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BenK
07-11-2007, 09:25
Thumbing through the new HE book and planning an army based around Hoeth; three mages, maybe two blocks of swordmasters and then silver helms and state troops.

Can this work? I've a horrible feeling I'll get shot to bits...

Lucky24/7
07-11-2007, 09:47
So Do I.

A mean High elfs in the new book can play very well if they can make there oppents come to them... otherwise they are not fast/ough enough to make it across the feild.

Personally 6 bolt throwers can always sort that problem out thought... then sit some troops around them and go come to papa :D

Snoozer
07-11-2007, 09:48
*Note: the following poster has never owned an HE force and has not actually seen the new book*

But...

Kind of depends what you mean by a block of swordmasters, I would probably not take 2 blocks of 20 something swordmasters, but it could probably work if you make the units smaller, say 12-14 swordmasters per unit, as they are almost as effective as a big one (as killing will provide pretty much all of the combat resolution anyway) but being almost half the cost.

I don't really know what to do about the whole "getting shot" thing as I'm not 'that' familiar with the HE ArmyBook, do they have any magic that can help with that or anything else, I don't know. (maybe taking one white lion unit for the purpose of screening against missile fire :p)

:D

Ecclesiastes
07-11-2007, 10:56
So Do I.

Personally 6 bolt throwers can always sort that problem out thought... then sit some troops around them and go come to papa :D

With 4 rare choices and no more 2 for 1 choice Bolt throwers 6 RBT is not an option (at 2k pts)

But to the OP, yes you'll get shot to bits, unless you can shoot more ^.^ the main weakness of your swordmasters will definately be shooting and magic... Doing a Saphery themed list will take care of the magic part, for the shooting part you will have to be inventive... A: you could bring more shooting than an average opponent would bring (RBT, archers, reavers, Shadow warriors) B: you get some fast and sneaky stuff to take out shooting before they take out your squishies... (cavalry, dragons, scouts, eagles) C: try to outlast him by taking lots of White lions and Phoenix guard (tricky option)

Magic counters could include
- Taking high magic, providing your units with a 5+ ward save (nr 1 spell)
- Tooling up on magic items, the banner that makes you move through woods (can't shoot me if you can't see me), the ench. item that makes the unit -1 to hit, the ench item that makes a character ethereal
- Lore of life + seer staff, try to get howler wind through

Gl building your force...

Gtempest
07-11-2007, 11:06
You could very well get shot to bits but you could try using either the new 5+ ward save or the other lores in the rulebook to aid you by using maybe howler wind like the other guy said or even offensive magic and try to weaken enemy shooting.
Bolt throwers are your friend aswell often able to engage enemy missile troops at a greater range but in my opinion I would just take small units of swordmasters (12-14) and use them to support the battleline which may well include seaguard,spear elves and archers using bolt throwers and mages to stand off from the opponents firepower and thus force them to come to you and hopefully onto your swordmasters.
To me saphery doesn't seem to be a very aggressive army anyway.

BenK
07-11-2007, 12:35
Great eagles! Great scott, you're a genius!

Taking a lore of life mage sounds quite tasty as well...

SilverWarlock
07-11-2007, 12:53
remember that RBTs outrange empire and dwarf gunlines for the most part and so do archers ... just make sure you have 4 RBTs and some archers and force the ennemy to come to you, then you are all good.

Heretic Burner
07-11-2007, 19:03
Swordsmasters don't work well in blocks until very large games. In most games you'll want MSU of swordsmasters which maul units in combat, are very quick, and don't cost very much at all. 10-12 are all you need.

With multiple units of these you have a ton of points to take on units of knights, and the ultra effective spearmen. There is no point trying to outshoot Empire and especially dwarfs, instead remember you have one of the fastest armies in the game and maul them in close combat. Unless you are playing on a barren field use terrain - in fact feel free to use white lions they are tremendously effective.

Keep in mind only Empire and Dwarfs (and Chaos dwarfs, though they are far rarer) are going to provide enough firepower to actually cause you pause. With so many MSUs, and dirt cheap spearmen, bows simply aren't effective at causng enough casualties and warmachines simply can't target your multiple units effectively. HE tend to have high leadership as well so panic tests aren't nearly the threat they are against say Empire or goblins.

It will be an uphill battle for even gunlines, against other armies mathematically they simply can't throw enough firepower to be a problem.

CHOOBER SNIPES
08-11-2007, 00:08
I hav been tampering with this thought a lot, about not getting shot. The best thing IMO is using defensive magic and items to help keep a long string of screening spearmen alive. Completely disposable, if worst comes to worst u literally walk straight up to the enemy, if they charge u, u take it, get overrun and ASF against the overrunners. If ur not needing the screen so much, reform and youve got another block of infantry. Only problem is if enemy shooting is on a hill. Sry bout this, but if the info is giveable, how are the new lothern seaguard, i hear they are 13 pts w/ shields is this true, and are they core? Also, do spearmen have hvy armor??

Andyroo
08-11-2007, 00:31
Yup, Seaguard are core, are the same points as the old archers with they're basic loadout. And 1 point more if you give em shields.
They're a good choice, considering the difference between them and archers is a single point, and for that you get to fight in 2 more ranks when they get charged. Theres also a disadvantage in that they only have bows. But considering the extra combat prowess, you can afford to move them a bit further up the field so thats not really a problem.

Neither Spears or Seaguard get heavy armour. I think that would be the final straw, that would tip them over the edge into the endless chasm of Cheese.

chivalrous
08-11-2007, 00:43
A couple of large blocks (20+) of Spearelves (with shields), supported with 2-3 minimal units of Swordmasters and a couple of units of Eryllian Reavers.
That's what? 480pts for the spears, 300-450pts for the swordmasters and 180pts for the Reavers. (I haven't got the points costs to hand), the Mages (assuming 1 L4 and 2 L2) will cost ~700.
So you've got about ~180 points to flesh units out and maybe take an Eagle or two.

Shank
08-11-2007, 03:16
This seems to be a common concern with the new book. The HE units will get shot to pieces. But the fact of the matter is, you can still out shoot most armies. Take 2 units of 10 archers and 2/3 bolthrowers and you are in business.
Not to mention all of the HE special infantry comes with Heavy Armor. And Phoniex Guard get a 4+ ward save to boot. I don't know, I thought HE were suppose to be "Fragile"??

Andyroo
08-11-2007, 11:43
Not to mention all of the HE special infantry comes with Heavy Armor. And Phoniex Guard get a 4+ ward save to boot. I don't know, I thought HE were suppose to be "Fragile"??

Heavy armour is pretty bad for elite infantry that cost 15points each.
Take a look at the other elite inf. choices and their relative points costs:

Greatswords, 3 points less, get Full Plate
Quetzl Saurus Warriors, same points at 10 models (decreases for every extra model), 4+ Scaley skin
Chaos Warriors, 1 point less (no mark), Same armour save but Extra T
Chosen, 5 points more, Extra attack, Chaos armour, Extra T
Ironbreakers, 2 points less, Extra T, Gromril + shield
Blorcs, 5 points less, Extra T, Same armour
Stormvermin, 7 points less, Same T, Same armour
Eternal Guard, 3 points less, Same T, Same armour
Black Guard, 1 point more, Same T, Same armour (this one demonstrates just how much the DE need a new book)

As you can see, the HE elite are actually quite fragile for their points cost.

Shank
08-11-2007, 12:25
They are 15 points because they are loaded with special rules. Really they are quite cheap:
Swordmasters: ASF with Great Weapons, 2 attacks, great Stat line, heavy Armor
Phoenix Guard: ASF with Halberds, Cause Fear, 4+ Ward save, heavy armor (This is going to be one tough unit)
White Lions: ASF with Great Weapons, 4 strength, heavy armor, treat woods as open ground, plus lion coats give extra protection from shooting
Come on, you can't compare those listed up top to the Elite of the High Elves. High Elves are far superior.
Oh yeah, all have the option to take a magic banner. How about those Greatswords??

Red_Duke
08-11-2007, 12:28
Heh, none of them can strike first however ;)

Not only that, but only the swordmasters have real vs shooting issues, given that the lions have a 4+ save vs shooting, and the Phoenix Guard have as already mentioned their 4+ ward save.

Ecclesiastes
08-11-2007, 13:02
I think Andyroo tried to point out the fact that with their current armorsaves and toughness 3 the elves are still quite fragile, he didn't say anything about them being too expensive or not worth their points :)

Imo the list of specials now allows a player to tailor his infantry-force just the way he likes it, with lots of abilities, but in the end...they're still elves ^.^

Andyroo
08-11-2007, 15:13
I was indeed talking about their fragility.
Considering Swordmasters die just as fast as Empire Swordsmen to any kind of shooting, or magic, or chariots or anything that can actually hit them back, I think you can INDEED compare them to the elites I listed above.
Especially since half the elites I did list have T4 and a 4+ basic armour save, before you even start giving them shields.
It was fragility we were talking about right?

Phoenix Guard are an entirely different matter, but are nowhere near as good in closecombat as their Hoeth or Chracian compatriots.

Personally I feel the new HE elite inf is scary, but managable.

Heretic Burner
08-11-2007, 19:05
Except the HE elites you listed tend to tear through most of the other elites you've listed, mitigating yet more damage outright from lost return attacks.

Lets face it, its just as easy to find elite units that are far less protected:

Squig Hoppers
Shades
Witch Elves
Birdmen of Catrazza
Long Drong's Slayer Pirates
Leopard Company
Chameleon skinks
Gutter Runners
Plague Censor Bearers
Numerous WE units

All "elite", all with very poor survivability, all with attacks that tend to pale compared to Swordsmasters, and many even to Phoenix Guard.

Again the idea the HE elites are somehow fragile is a myth.

Finnigan2004
08-11-2007, 19:29
Except the HE elites you listed tend to tear through most of the other elites you've listed, mitigating yet more damage outright from lost return attacks.

Lets face it, its just as easy to find elite units that are far less protected:

Squig Hoppers
Shades
Witch Elves
Birdmen of Catrazza
Long Drong's Slayer Pirates
Leopard Company
Chameleon skinks
Gutter Runners
Plague Censor Bearers
Numerous WE units

All "elite", all with very poor survivability, all with attacks that tend to pale compared to Swordsmasters, and many even to Phoenix Guard.

Again the idea the HE elites are somehow fragile is a myth.


If you are using chamelion skinks for the same roles as swordmasters, I think that difficulty in dealing with new high elves might stem from tactics, rather than the invincibility of high elves. It's comparing apples to oranges with most of those units.

Heretic Burner
08-11-2007, 19:35
If you are using chamelion skinks for the same roles as swordmasters, I think that difficulty in dealing with new high elves might stem from tactics, rather than the invincibility of high elves. It's comparing apples to oranges with most of those units.

Nobody mentioned the role at all, simply a response to Andyroo's list (which also has no common "role"). They are all comparing apples to oranges, every single one of them as none have the exact same role. The notion was put that somehow HE elites aren't very survivable, however it has been shot down...they are clearly more survivable than many units of comparable point cost.

