey knights usualy are dispatched to eliminate the threat, or an inquisitor declares the planet diabolis extremus and blow up the planet

BrainFireBob
07-11-2007, 16:30
Oh, they can fight Daemons. It's the winning that's the hard part.

The pestilent 1
07-11-2007, 17:12
Yes. In the same way that a Grot can fight, say, a Land raider.

Chaplain Dionitas
07-11-2007, 18:42
And a Death Korps soldier would tango with a Greater Daemon naked. :D

Shows what no regard for your own life does for you.


Not totally naked he'd still have his cool death's head gas mask on. After that probably nothing else

Klomster
07-11-2007, 22:12
I think you both have no and too much faith in our beloved guards.

All of them would be in some tough **** if opposed to a deamon, any one.

And a normal guardsman are only a dude doing his wartime duty just as people are doing today.

An stormtrooper on the other hand is a veteran of many conflicts and utterly insane if you refer to their wiew of the battle.
F'ex, i wouldn't attack a deamonhost with a knife.

See stormtroopers as the awesome hero dudes in some squad-based action movie.
So they would attack the enemies with knifes and there would be heavy metal music in the background.

Stormtroopers are also having alot more armour and better weaponry than the regular guardsman.

An inquistorial stormtrooper is trained from "families with long-standing traditions" helping the inquisition. (quoted from codex deamonhunters, gw, please don't sue me)

They are specially trained first as stormtroopers, then to combat the demonic.
Not that i say that being trained to combat the demonic makes you super-effective at doing it.

So the inquisitor employs inquis. stormtroopers becouse grey knights are VERY rare, and stoormies are indeed very expendable.

So when the stormtroopers fight the lesser deamons with knifes, swords and hellguns (or local variant) heavy metal musik playing in the background, dying in numbers.
The grey knights run forth and extreme death heavy metal occurs and they start bashing and shooting deamons to bits.

Then the terminators arrive and the death heavy metal volume is raised drastically, then the grand master arrives......
All deamons die from the soundwaves of the ultra death heavy supermetal and the grand master proceeds with beheading the greater deamon.

Maybe even some stormtroopers survive, but they are either brainwashed a couple of times but most likely "purified" in some interesting fashion the inquisitor fancies.

What we learned: Grey knights are dead hard and stormtroopers are cool, useful and/but expendable.

Outlaw289
07-11-2007, 22:41
Inquisitor stormtroopers are not "expendable". They are the best Human soldiers anywhere in the galaxy...

Russian Spetznaz were the best soldiers available to the Soviet Union and all their war scenarios had Spetznaz fulfilling "expendable" roles. They might be the best human special forces but they're still going to take heavy casualties and operate without much regard for their own lives.

Devil-Tears
07-11-2007, 23:27
The best soldiers are usually considered "expendable". Its usually because they're so good at their job that they would rather die than fail.

SwordJon
08-11-2007, 01:26
I figured it was because there's a good chance of them dying even if they accomplish their mission.

Spacewolves vs Thousandsons
13-11-2007, 15:35
Oh, they can fight Daemons. It's the winning that's the hard part.

u make a good point winning is the hard part, but again i say it would really depend on what type of demon they are fighting, and what the trooper in question is using as a weapon a melta, lascannon, or plasma weapon yeah they MIGHT be able to win, but say a las rifle they as good as dead, a knife they may as well be using a feather, or a power sword then they could possibly win provided they aren't fight demons that can fight at range for the most part arent the ordo malleus stormtroopers only used for minor demonic cults or to stall the demons till grey knight reinforcements arrive and hopefully destroy/banish the demon

redbaron998
13-11-2007, 16:46
INQ Stormtroopers are really used more in a role of Get into there quick and hard with Weapons Hot and try to take down the Cutlists or such before Daemons can be summoned.

Once the Daemons are Summoned then the Stormtroopers are eitheir can act in one of 3 ways.

1. Get the Heck outa there and take out the daemons some other way

2. Act as escort for Grey Knights, Space Marines, Inqusitor or someone else better able to handle such an encounter. While a Hellgun blast will like 95% do nothing more than annoy a Daemon, still if you can distract it for even a couple seconds its worth it. You may just buy the time for whoever your with to defeat it or complete some Banishment power.

3. Fight to the death and try to take any of them down with you as you can.

You must remember that the TT states for pretty much anything is dumbed down, for crying out loud a average Space Marine can just about punch through a light tank. Being as this would result in a very boring game (like the hollywood marines rules) The same thing applies to a Daemon, even a lesser daemon. Say a bloodletter could probably take down about half a regiment of average Guardsmen if he could get into the mist of them without having to worry about heavy weapony. Daemons are utterly lethal, hence why Grey Knights have to be so utterly Badass to be able to combat them.

Also the main reason a INQ Stormtrooper can fight against daemons is due to his mental conditioning. AkA he wont go insane at the sight of one (though he probably still will if he were to fight something as powerful as a greater Daemon) This doesnt make them any more effective at destroying them than a regular Stormtrooper...just makes it so they can hang in the fight long enough to maybe make a difference.

That being said I think INQ Stormtroopers are awesome fluff wise and I love them so (goes off to find a way to add some into his Grey Knight list)

Also as for expendability you must remember, EVERYONE is expendable. The High Lords would see an entire Segmentum wiped out if it bought some more time for the Imperium. This is shown many times, an Inqusitor will requisition entire armies of Guard, with the pre knowledge that if any do survive they will have to be killed for thier own good. Such is the sacrifice needed.

Easy E
16-11-2007, 15:29
I see the Stormtroopers as being there to deal with other conventional problems and low level demons. Most of the time, the Ordo Malleus are dealing with other officials in the Imperium, and hence a tough and strong group of bodyguards would be needed as a deterrent, threat, and general gophers. 95% of Inquisitorial actions are before any major demon activity takes place.

For example, Inquisitor E pokes around hive port Primus on Somewhere's World. He finds some smugglers selling contraband. He sends in his Inquisitorial Stormtroopers to capture the smugglers, secure the cargo, and bring them to him for questioning.

This leads our hero into conflict with a local crime family who support the smugglers. Who watches the Inquistors back when he's negotiating information fromt he crime family? That's right, Inquisitorial stomrtroopers.

You have to remember, in the 40K Universe Inqusitors aren't at the frontlines all the time. They are investigating the shadows.

jfrazell
16-11-2007, 16:22
I think you both have no and too much faith in our beloved guards.

All of them would be in some tough **** if opposed to a deamon, any one.

And a normal guardsman are only a dude doing his wartime duty just as people are doing today.

An stormtrooper on the other hand is a veteran of many conflicts and utterly insane if you refer to their wiew of the battle.
F'ex, i wouldn't attack a deamonhost with a knife.

See stormtroopers as the awesome hero dudes in some squad-based action movie.
So they would attack the enemies with knifes and there would be heavy metal music in the background.

Stormtroopers are also having alot more armour and better weaponry than the regular guardsman.

An inquistorial stormtrooper is trained from "families with long-standing traditions" helping the inquisition. (quoted from codex deamonhunters, gw, please don't sue me)

They are specially trained first as stormtroopers, then to combat the demonic.
Not that i say that being trained to combat the demonic makes you super-effective at doing it.

So the inquisitor employs inquis. stormtroopers becouse grey knights are VERY rare, and stoormies are indeed very expendable.

So when the stormtroopers fight the lesser deamons with knifes, swords and hellguns (or local variant) heavy metal musik playing in the background, dying in numbers.
The grey knights run forth and extreme death heavy metal occurs and they start bashing and shooting deamons to bits.

Then the terminators arrive and the death heavy metal volume is raised drastically, then the grand master arrives......
All deamons die from the soundwaves of the ultra death heavy supermetal and the grand master proceeds with beheading the greater deamon.