Andyroo
08-11-2007, 21:19
I still have yet to see you prove how T3, 5+ armour models are justified as a tough unit.
You've just proved how other things are as fragile as they are. Most of which either come from an army book/list that is in dire need of of an update (DE/DoW), or are specialised flanking units. Congratulations.

Personally, I think the list I wrote does have a simplified role. They're generally all frontline, rank & file, damage mitigation troops. Meant to get into peoples faces and be better than whatever they're killing.
Just like the 3 HE R&F elite infantry choices.

If you want to compare ranged skirmish units, to ranged skirmish units, lets use Shadow Warriors.
I find chameleon skinks are better off than them when it comes to staying alive at range. On the other hand, Shades are broken. I'll admit, they need a hand. Just like the rest of the DE.


Except the HE elites you listed tend to tear through most of the other elites you've listed, mitigating yet more damage outright from lost return attacks.

And? They're meant to. Thats exactly what SoA is for.
Its why they're more expensive than 90% of the stuff on that list.
Maybe start playing to the HE's weakness, instead of charging straight into their strengths?

EDIT: Look, i'm not saying the 3 units aren't stupidly bloody good. They are.
Swordmasters i think are a little overrated. If you let them get to your lines unscathed, you deserve to get chopped into small pieces.
But Whitelions and PG I think may become a little abusable.
But I'm not under any misconception that they are somehow now Chaos Chosen Knights at taking hits from the enemy.

Shank
08-11-2007, 22:50
My point is the average Toughness in warhammer for troops is 3. With the exception of Orcs, Dwarfs, some Chaos, and lizards. I never said they were tough, but they aren't fragile. Heavy armor as standard equipment on your foot troops is rare. And the High Elves have 3 of them!!

Heretic Burner
08-11-2007, 23:34
I still have yet to see you prove how T3, 5+ armour models are justified as a tough unit.
You've just proved how other things are as fragile as they are. Most of which either come from an army book/list that is in dire need of of an update (DE/DoW), or are specialised flanking units. Congratulations.

I made no claims at all they are a "tough unit". I merely pointed out that the weakest defensively of the big three elites, Swordsmasters, are more survivable than a massive number of similarly priced units. I have pointed out that they aren't nearly as fragile as the other units listed, a great number indeed, which are entirely fieldable in their own right. These other units aren't as fragile, they are more fragile. So yes, the perfectly respectable HE units are not fragile at all and are quite survivable especially compared to numerous other comparable units.


Personally, I think the list I wrote does have a simplified role. They're generally all frontline, rank & file, damage mitigation troops. Meant to get into peoples faces and be better than whatever they're killing.
Just like the 3 HE R&F elite infantry choices.

You honestly believe HE swordsmasters serve the same role as ironbreakers? Or Blorcs the same as Stormvermin? These aren't even remotely comparable units. None of the units on your list serve the same role, as none of the big three HE elite units do with each other. I can't imagine anyone using Stormvermin for "damage mitigation", or Chaos Chosen in anywhere near the same manner as Eternal guard. Completely different units for completely different roles.


If you want to compare ranged skirmish units, to ranged skirmish units, lets use Shadow Warriors.
I find chameleon skinks are better off than them when it comes to staying alive at range. On the other hand, Shades are broken. I'll admit, they need a hand. Just like the rest of the DE.

I have no idea what you are talking about. We were talking about the survivability of elite units, which is all you put in your list. It is all I put in mine. The roles of your list are completely different as are the roles of mine. The only thing common is the survivability measurement - which shows HE are more than capable compared to many other elites.



Its why they're more expensive than 90% of the stuff on that list.
Maybe start playing to the HE's weakness, instead of charging straight into their strengths?

I would dearly like to know their weaknesses. As an O&G player I am soundly dominated in the movement phase, the magic phase, and now the combat phase. HE units absolutely demolish O&G units, can completely dictate the battle because of their enormous mobility advantage, and are certainly quite capable of surviving bow fire in response. And indeed, charging into their strengths is exactly what I, as an O&G player, have absolutely zero control over - they will lumber forward entirely on their own due to animosity.



EDIT: Look, i'm not saying the 3 units aren't stupidly bloody good. They are.
Swordmasters i think are a little overrated. If you let them get to your lines unscathed, you deserve to get chopped into small pieces.
But Whitelions and PG I think may become a little abusable.
But I'm not under any misconception that they are somehow now Chaos Chosen Knights at taking hits from the enemy.

Many armies simply have no choice but to let Swordsmasters get to their lines. Chaos in particularly have a dismal amount of shooting units, and they certainly can't rely on magic against the army that is strongest in anti-magic in the game. Most armies simply don't have the firepower outside of Empire and Dwarfs to do so. White lions and PG in particularly shrug off bow fire like nothing so that is simply not a viable strategy. O&G in particularly are poorly suited against MSU armies having short ranged bow fire or war machines more suited towards ranked units than MSU. They simply don't have the option of eliminating the very fast elves from reaching their lines in sufficient numbers to help.

As Shank pointed out quite reasonably, T3 is a very normal score for Warhammer this is no disadvantage. HE couple that T3 with quite decent saves compared to most armies, even on their elites. Is anyone making the claim that HE are as defensive as dwarfs? No. They are simply pointing out that HE are not a fragile army compared to many others out there, even considering the point cost of their elites.

Andyroo
09-11-2007, 01:28
Argument well and truly plundered.
Although I think I was slowly arguing more and more toward the same point but from a different direction... or maybe that was a corner. Not sure.


These backpedals dont work fast enough :P

Defender of Ulthuan
09-11-2007, 01:43
Not to be mean to everyone who isn't a High Elf player, but you really can have 6 BT in 2000pts..
Alith Anar
Hero w/Bow of the Seafarer (it may only be 5, I'd need to see the cost of this item)
4 RBT's
Cheese, I know, but there you have it..
A little unrelated, but worth telling, I think.

Andyroo
09-11-2007, 02:23
Yeah its only 5. Bow of the Seafarer is 10 more points than allowed on a Hero.

3000 pt battle though, would make a great Seaguard themed army.
Maybe a seer mage with the Hunter's Spear as well for kicks? :D

smileyface
09-11-2007, 13:48
Edit: tiredness plus multiple windows made me cross the threads. Remember, don't cross the threads. Still, I've cut the stuff that wasn't from here.

Now, Heretic Burner. Where to start? I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt on the trolling front for the duration of one post here.



My problem is the bizarre notion that:
A) HE are fragile


It is pretty clear that the HE field much more survivable T3 units than most other armies due to their armor save.
...
I don't see how peasants (no save) or M@A (equal to HE saves) are more survivable. They are also a lot slower. Just don't get it.


I made no claims at all they are a "tough unit". I merely pointed out that the weakest defensively of the big three elites, Swordsmasters, are more survivable than a massive number of similarly priced units.

Put together, I conclude that one of the following is true:
1) You're trolling.
2) You know you're wrong, but don't want to admit it.
3) You are genuinely failing to understand an important game concept: to whit, survivability.

I'm going to assume 3) for the moment, and try and help you.

Survivability is not just a property of individual models. It is also a property of units, and armies.

If army one (A1) consisted of one unit of ten models with T3 and a 5+ save, and army two (A2) consisted of one unit of ten models with T4 and 3+ save, then clearly A2 would be more survivable. That's improved model survivability.

If A3 consisted of one unit of twenty models with T3 and a 5+ save, then A3 has higher survivability. Although man for man they're the same in survivability terms as A1, unit for unit they are more survivable, because to panic them takes more damage and they have higher static combat res. This is improved unit survivability.
As a side note, if A3 had twenty T3 guys with no save at all, they would still have higher survivability against missiles and magic than A1 despite being individually weedier, because even S1 hits will kill fewer of them as a proportion than they would of A1.

If A4 consists of two units, each of ten men with T3 and a 5+ save, then A4 has higher survivability than A1. This is not due to the men being tougher, or due to the units being tougher. It is due to there being more units. If A1 loses a unit, they've lost. If A4 loses a unit, they've still got a chance. This is one aspect of improved army survivability (there are complicating factors).

HE do alright (not well, but alright) if you look at it on a model basis. T3 5+ save is pretty much the baseline for combat troops - less than that is fragile (and usually very cheap). However, when looked at over units or armies, the high points cost of HE tends to make them either field fairly small units (giving their units lower survivability than other units in cheaper armies); or they end up fielding full sized blocks, but fewer of them. Either way, when you look at a HE army, it is a fragile army. The individual models might be alright, but the player knows that an unlucky round or a bad magic missile and there will be very expensive dress-wearing corpses from here to his table edge.


O&G are the very worst army in the game in movement. The very worst army in the game in magic. Against HE, an army near the top in both categories, you would expect they would have some dominant advantage.

Assuming you aren't a troll, I conclude you aren't a very good O&G player. I don't mean that as an insult - simply an observation. O&G have core fast cavalry. That makes them a powerful manouvre army - if you're sensible enough to include it. If of course you ignore most powerful manouvre units, that's your problem.
They also have their key advantage vs HE - numbers. A basic orc boy with a shield is 6 points. A basic spearelf is (apparently) 9. That means you get a 3 to 2 numbers advantage. So yes, you should lose a one on one unit matchup with even sized units... because you have more units to fight with. If you won one on one and had more units then it would clearly be unfair.


The absurd notion that HE are utterly expensive across the board has been shot down many times, their spearmen and archers are dirt cheap,

People would call you a troll less and take you seriously more if you thought about what you were saying and made sure it was true. The only spears more costly than HE are eternal guard (WE, regarded as underpowered, special rules) and Saurus (stronger, tougher, harder to break, also regarded as underpowed). The only archers more costly than HE archers are WE archers (better in every way except ASF). So you could say "not bad for the price", which is uncontentious, or even "cheap for what you get" which is arguable, but "dirt cheap" as a straight out absolute is either a lie or a silly mistake.

If you look at other armies, they all fall into one of the following categories:
1) cheaper per model than HE, so more survivable.
2) tougher per model than HE, so more survivable.
3) 1) and 2) together.
4) other elves.

The only combat troops more fragile and equivalently costed are those from category 4) - other elves. On an army-wide basis the only armies as fragile are other elves. WE are generally competitive and probably won't be scared by HE (in fact, WE are hard as nails and no-one I know likes fighting against them), while DE are in need of a revision and have been essentially since their book came out. Good thing they're getting one soon, really.

I hope I was right and you're not a troll. I hope that you genuinely didn't see the relevance of points costs to army survivability, and I hope it helps you. I also think you should try writing and using a HE list - borrow/proxy the models if you need to. You can borrow mine if you're anywhere near me.

smileyface
09-11-2007, 14:47
Thumbing through the new HE book and planning an army based around Hoeth; three mages, maybe two blocks of swordmasters and then silver helms and state troops.

Can this work? I've a horrible feeling I'll get shot to bits...

I'm in the needing firepower camp. I don't think advancing across the table with T3 5+ saves and high cost troops is going to work well, M5 or no. The bright side is that that fits quite well with the theme - multiple mages plus multiple RBT is quite a bit of firepower.