Maybe even some stormtroopers survive, but they are either brainwashed a couple of times but most likely "purified" in some interesting fashion the inquisitor fancies.

What we learned: Grey knights are dead hard and stormtroopers are cool, useful and/but expendable.

I think ST's are more than capable of defeating demons. You may be an otherworldy creation, but this here meltagun says you die just like everything else...

Klomster
16-11-2007, 18:26
But then we must decide either fluff or gamewise.

Fluff-wise, stormtroopers are in some tough ****.
Game-wise, stormtroopers blast them to death with their rapid-fire hellguns, as deamons tend to only have an not so very awesome inv save. Or maybe i'm wrong.

My post is from a Fluff-wise point of wiew and yes, stormtroopers are very good soildiers, but deamons are dangerous and so only the best is valuable against them.

So when a stormtrooper would be all Metal-musik playing Pwning normal guards he would be not that awesome against a deamon.
And yes a meltagun would insta-banish lower deamon forms, but you almost always need some speacial rituall to banish the greater deamon, that's why you have inquisitors and grey knights.
Grey knights to fight the deamon and Inquisitors to figure out the rituall, in some cases the inquisitor is abscent (dead or investigating from elsewear) so the knights figure it out themselves.

This requires death metal playing and lots of violence most times.
With SUPPORTING stormtroopers, you see, stormtroopers are great support!
And cheap too!
(Compared to a marine, not to mention a grey knight)

Tehkonrad
17-11-2007, 00:49
whats with all this death metal?
I mean ive always thought some light funk makes a way better demon slaying tune :D

Klomster
17-11-2007, 20:31
Maybe for a stormtrooper, but for a grey knight, only the best equipment is allowed and when such weaponry is swung, the purifying odes to the emperor is heard for miles.

If such odes take the form of metal or light funk..... i do not know!

But the emperors shining light will always be upon them who believes, and smite the unbeliever.

And it's more usual in movies to have rock/metal/orchestras playing when fighting warp-like filth.

Sabbad
17-11-2007, 22:50
My post is from a Fluff-wise point of wiew and yes, stormtroopers are very good soildiers, but deamons are dangerous and so only the best is valuable against them.


I don't understand statements like these. How can you possibly generalise the fighting abilities of ALL Daemons? Saying "all Daemons are good in a fight" is like saying "all humans are bad in a fight" - it's a sweeping generalisation that holds absolutely no water.

All Daemons includes Bloodthirsters and Nurglings, just like all humans includes Inquisitor Lords and children.

RexTalon
18-11-2007, 03:49
Your average human cannot fight a daemon prince or greater daemon.

Erm, in game terms they sure can. In fact, I've taken down greater deamons with my regular IG in assault.

I don't see why, in fluff terms, they couldn't. If you threw enough men at something, it's going to go down. I mean, I was just one man, and I'm pretty sure my ex was a deamon, so...

Sephtar II
18-11-2007, 06:22
I always thought that storm troopers were used BEFORE the demon turned up. After all the Ordo Malleus mandate is to prevent demonic incursions meaning get there before they happen. in which case you will hardly need Grey Knights but will need to have someone better than the average guardsmen to kill cultisits/demagogues whoever.

Khaine's Messenger
18-11-2007, 06:39
Can an average human (average only physically...stormtroopers are clearly the best of the best in terms of human soldiers) really fight a greater demon or demon prince (not win necessarily, but not punk out or have his mind melted?)

Having your mind melted is more a side-effect of the mind-bending nausea induced by anything warp-related. Like getting dizzy or coated with flakes of frost when around "magic." If you can get over the initial disorientation, it comes down to the daemon's skill at arms versus yours, and I would wager that Inquisitorial Storm Troopers would be just this side of expecting the various tricks of the daemonic. Keeping in mind that the daemon can be almost as disoriented as you, since being material isn't exactly its natural state.... By which I mean, being a daemon isn't quite enough to give you a default "win." However, if you start talking about daemons that would make the daemons you can field on the table-top quake in their boots (say, Gargatuloth or the Avatar of Khorne)...that's when Storm Troopers aren't going to cut it without some absurd cinematic oomph.

zoodog
18-11-2007, 18:32
I always though the reason that there are noticeably less fear and terror rules in 40K compared to fantasy is that is much easier to get someone whose quite scared to continue to shoot then say charge it with swords. They may not have the presence of mind to reload but there still doing something. So while regular guardsmen may be able to fight demons there likely to be purged afterwards or otherwise insane. The inquisitional ST are better able to keep there wits about them and may only need a mind wipe if they survive the battle.

BrotherAdso
18-11-2007, 18:55
Those fear and terror rules only got eliminated in the 3ed/4ed switch. Daemons are
supposed to be bloody mind-blowing, Ogryn dumb as rocks, and Madboyz...well...mad. However, when they moved the two systems farther apart, they took all the psychology rules out of 40k. So the game mechanics, in this case, aren't supposed to represent any greater 'way things are' in the year 40,000.

That said, I imagine a Stormtrooper, especially an Inquisitorial Stormtrooper, has the training and oomph to hold out against most lesser daemons, especially undivided ones. I liken it to Call of Cthulu -- Joe the basic GI, who has no special mental hardening, only skin-deep confidence in his training and equipment, and most importantly, no knowledge of the Evils Beyond, will likely ruin his uniform and get hacked to bits.

Kurt the Stormtrooper, however, has withstood voluntary waterboarding, has more faith in his gun than his d**k, and is a mean motherf***r on top of having basic knowledge of what he is fighting. The Daemon is still, in all likelihood, stronger, faster, meaner, or even more skilled than Kurt, but Kurt won't be going down all gibbery like Joe. In fact, he stands a reasonable chance if he can pull something quick on the bugger.

But, like Call of Cthulu, even Kurt will snap if he has to see this evil and bury his K-BAR in it more than a couple times.

Make sense?

-Adso

Burnthem
18-11-2007, 21:26
.

But, like Call of Cthulu, even Kurt will snap if he has to see this evil and bury his K-BAR in it more than a couple times.

Make sense?

-Adso

Ah, but is it a power K-BAR??

Justicar Jacob
19-11-2007, 08:31
After reading one of the Cain novels it says all stormtroopers are screened for inquisitorial use. But only something like .014% of them are deemed good/hardcore/tough/mentally capable to fight with the inquisition. All the rest go to the guard.

After being screened and trained Intensely to handle such matters I believe that they can fight daemons with greater efficiency than your average imperial soldier.

This in my imagination would include heavy combat training, all sorts of metal conditioning ,extreme amounts of religious fervor, and constant probing and tampering from inquisitorial psykers.

Spacewolves vs Thousandsons
20-11-2007, 17:02
look it is still gonne be a tough fight for them against greater demons, well the nurgle and tzneetch demons anyway, tzneetch would most likely make the troopers go insane and nurgle's diseases would probably kill the troopers faster than they could fire off a couple rounds, as to lesser demons as long as they avoid tzneetch horrors and flamers they should be able to hold their own. but if they happen to be fighting a greater demon they are only doing so because the grey knight squads are enroute to kick the demons a**, also in one of the space wolves books they encounter a greater demon(unclean one) and the wolves admit that they arent equipped or trained to kill it and withdraw from the fight, so if the space wolves will retreat from a greater demon(granted that it was just a pack of blood claws) im sure that even stormtroopers who are trained to fight them will retreat. considering that a greater demon of tzneetch (novel grey knights) could make an inquisitor go insane stormtroopers wouldnt stand much of a chance

Dakkagor
20-11-2007, 18:34
Someone is needed to wipe out the cultists, mutants etc that are with the daemons in may cases.

Bingo. You can't use grey knights, or even your retinue, for rounding up the plebs, breaking all the fingers and storming all the obscura dens. Thats what the inquisitors use their stormies for, and for providing escorts, and an expendable resource, in frontline combat.