Heretic Burner
09-11-2007, 20:02
Now, Heretic Burner. Where to start? I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt on the trolling front for the duration of one post here.

I would suggest starting with facts and comparable units rather than making personal attacks at other posters. I am going to give you the benefit of the doubt and assume your tiredness was a factor for the duration of one post here.



Put together, I conclude that one of the following is true:
1) You're trolling.
2) You know you're wrong, but don't want to admit it.
3) You are genuinely failing to understand an important game concept: to whit, survivability.

1) Clearly not the case. Only one of us is making personal attacks and it ain't me.
2) Clearly not the case. It is a strong argument backed by facts and comparable units from other armies.
3) As this discussion has been commenting on this very concept, clearly wrong once more.

No, we must go with:

4) I'm right.



<Strange model attribute math snipped>
HE do alright (not well, but alright) if you look at it on a model basis. T3 5+ save is pretty much the baseline for combat troops - less than that is fragile (and usually very cheap).

It isn't much of a baseline at all for T3 units. T3 units tend to have 6+ saves or even worse except for a handful of traditional ranked units in armies. HE tend to be at the very least 5+ with very few exceptions and have some absolute monsters like Phoenix Guard. They do very well for T3 units.



However, when looked at over units or armies, the high points cost of HE tends to make them either field fairly small units (giving their units lower survivability than other units in cheaper armies); or they end up fielding full sized blocks, but fewer of them. Either way, when you look at a HE army, it is a fragile army. The individual models might be alright, but the player knows that an unlucky round or a bad magic missile and there will be very expensive dress-wearing corpses from here to his table edge.

Yes HE have the option of fielding as MSU or blocks, an option many armies simply don't as they don't have the offensive punch. However the notion that HE are more expensive than other armies is again false. It has been pointed out time and again that other armies field units in comparable point range for the same, or even worse, saves. They don't need to be much smaller than those other armies. And it isn't just the elites either! You can easily compare your base standard HE spearmen to a standard O&G savage orc (a basic core unit) - 1 point difference and approximate equal survivability. And the HE attack is far and away superior as is the rest of its statline (inclusing leadership and movement, also a factor in how well these units survive). And O&G should have a point break due to animosity.

So yes, HE are very survivable.



Assuming you aren't a troll, I conclude you aren't a very good O&G player. I don't mean that as an insult - simply an observation. O&G have core fast cavalry. That makes them a powerful manouvre army - if you're sensible enough to include it. If of course you ignore most powerful manouvre units, that's your problem.

Well yet another attack on me. It is getting really hard to ignore them, even considering your "tiredness". O&G have core fast cavalry - with animosity. Animosity takes control out of said core fast cavalry 1/3 of the time. I'm afraid they are one of the worst mobile units in the game for that very reason. I wish we had excellent and powerful mobile fast cavalry, but I'm afraid fast cavalry that your opponent dictates 1/6 and doesn't move at all 1/6 of the time just aren't going to cut it.



They also have their key advantage vs HE - numbers. A basic orc boy with a shield is 6 points. A basic spearelf is (apparently) 9. That means you get a 3 to 2 numbers advantage. So yes, you should lose a one on one unit matchup with even sized units... because you have more units to fight with. If you won one on one and had more units then it would clearly be unfair.

What about the other units? I'm not following you. The most comparable O&G unit offensively with HE spearmen are savage orcs with additional hand weapons, a unit that is comparably survivable, more expensive, must deal with frenzy AND animosity, and has a worse statline almost across the board. So numbers certainly aren't a massive difference - even comparing an alleged horde army with HE "elite" army.

We haven't even considered DOW yet! With 4 rare slots available, those numbers can more than be made up with cheap DOW units (i.e duellists). So yes, if thats truly a concern HE have the means of putting an end to that disparity. However HE units tend to be so powerful on their own that it is of little concern at all.



People would call you a troll less and take you seriously more if you thought about what you were saying and made sure it was true.

I, of course, have never cared what other people cal me. I merely hold myself to the standard that personal attacks have no place here. I would expect the save basic courtesy from others but, sadly, it isn't to be. Who is the real troll? I'll let you answer that on your own.



The only spears more costly than HE are eternal guard (WE, regarded as underpowered, special rules) and Saurus (stronger, tougher, harder to break, also regarded as underpowed). The only archers more costly than HE archers are WE archers (better in every way except ASF). So you could say "not bad for the price", which is uncontentious, or even "cheap for what you get" which is arguable, but "dirt cheap" as a straight out absolute is either a lie or a silly mistake.

You are comparing units that are simply not, in any way, serving the same role. I might as well compare the cost of greater daemons to gnoblars. HE spearmen are dirt cheap compared to many other units in the game. They are excellent for their value. I don't know what else you want, is your problem one of semantics only?



If you look at other armies, they all fall into one of the following categories:
1) cheaper per model than HE, so more survivable.
2) tougher per model than HE, so more survivable.
3) 1) and 2) together.
4) other elves.


1) Though with worse saves and most likely a much worse statline.
2) Though again usually with worse saves, a worse statline, worse movement, or any other factor that also influeces survivability.
3) Or neither. Or 1) and 2) together though lacking in other areas of survivability.
4) Which tend to be far less survivable than HE.



The only combat troops more fragile and equivalently costed are those from category 4) - other elves.

What is a "combat troop"? All units are "combat" units. Yes, even HE archers which come with first strike and a very decent WS. Sure handgunners don't have the same combat ability, but I've certainly willingly used them in close combat before successfully.



On an army-wide basis the only armies as fragile are other elves. WE are generally competitive and probably won't be scared by HE (in fact, WE are hard as nails and no-one I know likes fighting against them), while DE are in need of a revision and have been essentially since their book came out. Good thing they're getting one soon, really.

Nonsense. WE are much more fragile than HE considering their T3 units. DE as well. WE are near the top of competitive standings, DE on the bottom. Clearly any issue with survivability, considering the wide difference in power of less survivable armies, is moot.



I hope I was right and you're not a troll.

I hope I was right and can blame your "tiredness" for your countless personal attacks. I hope we don't see any more from you in the future, that you will post in a less tired state.



I hope that you genuinely didn't see the relevance of points costs to army survivability, and I hope it helps you. I also think you should try writing and using a HE list - borrow/proxy the models if you need to. You can borrow mine if you're anywhere near me.

I hope you are helped by the clear, concise, and factual explanation I have offered you. I hope you can clearly see that even armies considered "tough", ie O&G, are indeed of comparable survivability with HE. I wouldn't actually let you use my O&G if you were anywhere near me, not that I hold anything against you, just that I certainly wouldn't want anyone to play such a dreadful army if they can help it. Empire, on the other hand, are all yours.

John Wayne II
09-11-2007, 20:15
No, we must go with:

4) I'm right.

How about...

5) You are expressing your own opinion on a discussion forum.

Your inability to accept this seems to rile up some posters, specially when you imply that their armies are totally broken and they are fools for playing it (i.e. O&G) or that they are heartless powergamers who deserve to be cheated against because of how overpowering they are (i.e. High Elves). But obviously you are right and anyone who disagrees with you is wrong... :rolleyes:

Chiungalla
09-11-2007, 20:23
I wish we had excellent and powerful mobile fast cavalry, but I'm afraid fast cavalry that your opponent dictates 1/6 and doesn't move at all 1/6 of the time just aren't going to cut it.

How does your opponent dictates 1/6 of your fast cavalry moves?
Because you need to move to his nearest unit? Oh come on!
1D6 inches, and afterwards you can move 9 in the other direction if you like...


What about the other units? I'm not following you. The most comparable O&G unit offensively with HE spearmen are savage orcs with additional hand weapons, a unit that is comparably survivable, more expensive, must deal with frenzy AND animosity, and has a worse statline almost across the board. So numbers certainly aren't a massive difference - even comparing an alleged horde army with HE "elite" army.

Lol, no, they are not "comparably survivable".
They have toughness 4 and a ward save.

And they strike with strengh 4 in the first round of combat....


Nonsense. WE are much more fragile than HE considering their T3 units.

There are enough units in the wood elf army, that are not toughnes 3, and they do a great deal to the success of the wood elves as complete army.
So you can't only look at the wood elves within the wood elf army!

Heretic Burner
09-11-2007, 20:27
How about...

5) You are expressing your own opinion on a discussion forum.

Yes, and backing it up with facts and other relevant examples in a clear and concise manner. Is this a problem?



Your inability to accept this seems to rile up some posters, specially when you imply that their armies are totally broken and they are fools for playing it (i.e. O&G) or that they are heartless powergamers who deserve to be cheated against because of how overpowering they are (i.e. High Elves).

Accept what? That I can be right? Simply not following you.

O&G are broken, the evidence shows this. It isn't "their" army, it is "our" army as it is mine as well. I don't believe I said once that anybody was a "fool for playing" O&G. But I suppose thats the difference between myself and some other posters, I provide clear and concise arguments backed up with evidence, others lie.

As for cheating it was certainly a valid response to whatever thread it was proposed I'm sure. It does work when performed well.



But obviously you are right and anyone who disagrees with you is wrong... :rolleyes:

Clearly. Logical, concise arguments backed up with evidence and relevant examples should be right over those that just blatantly lie. :D

Chiungalla
09-11-2007, 20:49
Orcs and Goblins are a good army, even more so, if they are played by a good player. They have tons of cheap troops, cheap war machines, and very hard hitting troops for a reasonable cost.

Okay, they are very hard to be planed in advantage, but this isn't only the problem of the orcs & goblins player, but also for his opponent.

As you can loose your unit by a 1 in the wrong moment, so can your opponent loose his units, if you role a 6 in the right moment.

Ecclesiastes
09-11-2007, 21:59
Yawn, getting a bit tired of another thread being captured. I was going to brag about my last game played with my new elves, but I'll save it for another thread :D

My spearmen died like flies in CC btw :D (gotta love Gem of Courage though)

feintstar
10-11-2007, 01:44
Back to the original question of getting HE infantry to work, there is always the concept of going "faster" - Banner of Ellyrion, sure, but how about an Archmage with the Book of Hoeth and the Lore of Shadow? Unseen Lurking units closer and closer to the enemy, with little to no fear of being charged (that's what you want after all) and the capacity for even a 1st turn charge with certain units... Also, your heroes can be made stubborn with the courage spell and then thrown at the enemy with wings of darkness... In this way, we can hope to effectively silence enemy guns.

John Wayne II
10-11-2007, 04:02
Clearly. Logical, concise arguments backed up with evidence and relevant examples should be right over those that just blatantly lie. :D

You haven't played with HE or against them. The book hasn't (officially) gone out yet. There are no tournament statistics to back up your statements. What the hell are you going on about? :eyebrows:

sun tzu
10-11-2007, 13:08
Keep in mind only Empire and Dwarfs (and Chaos dwarfs, though they are far rarer) are going to provide enough firepower to actually cause you pause. With so many MSUs, and dirt cheap spearmen, bows simply aren't effective at causng enough casualties and warmachines simply can't target your multiple units effectively. HE tend to have high leadership as well so panic tests aren't nearly the threat they are against say Empire or goblins.