I see the Stormtroopers as being there to deal with other conventional problems and low level demons. Most of the time, the Ordo Malleus are dealing with other officials in the Imperium, and hence a tough and strong group of bodyguards would be needed as a deterrent, threat, and general gophers. 95% of Inquisitorial actions are before any major demon activity takes place.

For example, Inquisitor E pokes around hive port Primus on Somewhere's World. He finds some smugglers selling contraband. He sends in his Inquisitorial Stormtroopers to capture the smugglers, secure the cargo, and bring them to him for questioning.

This leads our hero into conflict with a local crime family who support the smugglers. Who watches the Inquistors back when he's negotiating information fromt he crime family? That's right, Inquisitorial stomrtroopers.

You have to remember, in the 40K Universe Inqusitors aren't at the frontlines all the time. They are investigating the shadows.

What he said :chrome:

dr.oetk3r
21-11-2007, 00:08
Yes. If they couldn't why would they be in the Ordo Malleus in the first place?

2_heads_talking
21-11-2007, 01:06
Bingo. You can't use grey knights, or even your retinue, for rounding up the plebs, breaking all the fingers and storming all the obscura dens. Thats what the inquisitors use their stormies for, and for providing escorts, and an expendable resource, in frontline combat.

I always thought that it was the Enforcers and the Adeptus Arbites who primarily did the rounding up the plebs and dismantling the heretic dens.

Hmm...

BrotherAdso
21-11-2007, 01:49
I always thought that it was the Enforcers and the Adeptus Arbites who primarily did the rounding up the plebs and dismantling the heretic dens.

Hmm...

I think it depends on the dens in question, and the discretion level of the Inquisitor. The Storm Troopers are an 'in house' force, and they can be ordered around quickly and with impunity, not to mention with no worries about corrupt loyalties or psychic vulnerability.

An Inquisitor who needs to break down cells that might have connections in the planetary government CAN'T use the Enforcers/Arbites.

An inquisitor who is in a hurry may not be able to requisition the Enforcers/Arbites quickly enough ("Have you filled out "By the authority of the Emperor Form 13b?").

An Inquisitor who is worried about the seriousness of the cult might need troops hardened to their duties and to the horrors of Chaos-worship (after all, even an Arbites who is fine with arresting hardened criminals would start gibbering at the sight of that Khornate ritual....).

All of which lead me to believe that the Stormtroopers assigned to Inquisitors are prepared for ANYTHING, up to and including the Daemonic. They aren't the preferred troops for such fighting, though, and certainly aren't suited to large scale anti-incursion battles.

-Adso

Grindgodgrind
21-11-2007, 11:31
I'd pretty much say that, yes, Inquisitorial Stormtroopers will be ready to fight against the daemonic. If not, why are the even in the Ordo Malleus? What use to the Order of the Hammer is a body of troops who cannot fight against the ordo's primary target....Daemons.

TheSonOfAbbadon
21-11-2007, 12:29
Erm, in game terms they sure can. In fact, I've taken down greater deamons with my regular IG in assault.

Yeah, and IG are normal people.

They're not semi-brainwashed into believing in the Emperor. They're not soldiers with two years of training. They don't wear hi-tech bulletproof armour and wield laser guns.


In case you didn't notice, I was being sarcastic.

In game terms, a normal person would have no armour save, and all his/her stats would be '2', apart from attacks and wounds, which would be '1'.

But that's going off topic, and is likely to get this thread moved...

Maidel
21-11-2007, 20:24
In the very oldest fluff Imperial guard (even the 'rock hard ones') were rounded up and shot after fighting daemons. Then news was put out that they died to a man stopping the nasties (or got lost in warp storms or died of fever or what ever)

I assume that now there are more daemon out breaks on big worlds (cadia for example) you cant very well wipe out the population of an entire world which you need to preserve as a gate way.

The Guy
21-11-2007, 20:52
Yeah, and IG are normal people.
In game terms, a normal person would have no armour save, and all his/her stats would be '2', apart from attacks and wounds, which would be '1'.

Umm...Why?

Anyway I see ISTs as an inquisitors personal SWAT team. They speed round and complete the less serious objectives,evacuation,retrieving,capturing some place etc.
So this means they won't be expected to fight any of the real big daemons, just the smaller ones and cultists.
If a bigger one comes along then the inquisitor will soon know :)

Maidel
21-11-2007, 20:56
So this means they won't be expected to fight any of the real big daemons, just the smaller ones and cultists.
If a bigger one comes along then the inquisitor will soon know :)


the only flaw I see with this is that no one told the Greater Daemon.

In a battle you have to be expected to hold your own against any of the opposition - you cant just say 'hang on, I cant fight you, just wait for me to go get my big silver mates...'


They are their to kill the little stuff - and hold the big stuff up for long enough for the grey knights/ inquisitors to get there to deal with them. If they survive the battle - chances are they will get euthanised anyway.

The Guy
21-11-2007, 20:59
the only flaw I see with this is that no one told the Greater Daemon.

In a battle you have to be expected to hold your own against any of the opposition - you cant just say 'hang on, I cant fight you, just wait for me to go get my big silver mates...'


They are their to kill the little stuff - and hold the big stuff up for long enough for the grey knights/ inquisitors to get there to deal with them. If they survive the battle - chances are they will get euthanised anyway.

Never said they would do that. I was simply saying that the screams over the vox from the stormtroopers would be enough of an indication that something badass just pwned them.

Maidel
21-11-2007, 21:00
Never said they would do that. I was simply saying that the screams over the vox from the stormtroopers would be enough of an indication that something badass just pwned them.

so what we are saying is that they are their to be an alarm system - when they all start screaming and you can hear their faces melting over the vox - it means something big just poped up :D

The Guy
21-11-2007, 21:03
Pretty much :p

RexTalon
21-11-2007, 21:40
Yeah, and IG are normal people.

They're not semi-brainwashed into believing in the Emperor. They're not soldiers with two years of training. They don't wear hi-tech bulletproof armour and wield laser guns.


In case you didn't notice, I was being sarcastic.

In game terms, a normal person would have no armour save, and all his/her stats would be '2', apart from attacks and wounds, which would be '1'.

But that's going off topic, and is likely to get this thread moved...

I don't get it. I was pointing out that regular IG can beat a greater deamon in CC in the game, so I don't see why a stormie couldn't do it.

A real person might not be able to do it, but enough people devoted to a common cause could. If you throw enough men at something (anything) it's not impossible.

Maidel
21-11-2007, 21:45
A real person might not be able to do it, but enough people devoted to a common cause could. If you throw enough men at something (anything) it's not impossible.

Thats what the Russians thought in the second world war...

Kandarin
21-11-2007, 21:58
Thats what the Russians thought in the second world war...

It worked, didn't it?

Maidel
21-11-2007, 21:59
It worked, didn't it?

No... not really - the germans would have won if they hadnt starved/frozen to death like every other army that tries to invade Russia.

But throwing men at the enemy - it doesnt work.

Nazguire
21-11-2007, 21:59
Thats what the Russians thought in the second world war...

And were generally proved right (however horrible the casualties) "Quantity has a quality all of its own"

Think people are assuming that Greater Daemon/Daemon Prince power level type daemons are common. They aren't. It requires a massive ritual and summon and sacrifice (etc, dead babies, crucified virgins, Oprah, the lot.) to summon one, let alone Ka'Bandra or someone similar.

Grey Knights being only a Chapter of Space Marines (though there are hints of them being a bit larger) means that realistically, they would 9 times out of 10, be nowhere near a daemonic intrusion. So that leaves only the Inquisitor, requisitioned units and the Inquistional Stormtroopers.

So yes, Ordo Malleus Stormtroopers would and do fight Greater Daemons. Whether they succeed or not is another question entirely.