It will be an uphill battle for even gunlines, against other armies mathematically they simply can't throw enough firepower to be a problem.

I don't think this is true.
Skaven throw out loads of firepower at short range and their jezeils will mess up either chariots or a lord on a dragon.
Don't forget their magic is nasty too.
Orc'z'n'goblins can cause loads of long range death if played that way.
their spear chuckkaz are dirt cheap as are arrer boyz.
Their magic users are the cheapest in the game, they can get a level two sharman for less points that you can get a level one:D
Then you get to the fanatic's:p
Dark elves will mess you up too
They still get 2 bolt throwers for a rare choice add that to their cheap crossbow men, shades, dark riders and magic. . . . . .

Most armys will have problems Vs gunline armies, high elves too

Urgat
10-11-2007, 14:07
Orc'z'n'goblins can cause loads of long range death if played that way.


Let's see... for maximum shooting in a 2k pt battle, you can align:
One great shaman and 3 shamans
2 doomdivers
8 spear chukkas (I really ought to try that some day)
an humongus amount of night gobs (units of 20, deployed in 2 ranks) with bows and fanatics.
Or a large amount of light wolves with bows... Or both.
On second thoughts, sacrify a couple spear chukkas and take a charriot instead, to break through the weakened units that are waiting on the other side of the fanatics...

Oooh. I think I just figured out my perfect anti HE army.
Sure.
Would be highly boring to play though...

Now to "fun it up"...
Replace the 2 doom divers with 4 pump wagons (nyark). 8D6 impact hits, the HE cannot like these. Additionally, four targets they will want to shoot and will divert RBT shots toward... 40 pt minis. (nyark bis)
specials are more tricky. Let's forget about squigs of all kind, they're totally useless against HE. Boars are probably wasted too, they're heavy cavalry, but with lame saves, so ASF will not be forgiving to them... BO can be outmaneuvered by the elves. Probably too fragile too...
I'm afraid the artillery and charriots are the only valid special choices, efficiency wise.
Core, well, I'm pretty sure the wolves and night gobs with fanatics and bows are the best choices.
Boring army to play for a boring army to fight, imho. That stupid ASF rule forces you to tool up your army, I don't like not being able to take what I want... (squigs and so on).

Shank
10-11-2007, 17:45
I don't really think Orcs need to go the shooting route to deal with the HE. Big Un's and Black Orcs are really very nasty is CC. With the exception of the Swordmasters, they have a good shot against the other elites of the HE's.
Plus Pump wagons, chariots and fanatics. Orcs/Goblins will be fine.

Von Wibble
10-11-2007, 17:54
Have to disagree with hereticburner

At the end of the day a strike first unit of spears wounds O+G on 5+ and is outnumbered 3 to 2.. Since HereticBurner claims high elf armies aren't small because of cheap core (!) we can assume that these are the units he is considering. If we look at 3+ to wound you have to concede that you outnumber me by 5 to 2.

A unit of 24 spearmen costs 241 pts. A unit of 24 Orcs with shields costs 150ish. In the first round of combat assuming the orcs charge (since the spears want the extra rank) they face 19 attacks. That is all of 2 kills. The orcs get a meagre 5 attacks which kill 1 elf in return - they lose but hold.

Without strikes first its more like 2 kills vs 2. Not exactly a huge difference. Now throw in a chariot paid for with the points difference and I think it looks quite rosy for da boyz.

Btw if the high elves charge it goes worse for them.

Now if the orcs try to go toe to toe with swordmasters they get murdered. But as I have said before I think Black orcs are underpowered (we play 2 wounds in a house rule at same cost). In 2500pts every high elf army I have picked so far has had room for just 2 units of elite infantry. Compare that to the 4-5 hard units you can get in O+G and you see that winning through isn't that hard.

The question I have noticed you haven't answered, asked by a number of others is this - how many games have you played with or against high elves. If its less than a dozen then your opinion is merely that. Which is neither logical nor backed by evidence. If its considereably more I would be interested to here how they have gone...

Too many people are scared by ASF without even trying to face it. I hear the next army to come out for WHB contains only unbreakable troops causing fear. How much :cheese: is that!!! And the one after that will have fear on all troops and a ward save for everyone. Teh Noes.

Now back on topic

I tended to use infantry heavy forces before the new book.

I would use characters to protect the spears. I would have small units (14 in 2 ranks of 7) of elite units. I would then have some minimised units of dragon princes together with chariots to protect/ threaten flanks. Be careful - get it wrong with just one unit and your line is in danger of being rolled up.

As far as enemy shooting goes I would use eagles and magic to stop this, additional to having a unit of sea guard in core to provide some backup. I usually go for a fair bit of magic as the thought of the enemy even getting 1 spell off on my swordmasters is unpleasant. I usually like the reaver bow as it does nicely against small flank threateners such as fliers. Its also nice vs ethereals.

My tactics are generally to pick out combats I can win. I hang back where I can (obviously vs shooty armies I have to adapt!) and retreat if my troops are in charge range of an enemy they can't beat (or even one they can beat but will gain little by doing so). I concentrate on taking out the faster elements of the enemy first. This makes his force lose cohesion, allowing me to make use of my superior manouvrability. I then have an easier time placing my forces where they can inflict the combat drubbings required.

Now as far as swordmasters getting shot goes...

Any army with access to missile troops will probably focus on these. Empire, Dwarfs and the like certainly.

But hereticburner's comments about chaos forget the existence of leadbelchers, (since he thinks HE players will take 4 DOW units, 1 such unit is not unreasonable), Tzeentchian magic (even HE can't defend too well vs 15 PD), and flamers. Also, you don't need to shoot SMs to stop them getting into combat. Diversional sacrifices will do fine and Chaos have the best in the business - Hounds.

So you need to take out such troops quickly. Overall using these elites as very effective support is the best way to go I feel.

sulla
10-11-2007, 19:11
Have to disagree with hereticburner

At the end of the day a strike first unit of spears wounds O+G on 5+ and is outnumbered 3 to 2.. Since HereticBurner claims high elf armies aren't small because of cheap core (!) we can assume that these are the units he is considering. If we look at 3+ to wound you have to concede that you outnumber me by 5 to 2.

A unit of 24 spearmen costs 241 pts. A unit of 24 Orcs with shields costs 150ish. In the first round of combat assuming the orcs charge (since the spears want the extra rank) they face 19 attacks. That is all of 2 kills. The orcs get a meagre 5 attacks which kill 1 elf in return - they lose but hold.

Without strikes first its more like 2 kills vs 2. Not exactly a huge difference. Now throw in a chariot paid for with the points difference and I think it looks quite rosy for da boyz.



Don't forget units of night goblins with netters to back up your orcs. A whole bunch of s2 attacks vs full ranks and outnumbering aren't going to win the spearelves a whole lot of fights...

Or if he goes elite infantry heavy, just add a couple of fanatics to each goblin unit and shoot/magic all his fast stuff forcing the infantry to come forward...

Heretic Burner
10-11-2007, 19:14
I don't understand the idea HE are vastly outnumbered by O&G. The most comparable unit O&G have to HE spearmen offensively is Savage Orc Boyz with xtra hand weapon, both effectively 3 attack/model in the front row. Naturally it isn't difficult to see HE spearmen are vastly better units, mauling the O&G counterpart in combat, having a better statline (including the two most important stats), and of course having strikes first. Oh yeah, there is also that whole animosity and frenzy thing.

Now sure, its certainly easy to play apples and oranges. Sure orcs with shields are the very most efficient unit in the book to deal with HE spearmen...however they are absolutely dreadful against HE elites. Black Orcs simply don't stand up at all.

As O&G certainly can't use magic against HE, they certainly don't have the firepower to outshoot HE, they certainly aren't nearly as mobile as HE, they must need an overwhelming advantage in close combat to come remotely close to being competitive. I don't think anyone can state that is the case as clearly the opposite is true.

sun tzu
10-11-2007, 19:20
I don't really think Orcs need to go the shooting route to deal with the HE. Big Un's and Black Orcs are really very nasty is CC. With the exception of the Swordmasters, they have a good shot against the other elites of the HE's.
Plus Pump wagons, chariots and fanatics. Orcs/Goblins will be fine.

Didn't say they have to, just that they can.
Heretic Burner said only Empire, Dwarfs and Chaos dwarfs have the firepower to stop High Elf infantry-heavy armies
A unit of arrar boyz are almost the same as unit of boyz in combat.
Night goblins with fanatics
chariots
spear chuckkaz
pump wagons
giant
would all work

Big Un's aren't worth taking these days now that black orcz are so cheap:D

Shank
11-11-2007, 00:31
Well, Big Un's are core so why not take both!
Agreed, Orcs have alot of cheap fire power with some of the best warmachines in the game for their cost. They could for sure whittle them down. My point is, they don't have too. Empire has too.

Back to ASF. I don't think it is a big deal, heck, Elves usually get the charge anyway against most armies. And their Initiative is some of the highest in the game. I think ASF will cause HE players to become "lazy". They won't worry about getting charged or charging. Much of the "tactical" play will be lost. They will push their Swordmasters, White Lions, Spearmen etc all the way up and go "Charge me, I dare you".
And it hurts the HE players opponent. Because he knows, no matter how well he plans his charges, moves to the flank etc, he is going to strike last ("hey, great job getting the charge off with your swordsman. I like the way you used terrain. Really nice job. Now watch my Swordmasters cut them to ribbons"). So, many players are going to go the shooting route.
And ASF will not do against the Dark Elves. I am hoping the "Special Rule" the Dark Elves get is "When Dark Elves are playing against High Elves, ASF is not in effect". Would solve alot of problems.

Urgat
11-11-2007, 01:42
Don't forget units of night goblins with netters to back up your orcs. A whole bunch of s2 attacks vs full ranks and outnumbering aren't going to win the spearelves a whole lot of fights...

yeah... if you field units of 40 gobs and pray for them to stay as numerous, or keep the general nearby (but you can keep so many units within ld range), or else, they'll just refuse to join the fight: remember, the goblins fear elves... like goblins had an overwhelming advantage over the pointy ears to begin with... one of the rules that have always pissed me off, a completly free fear for elves, for an idiotic reason - they small funny-what?. Elves should fear gobs in return for this rule not to be unfair (a reason? Grom's Waaagh almost destroyed their magic network and unleashed chaos on Ulthuan, that's a better reason to fear them than because they smell -without a doubt :p- nasty...). Free bonuses like that should not exist, or should be two-way bonuses, the opposing faction should get something to compensate. THAT is unfair.
Btw, night gobs are faster than elves: their netters still hit first :p

smileyface
11-11-2007, 13:47
I think ASF will cause HE players to become "lazy". They won't worry about getting charged or charging. Much of the "tactical" play will be lost. They will push their Swordmasters, White Lions, Spearmen etc all the way up and go "Charge me, I dare you".
And it hurts the HE players opponent. Because he knows, no matter how well he plans his charges, moves to the flank etc,

I agree that that will be a bit of a problem, however there are mitigations. HE still need to be afraid of flank charges, because a) spears don't work in the flank, b) you don't get as many models fighting, c) they're still infantry, they still want some static combat res, and d) chariots. It's all well and good moving into range and asking if they want some, but if what you get is impact hits, you'll wish you hadn't.
The day you flank the 7*2 swordmasters so they only get four attacks while you're starting combat at +5 static will be a good day. So in that regard at lesat it makes the game more about manouvre - it's not just 'who charges wins'.

In fact, it's like dealing with chosen, if the chosen had broken armour, a horrible wasting disease, and better hair.


yremember, the goblins fear elves... like goblins had an overwhelming advantage over the pointy ears to begin with...
..Free bonuses like that should not exist, or should be two-way bonuses, the opposing faction should get something to compensate. THAT is unfair.

I think once upon a time it a was a game balance thing - when HE infantry was 11+ points per model and goblins were 2, the numbers disparity was almost impossible to deal with, so they put this rule in. Of course then they overpriced goblins, so now it's just a stupid relic that should have been removed.


Btw, night gobs are faster than elves: their netters still hit first :p

That's because centuries of training are no match for the awesome power of some string tied together with weights on it.


The most comparable unit O&G have to HE spearmen offensively is Savage Orc Boyz with xtra hand weapon, both effectively 3 attack/model in the front row.
Sure orcs with shields are the very most efficient unit in the book to deal with HE spearmen...however they are absolutely dreadful against HE elites. Black Orcs simply don't stand up at all.


Orcs with shield are the most efficient unit in the orc book... no need for a qualifier. Against nasty elite things then they need support, but they still provide a reasonably hard to hurt rank bonus. What do you expect from core infantry?
I think your basic problem here is that the O&G book is knackered. On the one hand, you can take your basic orc with a shield and he's really good. On the other hand, the savage orcs, black orcs, and big uns are all overpriced tat. So you can keep comparing the HE to units that are overpriced, and you can keep fielding those overpriced units, and you'll keep losing. Or you could take the slightly underpriced boys with shields and have a go at it. Up to you, but every time you do an anti-HE comparison you always compare a HE unit with another unit that is generally regarded as rubbish, and then lo and behold, the HE are "too good". If you stopped and compared HE units to units that competitive players field, you would see that they are on par.

Of course, then you would have to restrict your complaints to entirely legitimate ones about the orc book having a lack of internal consistancy and a lot of rubbish options, which would mean leaving all the HE threads, so I don't imagine you'll do that any time soon.



As O&G certainly can't use magic against HE, they certainly don't have the firepower to outshoot HE, they certainly aren't nearly as mobile as HE,

You haven't thought it through. The key things here are points costs and manouvre.

HE mages cost more than yours. Sure, if he takes heavy magic you won't get anything significant done in the magic phase. But to do that, he'll spend more points than you.

HE can get more firepower than you. They can take magic bows on characters, RBT, DoW cannon. Vs what, your nice and cheap artillary. In the core section HE archers deliver rubbish firepower for their points - due to ASF and high WS and all those other things a static unit of archers doesn't want to use. On the other hand, greenskin archers are even worse, so play sensibly and don't take them.
So, if you take your artillary you can get what, a doom diver, two spear chuckas and a stone thrower for a couple of hundred points? What do you think he gets for 200 points? I'll tell you: he gets two RBT. No magic bows, no archers, no cnanon, just two RBT... which would be you winning the firepower war.
So yes, he could and probably should outshoot you, but he spends more points to do it.

So here you might face an HE army that has both more firepower than you and more magic. It's certainly possible, and even quite likely if the trend for HE players on here to look for firepower is any indication. On the other hand, such an army will be spending at least a third of their points on magic and firepower. If you spend two hundred on artillary and one or two hundred on magic defense, you should have a nice chunk of points left over to spend on something they don't have. Don't blow it on black orcs.

Moving on to mobility, HE core is (reputedly) all infantry now. Of course, he could still have up to six cavalry units at 2K... but each one he takes is fewer chariots, and fewer of those swordmasters that scare you so much. Meanwhile you can take five wolf riders and a musician for <70 points and those ARE core. You could feasibly fit in 6 such units at 2K points. Granted, animosity doesn't help them (it does make them cheaper though - they would be 15 per model without it), but six units like that would give you the manouvre edge on any 2K HE army. What good are those nasty swordmasters when they spend the entire game hunting down one unit of fast cav? How scary are spearelves when every turn they're given a choice between advancing their normal move or charging some fast cav and exposing their flank?

So yes, you should have a manouvre edge. If you don't, it's because you are doing it wrong. You should also have a significant numbers advantage - with your basic 25 boy block coming in at 175 or so, you should have bigger blocks than the HE and more of them. Maybe your blocks won't win one on one, but then they shouldn't need to.

Meraklis
11-11-2007, 18:40
Well although the HE infantry will probably outclass most enemy infantry in HtH I think that in a tournament a HE infantry force will suffer badly. Just picture yourself fighting an Empire army with 2 Steam tanks, The emperor Karl Franz on the Imperial dragon and 2 cannons.... What can you possibly do against this with an infantry force?

I am afraid that HE tournament lists will remain cavalry themed in this edition (maybe a bit more magic heavy - Teclis is cheapier and even more nasty now)

Heretic Burner
11-11-2007, 20:48
Orcs with shield are the most efficient unit in the orc book... no need for a qualifier. Against nasty elite things then they need support, but they still provide a reasonably hard to hurt rank bonus. What do you expect from core infantry?

What isn't their to expect? Core provides multiple potent units such as skinks, dwarf warriors. HE spearmen, and Chaos Chosen warriors of Khorne. The idea that they can't deal with elite because they are core is absurd.



I think your basic problem here is that the O&G book is knackered. On the one hand, you can take your basic orc with a shield and he's really good. On the other hand, the savage orcs, black orcs, and big uns are all overpriced tat. So you can keep comparing the HE to units that are overpriced, and you can keep fielding those overpriced units, and you'll keep losing. Or you could take the slightly underpriced boys with shields and have a go at it. Up to you, but every time you do an anti-HE comparison you always compare a HE unit with another unit that is generally regarded as rubbish, and then lo and behold, the HE are "too good". If you stopped and compared HE units to units that competitive players field, you would see that they are on par.

Hold on, there are only certain units in my entire book I can field against a HE force that can field anything it wants? Then yes it is broken. I can take all the "slightly underpriced" boys as I want however when said HE player shows up with an all cav army I'm done. In a tournament environment if all my units are poor except orcs with shields then I'm done, I simply don't have the tools to respond to a Bret lance AND an Empire gunline. So yes, I have to use those other units I have no choice.



Of course, then you would have to restrict your complaints to entirely legitimate ones about the orc book having a lack of internal consistancy and a lot of rubbish options, which would mean leaving all the HE threads, so I don't imagine you'll do that any time soon.

Like animosity, dreadful units (by your own account) and completely useless magic phase to start? This army is how a HE infantry army performs, it does very well against O&G. Completely on topic. Perhaps you'd like to clarify what is wrong with that?



HE mages cost more than yours. Sure, if he takes heavy magic you won't get anything significant done in the magic phase. But to do that, he'll spend more points than you.

Nonsense. O&G magic is completely worthless on its own. A single scroll caddy casting drain magic skewers it particularly as you consider animosity is effectively handing your opponent on average a dispel scroll for every single shaman you take. HE mages cost more because of their statline and abilities, they should cost more. O&G shamans simply cost way too much for how bad they are.



HE can get more firepower than you.

They sure can.



So, if you take your artillary you can get what, a doom diver, two spear chuckas and a stone thrower for a couple of hundred points? What do you think he gets for 200 points?

Almost 3 cannons if they want. Multiple units of xbowmen if they want.
So yes, he could and probably should outshoot you, but he spends more points to do it. Duellists. Hotpots. Etc etc etc. Countless options available besides the already potent shooting in their own list.



So here you might face an HE army that has both more firepower than you and more magic. It's certainly possible, and even quite likely if the trend for HE players on here to look for firepower is any indication. On the other hand, such an army will be spending at least a third of their points on magic and firepower.

Ridiculous. HE players can dominate both phases for cheap as I've just shown. A single caddy. A large number of options for shooting. They have the option to dominate for both, O&G never have that option.



So yes, you should have a manouvre edge.

Ridiculous. O&G have the edge against no army in the game. No army with army wide animosity can. A single eagle can, and has, completely disrupt an O&G line. Or, in the very least, march block all day. HE are faster. And HE can even influence O&G movement on their own turn! Lets not be silly, HE are one of the most mobile armies in the game and O&G are dead last - it is by far the biggest difference in the lists.

Grinloc
11-11-2007, 21:08
Why do you try to debate with people who think O&G's got a movement edge over HE's?
Even if one O&G's player is funny enough and brings loads of wolf rider units to the table, not even taking into account them suffering from fear against 99% of the opposing army...more often than not 2 or 3 shooting casualties is enough to send them running, never to be seen again.

Hey, O&G's might have a movement edge under some circumstances against someone....Khemri :rolleyes:.

feintstar
11-11-2007, 21:42
My reckoning is that manuver still plays a massive part in playing vs HE. Thing is you need to outnumber the enemy roughly 2 to one. If you can do that, and hold the magic phase at bay, and shut down (some of the) enemy warmachines if he has any, then you're looking at a decent chance.

Reason being that HE units are tough as nails to the front, but still have flanks. And quite horrible flanks too - a swordmaster unit kitted for war will field something like 2 ranks of 7 swordmasters plus a warbenner. That's 15 attacks vs that charging cav, which makes them heinous, but you flank that with a night goblin unit, and its screwed. Seriously screwed. Flank, outnumber, ranks, and nets. Not to mention the fanatics. Same as a nice block of spearmen. ouch, 18 ASF attacks when you attack the front... Or 3 ASF attacks vs the flank.

Which is why you need to
A. Outnumber by unit (not so hard when facing average model cost around 13 or more with cavalry)
B. Shut down enemy shooting (for reasons already explained, not impossible - even nil shooting armies can do this with fliers etc)
C. Shut down enemy magic (harder, but he pays more points per PD than you do, so again, not impossible)

and D. Never, ever, ever try to face them in combat front on unless you've got some cunning plan to flank them later.

smileyface
11-11-2007, 23:47
Why do you try to debate with people who think O&G's got a movement edge over HE's?

Why would you not have a manouvre edge? If you stop and add up the points, the HE player spends more than you on magic and probably more than you on shooting. Then his infantry are more expensive as well (if you ignore the overpriced elites in your army and just focus on basic boys). That means your army should be a fair bit bigger than his. Then you add in your core fast cavalry. He doesn't have that - his fast cav is competing for special slots and costs 50% more than yours to boot.

So, you've got more units than him. You've got more fast cav than him. Those are crucial advantages. You've also got a one-off extra range charge. His units are a bit faster, and yours have animosity which is usually bad.
Add all that up, and it should be an interesting fight - if you can bring your superior numbers to bear on a broad front then he gets flanked and loses. If you can't, then you don't win the frontal engagement.