Maidel
21-11-2007, 22:03
Grey Knights being only a Chapter of Space Marines (though there are hints of them being a bit larger) means that realistically, they would 9 times out of 10, be nowhere near a daemonic intrusion. So that leaves only the Inquisitor, requisitioned units and the Inquistional Stormtroopers.


yea - but 9 times out of 10 they would be near by if a Greater Daemon was summoned - as you said yourself its a far larger event - and something that would actually draw their attention.


tbh tho - daemons will fade out on their own if you can ignore them for long enough (and they dont cause enough death/carnage to keep their gods happy enough to keep them in this world)

Nazguire
21-11-2007, 22:11
yea - but 9 times out of 10 they would be near by if a Greater Daemon was summoned - as you said yourself its a far larger event - and something that would actually draw their attention.


tbh tho - daemons will fade out on their own if you can ignore them for long enough (and they dont cause enough death/carnage to keep their gods happy enough to keep them in this world)

There's no feasible way they can be there 9/10 times. They are only roughly 1000 Marines or so. Even if it was 1 Grey Knight a planet that's still only 1000 planets out of 1,000,000 covered.:p

Maidel
21-11-2007, 22:15
There's no feasible way they can be there 9/10 times. They are only roughly 1000 Marines or so. Even if it was 1 Grey Knight a planet that's still only 1000 planets out of 1,000,000 covered.:p

Ah -but they dont have to be everywhere at once - as we said above greater daemons arent your run of the mill, pop up all over the place - and grey knights dont just turn up for the fun of it.

Having a planet that has enough cultists to sacrifice enough people to make a greater daemon - chances are someone imperial has noticed and has called the inquisition in who requisition the grey knights.

Nazguire
21-11-2007, 22:21
Ah -but they dont have to be everywhere at once - as we said above greater daemons arent your run of the mill, pop up all over the place - and grey knights dont just turn up for the fun of it.

Having a planet that has enough cultists to sacrifice enough people to make a greater daemon - chances are someone imperial has noticed and has called the inquisition in who requisition the grey knights.

And then you have the fact that even if 1% of worlds at one time had a greater daemonic summoning (regardless whether it will succeed or not- either through military intervention or just plain cock ups by the cultists) that is still 10,000 worlds at one time. Even if it is 0.5 percent, that's 5000 worlds. 0.25 per cent and thats 2500 worlds.

Still far more for the Grey Knights to be at every Greater Deamonic summoning. Granted, they'd try and be at at as many as humanly (or super-humanly as the case may be) possible, but it still way too many to be at all the time. Even the Inquisition would find it hard to get on to all the worlds that have something like this happening.

Remember cultists are sneaky buggers (unless they are Khornate I suppose). They know they are in the minority. They know that if they openly opposed Imperial authority they'd be exterminated quite efficiently. By the time a Greater Daemon summoning could even be attempted they'd have to have cut off all lines of escape for Imperial loyalists if they wanted to 'safely' summon the daemon.

It's not as if the Inquisitor has a Spidey-sense and a batmobile to take him to the hot spot immediately.:D

Maidel
21-11-2007, 22:27
And then you have the fact that even if 1% of worlds at one time had a greater daemonic summoning (regardless whether it will succeed or not- either through military intervention or just plain cock ups by the cultists) that is still 10,000 worlds at one time. Even if it is 0.5 percent, that's 5000 worlds. 0.25 per cent and thats 2500 worlds.

Not dissagreeing with your maths - but if you read books like Ravenor/Eisenhorn - greater daemons appear to not only be rare - but SUPER INSANELY rare.

Think about it - the greatest most lavish show and the death of 10s if not 100s of people in the presence of Fulgrim managed to summon 2 demonettes (in the HH book).

yes - a full measily TWO (ok it might have been 3 or 4 i cant remember, but you get the point)


I get the impression that appart from full daemon armies pouring from the eot you are looking at a greater daemon summoning every 10+ years across the entire galaxy.

Remember summoning 1 plague bearer would be HORRIFIC - you dont need to summon a great unclean one - 1 plague bearer in modern earth could destroy half of london before a tank finally stopped it.

Nazguire
21-11-2007, 22:44
Not dissagreeing with your maths - but if you read books like Ravenor/Eisenhorn - greater daemons appear to not only be rare - but SUPER INSANELY rare.

Which makes them even harder to find (you could narrow your search I suppose, greater chance of it happening in Segemntum Obscurus then say, the Eastern Fringe. And as I said before, while they are super-rare, they are also super secret. Or try to be. And given that the Grey Knights can't instanty appear halfway across the galaxy (they do have quite fast ships apparently, but you get my point) and with the delays of Warp travel and communication, I believe that most times, the Inquisition can put in a demand for the Grey Knights if he knows a Company is nearby but otherwise has to 'rough it' with the Stormtroopers. (And dozen Imperial Guard regiments he assumed command of :D)



Think about it - the greatest most lavish show and the death of 10s if not 100s of people in the presence of Fulgrim managed to summon 2 demonettes (in the HH book).


It was 6 :D Which was a darn good effort seeing as none of them had ever participated in a daemonic ritual (whether conscious of that fact or not...;))



I get the impression that appart from full daemon armies pouring from the eot you are looking at a greater daemon summoning every 10+ years across the entire galaxy.


Then statistically it's so rare in an Imperium of a million-plus planets there would be no way of knowing where it would happen without knowing before hand where it's going to happen lol. That's so far in the 0.00000% of chances it happening, let alone having an idea where it's going to be, let alone being able to get the Grey Knights (who are on other daemonic killy missions spread across the galaxy) for them to bother. I'd say a fair bit more then that, especially around the Obscurus Segmentum.



Remember summoning 1 plague bearer would be HORRIFIC - you dont need to summon a great unclean one - 1 plague bearer in modern earth could destroy half of london before a tank finally stopped it.

Destroy half of London? By introducing Nurgle's Rot and the Plague of Unbelief maybe and creating a million zombies... hee hee.

But if a bolt shell (or three) can put down a Plaguebearer in False Gods and Flight of the Eisenstein, I'd say a Tank would be overkill.

If you've lost half of London to a single Plaguebearer (excluding the diseases it spreads and other side effects) then I'd probably say you're looking at a Greater Daemon.:)

Maidel
21-11-2007, 22:58
And as I said before, while they are super-rare, they are also super secret. Or try to be.

It was 6 :D Which was a darn good effort seeing as none of them had ever participated in a daemonic ritual (whether conscious of that fact or not...;))

Meh - 2/6 whoes counting between friends :D

TRY - thats the important word. Basically my point is that if it takes a full blown opera with the deaths of hundreds to call a few measily demonettes for only a few minutes (10 minutes of death and they fade out..) its going to take THOUSANDS of deaths and THOUSANDS of cultists over years to create a greater daemon so much time and effort (like infecting and entire planet with the shards in Ravenor - it was enough to get a senior inquisator to come look and if he hadnt been so damn stubborn he would have called for the Grey knights straight off - but then again thats not heroic...)



Destroy half of London? By introducing Nurgle's Rot and the Plague of Unbelief maybe and creating a million zombies... hee hee.

Well yea - that was sort of the idea - one plague bearer is FAR scarier than a bloodletter. The bloodletter goes out screaming and butchering, calling in every 'swat' team in a 100 mile radius and soon gets shot to pieces by a hail of gun fire.

One plague bearer crawls through the back streets for nights on end infecting 1000s of people before its finally cornered.



But if a bolt shell (or three) can put down a Plaguebearer in False Gods and Flight of the Eisenstein, I'd say a Tank would be overkill.

wasnt it LOTS of bolt shells... and they are each an explosive shell far more powerful than a rifle bullet... but yea - the tanks over kill


If you've lost half of London to a single Plaguebearer (excluding the diseases it spreads and other side effects) then I'd probably say you're looking at a Greater Daemon.