Seriously people, what do you want? To engage on a broader front with more units and bigger units while simultaneously knowing that in one on one engagements your troops should win?:eek:

Don't get me wrong, I think the orc book is rubbish. I think the lack of a properly priced elite is nasty and unfluffy, and I think the goblin equipment options should have been rethought so they varied between 3 points and 4 and had more kit generally. On the other hand, I'm not seeing why that's relevant to HE infantry armies. After all, what do you guys do when you come up against Tzeentch and they have more firepower than you (in magical form) combined with chaos warriors you can't beat in one-on-one combat with normal boys?

Grinloc
12-11-2007, 00:54
k, i gonna try to be more specific:

1.) In general you get the advantage of striking first when charging. Now HE's aren't only a pretty fast army, they also theoretically don't need to care about getting charged. This in itself gives them an additional advantage in the movement phase against most armies which also tend to be slower than them.
Now we got one army in the WHFB range which is exclusively not dependent on charging to get the first hits in. To be quite honest with you i was rather upset about this at first, since it heavily smells of "slapping an army wide special rule upon them to purposely lessen the time spent on proper army balancing".
This better not turn out as the future way of army balancing since i think it is dreadful.

2.) I expected to at least have a chance of withstanding a charge from a semi-powerful infantry unit with my orc boyz, as i had one in 6th edition. As it stands now when i get the charge opportunity basically any HE infantry special unit more or less vaporizes my greenskin units. And this for a points cost which is rather small imo considering what they are capable of.
In the movement phase i was already at a disadvantage against them since HE infantry is quite a lot faster than greenskin infantry. Now i'm required to charge them in the flank since i don't stand a chance against them in the front. Sometimes people tend to talk like this is something easily done, but quite frankly it isn't at all. The 7th edition version of animosity doesn't make it in any way easier, but instead quite excessively harder.

Quite frankly i hate fighting HE's now, and won't do so again in the near future. I had two battles against them by now. It's not so much about getting defeated by a large margin, it's more about standing there with my boyz and "hearing" the HE units say "cmon, charge me, i don't care if you do". This was the most fun-killing part about it...

When it comes to my new DE army i probably will use the city garrison list. 8 RBT's at a 2000p game might do the trick in addition to loads of rxb warriors. We'll see.

smileyface
12-11-2007, 09:47
1.) In general you get the advantage of striking first when charging. Now HE's aren't only a pretty fast army, they also theoretically don't need to care about getting charged. This in itself gives them an additional advantage in the movement phase against most armies which also tend to be slower than them.

Well, theyu aren't as fast as they used to be, but I agree.


Now we got one army in the WHFB range which is exclusively not dependent on charging to get the first hits in. To be quite honest with you i was rather upset about this at first, since it heavily smells of "slapping an army wide special rule upon them to purposely lessen the time spent on proper army balancing".
This better not turn out as the future way of army balancing since i think it is dreadful.

I agree with you there too. It isn't clever.


2.) I expected to at least have a chance of withstanding a charge from a semi-powerful infantry unit with my orc boyz,

Ah, now we come to brass tacks. Define chance? I've been doing some maths, and I get seven wide swordmasters and seven wide white lions winning by 5 and 4 respectively just on kills. Now, that's harsh. On the other hand, if their unit is remotely the same price as yours then you are at +3 static. So by my reckoning, that's a chance. Of course, their unit in this example is only two ranks deep, so it only costs 50 points more than yours. I can see why you'd be upset by that, but I have to ask, what are you spending all your points on?

Phoenix guard don't do it. They win by one. Of course, they have a different design philosophy. Lets ignore them.


as i had one in 6th edition.

New rules, new tactics. *shrugs* Not just for you.


Now i'm required to charge them in the flank since i don't stand a chance against them in the front. Sometimes people tend to talk like this is something easily done, but quite frankly it isn't at all.

Tell me about it. I spent the entirety of last edition using a HE army that had to get a flank charge because despite costing more than our opponents we wouldn't win a frontal engagement, with everyone telling me it should be easy because HE were so fast. I found that 2 inches of movement advantage didn't get me a flank charge against people that had more units than me.

On the bright side, what I did learn was the value of fleeing from charges.

In order to get a flank charge, and assuming your opponent doesn't do something stupid, you need either to force a move, gain an out-of-phase move, or to have a longer line than theirs. So it's bonus move magic or a longer line. You should be able to do the longer line.


it's more about standing there with my boyz and "hearing" the HE units say "cmon, charge me, i don't care if you do". This was the most fun-killing part about it...

I know that's annoying. I had that for the last five years. So I sympathise.

Can I make three suggestions?

1) Chariots. Chariot support for infantry units is fantastic. It's especially fantastic against HE.
2) Learn when to flee.
3) Use your fast cav. Seriously. You can take an enemy unit out of the game with one fast cav unit. You can also eat their DoW cannon.

Can you also do me a couple of little favours? Post me a generic all-comers army list (unless you write lists specifically, in which case post an anti-HE list). I have this thing I'm not understanding - your mages are cheaper, your firepower is cheaper, your infantry is cheaper, so the part that that is genuinely confusing me is what you are spending all your points on.

Also, tell me what you do against Tzeentch. That's a serious question. I think HE now work more like a sensibly written mortal Tzeentch than anything else.

Heretic Burner
12-11-2007, 18:23
1) Chariots. Chariot support for infantry units is fantastic. It's especially fantastic against HE.
2) Learn when to flee.
3) Use your fast cav. Seriously. You can take an enemy unit out of the game with one fast cav unit. You can also eat their DoW cannon.


1) Bad idea, with 4 rare slots any HE general who doesn't purchase at least 2 cannons is making a mind boggling bad decision. As an Empire player I know 2 cannons is more than enough to deal with even the most heavy of chariot armies.
2) You do know O&G are the very worst army in the game in that deprartment right? Horrible leadership. Many units that simply can't flee. Large blocks of troops causing chains of panic. Oh yeah, that animosity thing that destroys the necessary countercharge even if everything else goes well. Not a reliable way for O&G to win at all.
3) The very worst fast cav in the game? Against an army that is the very best against fast cav in the game? Seriously? Again, clearly not a good idea if I am looking at the biggest mismatch in the game and hoping that is the solution.

An O&G army does quite well against Tzeentch (well as well as O&G can do anyway). They are fairly decent at shutting down magic with a useful banner and your usual scroll caddy(s). O&G have a chance against Chaos units in close combat, unlike against HE units which rip through them like nothing. Although O&G are not as mobile they aren't blown out like against HE. Simply put Chaos Tzeentch aren't nearly as strong and O&G have tools to deal with them. Against HE, that is not the case.

Grinloc
12-11-2007, 20:05
Against SM (example) my orc boyz frequently lost combat by 2 or 3 points as far as i remember. They killed maybe 3 boyz but i outnumbered him of course. So with the general in 12" proximity i had to pass a break check of 6 or 7.
That's what i meant about having a chance. Today "Mr. Insane courage" knocks at my door with the same number of SM in my face (having the roughly same points cost to boot).

One thing is for certain: To have a good chance against the new HE's you need reliable ways to counter them. As we all know 7th edition O&G's and the term "reliable" don't date each other.

Now i gotta ask you (as a HE player) a question: Do you wanna use a fast cavalry unit which is 1) prone to animosity, 2.) shakes in fear against the entire enemy army and 3.) has a LD of 6? Does this sound reliable to you?
"Hey, what do you want? They are dirt cheap".
They are probably cheap compared to other fast cavalry units but that doesn't help me really. What is there to do when they stand there either due to a squabble or a failed fear check? In either case that very unit is technically not existing on the battle field.

One needs a reliable force to have a good chance to beat HE's without shamelessly relying on dice roll luck. O&G's are both the most unreliable army and an army with craptastic leadership across the board. Low points costs are a disadvantage in many cases as well, but people often tend to overlook that fact.

I had my battles against HE's and due to stuff like ASF it is utterly boring and uncomfortable. But that is not the worst part. The worst part is that since we don't have any fun our HE player (who collected the minis for years) doesn't have any fun either. And that is all GW's fault, not being capable of balancing an army the usual way, a way everyone of us local players want and expect them to.
Come to the table with your HE forces and....? Want some gunline shots in your face? Fought him with my DE city garrison list too and shot him to pieces with 8 RBT's. He switched back to chaos and VC and noone here blames him for that.

Against Tzeentch? Plenty of scroll caddies. I frequently brought 6 dispel scrolls to the battles against my chaos opponent, sometimes even 10 lol. That nullified his powerful magic, along the lines of "Either cast with IF or not at all". Quite simple concept really.

smileyface
16-11-2007, 13:48
Now i gotta ask you (as a HE player) a question: Do you wanna use a fast cavalry unit which is 1) prone to animosity, 2.) shakes in fear against the entire enemy army and 3.) has a LD of 6? Does this sound reliable to you?

Yes. Hell yes. Yes, I would swap my special choice reavers out for core choice goblin wolf riders.

Seriously... a completely expendable 9" move fast cavalry unit for <70 points?

*boggles*


They are probably cheap compared to other fast cavalry units but that doesn't help me really. What is there to do when they stand there either due to a squabble or a failed fear check?

Then take a lot of them. One unit might be alright for HE who can count on it functioning, passing fear, and rallying. You will need 1.5 to do the same job... which is basically why yours are 1.5 times cheaper. Multiple unit redundancy when performing the same job means greater reliability.

Do you remember Baron DeSade? Used to post on here a lot, mostly played DE. Search for his site, it contains a fair bit about multiple unit redundancy (important for him, due to cold one and chariot stupidity), and also about he many and happy uses of fast cav, that might or might not involve charging the elves, but will certainly involve running around a lot and threatening to charge the elves. After all, if I can advance to a nice position, but I've got two units of wolf riders on my flank if I do, will I take the chance on them both failing to charge? Probably not, when you look at the price of my unit.


One needs a reliable force to have a good chance to beat HE's without shamelessly relying on dice roll luck.

Half fair... but you can remove "beat HE's" and insert "win" here. All your problems with mobility, shooting, magic etc apply just as well to other armies.


And that is all GW's fault, not being capable of balancing an army the usual way, a way everyone of us local players want and expect them to.

Then write to GW and express your concerns. They will almost certainly ignore you, but you'll be doing something useful. If your response is to go on a message board and say that you hate playing HE because {string of complaints}, then while you might get some useful advice (though you could get it more easily by asking for it), ultimately you will waste a lot of your time and effort.


Against Tzeentch? Plenty of scroll caddies. I frequently brought 6 dispel scrolls to the battles against my chaos opponent, sometimes even 10 lol. That nullified his powerful magic, along the lines of "Either cast with IF or not at all". Quite simple concept really.

...right... wo you can't see yourself shutting down HE magic, but you can stop Tzeentch. Nice. What did you do about his rock hard infantry?

Andyroo
16-11-2007, 14:18
The worst part is that since we don't have any fun our HE player (who collected the minis for years) doesn't have any fun either. And that is all GW's fault, not being capable of balancing an army the usual way, a way everyone of us local players want and expect them to.