Well it is NOW - but it started off as a wee little nurgling and all the horror and disease made it FAT! Plus someone gave it water after midnight...


PS - sorry for grouping together some of your stuff - its only letting me put in 4 groups of quote tags.

RexTalon
21-11-2007, 22:58
Ah -but they dont have to be everywhere at once - as we said above greater daemons arent your run of the mill, pop up all over the place...
Unless you're playing 40k, then chaos gets to field greater deamons and chaos marines ALL THE TIME IN EVERY SINGLE GAME!!!! OMG !!!111oneoneeleven

Maidel
21-11-2007, 23:01
Unless you're playing 40k, then chaos gets to field greater deamons and chaos marines ALL THE TIME IN EVERY SINGLE GAME!!!! OMG !!!111oneoneeleven

Yea - but each game would come under full armies pouring out of the EOT - they come with daemons - Chaos space marine armies arent exactly run of the mill either.

Nazguire
21-11-2007, 23:11
Meh - 2/6 whoes counting between friends :D

TRY - thats the important word. Basically my point is that if it takes a full blown opera with the deaths of hundreds to call a few measily demonettes for only a few minutes (10 minutes of death and they fade out..) its going to take THOUSANDS of deaths and THOUSANDS of cultists over years to create a greater daemon so much time and effort (like infecting and entire planet with the shards in Ravenor - it was enough to get a senior inquisator to come look.

See, there isn't any hard and fast 'Daemonic Summon for Dummoning' book that people read to summon 'Nazguire- Greater Daemon of Awesome and Devil Horns'. And most of the background pieces I've read about Daemonic Summoning (watch out Southern USA) suggest it is indeed the deaths of hundred to thousands, in a relatively short time, with a similar theme to the God in point (Blood for Khorne, Disease for Nurgle, Excess for Slaanesh and Betrayal for Tzeentch- broadly speaking).

And if it happens hard and fast in conjunction with the super sneaky cults that doesnt' give the Inquisitor much time if any to round up the Grey Knights unless they are nearby. And if it is as rare as you imply it is, then you might as well just give up (again, unless you're nearby) and order a Navy ship to bombard the planet, because by the time you finally arrive with the requisite forces, it'd be a daemon world anyway (again broadly speaking and again this is assuming that there isn't a major Inquisitional presence there or nearby anyways).

For it to be as rare as you say, statistically, mathematically, logically, there'd be little to no chance for an Inquisitor of any Ordo (they are rare to begin with) to find out and respond in kind before it became too much of an issue for the Grey Knights to deal with. Armageddon was an exception as it was such a prolonged conflict. Most of these cults seem to spring up out of nowhere (having operated under secrecy for so long) and begin their summoning in the Hive/fields/towns/asteroids/whatever as soon as they can because they then haev the resources (or bodies...) to pull it off.




Well yea - that was sort of the idea - one plague bearer is FAR scarier than a bloodletter. The bloodletter goes out screaming and butchering, calling in every 'swat' team in a 100 mile radius and soon gets shot to pieces by a hail of gun fire.

One plague bearer crawls through the back streets for nights on end infecting 1000s of people before its finally cornered.

Well...going down the same path.
A Bloodletter makes everyone go batshit crazy and want to kill everyone. Cue cockney accented brawlers by the million following 'Da Man In Da Red!' down along the River Thames.
A Tzeentchian Horror or Flamer corrupts and mutates everything in sight, splitting into more Horrors/Flamers and creating hundreds of spawn
A Daemonette makes everyone batshit horny and begins the moral corruption and degradation of Buckingham Palace.

Don't understand what you're getting at?:confused: lol:p





wasnt it LOTS of bolt shells... and they are each an explosive shell far more powerful than a rifle bullet... but yea - the tanks over kill
Lots to a Space Marine because generally whatever they shot at that was mansized with a bolt shell simply died. No picks itself up. No carries on as if nothing is missing (other then its head). It was something entirely new. More then one bolt shell to a human sized being, daemonic or otherwise, at the time of the Heresy, even 'now' would seem a lot, given the power of individual shells.

Glad you agree:p

Maidel
21-11-2007, 23:17
then you might as well just give up (again, unless you're nearby) and order a Navy ship to bombard the planet, because by the time you finally arrive with the requisite forces, it'd be a daemon world anyway (again broadly speaking and again this is assuming that there isn't a major Inquisitional presence there or nearby anyways).

Being an avid imperial guard player and loving comissars with their exicution rule - I dont see a problem with this result :D



Well...going down the same path.
A Bloodletter makes everyone go batshit crazy and want to kill everyone. Cue cockney accented brawlers by the million following 'Da Man In Da Red!' down along the River Thames.
A Tzeentchian Horror or Flamer corrupts and mutates everything in sight, splitting into more Horrors/Flamers and creating hundreds of spawn

Yea - but both of these are very obvious and would draw attention to a 'supernatural' being damn fast - illness is very common and could easily become pandemic before anyone even noticed that one rotting carcus that just wont sit still (and yes - lots of people killing each other isnt necessarily supernatural - but it would draw a big police prescence - something illnesses dont do)


A Daemonette makes everyone batshit horny and begins the moral corruption and degradation of Buckingham Palace.

I dont have an issue with this - in fact, most people would probably welcome it and it just sounds like my house on a saturday night (i wish...)

Nazguire
21-11-2007, 23:32
Being an avid imperial guard player and loving comissars with their exicution rule - I dont see a problem with this result :D

Yea - but both of these are very obvious and would draw attention to a 'supernatural' being damn fast - illness is very common and could easily become pandemic before anyone even noticed that one rotting carcus that just wont sit still (and yes - lots of people killing each other isnt necessarily supernatural - but it would draw a big police prescence -

Not really (asides the Horror thing of course). People riot all the time. It brings out the police yeah, and it causes the downfall of countries, (Sierra Leone for an example). Having people go crazy because they have no restrictions is fairly common too. It's called anarchy. Brings out police presence.

An epidemic of the proportion you are suggesting, even half of what you are suggesting...a QUARTER of what you are suggesting would bring out the police for quarantine duties.

Imperialis_Dominatus
21-11-2007, 23:39
Well, I've always assumed the GK were bigger than Codex standard, bringing into play their role in a battle and their organization. Plus they have fast response craft that can take them places quickly. While they can't exactly be there all the time, waiting on the Greater Daemon to show up, once it does (or an Inquisitor gets hella lucky and finds out beforehand), the GK will show up damn sharpish to put the Greater Daemon's ass in order. That's how I envisioned it. Stormies, PDF, Arbites, etc. hold the line and deal with the little nasties while GK show up and kill the GD. If the lesser soldiers end up killing the GD, well, hey, great for them. Yippee, party, we're cool and all that. Now prepare them for summary execution for taint from the Warp.

GKHERO
22-11-2007, 00:22
ISTs can handle Lesser Daemons.. and even that they struggle if Lesser Daemons have any daemonic gifts powerful enough to withstand their attacks and get close. Not to mention any psychic warp powers they might have..

For anything bigger than Lesser Daemons, they need Grey Knights. And most Greater Daemons and Daemon Princes require Grey Knight Terminators, Brother-Captains or Grand Masters to dispatch.

Nazguire
22-11-2007, 10:00
ISTs can handle Lesser Daemons.. and even that they struggle if Lesser Daemons have any daemonic gifts powerful enough to withstand their attacks and get close. Not to mention any psychic warp powers they might have..

For anything bigger than Lesser Daemons, they need Grey Knights. And most Greater Daemons and Daemon Princes require Grey Knight Terminators, Brother-Captains or Grand Masters to dispatch.

Nup, disagree.

Too many stories of Imperial Guard and Space Marines banishing daemons great and small without the aid of an Inquisitor or Grey Knight.

It's not physically possible for an Inquisitor or Grey Knight to be at every daemonic incursion. Not. Physically. Possible.

Burnthem
22-11-2007, 10:59
Nup, disagree.

Too many stories of Imperial Guard and Space Marines banishing daemons great and small without the aid of an Inquisitor or Grey Knight.

It's not physically possible for an Inquisitor or Grey Knight to be at every daemonic incursion. Not. Physically. Possible.

Yes, but it only takes a handful of Grey Knights or maybe only one uber-captain to bring down a greater Daemon, whereas it would take an entire company of guard or marines along with alot of luck and quite a few coffins afterwards :D

Farmers with pitchforks could bring down a bloodthirster, if you threw about 3000 of them at it :)

KwisatchHaderach
22-11-2007, 11:00
Marines and armies of Guardsmen can kill a Greater Demon or Demon Prince in a pinch, I imagine, but it takes them busting out the real heavy artillery.

Also remember that there are 4000 or so Grey Knights, and several other Space Marines chapters (like the Exorcists) who are dedicated to demon squashing. There are probably upwards of a dozen Grey Knight wannabe Chapters out there runnin' around.

I mean, if you think about it though, a squad of Grey Knights can defeat a *******' Demon Primarch for cryin' out loud. Those boys know what they are doing.

Nazguire
22-11-2007, 11:31
Yes, but it only takes a handful of Grey Knights or maybe only one uber-captain to bring down a greater Daemon, whereas it would take an entire company of guard or marines along with alot of luck and quite a few coffins afterwards :D

Farmers with pitchforks could bring down a bloodthirster, if you threw about 3000 of them at it :)

How do we know that it only takes a handful of Grey Knights to take down a Greater Daemon. Is there any background to suggest so?

The Grey Knights are trained to kill daemons especially. They are trained to resist the lure of Chaos. Kill Chaos. Etc.

It does not make them Superman in Terminator Armour. While casualties would be lower, they'd still suffer a fair bit taking down a Bloodthirster unless they had overwhelming numbers.

KwisatchHaderach
22-11-2007, 12:01
It does not make them Superman in Terminator Armour. While casualties would be lower, they'd still suffer a fair bit taking down a Bloodthirster unless they had overwhelming numbers.

Where is the Fluff to support THIS? Grey Knights are Demon Kryptonite. Your average bloodthirster is toast against a few GKs.

pookie
22-11-2007, 13:46
summoning Daemons requires a sacrifice, the bigger/better the sacrifce the biger and better the daemon incursion would be.

sacrifice a tech adept/gaurdsman and youd prob get a Nurgling, sacrifce someone a hell of lot more important ( Cheif Astropath/Navigator/Inquisitor) and you may well get a Bloodthirster ( or other GD of one of the 4 powers ), so it wouldnt take thousands or deaths over a long period, just one decent sacrifce would do the trick.

The Guy
22-11-2007, 19:03
I'd imagine that all the psychic energy released from a summoning of a greater daemon would tell pretty much every inquisitor where it is...

Klomster
22-11-2007, 19:35
Look, the answer to the main question is simple....


Yes!

Burnthem
22-11-2007, 19:46
Look, the answer to the main question is simple....


Yes!


Its taken us 80 posts to get to that :D

Maidel
22-11-2007, 20:09
Look, the answer to the main question is simple....


Yes!

Its not about the getting there - its the journey that counts :D

GKHERO
22-11-2007, 20:54
I think the answer to this question can be portrayed ingame without any trouble.

1) Take a Greater Daemon or Daemon Prince.
2) Take 1-10 units of IST.
3) Have the Greater Daemon or DP start away from the IST with reasonable distance.
4) Roll to Hit/wound/assault as usual.
5) Results.

Then do the same with Grey Knights and Grey Knight Terminators. Factor in Brother-Captains or Grand Masters accordingly. Same goes for IST heavy weapons and any psychic powers being used.

You'll notice that the more units you have = greater success. More heavy weapons = greater success. Anti-daemon psychic powers = greater success.

However, you'll also notice that your Kill to Death ratio with the IST will be significantly different compared to Grey Knight units, and Grey Knight Terminator units.

(then you realize that regular GK squads fail horribly compared to heavily armed IST in terms of price-effectivness)

Nazguire
22-11-2007, 20:54
Where is the Fluff to support THIS? Grey Knights are Demon Kryptonite. Your average bloodthirster is toast against a few GKs.

Where is the background to support that? Your 'average' Bloodthirster (if there is such a thing) is not 'toast' against a few Grey Knights.

Yeah, it may have a higher chance of being banished by them then say if it was a group of run-of-the-mill Marines doing the trick, but that giant axe and whip it has in each hand don't sit there idly.

Honestly, where has it said that the Grey Knights are tantamount to invincible against Greater Daemons?

It's said they are a specialised fighting force. They are equipped to fight daemons. They are trained to fight daemons.

That doesn't mean that as soon as they walk next to a Greater Daemon that the Greater Daemon fizzles and shrieks 'I'm melting, I'm melting'.

It means they have a higher chance of success. Much higher maybe, but not definite.

The SAS today are trained against terrorist insurgent threats, yet they still suffer casualties in Iraq and Afghanistan. Same principle applies. Just because you are equipped and trained specifically to fight a specific target doesn't mean you can just merrily stroll up and do it impervious to harm or consequences.

Maidel
22-11-2007, 21:04
That doesn't mean that as soon as they walk next to a Greater Daemon that the Greater Daemon fizzles and shrieks 'I'm melting, I'm melting'.

Yea - but it would be damn funny tho :D

GKHERO
22-11-2007, 21:36
Fact: At longer distances, normal Tactical Marine squads are better than standard Grey Knight squads vs. Lesser and Greater Daemons. That's IF they don't get corrupted, lured or any other imaginative insanity you can think of and shoot eachother in the face. At closer range, Grey Knights are better due to their Nemesis Force Weapons. Stormbolters just don't cut it like a Lascannon.

Nazguire
22-11-2007, 21:37
Fact: At longer distances, normal Tactical Marine squads are better than standard Grey Knight squads vs. Lesser and Greater Daemons. That's IF they don't get corrupted, lured or any other imaginative insanity you can think of and shoot eachother in the face. At closer range, Grey Knights are better due to their Nemesis Force Weapons. Stormbolters just don't cut it like a Lascannon.

Hence why the Knights teleport in ;) lol:D Get what you're saying but.

Maidel
22-11-2007, 21:41
Fact: At longer distances, normal Tactical Marine squads are better than standard Grey Knight squads vs. Lesser and Greater Daemons. That's IF they don't get corrupted, lured or any other imaginative insanity you can think of and shoot eachother in the face. At closer range, Grey Knights are better due to their Nemesis Force Weapons. Stormbolters just don't cut it like a Lascannon.


Actually - im not sure I aggree. Sure if you are out of bolter range (then you set up wrong in the first place...) the lascannon is going to be more effective - but it is only one shot, with about a 50% chance of hitting/hurting something. Not to mention the fact that you took an entire squad of 10 marines to fire one shot and they cant do anything else for an entire turn.

8 bolters, 1 lascannon, 1 flamer or 10 storm bolters....

at less than 30 inches ill take the storm bolters thanks very much.

GKHERO
22-11-2007, 21:58
Any less than 30" and I'd take Grey Knights as well. But you wound on 6s with Stormbolters.

Maidel
22-11-2007, 22:02
Any less than 30" and I'd take Grey Knights as well. But you wound on 6s with Stormbolters.


Well seeing as most boards are 48' and you can se up 12' into it....

never gonna wanna take anything else really.

And when you say wounding on 6's I assume you mean against greater daemons lessor daemons arent toughness 5+.