I've been reading this alot, but I haven't really seen anybody put their own suggestions forward as to how THEY would have balanced HE infantry.
I know its not our jobs, its theirs, they are payed to do it. And they have, but you aren't happy with it.
So what would you have done?

I'm genuinely interested. I'm sure that collectively we could all come up with something better than Mr. Troke.

Elhier
16-11-2007, 14:52
the key to stoping being shot to peices is to take the lore of life and cast that wind spell and the rain lord, that tends to put the kia bosh on most shooting, this is not so good if you are also very missile heavy but to magic heavy forces it is a really good stratergy.

smileyface
16-11-2007, 15:03
I've been reading this alot, but I haven't really seen anybody put their own suggestions forward as to how THEY would have balanced HE infantry.
I know its not our jobs, its theirs, they are payed to do it. And they have, but you aren't happy with it.
So what would you have done?

I don't think the problem was the elves - I think it was the main rules.

There are oh so many things I would change, but the main one in this context would be the benefit of charging. Considering how many fights finish in one turn, and how many involve units that the other side can't really damage, I think initiative comes out as a pretty duff stat. The "fix" here is to give a high I army ASF, which actually make I an even more duff stat. The answer in my mind would to be to remove the strike-first-when-charging rule, so that on the charge you strike in I order.

Instead I would give a charging unit +1 combat res, to represent the impetus and shock value. Combat res is morale, after all, and charging in is probably beneficial to morale for most people*.

*personally I don't like it, because charging is dangerous when the guys you're fighting have polearms pointed at you. Still, warhammer is mostly a shieldwall fight.

Of course, the O&G players wouldn't see any difference there, so you'd have exactly the same number of complaints... :angel:

Grinloc
16-11-2007, 15:33
I've been reading this alot, but I haven't really seen anybody put their own suggestions forward as to how THEY would have balanced HE infantry.
I know its not our jobs, its theirs, they are payed to do it. And they have, but you aren't happy with it.
So what would you have done?

I'm genuinely interested. I'm sure that collectively we could all come up with something better than Mr. Troke.

I'm talking about balancing an army the "usual way".
Giving units a points break, a lil tweaking, giving an army entirely new units, etc....but not along the lines of SM the way they are now.

But but but they die so easily to shooting...people had that arguement as well in 6th edition. Only problem is that it's void. If the HE player's opponent doesn't have hills to put his shooting units on (for whatever reason) or doesn't have any gunline to begin with, then SM are easily screenable. Then when those SM hit your battle line it's (more often than not) check-out time.

Noone had any real complaints about the way armies got balanced in a new edition in the past.
Things like ASF sound very nice for potentially interested new HE players. GW's intent is to sell their miniatures. That they screw at least a couple different armies' players over with this is only of a minor concern to them.
Balancing, ie slapping ASF on a whole army, utterly smells of "business, business, business". It had never been this way in the past to such an extent.
Is it right for them to do so? Yeah, they are a company after all, trying to make as much profit as possible. But it's disheartening to people (like me) who spent thousands of € on two fully sized armies which got major problems now against their "new invention" of an army.

Can i theoredically win against HE with my DE? Sure.
What's most likely best for this? Gunlines/"Need for speed"-style chariot madness.
Do i like playing with those? I ******* hate it.
But should i bring a "fluffy" (lil bit of everything) army and expect to have a real chance at winning? Not really.

An army "entering the arena" with its new intended balance isn't a problem by itself. But when armies (like my DE's) have to go to such extremes to match that "balance" it quickly tends to become one.

Now i'm not standing here playing the "pity me-card", but when it comes to ASF and its effect on opposing armies, i don't feal any sympathy for GW right about now.

smileyface
16-11-2007, 17:28
Dude... the topic is way over there *looks into the distance*


then SM are easily screenable.

What with? Seriously, screening using the cheapest thing in the HE book is not a brilliant proposition... we don't have goblins.


Noone had any real complaints about the way armies got balanced in a new edition in the past.

Dude, seriously, were you awake? There were complaints all over this and every other board for just about every change ever made to every GW game. People have complained on the internet about every army book and every 40K codex since the internet appeared. Before that they complained in real life.


GW's intent is to sell their miniatures. That they screw at least a couple different armies' players over with this is only of a minor concern to them.

Good line. I don't know if you really believe it - hyperbole is easy online. However, if you do really honestly believe it, then the only way to win is not to play. Sell your armies, put the money towards something useful, and walk away.
That's not a request or anything, just my best attempt at good advice.


It had never been this way in the past to such an extent.

That gets said every time too... along with "Eee, I remember when it were three rhino's for a fiver, and you could put a defense laser on one of them!"


Is it right for them to do so? Yeah, they are a company after all, trying to make as much profit as possible. But it's disheartening to people (like me) who spent thousands of on two fully sized armies which got major problems now against their "new invention" of an army.

Morality and business tend not to be in the same plane... but I'd go with a "no" to your first question.
Personally, I always buy second hand, because the new prices are just too much. Also, the depreciation is less.


Can i theoredically win against HE with my DE? Sure.
What's most likely best for this? Gunlines/"Need for speed"-style chariot madness.
Do i like playing with those? I ******* hate it.
But should i bring a "fluffy" (lil bit of everything) army and expect to have a real chance at winning? Not really.

The gunline/chariot madness/not an army DE army styles aren't just your best bet vs HE, they're the only DE builds I've seen in the last two years that didn't get massacred. The 'fluffy' army hasn't had a look-in for quite a while. Blaming that on the HE book is counterproductive... in fact, the new HE book might be good for DE, because the first thing they will look for to compare new DE with is new HE.

Andyroo
17-11-2007, 10:29
Can i theoredically win against HE with my DE? Sure.
What's most likely best for this? Gunlines/"Need for speed"-style chariot madness.
Do i like playing with those? I ******* hate it.

This is exactly the same as it was in the 6th ed HE book. To have a chance to win against anything you either needed the All Cav or Seer council cookie cutter lists.
This being because HE infantry was pathetic.

I agree in that I think ASF is a little too far. But something was needed to fix them, and it needed to be more than dropping points values, or raising stats. Even higher WS or Initiative? Pointless.

Personally I think "Always striking in I order, regardless of chargers" would've been the way to go. But then O&G, OK and whatnot would still be striking after them.
Maybe something similar to 40k's Catalyst power for nids? Chargers go first as normal, but any HEs killed still get their attacks back?
Still means there is an impetus to charge, even if its just to get more attacks in before stuff starts to die.
Actually considering houseruling SoA into something a bit more managable at our club, if I can find something that works.

smith3030
17-11-2007, 15:07
[QUOTE=.
Actually considering houseruling SoA into something a bit more managable at our club, if I can find something that works.[/QUOTE]

:eyebrows:C'mon? Seriously? That sounds like a bit much. I'm beginning to think very few of the SOA detractors have actually played against the new rule. It sounds way worse than it is. I feel the rule effectively justifies the points cost of each unit and at the same time encourages people to do something other than an all cav force. I hope to see lots of shiny blocks of spearmen in the near future!

Heretic Burner
17-11-2007, 18:24
No, it doesn't souind worse than it is, it actually is that powerful. A house rule is entirely appropriate. Always strike in I order isn't helpful because, while it helps such armies as DE, it still leaves armies like OK and O&G completely wrecked. Best to drop the whole idea and start again.

Obviously Grinloc's concerns are completely valid, if the vast majority of an army book's units are completely non-viable against HE then its time to rethink how powerful HE are. General lists are simply spanked by HE, they just don't have the tools to compete. There is no reason why DE should be forced to take a cavalry, magic heavy force to have any chance of winning - their other units should be viable in their own right. The same is clear for O&G. Or OK. Or any other army.

It is time to house rule HE. It isn't even that far off a precedent for GW to "house rule", they've certainly done it with Thorek. It is mind boggling that it is so obviously necessary for such a recent book however. This should have been caught long before.

smith3030
17-11-2007, 18:34
A house rule is totally over reacting. I have played with high elves and have played against high elves using the new rules and have found it to be fair. I'll admit its a nice advantage but every army has its own advantages, its own strengths and weeknesses. Although I do think that dark elves will suffer against high elves until they get their new book.

Before the new book infantry heavy HE armies were weak. Now they are competitive. I speak from experience: SoA sounds worse than it is!

Treadhead_1st
17-11-2007, 22:22
I've played about 6 games so far - and ASF is in no way as broken as people think it is.

Spearmen are effective at taking a charge - but if the enemy doesn't suffer too much damage, then you get spanked around by enemies with higher strength, higher toughness or better saves (not necessarily all 3 on a single model, mind).

On the charge, they aren't as good - they are just as effective as other races' spearmen - they just have an extra rank of attacks, which, at Str 3, doesn't contribute much.

It is a huge advantage on the Elite troops though - and it's supposed to be. It means the very expensive Elite troops don't get cut through by anything that charges them. But the Spearmen do, Cavalry sucks if charged, chariots fall apart and the Elves die like flies to shooting.

What's the big deal?

Yes, DE will be weak, until the Summer when they come out. Bet you will be whining about how broken they will be then (OMG! They can beat High Elves! RUN!).

I've played Empire, Dwarfs, Lizzies, Beasts of Chaos, Bretonnia and Orcs & Goblins - it's been a close-run fight at all times, ASF generally made little difference, apart from against Goblins (and who really needed a hand against them anyway?).

Seriously, if you think ASF neuters charging, take a hit from 6 Grail Knights, led by a Lord, then see how many Elves you have left.

ASF and the points break has made the Infantry effective - they stil lfall to shooting and get walked over by anything stronger/tougher/better armoured like before, but stand a good chance at whacking the (cheaper) Empire Spearmen, etc, into the ground. but then the Empire handguns take out so many on the way in, it's balanced.

Just my thoguhts from having played some games. I used to play Empire and Tomb Kings - and the Elves are no more "cheesey" than any others (You could have formations of chariots, and troops that all cause Fear, who shooting casualties can be replaced, and be magically teleported quickly across the board with the Tomb Kings. Almost makes the Elves look tame - extreme example, yes, but proves a point - any army can be seen as "cheesey" based on the ability of a few units).

Finnigan2004
17-11-2007, 23:16
This is exactly the same as it was in the 6th ed HE book. To have a chance to win against anything you either needed the All Cav or Seer council cookie cutter lists.
This being because HE infantry was pathetic.

You do realize that if you take away speed of Asuryan, you will end up having high elf players take all cavalry armies with tons of magic again, right? If my 15 point infantry crumble under a cavalry charge, the answer is pretty clear to me-- get more cavalry. ;) I am pretty sure that the tournament or "hard" lists will be cavalry heavy anyhow, so it probably would not make a difference anyhow. For super expensive units, mobility is too key with or without ASF.

As for the point about dark elves needing to take cavalry, shooting, and magic to win-- they already do against pretty much everyone.

feintstar
18-11-2007, 00:05
I beat High Elves a couple of times now, cos I'm a high elf player.

I did it the first time with a goblin army.

The second time, I did it with a skaven army.