Even if you were wounding on 6's I would still prefer 20 of those shots to 9 bolters and 1 lascannon

KwisatchHaderach
23-11-2007, 00:44
Where is the background to support that? Your 'average' Bloodthirster (if there is such a thing) is not 'toast' against a few Grey Knights.

Yeah, it may have a higher chance of being banished by them then say if it was a group of run-of-the-mill Marines doing the trick, but that giant axe and whip it has in each hand don't sit there idly.

Honestly, where has it said that the Grey Knights are tantamount to invincible against Greater Daemons?

It's said they are a specialised fighting force. They are equipped to fight daemons. They are trained to fight daemons.

That doesn't mean that as soon as they walk next to a Greater Daemon that the Greater Daemon fizzles and shrieks 'I'm melting, I'm melting'.

It means they have a higher chance of success. Much higher maybe, but not definite.

The SAS today are trained against terrorist insurgent threats, yet they still suffer casualties in Iraq and Afghanistan. Same principle applies. Just because you are equipped and trained specifically to fight a specific target doesn't mean you can just merrily stroll up and do it impervious to harm or consequences.


Its really quite simple. The Grey Knights aren't just a group of Space Marines with special training to defeat demons: they have psychic powers, incantations, weapons specifically meant to be anathema to demons.

Essentially, you are comparing apples and oranges, because the Grey Knights are actually given very special equipment etc that makes them HIGHLY effective where even a normal marine would not be. The example of Ghargatuloth rings in my mind, where a company of Grey Knights and a grand master essentially took on an entire planet swarming with demons and then banished a demon prince.

They may take some casualties, but it wouldn't even be a tenth of what a normal marine force would take probably: after all, how many Grey Knights, along with a Grand Master, did it take to banish Angron, probably the biggest demonic threat of all time?

Nazguire
23-11-2007, 03:01
Its really quite simple. The Grey Knights aren't just a group of Space Marines with special training to defeat demons: they have psychic powers, incantations, weapons specifically meant to be anathema to demons.


Yes I know that they have special training (hence daemonhunters) and special equipment. Which is what I've said before. The Exorcists are a group of Space Marines that have special training and circumstances (illuminati) to defeat daemons.

Then again so do normal Space Marines. They have that 'unshakeable faith and courage' that helps them against anything.

So do Inquisitorial Stormtroopers. And Inquisitors. And Sanctioned Psykers. And Exorcists. And Confessors, Preachers, the lot.
Having items and training and powers and everything that is designed to defeat daemons and Chaos isn't something that the Imperium lacks. It doesn't make you that much more special then anyone else. It just means you're specialised for one task



Essentially, you are comparing apples and oranges,

They are still fruit that grows from a tree



because the Grey Knights are actually given very special equipment etc that makes them HIGHLY effective where even a normal marine would not be. The example of Ghargatuloth rings in my mind, where a company of Grey Knights and a grand master essentially took on an entire planet swarming with demons and then banished a demon prince.

Ben Counter book are you talking about?
What you just said there. I want you to step back and think about how statistically and realistically impossible it is for you, or a Grey Knight or Hell, even Jesus to take on an entire planet of monsters dedicated to your destruction.

And yes. I know that the Grey Knights are specialised and highly effective at killing daemons. Haven't once said that they aren't. However. They are not invincible Supermen minus the weakness to Kryptonite. I have read more then one reference to Grey Knights getting stomped and normal Marines killing a Bloodthirster (Eye of Terror aftermath IA for one reference).



They may take some casualties, but it wouldn't even be a tenth of what a normal marine force would take probably: after all, how many Grey Knights, along with a Grand Master, did it take to banish Angron, probably the biggest demonic threat of all time?

It took
The Space Wolves Chapter.
Numerous Imperial Guard Regiments.
A company of Grey Knights.

Grand Master Aurelian, the Grand Master of the Grey Knights, along with 100 other Grey Knight Terminators, worked in conjunction with the rest of the Armageddon defences. They didn't stroll in, wave their wand and banish Angron in time to go off to their next appointment. They also lost 100 Grey Knight Terminators and Aurelian. Practically their entire force.
The Space Wolves and Imperial Guard also took extreme casualties.

If the Grey Knights were as invincible and great as you are trying to tell me, then the Space Wolves would have just left them to it by plunking them in front of the World Eaters, Angron, 12 Bloodthirster Bodyguard and assorted daemon princes and went off.

But in order for them to even have a hope in Hell of beating them, they had to work extremely well with everyone else.

I can be specialised to hunt killer monkeys. So I have a monkey suit, eat bananas and scratch myself constantly in order to blend in with the monkeys. If I just stroll into a killer monkey nest, just because I know the Code of the Monkey isn't mean I'm going to wipe them out and make fur coats out of them without a scratch. It just means I know how to

hunt monkeys effectively and minimise the risk to myself and everyone else.

KwisatchHaderach
23-11-2007, 03:07
I don't even really get what you are arguing. The Grey Knights are very very good at killing demons. Yes...but you honestly think it would take more than a handful or so to kill a bloodthirster? Why? Based on what exactly?

This is a rather silly argument all told, because we are just talking past each other. I am not saying that Grey Knights are uber unstoppable, just that the normal paradigm we understand where a Bloodthirster would tear through entire battle groups doesn't apply to the Grey Knights: they wouldn't be afraid, and they would know exactly what to do (which is half the battle already really), and they would have the weaponry to do exactly that.

If the Grey Knights' specialization was as trivial as you seem to be implying, common sense dictates that the best way to fight demons would be with legion upon legion of heavily armed Imperial Guardsmen.

Icarus
23-11-2007, 03:21
How do we know that it only takes a handful of Grey Knights to take down a Greater Daemon. Is there any background to suggest so?


In the First Armageddon War, 100 Grey Knights managed to not only defeat numerous Khornate daemons, including Bloodthirsters, but banished Angron himself. Is it so unreasonable to extrapolate from this that a small number of Grey Knights can take on a single Bloodthrister and win?

And in response to the original question: yes they are capable, otherwise why would they be used at all?

RexTalon
23-11-2007, 04:33
Yea - but each game would come under full armies pouring out of the EOT - they come with daemons - Chaos space marine armies arent exactly run of the mill either.

Now... Where did I put my BS flag...

Highborn
23-11-2007, 05:49
Fact: At longer distances, normal Tactical Marine squads are better than standard Grey Knight squads vs. Lesser and Greater Daemons. That's IF they don't get corrupted, lured or any other imaginative insanity you can think of and shoot eachother in the face. At closer range, Grey Knights are better due to their Nemesis Force Weapons. Stormbolters just don't cut it like a Lascannon.


I'm sorry, what? You've given the Space Marines a Lascannon, but you haven't the good grace to give the Grey Knights a Psycannon - weapon of choice for long-ranged daemonslaying? You know, blessed, inscribed, psychically charged bolts anathema to the denizens of the warp, and half the reason Grey Knights are so good against daemons at range?

Klomster
23-11-2007, 15:40
Note, in the book grey knights it's not a company of grey knights, i think its like 25-28 knights/terminators and a brother captain.

And the deamon they banish is a deamon prince, not deamon prince like that big chaos space marine thing.
It's a prince of deamons, tzeeentch right hand the 1000 face super deamon of doom.
(Spoiler warning)

1 knight fall while charging a imperial guard company +alot of SOB.

4-5 including a terminator fall when they fight numerous super deamon-minions in a very, very infected room where gargatu-dude is spawning.

Imperial guard entered the room but got insane after less than 1 sec, commisar does not but die horribly at the hand of his crazy troops.

How would normal marines fare? Dunno, but in Armaggedon (Black library) a space marine picks up a deamon weapon, kills 2-3 with it, but 30 sec after he is corrupted and attacks his fellow marines.