With the HE, I've beaten a Chaos army and a Lizardman army, so I'm noticing a pattern:

HE are the bane of elite combat units. But if you swamp them with units, then you have an interesting game to play.

Grinloc
18-11-2007, 02:10
The local "community of friends" i'm part of don't go out of their way and use any "real" powergaming lists.

It's not something along the lines of using "a lil bit of everything".
We tend to use a variety of units as this tends to make a battle more entertaining and "colorful", while at the same time still tailoring the army lists against specific opponents to an average degree.

Example: Maybe a hydra, sometimes two chariots, warriors, corsairs, executioners, etc.

Such units tend to be useful against pretty much anything, short of gunlines.
But using such a variety of units is kinda pointless for a DE player, since he is required to coordinate flank charges against the HE to even stand an average chance of winning any CC. To remotely make sure to win in CC against them i would need to "lock" one of his units in the front and charge him in the flank, since fleeing would still be an option as a HE player's charge reaction.

So in effect i'm pretty much forced to use "heavy anti HE" army lists, which sometimes could possibly be considered "powergaming" or "cheese" against other armies. These lists also don't have much room in variety and as a consequence of this it makes the battles dull and not enjoyable at all.

To give you an example of this "effect": My brother's mortal chaos army against the cheap bolt thrower gunlines of O&G's.
Using warriors and knights against me was basically commiting "VP suicide", since it was my best option against those extremely tough CC units. So to win a battle he was required to leave those units at home most of the time and after a random number of battles he switched to beasts of chaos.

Now against HE i get a bitter taste of this medicine, making me ignore the majority of my infantry, since i'm essentially forced to outmanouvre him to actually have any real chance of making those flank charges happen at all.
Having a full-time job has its "effects" on the numbers of WHFB battles i can participate in, so until this army book gets released i see no reason for wasting my time playing against HE.

Are the winning odds much better with my O&G's, and now even OK (just for kicks, wanted a 3rd army, others don't appeal at all)? Not much really...

Andyroo
18-11-2007, 09:06
You do realize that if you take away speed of Asuryan, you will end up having high elf players take all cavalry armies with tons of magic again, right? If my 15 point infantry crumble under a cavalry charge, the answer is pretty clear to me-- get more cavalry. ;) I am pretty sure that the tournament or "hard" lists will be cavalry heavy anyhow, so it probably would not make a difference anyhow. For super expensive units, mobility is too key with or without ASF.

As for the point about dark elves needing to take cavalry, shooting, and magic to win-- they already do against pretty much everyone.

I understand that.

Which is why I'm trying to find something that is as good as ASF for infantry, but doesnt mean armies such as Ogre Kingdoms auto-lose against it.
I dont think I'm going to find anything though, funnily enough.



HE are the bane of elite combat units. But if you swamp them with units, then you have an interesting game to play.

I concur, having played 2 decent games with the new Asur now, I'm finding that ASF isnt as rediculous as it seems, but its still very good.
I've played against a very small wood elf army, and a very small lizardmen army.

My elite infantry walked straight through both their counterparts (Large blocks of PG ftw), and the only reason I drew was because both armies had rediculously manueverable, and tough Lord choices, that I just couldnt take down. One being the Sisters of Twilight on their Dragon (taking my Phoenix Guard out of half of the game with their Movement-sapping shot), the other being a Carno-Old Blood, that was annoyingly lucky vs Bolt Thrower rounds.

Finnigan2004
18-11-2007, 12:58
The local "community of friends" i'm part of don't go out of their way and use any "real" powergaming lists.

It's not something along the lines of using "a lil bit of everything".
We tend to use a variety of units as this tends to make a battle more entertaining and "colorful", while at the same time still tailoring the army lists against specific opponents to an average degree.

Example: Maybe a hydra, sometimes two chariots, warriors, corsairs, executioners, etc.

Such units tend to be useful against pretty much anything, short of gunlines.
But using such a variety of units is kinda pointless for a DE player, since he is required to coordinate flank charges against the HE to even stand an average chance of winning any CC. To remotely make sure to win in CC against them i would need to "lock" one of his units in the front and charge him in the flank, since fleeing would still be an option as a HE player's charge reaction.

So in effect i'm pretty much forced to use "heavy anti HE" army lists, which sometimes could possibly be considered "powergaming" or "cheese" against other armies. These lists also don't have much room in variety and as a consequence of this it makes the battles dull and not enjoyable at all.

To give you an example of this "effect": My brother's mortal chaos army against the cheap bolt thrower gunlines of O&G's.
Using warriors and knights against me was basically commiting "VP suicide", since it was my best option against those extremely tough CC units. So to win a battle he was required to leave those units at home most of the time and after a random number of battles he switched to beasts of chaos.

Now against HE i get a bitter taste of this medicine, making me ignore the majority of my infantry, since i'm essentially forced to outmanouvre him to actually have any real chance of making those flank charges happen at all.
Having a full-time job has its "effects" on the numbers of WHFB battles i can participate in, so until this army book gets released i see no reason for wasting my time playing against HE.

Are the winning odds much better with my O&G's, and now even OK (just for kicks, wanted a 3rd army, others don't appeal at all)? Not much really...


A little of your post was hard to read in some parts, but it seems like you claim that your group plays balanced lists. Later you say that you used the cheap orc bolt throwers that made a gunline, which forced your brother to stop playing chaos mortals. Now that the new high elves are out, you can no longer use the orc units that you like, so you can not see any point playing against the high elves. This is making the game less fun for you. Please correct me if any of the summary is wrong, but-- :eyebrows: .

First of all, if the new high elves force a gunline out of a gaming group, all is probably well with them. Second, which unit of expensive trooops is he screening his swordmasters from your boltthrowers with? Finally, being a chaos player too, tell your brother to buy lots of hounds to screen and load up on knights the next time someone tries to gunline him. Painting his knights blue or red will really give the gunline player something to think about, and if the guy keeps bringing a gunline, tell him to put a blue knight on a chaos dragon. Pretty soon his opponents will leave the gunline at home, and he can go back to fluffy lists that use moderate units that he likes ;).

In all seriousness though, give it some time and look for some new strategies. The book is new, and the reports from most (but not all) people who have played against it are that it seems balanced. When people figure out what are the optimum strategies for and against high elves, we will know for sure if the book is balanced. Just do not buy into the hysteria yet would be my advice, although obviously you can do as you choose.

Grinloc
18-11-2007, 14:36
Sorry to say this, Finnigan, but your summary is completely wrong.

I'm very rarely playing with O&G's nowadays.
The example of O&G's "gunlines" against mortal chaos was ment to illustrate the dynamics an opposing army has on a player's unit choices.

When not using those bolt throwers i had a really rough time against those heavily armored elite units.

But i'm playing with DE's now and i'm in the mortal chaos player's shoes.
Against HE most of my infantry units tend to get slaughtered in a frontal confrontation. So to make those flank charges happen i need fast units and my best bet would be to "lock" the HE in combat somehow before trying to acheive this. Otherwise the HE player will decide to flee from a combined charge, as any other player would.

But this isn't likely to happen when i can't "lock" the opposing unit first due to infantry getting its a** kicked before i even get the chance for a flank charge.

My earlier post has nothing to do with O&G's against HE, but with DE instead.

Player of any other army:
If i charge that unit, defeating it, and screw up my LD check for not wanting to persue, what would be the most likely outcome?
If i let that opposing unit charge my infantry, instead of attempting a charge myself so i don't get into a disadvantagous position in the process, will i be able to hold?

HE player:
It's my movement phase now and those two opposing units obviously got brought into position for a combined front and flank charge. Since i don't rely on the charge anymore with my infantry what's probably best to do now? I could either retreat a lil out of their way or make a minor turn manouvre so both opposing units can't charge me in the flank. In the process the opposing player won't attempt a frontal charge with either of his units since i will most likely defeat him in the process.

Not relying on the charge for attacking first has its fatal effects on the movement phase. DE and HE were pretty much equal in unit manouverability before, but today due to ASF the HE player's units get quite a noticable movement advantage over my dark cousins, an advantage which often enough tends to be horrifically hard to overcome against experienced players.

My solution as of today is denying the HE player any CC situations, something which isn't easily done since HE units aren't slow at all, unless i use a close to "all-dark riders/chariots/RBT/rxb" army list.

Finnigan2004
18-11-2007, 15:18
Your dark elves will certainly suffer against the new high elves, if you go infantry heavy. That was to be expected, however, until they get their redo. Try your orcs and goblins for a change maybe. I am not so sure about your analysis of the high elf player's movement phase though, with orcs and goblins there appear to be units that can take on the high elf infantry. The key is to use your numbers (and you are doing something wrong if you don't have an advantage here) to overwhelm him. You also need some shooting to force his expensive units into close combat, but if you used an orc and goblin gunline, you have you probably have this covered with the models in your collection. Adding goblin fanatics would probably help, if your opponent is using infantry.

As to the summary, I think the most important point that I was making is that you seem to be missing the fact that when you used a somewhat unsporting army, your opponent adjusted his tactics rather than refusing to play against you because of a bad matchup. Your tactics incorporated a gunline to deal with tough units, and he in turn had to adjust his choices. I suppose that I just think there might be a lesson to be learned there for all of us.

Personally, I know that when I play high elf infantry I won't roll them like was possible in the past. I will simply have to adjust my thinking. The frontal charge with a faster unit should not be the be all and end all of warhammer tactics, as it too often is now.

P.S.. If the response comes off strong, it is not really intended to. I just think we need to play a few games with the new book, see how strong the stuff really is, develop some new tactics, and then if there is a problem start talking about not playing with the high elves or house rules, etc.. They are a strong list (I think), but now they are just one strong list among many and they require most of us to rethink old strategies-- which is probably a good thing.

One other thing that I forgot is that you might want to stop allowing people to tailor lists, if the new high elves are a huge concern. I'm not certain yet, but I suspect this will favor the high elves. One of the major weaknesses of the list is that it can do many different things, but can not do everything due to points costs. If people tailor lists between games, this will probably make them even stronger. Just a thought though, and I can not back it up through experience yet.

Tempest Dust
19-11-2007, 09:34
Try screening your Swordmasters with a small squadron of Silver Helms or two. These could also be used to charge down any gunline units with minimal risks for themselves (provided that they have shields, for a 2+ save)...

Fraggzy
21-11-2007, 09:41
i would go for two blocks of 20 swordmansters and put some whitelions or spearmen in front to protect them, and then have some treathening calvary to roll up the flanks and make a more threathening target than the swordmasters

sainthale1988
21-11-2007, 10:06
fraggzy: how many points is that? think about it.
SoA is not broken, played with and against it all it has done in our little group is make people think a little more about trying to get into advantagious combats, leading to better more dynamic games!
to protect swordsmasters i'm planning on A:shooting back with reaperbolt throwers and archers + magic, then whacking sheild of saphray on them.
HE ARE NOT BROKEN!!!! they are a very balanced army in terms of points (except whitelion 15pts WTF!) as has already been pointed out do well against other elite armies, but can be swamped.
also it is just a game.......

Amornar
21-11-2007, 13:25
Seems like the whole point to this thread was lost long ago....