TheBlueGrassGamer
23-11-2007, 16:23
Greetings,


How would normal marines fare? Dunno, but in Armaggedon (Black library) a space marine picks up a deamon weapon, kills 2-3 with it, but 30 sec after he is corrupted and attacks his fellow marines.

And yet, the entire Relictors Chapter of the Space Marines gained the censor and wrath the of the Holy Order of the Inquisition because the higher echelons of the Relictors used daemonic weapons and artifacts against the Chaotic forces.

In a round about way, the Exorcists Chapter owe their existence to the daemonic. Established by a conclave of radical Inquisitors, each and every member of the Exorcists is subjected to a 'controlled' daemonic possession under the watchful eyes of an Inquisitor and priest of the Imperial Creed.

The daemonic presence was banished, and the Exorcists were sent into the Eye of Terror to engaged in their first trial by combat. Those that were not subsequently possessed once more (and thus, purged by either the accompanying Grey Knights or their fellow Battle-Brothers) made their way into the chapter.

Kinda shows that 'normal' Space Marines can hold their own with the forces of the daemonic, don't ya think?

Thanks,
Bluegrass

TheSonOfAbbadon
23-11-2007, 17:57
Exorcists aren't normal, though.

As you said, they were subjected to a controlled daemonic possession. It's like being immunised against the flu, a weakened form of the flu is put in your bloodstream to make your body able to recognise and fight the flu, it's basically the same with this daemon possession.

feelnopain666
23-11-2007, 18:41
Sometimes the Storm Troopers are executed to prevent daemonic infection. What a crappy job!

Burnthem
23-11-2007, 19:01
Sometimes the Storm Troopers are executed to prevent daemonic infection. What a crappy job!


Noone ever reads the small print on the contract :D

On another note, is there any official place thats known of for Inq Stormies to be trained at? Or is it a case of an individual Inquisitor training his own retinue or what?

Maidel
23-11-2007, 19:04
Sometimes the Storm Troopers are executed to prevent daemonic infection. What a crappy job!

Yea - they dont put that bit on the recuiting posters :D

Spacewolves vs Thousandsons
23-11-2007, 21:39
On another note, is there any official place thats known of for Inq Stormies to be trained at? Or is it a case of an individual Inquisitor training his own retinue or what?

the ordo malleus is stationed on saturns various moons, well thats where the grey kights fortress monestary is and the inquisition does have a a space station in close proximity to the eye of terror where a considerable chunk of ordo malleus forces are stationed, mostly grey knights though, i would assume they would be trained at one of these 2 locations, more likely the first one.

Easy E
24-11-2007, 12:40
Well, the Ibnquisition has fortresses scattered all over the Galaxy. Some are famous and well know, while others are secret. So, Inq stormtroopers are probably billeted there for re-training.

I would guess they start out as ordinary (Is there an ordinary stormtrooper?) stormtroopers in the stormtrooper regiments who are seconded into the Inquisition when needed. They then receive some additional training/screening and off they go.

The Guy
24-11-2007, 17:14
Well, the Ibnquisition has fortresses scattered all over the Galaxy. Some are famous and well know, while others are secret. So, Inq stormtroopers are probably billeted there for re-training.

I would guess they start out as ordinary (Is there an ordinary stormtrooper?) stormtroopers in the stormtrooper regiments who are seconded into the Inquisition when needed. They then receive some additional training/screening and off they go.

And in the process have to pay for their krak grenades and are told they aren't allowed to deep strike or infiltrate...

Spacewolves vs Thousandsons
24-11-2007, 17:23
well they may be recruited from the more elite IG units like the kasrikins and then just conditioned to potentially fight demons

and as to the fortresses scattered through out the imperium for the inquisition that is true, but the stationes i mentioned are the ones most commonly and primarily used by the ordo malleus

Nazguire
24-11-2007, 23:15
In the First Armageddon War, 100 Grey Knights managed to not only defeat numerous Khornate daemons, including Bloodthirsters, but banished Angron himself. Is it so unreasonable to extrapolate from this that a small number of Grey Knights can take on a single Bloodthrister and win?

And in response to the original question: yes they are capable, otherwise why would they be used at all?

Did you even read my post about the First Armageddon War?

100 Grey Knights didn't single handedly defeat Angron and his army. They played a major part in it, but the majority of the fighting was done by the Space Wolves, presumably other Chapters, and the Imperial Guard regiments there.

Klomster
30-11-2007, 00:35
The hundred grey knight terminators fought Angron and his 12 blodthirster buddies.

The wolwes fought the small fry and was brainwashed afterwards.

The imperial guards fighting there might "mysteriously" have dissappeared.

As for stormtrooper training, i will read the entry in codex deamonhunters.

*reading sound*

Aha!

I think i will quote this one, any tm material i might write now is owned by their respective owners.

Quote from Deamonhunter codex stormtrooper entry.

"The inquisition maintains a string of fortresses scattered throughout the galaxy, some hidden, some extremely well known and the object of numerous dark legends. Inquistorial stormtroopers are charged with the protection and security of the inquisition fortresses and the infamous Black ships as they make their purity checks throughout the imperium.
Recrouited from the Schola Progenium and trained in a similar fashion to the elite stormtroopers of the Imperial guard. Stormtroopers undertake rigorous purity and incurruptibility tests before they are permitted to bear the Inquistorial mark, making them preferable to use in Daemonhunters forces where the number of Grey Knights available may be insufficient."

End quote.

Now we know exactly where Inquistorial stormtroopers come from.

P.s. If someone would like to purge me for not being clear enough who owns this material, please warn me. D.s.

The Guy
30-11-2007, 16:16
Actually all the men and women who fought in the 1st armageddon war that weren't marine were put into labour camps by the inquisition and worked to death rebuilding the cities. Logan Grimnar has never forgiven the =I= for that.

Vaktathi
30-11-2007, 16:38
Death Korps troopers can still break and flee. Being stoic isn't the same thing as being truly invulnerable and fearless. It may be less common but still happens. The IA Siege of Vraks book even has an entire regiment falling back in abject disarray after heavy enemy fire.

well, its really one one company that gets stuck in no-mans-land and shelled to death and disoriented, then falls back once they realize that not only are they probably being cut down far out of sight of the enemy, they probably won't even reach the enemy lines. They then fall back to their own positions just as the second wave starts going over the top causing all sorts of confusions and mayhem as guys falling back dive into the trenches as others try to climb over and forward and generally confuses the hell out of everyone and they don't actually get around to doing what they were supposed to do.

It's not like the whole regiment broke and fled.

Clockwork-Knight
30-11-2007, 16:46
Actually all the men and women who fought in the 1st armageddon war that weren't marine were put into labour camps by the inquisition and worked to death rebuilding the cities. Logan Grimnar has never forgiven the =I= for that.Not only those who fought, all inhabitants of Armageddon, the entire planetary population. Afterwards, the repopulated the worlds with settlers from other hive-worlds.
Can't be too safe with the taint that the daemon-primarch Angron might have left behind.

FrankManic
01-12-2007, 09:09
Inquisitor stormtroopers are not "expendable". They are the best Human soldiers anywhere in the galaxy...

To an Inquisitor the only humans that are not expendable are the Emperor, the Space Marines, other Inquisitors, and the Navis Nobilite, more or less in that order. They can always requisition more stormtroopers.

Daredhnu
01-12-2007, 09:30
well actually as far as inquisitors are concerned even space marines are expendable, other inquisitors can still be guilty of all manner of sins so they are equally expendable.

basically all men are expendable (the emperor is a god in their eyes so he doesn't count)

The Anarchist
01-12-2007, 18:00
In the most basic point, any one can fight a deamon! it just depends on the level of sucsess that they will have. just my small point, ithink everyone else has stated about the training, mental strength, and such that wold be needed to actual mash the deamon.